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[Jescri]

To go back on the topic, I think the OBL's death will not resolve the terrorist actions. I think that terrorists actions will be more violent in USA ... why ? Because USA killed one of the terrorist leader, their icon, and now they are celebrating OBL death as the best new of the century without any modesty.
It would be like Terrorist killed Obama, and they were making a great party to celebrate it. I think that USA would air strike all of them, and send all the terrorists family in jail, or in Guantanamo.
So now, terrorist have even more "good" reasons for making attacks.

(and damn, why have them killed him ? I wanted to capture him later to have the gift and be rich !  )

[Slaver Snipe]

You just want to be okay without making other countries suffer? How about defaulting on a massive debt and being saved by the IMF, oh and don't forget the US, which has the most "pull" in the IMF voted to help your country. Guess you DO forget about the good things the US does, when it was YOUR countries fuck up that brought that about. Yes, i read your post it doesn't explain why you dislike us calling ourselves American when it's been going on for more than 200 years, It has nothing to do with us "thinking" we own North and South America or trying to act like we do, you need to learn that child. About your previous posts about all south American countries just want to form strong bonds with each other etc. I doubt colombia or the other nations that receive massive foreign aid from us would agree.

First you bring up Guantanamo then China, two completely different situations please read some more then post a relevant reply.

Of course your country isn't as hated "all" over the world, you are very small on the world stage thus your fuck ups are not put into a spotlight like ours are.

Yes, seems like terrorism doesn't happen in your country.

https://www.privacyinternational.org/article/terrorism-profile-argentina

I would have to say if that could have been avoided by the torture of one person your leader at the time would have done it.

Now with that information if i wanted to be like you and generalize all Argentinians i could say that your terrorist supporting debt defaulting assholes who forget the good of others. Fair? I guess so if you can generalize Americans as you do.

At OP, do you know how many prisoners have even been in Guantanamo? Families of terrorists do not go there.

At BP, Off-topic discussions, perhaps that means not related to game perhaps it means de-railing threads.

[Lizard]

@Eternauta, SlaverSnipe

GTFO my OBL topic with your offtop shitstorm and whatnot. Both of you.

[Lacan]

I'm saddened by one thing : our lilberties have been restricted for 10 years to fight terrorism, and now that the symbol of terrorism is dead, the first thing government (in france at least) does is "enforce more rules and security because there might be revenge actions"... So still less rights to move around as you please, dress as you like, carry what you want, talk to people you want, have religion you want... When is this gonna end ? I want to be able to cary shampoo when i take plane (just an example !

[Y0ssarian]

Tanknet and Jane's Defence Guide. Feasible enough?

Citations, bro? Source? Hardly feasible.

All tanks have hull down capability, it's situational and depends on the terrain and the presence of fortifications. Sloped armor is not a "shitty design" and is still being widely used as it increases relative armor thickness and increases the probability of a ricochet.

If you believe a 120mm round cannot penetrate soviet armor at any slope, angle or distance... well, you might as well spend that excess penetration power by lining up 2 T90s and calling it a day. Metamorphically speaking without any patriotic fanaticism... a very large knife through butter. Balls down (lol) or not. Shitty slopped design, shitty soviet armor. Couldn't prove me wrong otherwise even twisting my words. Care to quote? But anyways in regard to DU ammunition, it's pretty much overkill. Literally. But we're going on a tangent from this initial thread's nature and I no longer wish to discuss with a fail troll that had the nerve to ask for "citations" while giving out wikipedia links. Major dead giveaway. At the university level (lol forums), using wikipedia = perma ban from campus. Troll harder, kid, troll harder.

A Shilka has weaker armor than a BMP. Actually, a BMP can feasibly be destroyed by .50 cal as well, just not from the front.

I can be an anal retentive douchebag, too! Look, this would make be right about two things. Contradicting what you wrote earlier. Fail!

That's Soviet propaganda, never happened in reality.

Author of "The Tin Drum" would say otherwise. Polish soldiers mounting horses agianst tanks. Although being a novel of very satire nature... might as well be a comic fallacy over truth.

... yeah, let's totally defang our militaries so that their tank cannons barely defeat a 30 year old Soviet tank's front armor

Whatever the hell you're smoking please share!. Opting out from DU munitions would hardly "defang" our militaries, but Poland already does pretty good job of that on it's own accord. =}


P.S I take back everything I said about shitty Soviet tank designs with shitty slopped armor. They are wonderful. Soviet tanks were causing more harm to the crews than any enemy ever could. I never seen such a lackluster effort in protecting tank crews. How's your loaders' limbs feeling today? Wasn't aware tanks can be operated without crews.

[Nice_Boat]

Citations, bro? Source? Hardly feasible.

