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Author Topic: Shotguns in Fonline  (Read 13708 times)

Retrogator

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Shotguns in Fonline
« on: April 14, 2010, 01:53:49 am »

Here are my two cents on shotguns.

The problem with the shotguns in Fonline is their role in combat overlaps with ‘other rifles’. As a result, small gunners who are choosing a weapon lump them in the same category and come to the same conclusion that they are sub-par when compared with other rifles of the same tier. The value of shotguns is essentially deflated because other rifles can do everything a shotgun can, except better. Consider the following issues:

(I) Seeing as the max range of most shotguns is short, approx. 12/14/16, this hardly requires any investment in Small Guns skill points to achieve 95% chance to hit. Thus the +20% bonus to hit from the accurate perk is only a minor advantage at best, beneficial only to low-leveled characters with low SG or to non-combative characters who still want to use a gun. Not nearly an enticing enough bonus for a dedicated small gunner to consider seriously, seeing how in most cases the +20% hit will be redundant. Compared with long ranged rifles, the +% to hit from the long perk becomes an essential bonus, especially in long-distance night encounters.

(II) Even though the high tier shotguns: combat shotgun/CAWS/Pancor do 15-25 dmg single shot, which is a fair bit of dmg, the short range makes it impractical compared to lets say a sniper rifle, which does even more dmg (14-34) at close range with single shot, yet also has the advantage to shoot much farther. If someone does decide to use a shotgun for single-shot, it would have to be an aimed-shot to yield comparable damage as a rifle. Nonetheless, this in itself is a pretty ridiculous concept when you think of the spray in a shotgun shot. 

(III) The burst function is also short ranged and far too limited in damage. With a 0%-DR ammo modifier, it will hardly put a scratch on armored targets. But of course, shotguns aren’t supposed to be used against things that are heavily armored because they don’t penetrate well, so changing the %-DR on the ammo would only serve to make them stronger then they practically should be. As it stands, even a basic rifle (like the assault rifle) can burst for better damage than a combat shotgun, let alone has much farther range.

(IV) The high tier shotguns are not cheap either. Compare it to high tier rifles and you’ll see they are similar in cost. If they do less damage and have shorter range, why should anyone pay the same amount of money, or resources, to get one? As it stands, shotguns are more of a vanity and role-playing weapon. That being said, the sawed-off shotgun is a perfect example of this. Put up against the regular shotgun, it sacrifices 5 range for only +2 max damage. But don’t get me wrong, it makes up for its bad combat capabilities by giving me a damn good feeling when I shoot and reload it. It might be the most shafted gun in the entire game, but it’s definitely the most satisfying gun to hold in my hands.

Solutions:
Increase their range? No
Make the ammo better? No
Make them cheaper? No
Change the role it plays as a combat weapon? Yes

Personally I think Fallout Tactics had it right. The shotguns in that game were not able to do aimed shots, only normal single shot and burst. To compensate, normal single shots had the added bonus of having a wide spread (similar to the AoE of bursting), whereas the burst option would be similar, but dish out more damage at the expense of more AP and ammo. This gave shotguns their own unique role – to instigate fights against clusters of enemies in short-mid range. Damage is only maximized when there were at least 2-3 enemies close together, and it would fall short of dealing good damage if it was just one target. When it came down to close-mid range crowd-control, their total DPS would excel. Rifles, on the other hand, would fulfill the role of single target ranged fighting and could not compare in damage to shotguns, even when bursting into groups at close range. Because rifles and shotguns did not overlap in combat function, both were valued weapons to have. Furthermore, the easy access of shotguns made it a cheap alternative to using grenades, rocket launchers, and miniguns in those who lacked the proficiency to use them, or couldn't afford them.
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vedaras

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Re: Shotguns in Fonline
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2010, 02:22:21 am »

i thinkg changing perk from accurate to "knockdown" or something like that would do the trick. I mean if you would have possibility to knock down when bursting then they should be useful, and it would be both realistic and interesting for game :>
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 02:24:45 am by vedaras »
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Izual

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Re: Shotguns in Fonline
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2010, 10:33:34 am »

Knockback, vedaras, not knockdown.
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gordulan

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Re: Shotguns in Fonline
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2010, 10:47:44 am »

yeah, the big difference is that shotguns still have no spread, therefore every one of your shells will hit the designated target in a burst unles there is someone who breaks the line of fire (raider in front or another raider, you're aiming at the one farther away) if i'm not mistaken.
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avv

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Re: Shotguns in Fonline
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2010, 11:17:02 am »

Good ideas retrogator. Along with the spread, shotties could also knock people down like vederas said. At least when and if we ever get slug rounds.
If the engine will allow to have 2 perks on a gun or bullets with perks.
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vedaras

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Re: Shotguns in Fonline
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2010, 11:29:42 am »

Knockback, vedaras, not knockdown.

well correct me if im wrong, but knockback doesnt increase chance to be knocked down, just if you are knocked down, you fly away significant distance. And shotguns would need increased chance to knock down.

