Other > Closed suggestions

Town vs. Town PvP

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Surf:

--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on January 27, 2010, 04:21:09 pm ---
We're playing raiders [...]

--- End quote ---

How comes that many people never saw a single person playing a raider proper?
What exactly are the goals of you "raiders"? Attacking people in towns for... what?

Raiders in the fallout games raided to.. survive, to get food, valuables or.. women,slaves etc.
What do you "raid" exactly? Of course I don't know the actual circumstances because I'm not involved there, but for players not joining this "war" it looks just... stupid.

Nice_Boat:

--- Quote from: Surf Solar on January 27, 2010, 04:27:26 pm ---How comes that many people never saw a single person playing a raider proper?
--- End quote ---
What's playing a raider proper? Engaging in idle conversations in the middle of combat? Sorry, can't do that - I don't have an additional pair of hands to type while I'm busy searching for targets, exchanging fire or applying first aid. Moreover - even if I could, I wouldn't if the battle wasn't over cause those large chunks of text (and especially the red ones) are a nice bullet magnet.


--- Quote from: Surf Solar on January 27, 2010, 04:27:26 pm ---What exactly are the goals of you "raiders"? Attacking people in towns for... what?
--- End quote ---
But for their belongings of course.


--- Quote from: Surf Solar on January 27, 2010, 04:27:26 pm ---Raiders in the fallout games raided to.. survive, to get food, valuables or.. women,slaves etc.
What do you "raid" exactly?
--- End quote ---
We raid the towns, force them to pay us tribute and get valuables from the people we don't know who just happen to be unlucky enough to be there. That pretty much fits the description, doesn't it?


--- Quote from: Surf Solar on January 27, 2010, 04:27:26 pm ---Of course I don't know the actual circumstances because I'm not involved there, but for players not joining this "war" it looks just... stupid.
--- End quote ---
And yet somehow the people who get involved and fight this war usually end up having the best equipment and being able to project the most power which I believe is the goal of every player driven faction out there (either the ultimate goal, or just means of securing their own little town and doing some rp/trading there).

avv:

--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on January 27, 2010, 04:21:09 pm ---We're playing raiders, we're fighting the NA who fancy themselves the sheriffs of the vastes, you might want to join their cause.
--- End quote ---


Nah, youre just powergaming. The fact is that killing everyone everywhere and using trading and crafting alts happens to be the most powerful method to gain power in this game. By power I mean items. There's not much bigger goal. Besides, there's no way to really change the gameworld. You can keep blasting your enemies forever but nothing really changes. People die, stuff changes its owner and that's it.


--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on January 27, 2010, 04:21:09 pm ---What do you propose instead - forcing veteran players to fight side by side with newbies? Replacing player driven politics with some bullshit "NCR vs Vault City" noone's going to care about? Nobody's going to enjoy that in the long run (because it's much more shallow than what we have now) and it's going to look more like a public Counter-Strike game than "well-structured PvP placed in a proper context".
--- End quote ---

The reason why I think npc factions should have bigger role is that players who don't want to be involved in intense player controlled clan game schemes is this:
Being in clan has a social burden. You have this "feel of responsibility" when you're running an event with your gangmates. It's not proper to leave in the middle of enlonged fight because it could mean your faction could lose. Having npc factions players could enjoy being in a society without the responsibility to constantly work for the common good, or to wonder who's gonna have to mine more ore or take less stuff from cabinets. Neither you'd need to discuss the faction's policies because it has certain laws that everyone agrees on (to murder or not to murder). You could gain fame, wealth and power by being a respected member of that faction or just hang around there because of the security the city offers. Besides, you could pick the guys inside this npc faction whom you want to co-operate with.
I'm quite sure that everyone is somewhat interested in changing the game world, even thought they might not care about the glory of Vault City. But to change the bigger schemes it would have to happen through npc factions because only they got the manpower and materials. You think some random "The Westside Roughboys" gang could ever take over ncr? Ncr has 10k soldiers. Good luck.

But if you want to raid modoc, kill or enslave everyone there, it sounds plausible.

Nice_Boat:

--- Quote from: avv on January 27, 2010, 05:23:42 pm ---Nah, youre just powergaming. The fact is that killing everyone everywhere and using trading and crafting alts happens to be the most powerful method to gain power in this game. By power I mean items. There's not much bigger goal. Besides, there's no way to really change the gameworld. You can keep blasting your enemies forever but nothing really changes. People die, stuff changes its owner and that's it.
--- End quote ---
What does it mean to powergame? We're doing the same stuff raiders did in FO2, only we're doing it in a more efficient manner because we're, you know, humans and this is a player driven environment. And what do you mean by changing the gameworld? There were at least 3 historical events that basically reshaped the wasteland po-wipe:
- BBS domination
- NA was formed
- DA was formed
... and all of these influenced basically EVERYONE including the NCR dwellers whether they have the honesty to admit it or not. The fact that one side is blasting the other more, hence gathering more stuff is enough to change the gameworld and actually have a lot of influence on the towns the given faction choses to camp.


