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Author Topic: Gave it a try, again  (Read 7974 times)

Solar

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Re: Gave it a try, again
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2010, 03:58:20 pm »

I must play a completely different game to you. I crafted over 100k worth of stuff in a couple of weeks without being in danger once ... playing solo :-\ Tents disappear if you don't visit them for 7 days, not that harsh a restriction


To Allow one char to do everything will hardly encourage an economy where players rely on each other, nor particularly encourage player interaction.


There are more than enough skill points, even at I5, to be a crafter and a fighter.

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Now how does this equilize the capabilities of gangs and soloists exactly? It does give a major bonus to gangs and disencourage soloists if anything

Because one person can only use up so much per unit time. If a person could use as many materials as his gang could gather, it allows one person to craft at essentially the same rate as all people who will gather for him combined. These "gatherers" can then gain the benefits of the crafters ability exactly as if they had them. This is not the case in this system, so those players, considered as a whole, will have to give up similar percentages of their combat SP to craft at a similar rate to the solo player.

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And you have to craft top tier equip in the facion base, so you can't quite leave it. That could work.

 8)


Its important to keep in mind that many features will be built over the basic system we have in place now, we can't get everything ready all at once.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 04:12:00 pm by Solar »
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Re: Gave it a try, again
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2010, 04:01:34 pm »

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@Tent - 10 hides arnt realy much a gun and you have 10 hides no problem... or yo ucan spend few mins on crafting and buy hides ~10-20 mins of geathering mats depands what you collect and price on hides...
Its real easy to kill 10 brahmins, get their hides and make a tent and not die even once. The problem is: I assume that brahmins are near-extinct race in FOnline 2238. Well, who cares anyway, we can always use dog pelts....
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Re: Gave it a try, again
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2010, 04:57:33 pm »

I must play a completely different game to you.
Seems so. Experienced player always plays a diffrent game. So diffrent you may even don;t understand the basic problems a new player can have.

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To Allow one char to do everything will hardly encourage an economy where players rely on each other, nor particularly encourage player interaction.
The game is written in a way that a player should avoid relying on any other as much as he can. In every possible situation it's better to run from another player or shoot him, is that the interaction you are trying to imply?. Even if that wasn't basic design the culture (lack of actually) of play and feasible harrasment and griefing did that.

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There are more than enough skill points, even at I5, to be a crafter and a fighter.
And a doctor and a medic and a outdoorsman? No, there isn't.

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Because one person can only use up so much per unit time. If a person could use as many materials as his gang could gather, it allows one person to craft at essentially the same rate as all people who will gather for him combined. These "gatherers" can then gain the benefits of the crafters ability exactly as if they had them. This is not the case in this system, so those players, considered as a whole, will have to give up similar percentages of their combat SP to craft at a similar rate to the solo player.
What this have to do with proffesions? If anything it's a cooldown thing not a proffesion thing. And a group of people can more easily have all proffesions taken then a single player obviously. And for the cooldown thing. That can only work if the system is alt free or at least not as openly alt-friendly. It's way easier for groups to level 5 crafting alts then for a single player to do so. There are better ways to slow down people then cooldowns and ones not as easily alt avoided.
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Solar

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Re: Gave it a try, again
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2010, 05:07:04 pm »

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The game is written in a way that a player should avoid relying on any other as much as he can. In every possible situation it's better to run from another player or shoot him, is that the interaction you are trying to imply?. Even if that wasn't basic design the culture (lack of actually) of play and feasible harrasment and griefing did that.

Currently, that may be the case. But we are a game in development:

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Its important to keep in mind that many features will be built over the basic system we have in place now, we can't get everything ready all at once.

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And a doctor and a medic and a outdoorsman? No, there isn't.

Correct. But you can be combat capable and be any one of those things, or even two of those things as well - which is more than enough.

