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[avv]

But the thing is, if minigun can run sg bursters will remain pointless apart from sneak p90 burster with silent death. If that build even proves to be viable. 

What comes to lsw and m60 being forced to walk (and maybe miniguns), wouldn't it be better that instead of needing to equip and unequip every time they want to run it would be automatic? So when bg player chooses to run, he starts to run but when he stops, he loses 3 ap (1 if quick pockets, would make it actually viable choice) and there's this equip animation. But if he walked, there wouldn't be any delay animation or -aps.

Otherwise we're going to see player-made autoscripts for running bgs that won't be shared with everyone.

[italian moustache]

what? -3ap at begin? this is insane! so now with out brof i had to spend 10ap for 1shot? good way of thinking, and to use one gun i have to take 1usless perk? just make lsw and m60 runable...problem solved

[avv]

what? -3ap at begin? this is insane! so now with out brof i had to spend 10ap for 1shot? good way of thinking, and to use one gun i have to take 1usless perk?

But it takes -3ap to equip the gun anyway after putting it away so you can run. No difference, you just don't need to perform the inventory actions manually.

just make lsw and m60 runable...problem solved

Then what's your solution to make sg burst viable?

[italian moustache]

lsw/m60 was allways only for sneakers and for lsw critters. i dont see point of making 2 quite good bg guns piece of shit or tb weapon. improve sg..but sg weapons allways will be weaker than bg. you cant make bigger hole with magnum gun than with m2 browning

my idea..improve xl7e to 10bullets per burst and dealed damage, increase range 35-42.
sg have good assault but i dont know why devs make it piece of shit.

[T-888]

If avenger is so overpowered what about making it walk like lsw?

Already suggested.

Combat

-Is more logical that person would be unable to run, while carryin a minigun, rather than light support weapon, these being light machine gun and all, not a super large gun. M60 on the other hand, is much larger weapon ,nearly on same scale as minigun may be, so it is fair enough that this would be walk limited.

It's fine with me , but the only thing i want to add the character can't run with minigun only if the minigun is in active handslot , otherwise it will be a stupid equip and re-equip play.

lsw/m60 was allways only for sneakers and for lsw critters

Not really , lsw does average damage without BRD perks so you can take other utilities by using that weapon , that way making different builds.

my idea..improve xl7e to 10bullets per burst and dealed damage, increase range 35-42.
sg have good assault but i dont know why devs make it piece of shit.

FNAL and XL7 are already boosted in CBT.

[italian moustache]

t888 yes yes. you know the best. you should be dev or ultra super duper dev! what would we poor nubs do with out your wisdom? >facepalm< xl7e is booseted? to 20bullets in mag? and 8bullets per burst? you can shoot only 2.5bust from 1 mag. increase mag cap and damage and give us bac lsw and m60.

[avv]

lsw/m60 was allways only for sneakers and for lsw critters. i dont see point of making 2 quite good bg buns piece of shit or tb weapon. improve sg..but sg weapons allways will be weaker than bg. you cant make bigger hole with magnum gun than with m2 browning

Yes but sg can rationally be more agile. But how to be more agile when everyone runs equally fast and shoots equally fast? The game tries to compensate this by having sg to shoot with -1 ap faster and require less str to use. In exchange it has less range and does less damage making sg just plainly worse. One could say bg is also more expensive so it deserves to be better, but that's hardly the case when p90 and pancor are actually pretty hard to get in large ammounts. They can't even be farmed.

my idea..improve xl7e to 10bullets per burst and dealed damage, increase range 35-42.
sg have good assault but i dont know why devs make it piece of shit.

Yes you can up the damage and range but if you toggle those you will just get situations where sg is either better or worse than bg. 2 hard factors is just too little to have any other conclusion than better or worse and that's what's the problem with sg vs bg. Both are based on pure damage, so the one that does more damage is simply better. Sg tries to compensate with being more lightweight to use, but fails.
 
Why snipers and rockets will still be used despite the awesome damage output of miniguns is that they have other factors than just range and damage. Snipers have crit effects and rocket has knockback aoe. SG burst needs something similar to stand out.

FNAL and XL7 are already boosted in CBT.

And they still suck compared to minigun. One could say "you don't have to compare them to minigun" but then the answer is: yes I do because they are used in excactly the same way as minigun.

