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[JovankaB]

The perks I proposed before cover mostly aiming gunslingers (the second one is universal, but it's really only useful if you want 1 ST .223 build without drugs). Fast shooters who use signle guns are quite terrible, so they need something stronger IMHO. Here is a proposition how to boost fast shooter gunslingers:

Just look at the fast shooter trait, isn't that obvious?



Akimbo gunslinger: put 2 pistols in both item slots and you can shoot without aiming with 2 pistols from both hands at once with -40% penalty to hit (and additional usual -40% penalty if you have one hander trait, because you use both hands!). You have to reload each gun separatly when they are empty.

Hits for both pistols are rolled separatly, so you can hit with 1 weapon, both or miss with both, do critical/critical miss with both, with one or no criticals at all and with different damage for each pistol. You can't shoot at 2 different targets of course and if you have any hand crippled the mode isn't available.

From interface point of view, if you have this perk and pistols are in both hands, another attack mode "akimbo" appears (so there is single/single aimed/akimbo/reload). When you shoot with any of pistols with akimbo mode, you actually shoot twice - from both item slots. Pretty simple.

[Wallace]

I was actually thinking about option/perk allowing you fire second pistol for 1-2 AP more than the first (1 AP if both pistols have same AP requirement 2 if they differ by one AP)

F.E.: You have 2 pistols (10mm or 14mm or whatever fof such AP req.)
You fire your right pistol for 3 AP then left for 1 AP then right again for 3 and left for 1 AP yet again

Example 2: Right hand - 14mm pistol, Left - 223 pistol
Right-3AP, Left-2AP, R-3AP, L-2AP

But it'd be great with fastshot

Example 3: 2 10mm pistols with fastshot and BRoF
R-2AP, L-1AP, R-2AP, L-1AP... and so on...

Every second "discount shot" needs to be fired into the same target (that would need automatic hand switch option in RT however)

[pistacja]

Shooting two guns at the same time is only valid if you are in a Hollywood film (or the matrix):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_338130&src_vid=tjBbzJ40akU&v=z7aao6JKJQ4

The real thing you can do is called "double tap" (two rapid shots at one target, kind of a 2 shot manual burst):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbg2s2bfjhw

So if a normal shot from a pistol is 4 ap, then double tap would be 7 ap for two shots,
with brof a pistol shot is 3 ap so a double tap would be 5 ap for two shots,
with brof and fast shot a pistol shot is 2 ap, so a double tap would be 3 ap for two shots.
In short the ap cost of this move would be (2x cost of firing) -1.

You should be able to do both aimed an unaimed shots with double tap. 

[JovankaB]

Shooting two guns at the same time is only valid if you are in a Hollywood film (or the matrix):

Or a computer game. Akimbo style is even on the game graphics, as you can see.
I don't even want to start with things that aren't possible in real world but are in Fallout.

It's in the convention of this game. Fallout is not some realistic SWAT team shooter.
If it was, your argument would be valid. But it's not.

[Wallace]

Shooting two guns at the same time is only valid if you are in a Hollywood film (or the matrix):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_338130&src_vid=tjBbzJ40akU&v=z7aao6JKJQ4

Such short film only displays that hardcore crafter (2 guys from Mythbusters) cannot shoot very well...
Crafters shoot bad in RL and FO... Whaddya know!

O course it isnt easy so for second shot from other hand may be penalized

[Surf]

Please no retarded dual wielding in Fallout...

[Izual]

Fast shooters who use signle guns are quite terrible, so they need something stronger IMHO.

AP ammo for needle pistol. I want my Pistolero back

[Wallace]

Please no retarded dual wielding in Fallout...

Retarded?! ...would be not using both of your hands for your own benefit whenever you can... especially combat. Especiall in game where such thing are more possible than in RL

[JovankaB]

I have another idea - instead of -40% penalty to hit the minimum strength of both pistols could be combined.

So if fast shooter dual wielded mausers, it would work like both of them had minimum strenth 6.
If you dual wielded 223 pistol in one hand and 14mm gun in the other, it would work like they had minimum strength 9.

It would mean a character with ST = 5 would have -20% penalty in the first example and -80% in the second.
So you would have to be pretty close to shoot like this with good pistols.