I'm not going to dig into tanknet archives or 8000+ page long "Jane's Armour and Artillery" to prove a troll wrong. That doesn't mean there's no other sources though. So - incoming, take cover.

If you believe a 120mm round cannot penetrate soviet armor at any slope, angle or distance... well, you might as well spend that excess penetration power by lining up 2 T90s and calling it a day. Metamorphically speaking without any patriotic fanaticism... a very large knife through butter. Balls down (lol) or not. Shitty slopped design, shitty soviet armor. Couldn't prove me wrong otherwise even twisting my words. Care to quote? But anyways in regard to DU ammunition, it's pretty much overkill. Literally. But we're going on a tangent from this initial thread's nature and I no longer wish to discuss with a fail troll that had the nerve to ask for "citations" while giving out wikipedia links. Major dead giveaway. At the university level (lol forums), using wikipedia = perma ban from campus. Troll harder, kid, troll harder.

No, it can't even penetrate a Kontakt-5 equipped T-Effin-Seventy-Two, not to mention more resilient designs like T-80U or T-90:

Speaking at a conference on Future Armoured Warfare in London in May, IDR's Pentagon correspondent Leland Ness explained that US tests involved firing trials of Russian-built T-72 tanks fitted with Kontakt 5 explosive reactive armor (ERA). In contrast to the original, or `light', type of ERA which is effective only against shaped charge jets, the `heavy' Kontakt 5 ERA is also effective against the long-rod penetrators of APFSDS (armor-piercing, fin-stabilized, discarding sabot) tank gun projectiles. When fitted to T-72 tanks, the `heavy' ERA made them immune to the DU penetrators of M829 APFSDS, fired by the 120mm guns of US M1 Abrams tanks, which are among the most formidable of current tank gun projectiles.

Source:
http://articles.janes.com/articles/International-Defence-Review-97/IMPENETRABLE-RUSSIAN-TANK-ARMOR-STANDS-UP-TO-EXAMINATION.html

I think it's enough to establish that you're wrong and a bad troll on top of that, so please stop posting now.

I can be an anal retentive douchebag, too! Look, this would make be right about two things. Contradicting what you wrote earlier. Fail!

How does that make me wrong? The BMP-1s front armor is very sharply sloped and thicker than side or rear, so it can't be penetrated even by repeated .50 cal hits and yes, it can barely be penetrated by autocannons. On the sides and the rear it's not sloped at all, so repeated .50 cal hits could result in a penetration. Shilka's armor isn't as effective on any side. Since I was discussing front armor from the beginning, you're quoting out of context which, sadly, yet again proves you as a bad troll.

Author of "The Tin Drum" would say otherwise. Polish soldiers mounting horses agianst tanks. Although being a novel of very satire nature... might as well be a comic fallacy over truth.

I don't care about the author of "The Tin Drum", I care about historical facts. Polish cavalry was equipped with ATGs, learn to read ToE. Besides - you made the claim, it's on your shoulders to prove it. As far as I know the charge at Krojanty is the only instance of an incident involving Polish cavalry and German tanks where the cavalry was presented as charging the tanks with melee weapons, but it was later proven to be a fraud.

Whatever the hell you're smoking please share!. Opting out from DU munitions would hardly "defang" our militaries, but Poland already does pretty good job of that on it's own accord. =}

Opting out from DU munitions would result in using underperforming munitions, which in turn would defang our militaries, yes. Polish military, despite its shortcomings, is still the most capable ex-WP military in the region.

P.S I take back everything I said about shitty Soviet tank designs with shitty slopped armor. They are wonderful. Soviet tanks were causing more harm to the crews than any enemy ever could. I never seen such a lackluster effort in protecting tank crews. How's your loaders' limbs feeling today? Wasn't aware tanks can be operated without crews.

Yeah, they're uncomfortable. Yeah, they have crappy ammo storage that causes unnecessary crew casualties when the vehicle is taken out of action. And yes, tanks can be operated without a loader, machine autoloaders are pretty much standard in Soviet and some Asian designs.

[Y0ssarian]

"This is of course, provided that the round strikes the ERA, which only covers 60% of the frontal aspect of the T-72 series tank mounted with it."

Also perhaps a more recent article would be relative to this discussion.

How does that make me wrong? The BMP-1s front armor is very sharply sloped and thicker than side or rear, so it can't be penetrated even by repeated .50 cal hits and yes, it can barely be penetrated by autocannons. On the sides and the rear it's not sloped at all, so repeated .50 cal hits could result in a penetration. Shilka's armor isn't as effective on any side. Since I was discussing front armor from the beginning, you're quoting out of context which, sadly, yet again proves you as a bad troll.