--- Quote from: avv on January 27, 2010, 05:23:42 pm ---The reason why I think npc factions should have bigger role is that players who don't want to be involved in intense player controlled clan game schemes is this:
Being in clan has a social burden. You have this "feel of responsibility" when you're running an event with your gangmates. It's not proper to leave in the middle of enlonged fight because it could mean your faction could lose. Having npc factions players could enjoy being in a society without the responsibility to constantly work for the common good, or to wonder who's gonna have to mine more ore or take less stuff from cabinets. Neither you'd need to discuss the faction's policies because it has certain laws that everyone agrees on (to murder or not to murder). You could gain fame, wealth and power by being a respected member of that faction or just hang around there because of the security the city offers. Besides, you could pick the guys inside this npc faction whom you want to co-operate with.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somehow not many people are really willing to enjoy their membership in the Enclave or the Vault City. Maybe because, you know, having your own faction that is actually 100% player driven instead of being a collection of repetitive scripts is, you know, more fun ::)


--- Quote from: avv on January 27, 2010, 05:23:42 pm ---I'm quite sure that everyone is somewhat interested in changing the game world, even thought they might not care about the glory of Vault City. But to change the bigger schemes it would have to happen through npc factions because only they got the manpower and materials. You think some random "The Westside Roughboys" gang could ever take over ncr? Ncr has 10k soldiers. Good luck.

--- End quote ---
That's why best you could hope for in the NCR is stirring up the slums for a few minutes. It's already there. As for changing the bigger schemes - as you've said, those factions are a) npc driven, b) have no business in open military confrontation and c) too big to be influenced by some random wasteland dudes.


--- Quote from: avv on January 27, 2010, 05:23:42 pm ---But if you want to raid modoc, kill or enslave everyone there, it sounds plausible.

--- End quote ---
That's why TC is restricted to the smaller towns.

avv:

--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on January 27, 2010, 05:39:34 pm ---What does it mean to powergame? We're doing the same stuff raiders did in FO2, only we're doing it in a more efficient manner because we're, you know, humans and this is a player driven environment.
--- End quote ---

Yeah right. Being player driven enviroment alone changes all your goals. I bet that you're just doing everything that's possible, rather than doing what raiders would do. If you could force everyone in the game to carry an apple on their primary slot and worship brahmins, you'd do it just out of interest. Killing people and taking their stuff just happens to be the most interesting way to interact with other players right now. 


--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on January 27, 2010, 05:39:34 pm --- And what do you mean by changing the gameworld? There were at least 3 historical events that basically reshaped the wasteland po-wipe:
- BBS domination
- NA was formed
- DA was formed
... and all of these influenced basically EVERYONE including the NCR dwellers whether they have the honesty to admit it or not. The fact that one side is blasting the other more, hence gathering more stuff is enough to change the gameworld and actually have a lot of influence on the towns the given faction choses to
camp.
--- End quote ---

I don't know a single DA member, let alone NA. I don't even know which faction member you are. From my point of view the only influence the gangs seem to have on the game world is to make the unguarded towns unsafe, fill the worldmap with caravan cars and occasionally try to stir up some confusion in guarded towns. Basically none of the unguarded towns have something so important that a player has to visit them more than once, so camping there doesn't have such a big impact on the game world.

By changing the world I mean simply changing something of the gameworld towards your own favour. For example right now there's no way to defeat or conquer anyone for extended time period. If you're a gang who decides to establish their own rules and laws in Den, they may do it for 8 hours in row but when they leave its all for nothing. There's no way to declare that you have gained a significant checkpoint in the timeline of the server. I would call it an achievement if some group could establish their own city in the middle of all this chaos.


--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on January 27, 2010, 05:39:34 pm ---Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somehow not many people are really willing to enjoy their membership in the Enclave or the Vault City. Maybe because, you know, having your own faction that is actually 100% player driven instead of being a collection of repetitive scripts is, you know, more fun ::)
That's why best you could hope for in the NCR is stirring up the slums for a few minutes. It's already there. As for changing the bigger schemes - as you've said, those factions are a) npc driven, b) have no business in open military confrontation and c) too big to be influenced by some random wasteland dudes.
That's why TC is restricted to the smaller towns.
--- End quote ---

Players could choose the factions whiches rules suit them best. Raiders, slavers and New Reno gangs would be closest to total anarcy. NCR rangers and brotherhood would be the wasteland police, but with rules that prevent cruelty towards innocents. Because players that are fans of total anarchy would basically destroy the whole world if they could, their factions have to have limited power.

There's nowhere near clear picture how exactly this whole npc faction system could work. There's no telling yet how and how much players should be allowed to change the npc faction's policy or extend its influence over the wasteland. But it certainly doesn't have to be repetitive scripts. Maybe a player could become the general of vault city's security forces, the president of ncr or the leader of raiders. He would have to make decisions that make the faction stronger, not fuck it up.

However I do admit that freedom to have your own gang and being part of its conquest over the gameworld is fascinating. This fascination is the engine that runs many mmo games but in those games there are always rules, boundaries and common goals which all the gangs follow or they perish or fail have any influence.

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