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Author Topic: Visible people in world map.  (Read 2896 times)

zamp

  • Huff 'n puff all you want I ain't falling.
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Visible people in world map.
« on: May 15, 2011, 10:55:02 am »

Now hear me out before shooting the whole idea down.
Here's what I suggest;
You could see other players/npcs/caravans/etc. on the world map as nodes. Small round "static" circles, like the junkyard for example, but the green ring moves based on the owner of that node. (Player moves, so does the node)
Each player would "carry" one node with him. (Even if people are following, this would just increase the visible power of the encounter)
All of the nodes are invisible until the owner of a node (party leader) does a succesfull perception/intelligence/outdoorsman check; the check takes into account both node's owner's SPECIAL and skills. Sneak could be used as a "defensive" skill, to make your node less visible to other players/npcs.
Only nodes inside the scouting area (Scout perk increases area by 1) can be seen (they still need the special/skill check tho).
Vehicles would make you hard to spot but would also negate all skill bonuses. Also someone on foot can't catch someone driving a car but if someone is stupid/clever enough to ram into a player with a car the car is taken with him into the encounter.

If an npc sees an enemy node it will perform an action based on the simple AI rules; merchant parties wont attack deathclaws and will try to run away (move away from the node) but NCR army will attack them (head straight on to the deathclaw node).
Whenever two nodes collide on the world map and one of the node's owner sees the other node both parties enter an encounter (Same as random encounters now, but populated by the nodes owner parties).

Each node has a dynamic stat, Power set to them. Whenever someone spots another node they will do a per/int/outdoors check and decide a power value for the node. When a player hovers over the node on the map he'll see tooltip/message that is the same as succesfull outdoorsman check on random encounter atm.

There would be no random encounters (except special ones I suppose) in the game what so ever anymore. With this system npcs would multiply in the nodes and if the node size is too large (5+ molerats for example) Another node/group is created.
NPCs such as a molerat need to eat something so I assume they would try to find ants and eat them.
There would be some seed zones that would always have a few "hidden" NPCs available so they won't totally run out. Also different types of NPCs tend to stay in their own location unless they run out of food.

Whenever a caravan leaves a town he'll purchase some equipment from the shops and take off. Players could enter the caravan nodes and hitch a ride or raid them. Whenever a player is inside an encounter it stops on the map.
When a caravan reaches it's destination he'll sell off the items.
Basicly this will just shift items back and forth from town to town. The more items/cash the caravan has the more power it has. Although sometimes caravans won't leave if they're underpowered (no slaves/mercs in town) or no friendly towns are nearby.
If a caravan is running low on power it'll replenish it by purchasing mercs. (Removing money & items from caravan and turning them into slaves/mercs based on the town the caravan is in)

Here's an example:

Lets say NCR army (Power 8, 8 people) is in zone 31,29. NCR party leader has high perception and outdoorsman and has the Scout perk (would be useful and not just some shitty perk nobody wants).
There is a Marauder party (Power 3, 3 people) is in zone 32,29.


NCR party leader does a succesfull skill check and spots the marauder node.


NCR party starts to move towards the marauders.


NCR party encounters marauders and as there are no players involved the server does a quick combat calculation and decides on the outcome. (This will reduce server load but still make the world seem dynamic, which it would be with this system)
NCR party has power 8 and all 8 are wearing "high end" gear. Clearly they win.
Marauder party dissappears and NCR party continues with power 7 (one of them was critically shot in the eyes and his head exploded


Example of what player might see when hovering a node.

And here's a mockup of a large area if you could see everything in the map. Nodes are colored different to differentiate NPCs/players. In game they could all be same color since you could easily just mouse over them to see what there is.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 11:10:54 am by zamp »
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avv

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Re: Visible people in world map.
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2011, 11:10:10 am »

The worldmap wasn't designed for multiplayer purposes, forcing such interactivity on it isn't necessarily the best solution.

