Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[SantaFaust]

If you don't like crafting DON'T CRAFT. I like crafting. This is one of most interesting thing in 223.

[Kharaam]

well right now pretty much items are beong scavenged- junk, electronic parts, wood... there were times when you could get all of that in NCR without leaving.
and now you want to remove mining? so a poor noob couldn't even safely go to his junktown mine and get some metal parts? really for a noob running to the wasteland to find junk can be real pain in the ass.
No more scavenging! We have enough of this! Leave the crafters be.
Like Killgore said about madmax wannabes- you need to know that in games there needs to be balance between playability and athmosphere. You just can not make game fully realistic- nobody would play it then.

[SantaFaust]

Mad Max have different "mechanic". He can kill somebody with one shotgun bullet. Try this in FO. You not kill even first level bluesuit. In the world of Mad max there is no Fallout engine. He can kill by other ways then shooting. Try to kill somebody in FO with car.

[Eternauta]

Kilgore, and those who said similar stuff: I do get your point (you didn't need to get so mad however), but tell me, do raiders (I mean the basic, weak raiders), wander around with Avengers? No, they don't. Even the Khans use better guns but light armor. Only players are able to become a small gang raping everyone with tier 3 armor and weapons. So I think it doesn't make much sense. It has nothing to do with any of that "Mad Max wannabe" bullshit you made up. I do like Mad Max, but that is not the reason stuff like this is suggested. I wasn't even thinking about Mad Max when I typed that.

Anyway I suppose that this situation will change with Domination Mode and everything Solar explained, which I think sounds very, very cool.

Also:

If you don't like crafting DON'T CRAFT. I like crafting. This is one of most interesting thing in 223.

Well if you don't like scavenging, DON'T SCAVENGE. I like scavenging, and think it needs a bit of an overhaul.

And about this:

Mad Max have different "mechanic". He can kill somebody with one shotgun bullet. Try this in FO. You not kill even first level bluesuit. In the world of Mad max there is no Fallout engine. He can kill by other ways then shooting. Try to kill somebody in FO with car.

Well like I already said this has nothing to do with Mad Max... but if the devs simply decided to do so, they could rework weapons to make 10mm Pistol deadly against unarmored enemies. Actually, you can try something similar with a Fallout 2 mod called Weapons Redone.

Also, I know that this is a very minor element of the game, but have you ever went to Broken Hills by car in the original Fallout 2? You should see what happens the first time you get there by car: your poor driving skills make you end up with a ghoul under your Highwayman. Yeah, I bet you think this is stupid, but just like Surf Solar said, crafting makes sense in Fallout world because there were NPC crafters in the original games. We can apply the same logic here.

And remember that Fallout is a game and Mad Max is a movie

[Spotty]

However, I agree with one thing: crafting in a magical workbench, where you can transform some rocks into an advanced equipment, is just purely dumb.

This basically sums up what I wanted to say. Basic crafting, ie spears, hammers and soon, those are things people can make in a few minutes. that should stay.

Now, the same shit again: ammo should be scarce, weapons should be scarce.

With my idea of not crafting bullets, but including new ways to get them, even recycle them with the spent shells, the sucessful player will just get more and more bullets while the not so sucessful player will be trying to scavenge them wherever they can.

With the repair by cannibalizing it should be easier to fix weapons, the basic weapons will still overflow in the game, while the more high tier ones, such as LSW's and Avengers will be in higher demand due to the need of spareparts. Fixing weapons using a wad of air is silly. Spareparts is what makes repair go around. Alternatlively, use metalparts to fix damaged weapons, 1 mp for 5% maybe?

I've also thought how come we mine and chop wood like some WoW players instead of scavenging like survivors. Mines are most likely here to stay, but it'd be cool to have at least an option to scavenge. Searching for junk is a good start but it's a bit boring.

Scavenging for junk was indeed a nice addition, would love to expand on that.

Besides, guns can be crafted in rather primitive conditions which is proven by inmates making firearms in prisons and illegal pakistani gunsmiths making guns and ammo in mud huts with simple tools.

Weapons such as zip guns are made in prisons. Pakistani gunsmiths use discarded AK's to make new ones. You wont see either group making a plasma rifle or a minigun out of forks and mud using simple tools. High tier weapons needs dedicated workshops, such as those available to Enclave, BOS, NCR, VC and Gunrunners. (Raiders? Sierra?) As a member one could use factionpoints (as is WIP?) to purchase more advanced weaponry.

Dont want to see farming of weapons going away, thats fallouty, but looting 100 LSW's and then fixing them all to pristine state using just air, is bull. Spareparts is needed!

I agree with pretty much everything Kilgore said.

Regarding what I've quoted, workbenches will be capable of crafting only Tier 0+1 items, with more advanced facilities being required for the fancier stuff (Domination, unguarded areas, able to earn access via NPC factions).

This is great info, but metal armors for example, which is tier 2, shouldnt require that much skill to make, anybody could make one at home with a bunch of metal plates and a few tools.