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What this have to do with proffesions? If anything it's a cooldown thing not a proffesion thing. And a group of people can more easily have all proffesions taken then a single player obviously. And for the cooldown thing. That can only work if the system is alt free or at least not as openly alt-friendly. It's way easier for groups to level 5 crafting alts then for a single player to do so. There are better ways to slow down people then cooldowns and ones not as easily alt avoided.

Ah, yes, I went off on my usual rant about single player vs groups instead of the actual question :)

Let's try this one instead. Professions allow us to set relatively low requirements to craft the best stuff (so people can be multi role chars [see above]) but still limit what they can do

Playing solo is a player choice, it will obviously have disadvantages - though the countdowns still help stop gangs using one crafting alt to allow the others to go as combat alts, so hopefully it equalizes the difference a bit more.
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Quote from: Woodrow Wilson
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Re: Gave it a try, again
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2010, 05:37:14 pm »

Let's try this one instead. Professions allow us to set relatively low requirements to craft the best stuff (so people can be multi role chars [see above]) but still limit what they can do

I'd say that would be true if it weren't for the stat requirements. But needing 9 INT to be a level 3 doctor just means that people have their crafter build and their main. The crafter build is the one that fulfils the profession requirements, while the main is the character they actually want to play. Do you really think everyone who wants to be a master doctor also has 9 INT? Or everyone who wants to be a level 3 armourer has 7 ST?

The high stat requirements discourage players from crafting with their main, because in order to craft their build has to be totally skewed in one direction. I understand there should be basic stat requirements so people don't make a 1 ST 10 INT 10 LK skilled build and just craft with that. But needing 7 Agility to craft small guns just ensures people have a crafting alt, and so we actually see less diversity in character builds because their 'main' can just be combat orientated.
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Re: Gave it a try, again
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2010, 05:52:54 pm »

You can't have a cooperation based game in a enviroment where a bullet in the head is the best greeting. It's not a matter of development :) It's a matter of design choice. I'm not saying I want to limit PvP. Yeah, wastelands are cruel. But I would gladly limit the amount of reliance one must have on other players [every single one of them can screw you over if you trust them, and if you treat the current game as a test, you see that players will act as jackasses if they have the possibility of no punishment and what's worse the reward of screwing someone who did trusted you, its just human nature] or ones alts.

I would rather see limitations of crafting based on factions then on proffesions. You can't beat VC med labs with healing powder. You can't make plasma rifles from junk found in NCR, but you don't expect Enclave technology to be as cheap and easy to make. And you have to join the Enclave in the first place. And they don't welcome mutants [you are not a human in their eyes wastelander] with open arms.

And to clarify. I love the game :) Great job. But there are things that migth not work as planned sadly. And it's our job [the testers] to point them out.
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Gatling

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Re: Gave it a try, again
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2010, 08:00:36 pm »

The crafter build is the one that fulfils the profession requirements, while the main is the character they actually want to play. Do you really think everyone who wants to be a master doctor also has 9 INT?

Speak for yourself.  I combined a smallguns burster build that was quite effective into a Doc 3 char and that was my main for the longest time.  The only reason he was nerfed was because of the Reputation system.  And if not for that, he would still be my main, making buffout in VC so he could later carry the loot of people he shot.

And don't sell all new players short.  I've guided several, and one got to lvl 21 with a sniper/SG3 char pretty fast.  Surprised me (o.O) He ground out those high lvl weapons like it was nobodies business, lol.  And he did it all solo down in NCR and his tent.
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Solar

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Re: Gave it a try, again
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2010, 08:32:16 pm »

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Do you really think everyone who wants to be a master doctor also has 9 INT? Or everyone who wants to be a level 3 armourer has 7 ST?

Well, I was talking about skills more than SPECIAL, SPECIAL can just use drugs anyway - so I just disregard it in most cases.


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I would rather see limitations of crafting based on factions then on proffesions.

I would rather both.