As much as I hate the worldmap being a safe haven, this would lead to worldmap powerbuilds relentlessly hunting everyone and everything without rest. A beginner player with low level couldn't do anything because he would be chased down and shot instantly. It wouldn't even be that surprising if players camped the respawn square, hunted down and shot everyone who came from there.
Players would adapt to it by alting and metagaming, as usually. Example: high od and PE stuff mule.
If very high outdoorsman, sneak, perception and perks didn't matter so much, it'd be more fair.
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zamp

  • Huff 'n puff all you want I ain't falling.
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Re: Visible people in world map.
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2011, 11:15:33 am »

It wouldn't even be that surprising if players camped the respawn square, hunted down and shot everyone who came from there.

Guarded town control would expand beyond just the town itself. When someone kills a player on the world map and someone (guard, ncr army etc) sees the encounter the aggressor would be flagged pk for a while and the npcs would hunt him down.
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Re: Visible people in world map.
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2011, 01:30:51 pm »

I like this. It's awesome.
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Graf

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Re: Visible people in world map.
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2011, 01:32:35 pm »

Excellent idea, zamp. It just would make the game more convenient, so I don't see why this couldn't be implemented. Though there should be some limits for visibility of other encounters. For example, it should depend on the player's perception and outdoorsman-related perks.

Also, avv is right about low-levels, so they can have some kind of protection against that kind of "tracking" until they reach some level.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 04:56:38 pm by Graf »
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avv

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Re: Visible people in world map.
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2011, 01:38:27 pm »

Guarded town control would expand beyond just the town itself. When someone kills a player on the world map and someone (guard, ncr army etc) sees the encounter the aggressor would be flagged pk for a while and the npcs would hunt him down.

What about unguarded area spawns? For example Redding-Reno spawn has no patrols around.
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Based on evidence collected from various sources by trustworthy attendees it is undisputed veritability that the land ravaged by atomic warfare which caused extreme change of the ecosystem and environmental hazards can be considered unpleasant, rugged and unforgiving.
Re: Visible people in world map.
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2011, 02:43:54 pm »

Very well written suggestion.

I was dreaming about this since I started playing 2238.

Excellent idea, but it would obviously need a lot of work and balancing. Yet it is worth it, in my opinion.

I would love to see more player-to-player encounters on the worldmap (not only in towns as we have now). And it wouldn't need a whole new system, just some small adjustments. Zero amount of interaction with other players while traveling is bad for the gameplay.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 09:13:46 pm by Acid »
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Re: Visible people in world map.
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2011, 02:56:36 pm »

A completely reworked map system similar to Mount & Blade? I like it.

Even better if you included the effect of inventory weight & party size on travel speed that is also in Mount & Blade.

Unfortunately that would still not prevent this scenario:
A scout alt with 10 PE, 300% outdoorsman, a roach, and a radio chasing a player on the world map and then distress calling to a leader alt with a full party of 100% combat builds.

When someone kills a player on the world map and someone (guard, ncr army etc) sees the encounter the aggressor would be flagged pk for a while and the npcs would hunt him down.

It has been discussed before and there are too many variables to consider to let the AI handle wasteland justice. Unless the NPC group was huge this would likely just be used for encounter farming.
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Xarr

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Re: Visible people in world map.
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2011, 04:15:58 pm »

How should this look ingame? Overpower'd Awarness or what? Just keep searching, it isn't needed to change that.
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I used to be a bag of dicks, but then I grew up. I gave many of you guys a hard time, but on the other side I kept myself busy with helping players, and I never gave up on that.

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Re: Visible people in world map.
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2011, 04:19:09 pm »

How should this look ingame? Overpower'd Awarness or what? Just keep searching, it isn't needed to change that.

yes it is needed to change that
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Reiniat

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Re: Visible people in world map.
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2011, 05:27:22 pm »

one of the best suggestions i never seen. it has some problems, but still being realizable
tough actually you can predict the movement of newbs and little guys in the wastes....they always go to mine, go to his little tents all in the left of NCR ot to his cave at the right of NCR or the lvling ground were you find a lot of molerats.....