If you don't like crafting DON'T CRAFT. I like crafting. This is one of most interesting thing in 223.

I don't like crafting, and I don't craft. It is NOT interesting. It is a chore. People make alt's to craft, meaning, they dont really care much for it, so they make alts.

well right now pretty much items are beong scavenged- junk, electronic parts, wood... there were times when you could get all of that in NCR without leaving.

And Im happy you no longer can get all that in NCR. Everyone had a bot standing next to the junkbarrels, it was ridiculous. Scavenging is the way to go, get out there, start searching the wasteland. Stop sitting inside and have the resources of the wasteland served to you on a gold platter. Work for your resources.

[Kilgore]

Only players are able to become a small gang raping everyone with tier 3 armor and weapons.

What's the difference between a small gang raping everyone with hunting rifles and a small gang raping everyone with avengers?

To be honest, I personally think that getting stuff through scavenging and some simple crafting is WAY better than digging ore and transforming it into sophisticated stuff at workbench. Just when I read some ideas like "weapons/ammo should be scarce so people will fight with worse equipment" I'm wondering if it's written by someone who plays this game for 1 month or something.. in 2nd session, you wanted a shitload of ammo for your minigun, you killed a caravan or two and you had it. In 3rd session, getting ammo started to be painful, and...

...did it change anything? Did people stopped using miniguns to kill some poor bluesuits who hoped their deaths will ruin their killers? The answer is: NO.

The only result was actually some whining from those who had to waste more time on sth they don't like (crafting) to be able to do what they like ("pwning bluesuits with minigun" or doing whatever you can imagine with it).

[Eternauta]

Well Kilgore,

What's the difference between a small gang raping everyone with hunting rifles and a small gang raping everyone with avengers?

You can't pwn anything you want with a hunting rifle.

...did it change anything? Did people stopped using miniguns to kill some poor bluesuits who hoped their deaths will ruin their killers? The answer is: NO.

Well now THAT is more like an argument here My answer to that is related to this part as well:

The only result was actually some whining from those who had to waste more time on sth they don't like (crafting) to be able to do what they like ("pwning bluesuits with minigun" or doing whatever you can imagine with it).

Some people like crafting. And you shouldn't just be able to go kill anyone you want. There should be limit and consequences.

[Crazy]

Some people like crafting.

And some don't. I think allowing many path to get stuff is good: scavenging, farming, trading, and crafting.

And you shouldn't just be able to go kill anyone you want. There should be limit and consequences.

What prevent other player to do same things as the "gang p0wning everyone" to be able to crush it? It work.

[Kilgore]

You can't pwn anything you want with a hunting rifle.

Wrong, if hunting rifle was the best gun you could get in the game, then yes, "your small gang" could "pwn anything" you wanted with it. It doesn't matter if it's vindicator, avenger, flamer or 10mm pistol, as long as it's the best (more or less) gun available. Of course it will look better when raiders use some stuff like hunting or assault rifle, but overall feeling of those that get raped by it doesn't change, does it?

[Eternauta]

I think allowing many path to get stuff is good: scavenging, farming, trading, and crafting.

Dude, that was my point since the beggining... scavenging should be better, farming should be possible but with consequences, etc...

Wrong, if hunting rifle was the best gun you could get in the game, then yes, "your small gang" could "pwn anything" you wanted with it. It doesn't matter if it's vindicator, avenger, flamer or 10mm pistol, as long as it's the best (more or less) gun available. Of course it will look better when raiders use some stuff like hunting or assault rifle, but overall feeling of those that get raped by it doesn't change, does it?

Yeah of course you are right, but there should still be consequences for such actions.

---EDIT---

Okay sorry for the quick answer, I will try to make my ideas clear:

Just like Crazy said, there should be different ways of getting stuff. But I believe that getting gear should be related to the player's freedom and his connections with NPC factions. I think that Player driven faction should be able to choose between being "independent", or becoming a satellite group of a NPC faction. So for example:

-Scavenging: everyone can do this freely, and nobody will get mad at you if you do it. However, you will only get deteriorated and low tier gear. Scavenging could get an overhaul - getting metal from cars, for example, gunshop random encounters, etc...

-Crafting: low tier gear can be crafted freely, and will get you 0% det items. However, in order to craft some specific kind of tier 3 (and maybe even tier 2) items, you need to join a specific NPC faction which will give you blueprints once you get a certain reputation with them/complete some quest/something similar. Or you can buy the blueprint from a Player who belongs to that faction (and he will lower his reputation with them).

-Trading: you can freely trade low tier gear with most NPC merchants. But to get better gear, you need to trade with other Player driven factions, or with NPC merchants from NPC factions, and this requires a certain reputation with that NPC faction. If you belong to a NPC faction and trade the special items you get from them (crafted with their blueprints), you will lose reputation with your boss, no matter if you give those items to other players or to NPCs from another faction. The same happens if you sell their blueprints.

