Other > Closed suggestions

Town vs. Town PvP

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Nice_Boat:

--- Quote from: avv on January 27, 2010, 06:59:23 pm ---Yeah right. Being player driven enviroment alone changes all your goals. I bet that you're just doing everything that's possible, rather than doing what raiders would do. If you could force everyone in the game to carry an apple on their primary slot and worship brahmins, you'd do it just out of interest. Killing people and taking their stuff just happens to be the most interesting way to interact with other players right now.
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I don't think that raiding Vault City to kill Lynette or the NCR to intercept a trading operation is really all that cost effective. But we did it because that's what raiders would do and we liked the idea. Moreover, we don't really craft that much somewhat limiting our resources even though we could do it without any problems. But then again - you seem to know what we do and what we don't do better than us, so this part of our discussion doesn't seem to go anywhere.


--- Quote from: avv on January 27, 2010, 06:59:23 pm ---I don't know a single DA member, let alone NA. I don't even know which faction member you are. From my point of view the only influence the gangs seem to have on the game world is to make the unguarded towns unsafe, fill the worldmap with caravan cars and occasionally try to stir up some confusion in guarded towns. Basically none of the unguarded towns have something so important that a player has to visit them more than once, so camping there doesn't have such a big impact on the game world.
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They have the cash and having cash gives a lot of benefits - along with the possible equipment gains when your faction wins it's all well worth it. The unguarded towns are unsafe because fighting has been quite fierce lately. Before that stage, DA was winning so you couldn't really expect to feel safe there.


--- Quote from: avv on January 27, 2010, 06:59:23 pm ---By changing the world I mean simply changing something of the gameworld towards your own favour. For example right now there's no way to defeat or conquer anyone for extended time period. If you're a gang who decides to establish their own rules and laws in Den, they may do it for 8 hours in row but when they leave its all for nothing. There's no way to declare that you have gained a significant checkpoint in the timeline of the server. I would call it an achievement if some group could establish their own city in the middle of all this chaos.
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That's because no side has gained an advantage significant enough to establish their rule. You could defeat or conquer anyone if you had enough people and stuff to outclass them.


--- Quote from: avv on January 27, 2010, 06:59:23 pm ---Players could choose the factions whiches rules suit them best. Raiders, slavers and New Reno gangs would be closest to total anarcy. NCR rangers and brotherhood would be the wasteland police, but with rules that prevent cruelty towards innocents. Because players that are fans of total anarchy would basically destroy the whole world if they could, their factions have to have limited power.
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Yeah, but it's more about choosing your own companions than about the groups' mindset. I mean, if I were a member of Mordinos I'd to have to deal with other Mordinos even if I didn't like them. That way those factions would have simply no coherence and esprit the corps if you will, which is what makes the current gang scene so awesome to participate in.


--- Quote from: avv on January 27, 2010, 06:59:23 pm ---There's nowhere near clear picture how exactly this whole npc faction system could work. There's no telling yet how and how much players should be allowed to change the npc faction's policy or extend its influence over the wasteland. But it certainly doesn't have to be repetitive scripts. Maybe a player could become the general of vault city's security forces, the president of ncr or the leader of raiders. He would have to make decisions that make the faction stronger, not fuck it up.
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There's no way NPC factions could be both open and player governed. It'd eventually lead to the towns becoming very hermetic communities and new players would be even more screwed than they are now. Besides, aside from the label - what different would being VC general be from being a gangleader right now? The only REAL difference would be a very limited faction number which never is a good thing.


--- Quote from: avv on January 27, 2010, 06:59:23 pm ---However I do admit that freedom to have your own gang and being part of its conquest over the gameworld is fascinating. This fascination is the engine that runs many mmo games but in those games there are always rules, boundaries and common goals which all the gangs follow or they perish or fail have any influence.

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There are rules (see TC system and the guarded towns are) and there are unwritten rules (make your fights give you economic profit instead of loss, choose your friends carefully, some tactical stuff which changes from town to town etc.). It's all there, you're barking up the wrong tree right now.

Badger:
Got an addendum I'd like to add this idea. Attacking a player who's a member of another town's faction unprovoked earns you minus reputation with that faction. Nothing too huge, maybe just -100 per person or something. And obviously it gets degraded over time like all reputation.

Obviously it needs to be tweaked to consider suicide bombs, stealing etc. But it does cause indiscriminate slaughter to have a consequence, even if you always win.

avv:

--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on January 27, 2010, 07:22:51 pm ---They have the cash and having cash gives a lot of benefits - along with the possible equipment gains when your faction wins it's all well worth it. The unguarded towns are unsafe because fighting has been quite fierce lately. Before that stage, DA was winning so you couldn't really expect to feel safe there.
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They can be as rich as they want but still it won't change anything. It's not like they are going to burst into my tent and enforce me to pay them tax. Nor will they buy the whole Hub and start governing it how they see fit. If I'm not interested in their affairs, their power cannot reach me.