As for new players, some are idiots and can't play, some are veteran gamers who will pick it up in minutes.
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Quote from: Woodrow Wilson
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Re: Gave it a try, again
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2010, 09:01:49 pm »

I was wondering what the chances are of ever seeing some of these ideas tested ingame?
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Re: Gave it a try, again
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2010, 11:37:34 pm »

I was wondering what the chances are of ever seeing some of these ideas tested ingame?

Suggestions: 2782 Posts in 258 Topics

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Solar

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Re: Gave it a try, again
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2010, 11:59:32 pm »

"Some" not "All" ;)

Its hard to put a timescale on things, since we all work in our spare time, but I have no doubt we will keep steadily chugging a long with things.
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Surf

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Re: Gave it a try, again
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2010, 05:25:57 am »

« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 06:04:15 am by Surf Solar »
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Re: Gave it a try, again
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2010, 08:23:48 pm »

Hello.  I have found much the same things as the original poster.  I have also given this a try, again- and there simply is no entrance curve to welcome new players.  I played for an extended period at the beginning of this continuing beta launch.  I've done a considerable amount of playing.  This is not simply an issue of quests to help new players or learning to survive.  It is the nature of the game at its core despite all else and the small, stagnant, exclusive elite that remain the focus.  Overspecialized characters and abundance of timeouts are certainly an issue- it is never fun to wait on a timer, and I think it is important to remember that fun should be a primary focus in regards to a game.  More creative limitations and slowdowns to crafting economy, or to keep pace between gamespeed and worldspeed(FA, Doc, weakness timeouts, etc.), are a dire need.  As for overspecialization of characters- or perhaps under?  Either way, a crafter is best as an alt as the requirements are simply so high, and in the best case, alts piloted by your buddies.  They are much less an in-character character as an out of character machine at any rate, and I do not think that was the original intent behind encouraging specialization to encourage working together.

Finally, the issue, or at least feeling to players like myself, is the elite clubs that seem to be the focus of the game that a new player has simply no access to.  Levelling is slow, and without skills you have little to offer.  I am not one to welcome the idea of grinding solo on the wasteland out of a tent a combat character to offer limited skills either.  Not with my previous, earlier experience in FOnline either, when it was a little rougher and newer and exploring the wastes with an equally clueless bunch was fun in of itself- surviving a friendly molotov that hit a little too close or spending one of my few precious shotgun shells to save my buddy with an uncanny resemblance to Tor from a Brahmin he managed to piss off.  In fact I have little desire to be a part of those elite gangs in the first place, for from the outside it seems just like a bunch of community circle-jerking.  Appearance of power tripping GMs and the delivering or collecting of "ultimate" level items do not help in the least.

Wait.
Why do I not find others like myself to work together with?  Because despite everything, we are not encouraged to do so.  The logical, efficient thing to do is indeed grind the wasteland out of a tent- befriending someone out of town is as much as a potential liability as it is a boon and between death timers, cooldown timers, weakness timers, and walking the wastelands, having time to look around for just the right individuals in town is not easy.  Thank god you have made the towns safer, at least.  What I want to say is: there should be something, some PvE activity really, that changes this.  Encounters, especially if these encounters involve more than just combat.  Scavenging, perhaps?  You can make new encounter maps; then make MANY more encounter maps, that have many skill and special checks to be impossible under one man.

