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Author Topic: I want to use cover!  (Read 2471 times)

I want to use cover!
« on: October 11, 2011, 04:54:37 pm »

Warning le wall of text ahead.


 I am aware that this is not the first suggestion about implementing some sort of cover system , other topics had polls and there is no doubt that players want this , so i decided to bring this subject up again and maybe there will be something more that other suggestions have missed or didn't mention , you know fulfill the idea.
 I have searched the forum via the " search " feature and found few topics about cover suggestions that inspired me , since it gave me a clear vision how i would like to see the cover system and how it should be , in my opinion , i don't see the harm of sharing it with the community :)

 Cover should be a large part of combat and a big deal when fighting , since it gives you actual " cover " from enemy fire and you could use it to mount weapons on cover you are using , for example a barrel or even a mail box it really doesn't matter since you can mount a minigun on both of these objects , heck even a sniper rifle or a rocket launcher , giving you a steady aim therefore increasing accuracy. Then again it makes sense that your not really standing and you aren't facing an opponent head on , it means you should reload and shoot more rapidly and you would be harder to notice.
 This is some thinking that helps me and you understand what cover actually should provide ingame.

 The action itself " taking cover " should be simple like if you stand near a barrel for a second or two , but you don't gain anything if you just run by it , you gain " cover " it could actually even show up in top left corner of screen. Since taking cover is some sort of action , it should cost like 4 or even half of your current AP. This even gives me an idea for a new perk that actually counters the usage of AP's but that's a different subject i won't touch.

 So i was talking about actually being harder to notice while in cover and i thought for a while how it could work , i came up that you gain a passive sneak skill like the current barrels do , only difference you don't have to  " sneak " to gain the effect. I don't know what the actual numbers would be maybe the same 50 or even 100 it's only an example so don't kill me over it. :)

 Then again as it provides you cover from enemy fire i had to come up with some way how to implement this , this one was a tough nut to crack , but eventually it came to me  ::) . If you provide a flat amount AC , specialized builds with enough perception and weapon skill would just shit on this feature and it would be like your just sitting in an open area , the cover is denied completely witch should be impossible , so instead you decrease the maximum chance to hit by for example 15-25% from incoming fire , could be random , but random is bad so a fixed amount should do the trick.
 Needs some testing anyway , so i guess this is a job for solar , btw i would gladly do it for you if i could ;D

 " Mounting weapons "  and gaining accuracy there are two ways how to implement this and one is better then the other at least i think that. It's possible to give a flat amount of weapon skill like +30 , +40 etc. etc. , but that isn't flexible due to the huge variations of builds and to prevent people making some gauss cover builds ;D or whatever. Instead we can increase the amount of skill by a percentage , it isn't perfect but it is flexible and i think acceptable , nothing ever is perfect but i could prove myself wrong. There could be some sort of formula the more skill points you have the less weapon skill in percentage you gain while in cover. Don't know the actual formula myself , haven't thought about that much.

 Since you mount the weapon it could give you +1 str towards weapon handling , as far as i know weapon handling perk after wipe will give only +2 str if i remember correctly , so it balances out.

 This one is harder to explain but well you have cover and you don't face the enemy head on so you get increased AP regeneration equal as you had +1 AP this allows the rapid firing , using inventory items and reloading costs half the action points.

 Explosive hit's have only a chance to knock you out of cover and deals half damage or 1/3 , and explosive shots don't have any penalty towards accuracy against players in cover.

 Don't get me wrong i don't want a single barrel to give this , there should be all kind of covers , a pile of crates would give better protection than a barrel , tree , mailbox or even a street lamp or even an open door near a building. Cover can be everything. ;)

 Windows in buildings should serve as the best cover , knocked down/out targets shouldn't be visible to outside players if they are using building window cover.

 Players in cover are exceptionally vulnerable to melee/unnarmed attacks.

 Cars can serve as one of the best covers too as they do now.

 It's possible to take cover when you are sneaking.

 Ofcourse you can take cover while in combat.

Short version if you use cover you gain.

1+ str weapon handling
AP regeneration equal to as you have +1 AP.
Half the amount of AP required to reload and use inventory items.
Increased accuracy by a percentage that adapts depending how much skill points the player using cover has.
Decreased maximum chance 15-25% to hit on the player who uses cover.
Explosives shots have only chance to knock you out of cover and deals 1/2 or 1/3 damage.
Players in cover are exceptionally vulnerable to melee/unnarmed attacks.
Gain passive sneak skill.
Cars is cover , as well buildings/windows the best.