--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on January 27, 2010, 07:22:51 pm ---That's because no side has gained an advantage significant enough to establish their rule. You could defeat or conquer anyone if you had enough people and stuff to outclass them.
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Or a group of people with such determination towards the game that it's not even healthy. I've read an article about game called Asheron's Call where group of determined players prevented an event by taking turns in watching over some area. That is not what the game should encourage. Certain mmo games go too far with maximized effectivity, having people wake up in the middle of night to perform certain tasks. There should be easier ways to have visible impact on game world.


--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on January 27, 2010, 07:22:51 pm ---Yeah, but it's more about choosing your own companions than about the groups' mindset. I mean, if I were a member of Mordinos I'd to have to deal with other Mordinos even if I didn't like them. That way those factions would have simply no coherence and esprit the corps if you will, which is what makes the current gang scene so awesome to participate in.
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Indeed, players could have to get to deal with people they don't want to know. But common goals force people to teamwork, just think of any team based pvp game. Even though there can be inner quarrels, they all want that it is their faction/team that wins. That's how it goes everywhere.


--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on January 27, 2010, 07:22:51 pm ---There's no way NPC factions could be both open and player governed. It'd eventually lead to the towns becoming very hermetic communities and new players would be even more screwed than they are now. Besides, aside from the label - what different would being VC general be from being a gangleader right now? The only REAL difference would be a very limited faction number which never is a good thing.
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It's hard to say certainly what would happen if players had a say over npc factions. Nevertheless, all I'm trying tell that there needs to be more to reach for in the world. I've read some messages how the game turns uninteresting once max level has been reached. At that point players have enough stuff to arm themselves with the best available gear or buy every brahmin in the world, but there's nothing to fight for or nothing to put that money. Players can think of some imaginary goals for themselves but such things don't have any impact on the gameworld nor are they marked anywhere. Fighting for and strenghtening an npc factions would provide players a long term goal and it would be on par with fallout background story.
However, it's basically all the same what this long term goal would be, as long as it suits the wasteland theme.


--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on January 27, 2010, 07:22:51 pm ---There are rules (see TC system and the guarded towns are) and there are unwritten rules (make your fights give you economic profit instead of loss, choose your friends carefully, some tactical stuff which changes from town to town etc.). It's all there, you're barking up the wrong tree right now.
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By rules and boundaries I meant rules that should encourage players not to play in irrational ways compared to the game world's theme. If the theme is wasteland and fallout, players should be after survival and perhaps even survival of their kin. This way the feel of the game is kept, powergaming goes along with roleplaying and people have clear visions about what they want to achieve. Some gangs fighting just because they can fight has nothing to do with survival because they could just live peacefully. However if they fought over a watersupply, it'd be another story.

Nice_Boat:
I have nothing against providing further goals in the endgame (but I think you're a bit mistaken about the ammount of stuff those people tend to have) - I'd gladly see something more to do even though fighting for control and prestige is fun enough. What I totally disagree with is that it has to be based around NPC driven factions. They could get interested in a gang that has taken control over given ammount of towns for a given ammount of time and perhaps hire it to wage a little proxy war or guard their caravan for an additional reward in caps or nice equipment if successful (which I'd say wouldn't go against F2 lore too much if at all), but I think we shouldn't be looking this way in the long run. Maybe making resources more location specific would make some sense (fighting for water supply seems bad cause it'd require 24/7, but having some resources become available to the faction that won the town control would be a nice idea aside from the fact that it could cause serious balance issues if one of the factions became too dominant over time). I also don't like the idea of "permament achievement", as it implies that the game could be "won" - ie. one of the factions could become so powerful that others simply wouldn't have a shot against them.

Narwhal:
Nice_Boat, you're absolutely mistaken if you think the current state of PVP doesnt affect the way others play. All of the cities are different; there are some crucial low-tier quests in Modoc and the north towns, and all the PVP shit really interferes with that. Remember, YOU may not have use for those NPCs in those towns but I'd say almost all of the starting players will. The suggestion in this thread is atleast aimed at letting more people play the way they want instead of mob rule in an unbalanced beta win out. You have no sense of decency, if you consider new players and decide "my actions / our actions as PVPers in the north don't interfere with game flow or new players". The south is nothing like the north, from a newbies perspective there's nothing to really help a player out down there (after the initial, unrepeatable quests have been done).

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