AP ammo for needle pistol. I want my Pistolero back

I was thinking about it, but there were many proposals about needler ammo already (bring back AP, poison darts etc) so I didn't feel like repeating this make sense. Personally instead of simple AP ammo I would prefer a large number of different dart types that would be about as rare as gauss ammo (as a treasure in some abandoned hospital special location or somthing similar). That could be:
- AP needle - just AP ammo
- Tranquilizer - damage/2, you could knock enemies out with this if they failed both EN roll and LK roll. It should also allow enslave.
- Poisoned needle - damage/2, just a poison, but potent enough to kill you in like 3 real minutes without any healing
- Radiated needle - damage/2, 10 points of radiation on hit

[Wallace]

I have another idea - instead of -40% penalty to hit the minimum strength of both pistols would be combined.

So if fast shooter dual wielded mausers, it would work like both of them had minimum strenth 6.
If you dual wielded 223 pistol in one hand and 14mm gun in the other, it would work like they had minimum strength 9.

It would mean a character with ST = 5 would have -20% penalty in the first example and -80% in the second.
So you would have to be pretty close to shoot like this with good pistols.

I don't see much sense in such mechanics... I'd still be after fixed to hit penalty values...
Considerable penalty for second hand wil make the ability of shooting from both hands only applicable in fairly close combat like up to 20 hexes

[JovankaB]

Yea but it would make my another idea for gunslinger perk I posted before - additional pistol handling perk - more useful

You could create a fast shooter build with psycho, buffout, both weapon handling and pistol handling which wouldn't have penalty when wielding two 223 pistols with only 3 ST.
This build would have 90% chance to do 50-60 damage / dual shot at range of 30 hex (assuming enemy has no armor).
With fast shooter and BROF and 12 APs that's would be up to 240 damage / turn.
Of course next turn you would have to spend 4 APs to reload both pistols.

What is nice with this idea IMO is that you would be also wearing 2 times more expensive weapon in some sense

[Wallace]

Just change that other perk's effect into reduction of that fixed to hit penalty for other hand and voila!

[Nice_Boat]

Shooting two guns at the same time is only valid if you are in a Hollywood film (or the matrix):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_338130&src_vid=tjBbzJ40akU&v=z7aao6JKJQ4

Well, technically speaking you could fire two handguns at a single target with some accuracy if you just held them real close to each other, used the sights on a weapon held in the dominant hand and aligned the weapon in the offhand so that the barrels are more or less in line with each other. But yeah, it's a gimmick more than anything else and when done right doesn't even look like the movie stuff.

The real thing you can do is called "double tap" (two rapid shots at one target, kind of a 2 shot manual burst):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbg2s2bfjhw

So if a normal shot from a pistol is 4 ap, then double tap would be 7 ap for two shots,
with brof a pistol shot is 3 ap so a double tap would be 5 ap for two shots,
with brof and fast shot a pistol shot is 2 ap, so a double tap would be 3 ap for two shots.
In short the ap cost of this move would be (2x cost of firing) -1.

You should be able to do both aimed an unaimed shots with double tap.

Double tap is not really a burst or a shooting technique, it's a tactical concept originating from the fact that a single hit from a pistol round is likely not to disable a human target. What really happens during a double tap is that the shooter waits for the recoil of the first round fired to finish and then immediately follows up with another shot when his sights realign - so basically you could empty the entire magazine with a 15-tap or something like that.

Anyway, the basic problem with Fallout mechanics realism-wise is the fact that a shot is 5-6ish in terms of AP, which equals to running 12 meters (assuming a hex is 2m wide), which equals to 3 reloads... it's just totally absurd and impossible to fix without redesigning the whole thing, so I think that any realism-based argument is invalid to begin with. If you agree on that (and it's pretty hard not to when you think about it, really) it all comes down to stuff like style and taste... and since there's no dual-wielding animations and no such thing in the original game or post-apo art in general I'd say it's a pretty bad idea. Flashy gunslinging tricks simply don't seem to go well with the theme of survival in a messed up world where even paramilitary organizations like BoS wouldn't really want to waste precious ammo, so why bother? It'd just be another thing ruining the immersion for all the purists out there and they seem to form a pretty big part of the community.

[Crazy]

Flashy gunslinging tricks simply don't seem to go well with the theme of survival in a messed up world where even paramilitary organizations like BoS wouldn't really want to waste precious ammo

What, they don't empty their miniguns and throw rocket anymore on any scorpions that comes across their path?

On topic anyway: maybe a special "gunslinger" perk that allow to shoot 2/3 bullets with the corresponding AP cost, but only one animation. Would be probably easier and make it kinda viable.

[Nice_Boat]

What, they don't empty their miniguns and throw rocket anymore on any scorpions that comes across their path?

Of course they do, but then again it's one of those gamey things that are somewhat at odds with lore, because most of their dialogue reinforces the fact that they treasure every single piece of military hardware they can get their hands on and generally avoid open conflict to conserve their resources