-Farming: you can do it almost freely. If you attack NPCs who belong to the same NPC faction as you, your reputation will be lowered. The same happens if you attack other Players who belong to that faction. Attacking NPCs who are "neutral" or belong to another faction might have no effect on your reputation, or maybe depending to the relationship they have with the faction you belong to.

That's it.

[vilaz]

...
-Scavenging: everyone can do this freely, and nobody will get mad at you if you do it. However, you will only get deteriorated and low tier gear. Scavenging could get an overhaul - getting metal from cars, for example, gunshop random encounters, etc...

-Crafting: low tier gear can be crafted freely, and will get you 0% det items. However, in order to craft some specific kind of tier 3 (and maybe even tier 2) items, you need to join a specific NPC faction which will give you blueprints once you get a certain reputation with them/complete some quest/something similar. Or you can buy the blueprint from a Player who belongs to that faction (and he will lower his reputation with them).

-Trading: you can freely trade low tier gear with most NPC merchants. But to get better gear, you need to trade with other Player driven factions, or with NPC merchants from NPC factions, and this requires a certain reputation with that NPC faction. If you belong to a NPC faction and trade the special items you get from them (crafted with their blueprints), you will lose reputation with your boss, no matter if you give those items to other players or to NPCs from another faction. The same happens if you sell their blueprints.

-Farming: you can do it almost freely. If you attack NPCs who belong to the same NPC faction as you, your reputation will be lowered. The same happens if you attack other Players who belong to that faction. Attacking NPCs who are "neutral" or belong to another faction might have no effect on your reputation, or maybe depending to the relationship they have with the faction you belong to...

Sounds really tasty and makes lots of sense!

Probably I'm going to far but it would be interesting to have changing NPC faction politics. Something easy like every 96-192 Ingame hours reputation between NPC factions slightly change so everybody can notice it. At some point one faction can be in war with some other and after some time it can be back at cease fire or peace or anything. Players could act as their faction is telling him to.

[Solar]

-Scavenging: everyone can do this freely, and nobody will get mad at you if you do it. However, you will only get deteriorated and low tier gear. Scavenging could get an overhaul - getting metal from cars, for example, gunshop random encounters, etc...

Actually, so long as its infrequent enough, there should be no problem allowing more scavenging of the basic parts to craft.

-Crafting: low tier gear can be crafted freely, and will get you 0% det items. However, in order to craft some specific kind of tier 3 (and maybe even tier 2) items, you need to join a specific NPC faction which will give you blueprints once you get a certain reputation with them/complete some quest/something similar. Or you can buy the blueprint from a Player who belongs to that faction (and he will lower his reputation with them).

Low tier will be free, the higher tiers will be limited by having to earn access to facilities and by getting blueprints via quests (Inside and outside of NPC factions - crafting won't be tied so closely to specific factions again)

-Trading: you can freely trade low tier gear with most NPC merchants. But to get better gear, you need to trade with other Player driven factions, or with NPC merchants from NPC factions, and this requires a certain reputation with that NPC faction. If you belong to a NPC faction and trade the special items you get from them (crafted with their blueprints), you will lose reputation with your boss, no matter if you give those items to other players or to NPCs from another faction. The same happens if you sell their blueprints.

Trading will become a lot more controlled. You won't be able to trade crap directly for great items and low tech traders will have less access to caps, so its harder to sell crap for caps and then use those to buy great items.

Rep will also play more of a role in determining price - so if you want decent deals you will have to build relations with them

-Farming: you can do it almost freely. If you attack NPCs who belong to the same NPC faction as you, your reputation will be lowered. The same happens if you attack other Players who belong to that faction. Attacking NPCs who are "neutral" or belong to another faction might have no effect on your reputation, or maybe depending to the relationship they have with the faction you belong to.

Farming needs to be harder and less profitable. Limiting the flow of crap -> good items is a start, but expect it to be harder to singlehandedly slaughter entire small countries worth of population


Opening up several ways to earn your crust is the aim anyway.

[avv]

Wrong, if hunting rifle was the best gun you could get in the game, then yes, "your small gang" could "pwn anything" you wanted with it. It doesn't matter if it's vindicator, avenger, flamer or 10mm pistol, as long as it's the best (more or less) gun available. Of course it will look better when raiders use some stuff like hunting or assault rifle, but overall feeling of those that get raped by it doesn't change, does it?

However hunting rifle isn't instapwn compared to for example plasma rifle. When you don't get instakilled by first shot, there's more room for tactics.

[vilaz]

Trading will become a lot more controlled. You won't be able to trade crap directly for great items and low tech traders will have less access to caps, so its harder to sell crap for caps and then use those to buy great items.

Less caps? Again?

Actual overflow of caps is because of bank interest. Everyone can multiply their cash in bank to the infinity but there still should be some place to get those caps from in beginning.

[Solar]

On the traders willing to buy useless stuff, sure. Farming knives off farmers in encounters, turning them into loads of caps and then buying Plasma Rifles shouldn't be a reliable means of getting high end gear.

For the guys who deal in good stuff already - so harder encounters, crafting, etc - the amount of caps can be relatively similar to now.