It's fine with me , but the only thing i want to add the character can't run with minigun only if the minigun is in active handslot , otherwise it will be a stupid equip and re-equip play.

That's why it'd help to have automatic unequip and equip when the gun is wielded.

[italian moustache]

 SG burst needs something similar to stand out.
<<<well sg req less str,ap and are cheaper..it isnt enought? sg have snipers and bg...? we had bozars but devs took it away ;/
bg guns are more heavy and they needed more ammo so it is additional bonus weight...well bg range is 30-40 and sg 40-50...so what you want p90 with damage of mini and it can shoot 2times quicker and it has faster animation

[T-888]

t888 yes yes. you know the best. you should be dev or ultra super duper dev! what would we poor nubs do with out your wisdom? >facepalm< xl7e is booseted? to 20bullets in mag? and 8bullets per burst? you can shoot only 2.5bust from 1 mag. increase mag cap and damage and give us bac lsw and m60.

Listen kid , you might learn something.

This is reported by me , they have wrong values boosted in CBT and haven't been fixed yet.
FN_FAL burst 14-22 , single shot 19-26
FN_FAL HPFA burst 11-22 , single shot 22-30
XL70E3 burst 12-19 , single shot 18-29

So you have no right to judge how good they are if haven't got the chance to test them.

Why do people still participate in forum section if they clearly don't know what the fuck is going on ?

And they still suck compared to minigun. One could say "you don't have to compare them to minigun" but then the answer is: yes I do because they are used in excactly the same way as minigun.

That's why it'd help to have automatic unequip and equip when the gun is wielded.

If minigun would be walk only in active handslot there is no need for automatic anything.

So how do you know they will still suck ?

Previously sg rifles lacked only damage witch is boosted now , will be fixed. If minigun will be walk only , maybe sg will stand out as more versatile weapons with arguably good damage , as light assault rifles , easier to obtain , with less requirements for weapon management , that includes the -1 ap to burst and no need for brd to be efficient. Nothing is for sure , we just need to wait wipe and see how things go.

The fact that lsw has hardly lower requirements and less damage it was still widely used weapon , with no need for brd. So your arguments for damage being the main indicator how good the weapon is , is obsolete. hmm , but wait minigun has no range advantage over rifles , at least for the ordinary minigun , witch will be used more widely after wipe.

[avv]

So how do you know they will still suck ?

AR and p90 got buffed in current unwiped version and were they any better? BG still outdamaged them. Like I said: when you got two things that matter which are damage and range, you won't end up in balanced situation. The one that does more damage in the general fighting range 1-30 hex is simply better and there's no point to use the latter. It looks like fnfal and enfield were just brought to same level with AR and p90 and that level is still inferior to bg.

You still remember 30/08/2010 changelog? Here's part of it:

- Weapon changes:
  * 10mm Pistol increased to 8-15 damage
  * .223 Pistol increased to 25-30 damage
  * Assault Rifle increased to 14-23 damage, increased to 12 shots per burst and magazine increased to hold the same number of bursts in normal and extended.
  * 7.62mm Ammo increased to 12/10 damage mod
  * 10mm JHP DR increased to +27
  * FN FAL increased to 14-22 damage
  * Combat Shotgun increased to 20-28 damage
  * H&K CAWs increased to 6 shots per burst, magazine increased to 18
  * Jackhammer increased to 20-31 damage, magazine increased to 15
  * 10mm SMG increased to 8-15 damage
  * p90c increased to 13-19 damage
  * Tommy Gun increased to 12 shots per burst, magazine increased to 60
  * Grease Gun increased to 12 shots per burst, magazine increased to 48

So as you can see, many sg burst weapons (not enfield or fnfal) got damage buff but all those guns are either completely rubbish or only somewhat useful in pvp.

[T-888]

AR and p90 got buffed in current unwiped version and were they any better? BG still outdamaged them. Like I said: when you got two things that matter which are damage and range, you won't end up in balanced situation. The one that does more damage in the general fighting range 1-30 hex is simply better and there's no point to use the latter.

It looks like fnfal and enfield were just brought to same level with AR and p90 and that level is still inferior to bg.

So as you can see, many sg burst weapons (not enfield or fnfal) got damage buff but all those guns are either completely rubbish or only somewhat useful in pvp.