I hope i didn't miss something , may have to edit.

yeah i know cover is OP and it should be like that ;D
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 05:23:05 pm by T-888 »
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Re: I want to use cover!
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2011, 05:52:01 pm »

To make such tactical features it would be easier to really start make FOnline based on FT not Fallout, it's like suggest to make RPG from Counterstrike or Quake with dialogues and quests. Because then whole gameplay and game look should be changed, it'll be easier to start make game from scratch on SDK and forget about changing FOnline 2238. You also forgot to say about sitting and lying on ground or getting on roofs to get tactical advantage. Remake JA2 on SDK with FT graphics based on post-apo Arulco? ;p
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Re: I want to use cover!
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2011, 06:11:04 pm »

To make such tactical features it would be easier to really start make FOnline based on FT not Fallout, it's like suggest to make RPG from Counterstrike or Quake with dialogues and quests. Because then whole gameplay and game look should be changed, it'll be easier to start make game from scratch on SDK and forget about changing FOnline 2238. You also forgot to say about sitting and lying on ground or getting on roofs to get tactical advantage. Remake JA2 on SDK with FT graphics based on post-apo Arulco? ;p

I didn't mention lying on ground or getting on roofs because it is impossible to implement with this engine , only when 3D hits.

I only want variation and diversity in combat , if you have a better suggestion well nobody is forcing you to stay quite. I didn't post anything i think is impossible to implement from what i know , if some developer will come and say that's impossible then it will be known and heard from now on , this is the suggestion sub-forum after all.

I would like to see the tactical features as complex as possible , if developers decide to do the cover system simpler then it's their choice i don't make this game , i know it is not easy to implement stuff like this.

Don't post if you have nothing good to say and don't understand this literally.

I've already asked for this to be done. Apparently it is not as easy as just hijacking the sneak mechanic - but hopefully it gets done at some point.

It wouldn't be a DR bonus, it would give them a fixed AC (you're harder to hit in cover).

This is from other cover suggestion topic and as i stated before a fixed AC will be pointless unless the amount is huge.

So yea ravenousrat see i have a reason posting this , not changing some fonline engine or whatever your talking about.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 06:30:19 pm by T-888 »
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skejwen

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Re: I want to use cover!
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2011, 12:09:38 am »

Wanna cover? Go play Gears of War or something similar...
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Re: I want to use cover!
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2011, 01:05:53 am »

Wanna cover? Go play Gears of War or something similar...
Oh come on just because some popular fps games like chest-high-walls mechanics to the extreme doesn't mean it's something horrible and that it came from hell.

Anybody with any sense getting shot at will get the fuck down and behind something, developers of Fallout I'm sure simply weren't able to develop in time/didn't think of it in time for the game, whereas Fallout Tactics showed all the combat tactical potential as a substitute for this lack.
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Re: I want to use cover!
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2011, 03:56:34 am »

Wanna cover? Go play Gears of War or something similar...
Off topic: i guess you've NEVER played Gears of War online, if the game were about take cover and shot, then everybody would stay hided behind a cover and no one would die. Ironically, the best tactic in that game is the swarm. :P

About this suggestion i think that the actual game system was too hard to balance, and it needs many other thinks, change stuff like this will make devs begin from 0. ad thats unaceptable.
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Re: I want to use cover!
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2011, 02:15:02 pm »

While crouching or lying down reduced chance to be hit and increased chance to hit, their main purpose in tactics was to hide completely from any fire. It was also countered by grenades and rockets.

Anyway, there are several features in tactics that you don't have in vanilla fallout, and since fonline is based on vanilla and it's not combat/pvp only it's questionable whether they will ever appear in game. As far as I remember no 2238 developer has any plans for them, not even with 3D (and 3D is not required for it, it would just make it easier to create animations).

Quote
Decreased maximum chance 15-25% to hit on the player who uses cover.
Yeah this is exactly where the game should head - more dice throwing.
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Re: I want to use cover!
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2011, 05:15:32 pm »

Yeah this is exactly where the game should head - more dice throwing.

Exactly not.

AC bonus might make sense but the game don't need more randomness. Let's say 2 dudes are standing behind barrels and have 50% chance to eyes. The other shoots first and misses, his assailant returns fire and hits and scores a good crit. Why did he deserve to hit while the one who shot first didn't? Randomness is bad for game where players risk equipment and put determination and effort in trying to achieve goals.