Entirely wrong! I was mocking you on a point from which you, yourself took out of context. Anyways, it only reinforces my past argument on the subject. You're simply agreeing with the stance I made by using the BMP as a tangent. Although I have to admit my original argument was of a moot point. Why are we discussing .50 ammunitions? By you defining me as a troll, did you per se, take the troll bait?

edit: I'd like to keep your country out of this and perhaps our discussions all-together in the form of PMs. But hey, w/e is w/e.

[Eternauta]

Lizard, did you really expect a thread like this not to end up in a flame-ish discussion about the USA? I was just participating in a discussion started by my non-offtopic post but that had been done mostly by Cogliostro and Nice_Boat. They both gave their opinions, their discussion kept on and nobody told them to gtfo, so why can't I give my opinions?

Slaver Snipe: Who brought the debt to my country? The neoliberals. Who want to pay the debt? The current government. And you even say we make other countries suffer when the USA invades or destroys the economy in other countries? Now I do believe in balance.

And I why did you need to call us "fuck ups"? Don't put so much rage in your post, it makes you look childish.

[Dark Angel]

OSAMA STILL LIVE IN MOUTAINS :>

[Nice_Boat]

"This is of course, provided that the round strikes the ERA, which only covers 60% of the frontal aspect of the T-72 series tank mounted with it."

So you're saying gunners would have to aim at the remaining 40%, eh? And that it wouldn't affect their performance on the battlefield? Come on, you know that's a ridiculous claim, especially since when it comes to the turret you'd basically have to hit the gun mantle which is a very small target.

Also perhaps a more recent article would be relative to this discussion.

Even the first generation DU M829 performs comparably to the newest Tungsten counterparts fired from 120mm/L-44 (maybe with the exception of stuff like DM-53), yet it failed to penetrate Kontakt-5 fitted T-72. You were saying DU munitions are an overkill and Tungsten APFSDS rounds are enough. I was saying they're barely enough or, in some cases, might prove less effective than desirable. Heck, even the most modern DU rounds like M829A3 are far from being an overkill and may not guarantee a kill on hit as nowadays the proverbial armor and the spear are pretty evenly matched, so basically there's no such thing as "enough penetration" unless you're shooting at T-55s or export T-72s with no ERA. Basically, I proved you wrong. I proved you "your claim was so ridiculously overblown it was definitely retarded" wrong on the "pierce a hole through 2 T-90s with a 120mm DU APFSDS" part. What more do you want? Let's just leave it at that.

Entirely wrong! I was mocking you on a point from which you, yourself took out of context. Anyways, it only reinforces my past argument on the subject. You're simply agreeing with the stance I made by using the BMP as a tangent. Although I have to admit my original argument was of a moot point. Why are we discussing .50 ammunitions? By you defining me as a troll, did you per se, take the troll bait?

Let's recapitulate. I was saying 25mm autocannon launched M919 is barely enough to consistently (meaning not on 40% of hits, not on 60% of hits, not on 80% of hits but on 99,99% of hits because as we probably both know miracles do happen) penetrate BMP-1s front armor. You said it was bullshit because a .50 cal round can penetrate a Shilka. I said Shilka is not relevant to the discussion because it's nowhere near as resilient as BMP-1. That's basically it - and yeah, sorry for taking the troll bait and beginning to discuss .50 cal in the first place. And let's keep in mind that BMP-1 is a ridiculously outdated IFV - Bradleys and probably BMP-3s (I admit I don't know much about the latter, so I'll take a wild guess here) are significantly better armored, so they'd be a bad target for an autocannon at long ranges even when using DU penetrators. That's precisely why modern IFVs have ATGMs to engage hard targets - the autocannon is for taking out stuff like APCs, cars and for providing suppressive fire due to high ROF. And please, let's keep the helicopters and ground attack planes out of this, there's been enough bullshit comparisons in this thread already.

edit: I'd like to keep your country out of this and perhaps our discussions all-together in the form of PMs. But hey, w/e is w/e.

I'm glad, especially since I haven't said a single word about your country - and if I'm right and you're Russian, there'd be a lot to criticize when it comes to how your army has been faring lately when compared to what you've had 30 years ago.

[Kilgore]

Polish soldiers mounting horses agianst tanks.

....and then....

Whatever the hell you're smoking please share!.

Someone was talking about the comedian we've got here, but it seems that he's the one. Congrats

[Y0ssarian]

Oh forgive me for insulting Poland. But to me more precise it is not I who plays the buffon but the many of writers who collaborated together to tell lies on poor Poland!. For shame! Off with their heads! 

With my sincere apologies I as I do not want to incur the wrath which is Poland! Take these broc flower and xander root. Together, they make healing powder.

[Slaver Snipe]

I showed the "rage" in my posts to show you exactly what kilgore meant about your posts darling.

[slaver_stimpack]

OSAMA PK'ed 3000 people on 9/11 and APK's hunted him down.

[Sarakin]

Argentina cannot into space