Izual

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Re: Shotguns in Fonline
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2010, 11:30:50 am »

I don't think increasing Shotgun's chance to knock down would make the PvP battles any better. But that's imo.
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Marko69

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Re: Shotguns in Fonline
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2010, 11:51:14 am »

Rocket has knockdown and knockback, there you go...
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TuX

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Re: Shotguns in Fonline
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2010, 01:10:31 pm »

That's a very good idea Retrogator. I remebre using shoties till the end of Fo:T. It was soooo satysifing to rip a cluster of raiders/mutants/ghuls to shreds with a double barel shot of your trusted Shotgun. But still I'dont belive that people would suddely change their snipers to to shoties.
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Lordus

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Re: Shotguns in Fonline
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2010, 02:11:11 pm »

As i said before, the problem is, that in wasteland after nuclear war, there are many hi tech guns like miniguns, rocket launchers, sniper rfiles laser rifles.. I would rahter see mad max guns, that this.

 Shotgun will be always useless, because this is short range weapon. I can imagine, that victim of robbery run tu the house, wait near corner, and when attacker enters the room, you will burst him by SG. But this is utopia, because he will have LSW/minigun with 3 bursts and zero penalty for using (speed, reloading,...) so you will die.

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Izual

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Re: Shotguns in Fonline
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2010, 02:15:14 pm »

As i said before, the problem is, that in wasteland after nuclear war, there are many hi tech guns like miniguns, rocket launchers, sniper rfiles laser rifles.. I would rahter see mad max guns, that this.

Seconded. Top tier weapons should remain rare. But that's also devs vision, I think, so stay tuned. This kind of things is hard to balance.
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avv

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Re: Shotguns in Fonline
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2010, 04:13:25 pm »

Seconded. Top tier weapons should remain rare. But that's also devs vision, I think, so stay tuned. This kind of things is hard to balance.

But basically every big gun and energy weapon does terrible damage except some 1st level guns. Every big gun after flamer is able to deliver huge ammount of damage from close range, whereas energy weapons cause hideous critical hits. You cannot balance the guns mad max style as long as there are 3 differend gun builds, unless you want that big guns use 90% of their time with flamer because other guns are considered rare due to their damage. Energy weapons would have to stick with laser pistol for same ammount of time for the same reasons, while small gunners would have lots of fun because of the great variety of differend low level weapons.
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Johnny Nuclear

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Re: Shotguns in Fonline
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2010, 04:14:22 pm »

As i said before, the problem is, that in wasteland after nuclear war, there are many hi tech guns like miniguns, rocket launchers, sniper rfiles laser rifles.. I would rahter see mad max guns, that this.

 Shotgun will be always useless, because this is short range weapon. I can imagine, that victim of robbery run tu the house, wait near corner, and when attacker enters the room, you will burst him by SG. But this is utopia, because he will have LSW/minigun with 3 bursts and zero penalty for using (speed, reloading,...) so you will die.



or you will hit him to eyes for instant or knock

btw i think this is Fallout not mad max
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 04:15:59 pm by Johnny Nuclear »
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Lordus

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Re: Shotguns in Fonline
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2010, 04:58:24 pm »

or you will hit him to eyes for instant or knock

btw i think this is Fallout not mad max

 Dont worry Johnny, they were not able to balance guns in past 8 months, they are not able to do it in next year.
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FischiPiSti

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Re: Shotguns in Fonline
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2010, 05:01:56 pm »

Seconded. Top tier weapons should remain rare. But that's also devs vision, I think, so stay tuned. This kind of things is hard to balance.
OFF: Increasing crafting times/more resources wont help, as people wont stop crafting untill they get that item. Increasing the gun/ammo value only makes mines more crowded.

All weapon categories need unique advantages, over one another so they are desirable. And im talking about same tier weapons obviously... Pistols, shotguns, snipers, miniguns, grenades, melee etc. Well melee is dead as long as you cant run to target, and fast shot doesnt affect it(unarmed has higher chance to crit)
Pistols? Hmm if a crippled arm would prevent using 2h weapons then im sure more people would carry sidearms :S
Shotguns? What the others said, a knockback perk would be fine, BUT only for high tier weapons, so basic shotguns would still be a good choice for starting players
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HtH suggestions: Melee: +DR(PA)
Unarmed: +AC(active sneak should boost AC as they are "less visible")
General "class" idea pool in the form of new perks with high skillrequirements: http://anarchyonline.wikia.com/wiki/Professions
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