Crits are random and they are basically the most hated feature in pvp because of the randomness. I want to die because of my own mistakes or the superior skills of the enemy, not because my enemy got lucky.

Instead of ac bonus cover could just give more dt or dr and crit resistance. Screw sense and realism in this case.
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Re: I want to use cover!
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2011, 08:08:09 pm »

Randomness in games simply removes or lowers gap between players strength/skills/etc. and it's good for those who is weak and bad for those who is strong.
If game means testing player's game experience / reflexes / logic thinking, then it shouldn't have any randomness at all. Pure example SC 1/2, also WC3 is good example too, but still it has minor random factor as there exists min/max damage and dodge/critical skills, but it doesn't play improtant role. The only positive side of randomness is to give hope for weaker players to beat stronger players, without randomess they will have 0% to succeed, it means that you can't always relay on your skills and sometimes lose, making playing game for weak players somehow playable, or else they would simply leave.
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Re: I want to use cover!
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2011, 08:24:29 pm »

Randomness in games simply removes or lowers gap between players strength/skills/etc. and it's good for those who is weak and bad for those who is strong.
If game means testing player's game experience / reflexes / logic thinking, then it shouldn't have any randomness at all. Pure example SC 1/2, also WC3 is good example too, but still it has minor random factor as there exists min/max damage and dodge/critical skills, but it doesn't play improtant role. The only positive side of randomness is to give hope for weaker players to beat stronger players, without randomess they will have 0% to succeed, it means that you can't always relay on your skills and sometimes lose, making playing game for weak players somehow playable, or else they would simply leave.

That's what randomness does for sure and competitive pvp doesn't need that. Pvp is about reflexes, strategy, teamwork and logic thinking. All kinds of random stuff will just annoy the pvp-oriented people in the long term.

If this is about helping weaker players, then using cover won't help them because it will help skilled and experienced players more.

Taking cover would be good feature and increase the dimensions of gameplay but if it adds more randomness, it'd also add more frustration in the end.
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Re: I want to use cover!
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2011, 09:22:48 pm »

That's what randomness does for sure and competitive pvp doesn't need that. Pvp is about reflexes, strategy, teamwork and logic thinking. All kinds of random stuff will just annoy the pvp-oriented people in the long term.

If this is about helping weaker players, then using cover won't help them because it will help skilled and experienced players more.

Taking cover would be good feature and increase the dimensions of gameplay but if it adds more randomness, it'd also add more frustration in the end.
Then whole game should be changed, so taking cover has nothing to do with randomness, because there're also crit tables, crit chances, to hit chances, damage spread, bullets hit per burst, encounters, skill checks etc. So who cares about randomness, if everything in game is already random. So it's not a reason. One more or one less random thing in game.
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Re: I want to use cover!
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2011, 09:43:27 pm »

Personally I consider the randomness a positive factor in the game. The surprises were always nice in Fallout when I just scored some instant one shot death there and though it is less fun if you on the receiving end however removing them would be a step away from Fallout just like RT combat even though its fun... personally I want to see stuffs that makes the game closer to Fallout.
Btw there is only one style of combat that would be ok here the tactics like however as it has been mentioned there will be no plan for that and I'm not felling bad about this after all it would need a fresh start too much stuff is there to implement and changes while the normal combat we have from the original game (TB) is totally ok for the game only RT needs fixing a way to make it close to TB I mean making TB perks work in RT like bonus move make actions sequence orientated and etc...
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Re: I want to use cover!
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2011, 11:04:47 pm »

Surely the randomness is what makes it an rpg game, with characters and stats etc? Those stats affect the percentage chances, as a digital equivalent to + or - something on a dice roll. You can easily click on an enemy in turn based, but whether it hits depends on the character's skill points - and though we don't see it, it's effectively done by "digital dice rolling" or randomness. If tactical elements, injuries or perks add or subtract a modifier to this, that's a good thing, surely? You have a 10% or 20% lower chance (for example) to hit an enemy in cover.
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Re: I want to use cover!
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2011, 12:53:53 am »

Hey guys it was sarcasm, you apparently missed that.
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Re: I want to use cover!
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2011, 12:57:59 am »

you know how well sarcasm transfers over the internet... -.-
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