It is really hard to imlplement and as Avv point it will be alted, like everything else, first of all we need a solution to the alting, and i mean NO ALTING, only two chars by IP, if there are two players in the same IP, sorry youre screwed it sounds unfair, but its needed. just look at it 90% of the suggestions are discarted because alting.
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avv

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Re: Visible people in world map.
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2011, 05:54:46 pm »

It is really hard to imlplement and as Avv point it will be alted, like everything else, first of all we need a solution to the alting, and i mean NO ALTING, only two chars by IP, if there are two players in the same IP, sorry youre screwed it sounds unfair, but its needed. just look at it 90% of the suggestions are discarted because alting.

The problem in this case is that if skills, stats and perks have any effect on how easily you are caught, seen or able to catch others on worldmap it automatically encourages alting and minmaxing.
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Based on evidence collected from various sources by trustworthy attendees it is undisputed veritability that the land ravaged by atomic warfare which caused extreme change of the ecosystem and environmental hazards can be considered unpleasant, rugged and unforgiving.
Re: Visible people in world map.
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2011, 06:02:04 pm »

The problem in this case is that if skills, stats and perks have any effect on how easily you are caught, seen or able to catch others on worldmap it automatically encourages alting and minmaxing.

Then just give everyone equal chances to see encounters , players on WM. Like for example everyone has equal chances to find a gauss pistol nothing affects it , nobody can abuse that. Would still make this game more fun and interactive outside towns.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 06:04:22 pm by T-888 »
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zamp

  • Huff 'n puff all you want I ain't falling.
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Re: Visible people in world map.
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2011, 06:22:13 pm »

Unfortunately that would still not prevent this scenario:
A scout alt with 10 PE, 300% outdoorsman, a roach, and a radio chasing a player on the world map and then distress calling to a leader alt with a full party of 100% combat builds.

Yeah it should need to be limited somehow... For newbies it could be made so that for the first 5 levels you're "totally" invisible, 5% chance of being spotted by others on the map.
After you level up some and hit let's say 10 you'll still have newbie protection / 2, given that you have no skills or special that modify the chance you'd have 50% chance of being spotted.
At level 21 you only have your skills to protected you.

This would at least help newbies get on their feet but it would still allow "exploiting" with alts.

And the fix for exploiting is that everyone has the same chance of spotting others with a minor change based on skills and special. 10 PE, 10 INT, 300 OD, gives only 25% more to the chance of spotting.
Which means that a 10 level player with nothing allotted to OD would have roughly 75% chance of being spotted.
A 10 level player with OD ~100% and PE/INT 5 would have roughly 40% chance of being spotted.
This could be modified to find the sweet spot for how much affect skills and stats have in spotting/defending.

Another fix could be to just make spotting static. The closer you get to someone else the better chance you have at spotting them.
0.2 zone away has 95% chance (almost on top of you)
0.5 zone away has ~50% chance
1 zone away has ~30% chance
2 zones away has 0% chance

And yet another fix would be to use both systems. Basicly better skills/stats just increase the area you can spot people in (also increases chance, since area is linear, further away less chance etc.)

And the fix for camping spawns would be to make the spawns toss you into the map by random (Pick random location at least 5 zones from your death location and inside 15 zones)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 06:24:34 pm by zamp »
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avv

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Re: Visible people in world map.
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2011, 06:24:55 pm »

Then just give everyone equal chances to see encounters , players on WM. Like for example everyone has equal chances to find a gauss pistol nothing affects it , nobody can abuse that. Would still make this game more fun and interactive outside towns.

That's the best alternative. OD, perks and stats could then be used on whatever utilities outside pvp and players.
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Based on evidence collected from various sources by trustworthy attendees it is undisputed veritability that the land ravaged by atomic warfare which caused extreme change of the ecosystem and environmental hazards can be considered unpleasant, rugged and unforgiving.
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