Yes they got damage buff that wasn't enough , now they are increasing the damage furthermore.

Read my previous post again , range and damage are not the only factors for how good the weapon can be , different weapons with lower requirements allows you to make builds with other utilities , just like the lsw allowed this season or p90 witch was used enough , maybe not in TC where RL clearly dominates , but fuck RL will always dominate.



If SG rifles will have somewhat decent damage , they may prove very viable combat characters , as i said lower requirements allow space for other utilities.

won't show any other builds , otherwise nubs will copy paste all.

[avv]

Read my previous post again , range and damage are not the only factors for how good the weapon can be , different weapons with lower requirements allows you to make builds with other utilities , just like the lsw allowed this season

Yeah but the requirement difference between minigun and lsw is a bit more steep than sg and bg.
LSW vs minigun tradeoff is 1str and 2-3 perks. Used to be also 5 points of luck, which is really something. I think the current nonwiped version is more balanced between mg and lsw than it is in cbt.
BG vs SG tradeoff is 1-3 STR and 1ap per shot. That's not really good tradeoff for the smaller damage, you can maybe squeeze one extra perk because not needing weapon handling and easier 2x burst but it simply isn't good enough.
While lsw can for example become crit or tank build with the perks slots it takes to make minigunner, sg just underperforms. p90 is the minigunner of sg and pancor is the lsw due to not needing brd. But avenger gets massive bonus from brd compared to p90, doesn't really help that p90 shoots faster. Lsw can onehex, has longer range and shoots better ammo than pancor. However since lsw can't run now, it might be balanced vs pancor. It's just minigun that could be breaking the balance.

[T-888]

Yeah but the requirement difference between minigun and lsw is a bit more steep than sg and bg.
LSW vs minigun tradeoff is 1str and 2-3 perks. Used to be also 5 points of luck, which is really something. I think the current nonwiped version is more balanced between mg and lsw than it is in cbt.

If minigun will be walk only and lsw will be able to run , then i think it's a huge difference.

BG vs SG tradeoff is 1-3 STR and 1ap per shot. That's not really good tradeoff for the smaller damage, you can maybe squeeze one extra perk because not needing weapon handling and easier 2x burst but it simply isn't good enough.

You can squeeze in another perk + the -1 ap to shoot allows you to make 2x instant burst without the need of bonus rate of fire perk , so that is already 2 perks man + compared to it it's light + extra special points , easily obtainable , you will be able to run with it. Seems like very decent tradeoffs compared for the lowered damage , since you won't be able to go 1 hex with a minigun anymore.

Well easily obtainable and light weight are not the main indicators why the weapon is good , but still it does mean those weapons have some kind of advantage. For example you go in a team fight with two FN_FAL's , since their fucking easy to find and get , just switch weapon slots when you need to reload players do that with rocket launchers since their cheap and effective , but no one will bring two miniguns or m60/lsw in inventory , since their heavy (not all builds allow that)and much more expensive to loose.

While lsw can for example become crit or tank build with the perks slots it takes to make minigunner, sg just underperforms.

Try the new FCP , SG can as easily become a crit or a tank build. Under performs only in raw damage.

p90 is the minigunner of sg and pancor is the lsw due to not needing brd. But avenger gets massive bonus from brd compared to p90, doesn't really help that p90 shoots faster. Lsw can onehex, has longer range and shoots better ammo than pancor. However since lsw can't run now, it might be balanced vs pancor. It's just minigun that could be breaking the balance.

Well you know that p90 could be the ultimate weapon for sneakers , hard to say will it see the light at last. I was the first to make a p90/silent death build and tested the features to it's maximum potential. Pancor is just shit.
 
I just think rifles could compete and should with BG weapons next season , since SG gets beefed up in general again.

lsw and m60 won't stay walk only , i am sure it will be changed as it is in known issues thread reported as something to be fixed

so maybe we should make some suggestion in cbt forum section , to increase the range of SG rifles. Wouldn't you want those weapons to be viable in combat ? I am afraid that they will still be crap weapons because of rocket launcher superior range , i don't think minigun will be the problem

[manero]

Why BALANCE is always related with bg nerf? 

[Wichura]

Why BALANCE is always related with bg nerf? 

How to balance game weapons in few simple steps:
1) read some random whine on forum
2) nerf BG
3) done