Reading my post, I'm afraid I might not quite be getting home just what is a problem.  So I will attempt to describe the experience.
I am pretty damn familiar with the crafting and the combat in this game.  I laboriously create a new character.  I try to make him interesting in design for a bit of non-obvious roleplay.  Annoyingly I can't get too creative, because such a limited number of things really "work".  I have to be ABSOLUTELY SURE that he is planned out right all the way to level 21, with perks and skill points.  When I start, with a lot of "luck", patience, and foreknowledge of location and the skill checks involved, I boost myself up with quest xp and items.  Then I hunt for brahmin hides.  If I die at any point here, with penalties more designed for limitation of high-level play with gangs of support, it will only take a couple of times before I and many others with worse patience to feel discouraged and simply quit, not even looking back at what they might be missing.  There is a tent, and then what?  It is not AS bad when I die now.  I scrape encounters for xp, either with the determination of a monk to eat dirt in melee at regular intervals, or under expensive ammo and gun consumption that forces you to roll a crafter alt- a heavy and boring timesink.  I still find no entertaining interaction with others, town hubs are not a good enough meeting place(even trading and bartering between players is done on a scale and level done under the activity of many alts, giving me no place in the system), and accidental death of even one I might work with quickly brings any collaboration to a halt.  Most likely, a critical chance one way or another will happen eventually and lose me time and push my patience too far.  Then I'm gone and don't look back and the game continues to revolve around those in their own elite groups, attentioned a little too much by GMs and the work done by the devs.
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Re: Gave it a try, again
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2010, 05:52:15 pm »

I think the Original Poster and "Miguel" are right in everything they have said.

Timers are just plain bad, there are good suggestions for alternatives to cooldown timers here. Why are the DEVs so determined to keep them? Cooldown timers encounrage ALTs. There are better and more subtle ways.

At the vest least please make this game Open Source. If nothing else, as stated, it will let programmers and so on jump in and help you when they are bored.

Nothing more I can say really, I think everything has been covered and Miguel's description of what happens is pretty much bang on what happened when I first started playing. I was a solo guy on my own ater a while I nearly just deleted the game and moved on.

I do love FOnline but I think there are a few features of it which need to be fixed. One of the major ones is "ALTs". There are some easy ways to stop major alting:

1: Email address required per character set (say 3 chars per email with set timers for switching between them).
2: IP tracking for logins.
3: Get rid of timers and make the character build system more evenly spread to discourage ALTs in the first place.

Yeah it wont stop all the ALTers, there are always a few who slip throughthe nets but right now ALTing is blatent and everyone does it.


Also, its wrong what you say about being able to have a crafter and a combat character. In PVP, anyone who has a character not 100% designed around PVP doesnt stand a chance of survival. Yeah there are the odd occasions where the dice and circumstances favour the underdog but in general pure PVP chars have the real kick in a fight.

In my personal experiance you can send as many "balenced" or Crafter type characters at a gang of Sniper and Big Gun PVPers and its no surprise who will come out on top.
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Re: Gave it a try, again
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2010, 05:59:35 pm »

I think the Original Poster and "Miguel" are right in everything they have said.

Timers are just plain bad, there are good suggestions for alternatives to cooldown timers here. Why are the DEVs so determined to keep them? Cooldown timers encounrage ALTs. There are better and more subtle ways.

At the vest least please make this game Open Source. If nothing else, as stated, it will let programmers and so on jump in and help you when they are bored.

Nothing more I can say really, I think everything has been covered and Miguel's description of what happens is pretty much bang on what happened when I first started playing. I was a solo guy on my own ater a while I nearly just deleted the game and moved on.

I do love FOnline but I think there are a few features of it which need to be fixed. One of the major ones is "ALTs". There are some easy ways to stop major alting:

1: Email address required per character set (say 3 chars per email with set timers for switching between them).
2: IP tracking for logins.
3: Get rid of timers and make the character build system more evenly spread to discourage ALTs in the first place.

Yeah it wont stop all the ALTers, there are always a few who slip throughthe nets but right now ALTing is blatent and everyone does it.


Also, its wrong what you say about being able to have a crafter and a combat character. In PVP, anyone who has a character not 100% designed around PVP doesnt stand a chance of survival. Yeah there are the odd occasions where the dice and circumstances favour the underdog but in general pure PVP chars have the real kick in a fight.

In my personal experiance you can send as many "balenced" or Crafter type characters at a gang of Sniper and Big Gun PVPers and its no surprise who will come out on top.
And what was the point of that post if the wipe is like already here. Things gonna change in it, you kno..
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