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[Solar]

Luck - a combat shotgun is basically a 10mm SMG using the right kind of ammo (JHP vs low armour, AP vs high) - so it was an even fight in terms of equipment.

[Tyler]

How does luck factor into a burst from 1 hex away with no crits involved?

[Solar]

I mean real life luck, not the SPECIAL Luck

[Tyler]

Im not sure about you sometimes Solar.On the one hand you respond to more posts than any other dev and on the other hand you bend about as much as a brick wall.

[Solar]

Heh, I change my mind all the time, it just has to be achieved by a good arguement.

[strelok]

I can give you an example of a sittuation I was in.I have a character with the kamikazee trait and I ran into a guy in waterworks with a combat shotgun,he caught me as i was coming around a corner and from 1 hex away he bursted me for around 45-50 damage which is about half my hp and I was wearing only Leather mk1 armor.I bursted him with my 10mm smg right afterthat from the same distance and dealt a whopping 150+ without even a crit and blew him to peices.He was wearing the same armor i was and his was even in better shape.I felt like I should have been the one laying on the ground in peices instead of the other way around.

It's all about how many of the bullets hit your target. The higher your weapon skill the better chance of landing each bullet. Also, bonus ranged damage 2 doesn't hurt either. + some crit perks and you have a good chance to deal nice damage.

[Tyler]

Thanks Strelok but im not looking for tips since i already know all of that,I was simply trying to give an example of shotguns being a bit underpowered.As far as not every bullet hitting is concerned I have to laugh a bit sometimes because at the distance of 1 hex from a target I feel like accuracy shouldnt even be an issue.As for weapons skill is concerned,it only reinforces my beleif that he should have owned me because my doctors skill at that point was only 120%.

[Gatling]

Knockback may be a little messed up to consider, but actually having its use may not be that bad of a thing.  Comparing a shotgun face to face with a minigun or other long range weapon, makes no sense.  The game is not a box. Every fight does not happen the same, over open ground. 

Imagine using that shotgun in an urban setting.  It's a nice little terrorist weapon.  You see someone, you burst, knock them on their ass, then proceed to either gank them with more burst spam and keep them down, or hide.  This is the same reason why I enjoyed playing with just GRENADES against full BG and other PvP builds.  While crappy and low dmg to armored opponents, they could keep someone on their back indefinitely sometimes.  I still remember the time I killed that BG in CA using just about.. 20-25 grenades.   

Anyway, it's a Shotgun.  Treat it as such.  It is not a MG. It does not shoot explodey things, not normally, though it'd be funny to see.  Shotguns are excellent skirmish and guerilla type weaponry, maybe some should treat it as such.  Knockback would make it even better for the role.  A god-gun? No, doubtful, but certainly useful if someone stops thinking of the mass-charge tactics. 

But what do I know. :/

[blahblah]

Man Solar you really crack me up with all this math bro.Do you ever test all these figures out in the game?I dont really make it a point to stop and discuss numbers while im being torn to shred by a minigun.Maybe I should give it a shot some time.

You are discussing one-time situations whereas Solar actually has the game mechanics sheet and tells you the number. Noticed that huge difference of 18-29 (11 points!) versus the tiny 8-11 (just 3) of Pancor and Avenger?
In short, this means that whereas damage with the shotgun can vary hugely, the minigun has pretty consistent results. When counting averages you do just that. To see such an average you'd need to take note of hundreds of bursts and compare those. In your limited experience you could, however, notice that shotguns are shit because in the handful of situations the bullets might have had a low roll (between 18 and 24) and thus dealt noticeably less damage (even just 30 if unlucky). On the other hand, an extremely lucky burst can do up to 63 damage to a bloke in CA.
(I did not factor in AP cost as Solar did, it's a factor in statistics too, but in real life you don't notice that)

But it's true that they're weaker. I mean, it's a minigun, they do serious damage :p

[vedaras]

Knockback may be a little messed up to consider, but actually having its use may not be that bad of a thing.  Comparing a shotgun face to face with a minigun or other long range weapon, makes no sense.  The game is not a box. Every fight does not happen the same, over open ground.  

Imagine using that shotgun in an urban setting.  It's a nice little terrorist weapon.  You see someone, you burst, knock them on their ass, then proceed to either gank them with more burst spam and keep them down, or hide.  This is the same reason why I enjoyed playing with just GRENADES against full BG and other PvP builds.  While crappy and low dmg to armored opponents, they could keep someone on their back indefinitely sometimes.  I still remember the time I killed that BG in CA using just about.. 20-25 grenades.  

Anyway, it's a Shotgun.  Treat it as such.  It is not a MG. It does not shoot explodey things, not normally, though it'd be funny to see.  Shotguns are excellent skirmish and guerilla type weaponry, maybe some should treat it as such.  Knockback would make it even better for the role.  A god-gun? No, doubtful, but certainly useful if someone stops thinking of the mass-charge tactics.  

But what do I know. :/

man pancor jackhammer is weapon that needs most materials for crafting (now recipes changed, so maybe i do not know something, but it still has to be at least one of those in top), so it has to be damn good in close combat, as close combat is the only situation it can be used in.

[Bulldog]

Well, if Solar would be nice enough to solve this situation just by testing the damn Pankor and Avendger in game, using AP ammo VS a CA, especially nice it would be against a 2 Toughness person, that would be great. Solar, i'm sure your opinion would change dramatically.

[Bulldog]

And seriosly, people stop telling shit that a shotgun is an RP weapon, RP is a really strange thing, the RP people should not be mentioned as this is a totally different part of the game, they may do some uncommon shit, as like i dunno, something completely worthless, irrational for example, they get the fun out of all this, there is often no sense in their actions.

We are discussing, why and what should be done to make the game better, to give people a choice between not only a Minigun, Sniper rifle, LSW,P90,Assault Rifle, Lazer rifle or maybe Plazma and Granedes, but also shotguns, the high tier ones that stand no chance VS other weapons right now.

Edit by Avant : try not to write one post after another, just edit your old one

[avv]

We are discussing, why and what should be done to make the game better, to give people a choice between not only a Minigun, Sniper rifle, LSW,P90,Assault Rifle, Lazer rifle or maybe Plazma and Granedes, but also shotguns, the high tier ones that stand no chance VS other weapons right now.

It's a good vision, achieving it may demand big changes to whole pvp system.

[vedaras]

It's a good vision, achieving it may demand big changes to whole pvp system.

thats what open beta is for, to balance everything :>

[Tyler]

You really like giving people shit blahblah.I gave 1 example and i could give others but to be honest i dont really think its necassary as im not the only one on this thread giving their opinion.Maybe your right about my limited experiance since ive only been around for about 9 months but i feel like its been long enough for me to know how much i dislike shotgun due to their overall lack of power compared to other classes.I guess you could say that my experiance in hardcore PvP is limited but i would only tell you that TC isnt the only place to run into CArmored killers when your carrying a shotgun.I appreciate your input on the conversation i was having with Solar but im pretty sure it was already done and over with.If you notice i dont really respond to players very often because in reality its the devs who have the info and make the decisions but please feel free to comment on any other posts i make in the future.

Have a nice day