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[avv]

So nerf critical hits for snipers. There is no different for sniper if opponent wear combat armor or not.

One of the best things about crits is exactly the fact that your gear won't help you. They kind of ignore wealth, poor man's self defense. Good for everyone regardless of gear, similar benefits should be extended to big guns aswell. Overpowering enemies with best gear is just awful and drives away potential pvp participants. Main reason why I didn't pvp past wipes was because I hadn't invented a cheap enough build to uphold.

I'd rather suggest more reliability and predictability from crits, but less over the top effects like -20 ap knockouts and instakills.

You don't get it. Last session, minigunner was a good class but sniper as well! Sometimes there were TC with teams of full snipers, and almost all fights had some, often as much as big gunner. There were also few grenaders who were often very usefull in some situations. And you know what? All those classes were fine and good, and it's why you were seeing all of this. Now what we have? No grenaders, no minigunners, and a lot of RL, snipers, and some energy guys.

Guess so, can't say you're wrong.

A good class is just a class who can win against other ones, depending on situation. Now, even in situations where they should have the advantage, minigunners suck, and are slaughtered.

But where are minigunners supposed to have advantage?

[Crazy]

Hehe... just a few. Most of them play as an energy sniper because dont have SG sniper. Laser rifle is only a little better than minigurn.

I am taking about plasma rifles as well ;p In redding foe they can be pretty effective. But well, laser rifle defend himself and can be deadly against rocketter
Anyway :

But where are minigunners supposed to have advantage?

From 35 to 24 hex... (and from 35 to 1 hex against snipers)

[Solar]

I dont see any reason to play as a big gunner.

1. Nerfed armor piercing ammo and their range made miniguns useless on town control(nowadays we use only sniper rifles and rocket launchers)
2. Autoaim for everyone. Now every single crippler with BB gun can take every single big gunner with avanger minigun or light support weapon. It was common fact before implementing auto aim but today its even easier.
3. Hard to craft and hard to get for lonely player.

Big guns only for masochists?

I've not got all day to read every post, so I'll just respond to the original.

1. The only real difference between when everyone was using Avengers and now is drugs and fast shot. Drugs affected snipers and RL equally, so only real difference is fast shot. RL were equally affected by fast shot being nerfed, so there's no real reason that RL should now be amazing compared to Avengers.

Snipers were always meant to get a nerf from Armour/Helmets reducing the critical chance (or critical roll) and crit defense perks. Both of these things will still happen to reduce Snipers down. Eventually snipers will also get their small nerf to go down to the same level as all the burst weapons did.

When all the new perks come in and we have a reasonable period of the weapons, the drugs, the perks and domination mode (as well as fixes to the flood of caps, awesomeness of mercs, availability of top gear at traders for crap and prices for weapons/ammo that reflect their new power levels) all at the correct levels - then we can have a proper discussion about what needs boosting and what's fine.

Hell, we might even have 3D models and be able to sort out animation speeds to allow single shot DPS builds to work properly


2. Autoaim/run are only good things imo.

3. Prices reflect how good weaons used to be and not the current situation. Next wipe will see prices changed a lot.

If anything else came up in the other pages feel free to tell me

[manero]

Solar u could said: "Its fine as it is" ech...

and just like many said, i should not open this thread. It was pointless. I failed.


Manero >>---(x_x)---> death came in an instant... Bow to the auto aim snipers. This is the end of miniguns.

[avv]

From 35 to 24 hex... (and from 35 to 1 hex against snipers)

If you balance guns only based on effective range, we're going to have serious lack of tactical options. Pistols, smgs, automatic rifles and shotguns won't have their place at all. Smg takes 2 less aps to fire than minigun and ar 1, it's all the same because minigun just rips them to shreds with first strike.
There has to be other things to be taken into account than just range. In games where machine guns exist, they are used in support. It means that they are slow to react when encountering enemy, but very effective when prepared to secure an area. Fonline doesn't have options for this kind of settings, there's no guns suitable for "support" or "assault" because they all fire instantly.

[Crazy]

If you balance guns only based on effective range, we're going to have serious lack of tactical options. Pistols, smgs, automatic rifles and shotguns won't have their place at all. Smg takes 2 less aps to fire than minigun and ar 1, it's all the same because minigun just rips them to shreds with first strike.
There has to be other things to be taken into account than just range. In games where machine guns exist, they are used in support. It means that they are slow to react when encountering enemy, but very effective when prepared to secure an area. Fonline doesn't have options for this kind of settings, there's no guns suitable for "support" or "assault" because they all fire instantly.

I am talking about balancing actual engine and combat system. Change the whole engine to allow a place for smgs is another discussion... Anyway, all discussion is pointless coz Solar said "we gonna balance it ny nerfing snipers as well". The only problem is they nerf things one by one, and some classes are disadventaged during the delay between the nerf. Instead they should make a big rebalance when everything is ready, but see big gunners crying is funny I guess.

[Surf]

The only problem is they nerf things one by one, and some classes are disadventaged during the delay between the nerf.

You seem to forget that this is a beta test and things like that happen in beta tests.

[Crazy]

You seem to forget that this is a beta test and things like that happen in beta tests.

I didn't forget, but it is obvious that when you nerf things one by one, you spend some time in meanless testing as you are testing a situation that will change by another nerf soon.

[Surf]

By that logic, you shouldn't play the game at all, as everything can change in one way or another.

[Crazy]

By that logic, you shouldn't play the game at all, as everything can change in one way or another.

You got a point, but I still think they should have wait to have finished crit table / anti crit perks and armor before nerfing avenger ;p

[Jenna]

me do good as bgunner with avenger :p
251hp and can 2x burst.
just dont stand middle of nowhere without cover ;P;P

[manero]

me do good as bgunner with avenger :p
251hp and can 2x burst.
just dont stand middle of nowhere without cover ;P;P

Master.

[avv]

You got a point, but I still think they should have wait to have finished crit table / anti crit perks and armor before nerfing avenger ;p

Sometimes unexpected outcomes may result from medicore tweaks.

But as you said, we'd better wait and see how crits get changed.

[Solar]

It was never meant to take so long, we had a delay getting the helmets ready and then when they were ready I was moving house - which is still going on.

In the end it was only a nerf of 16.7% or so, its not such a big change that it becomes impossible to be a big gunner. The first little nerf to snipers also happened, with Stonewall.

I think the biggest thing will actually be domination mode - this will provide "fair" arenas, so better comparisons can be made.

[kttdestroyer]

Is there a thread where i can find out about this Domination mode?

I've not got all day to read every post, so I'll just respond to the original.

1. The only real difference between when everyone was using Avengers and now is drugs and fast shot. Drugs affected snipers and RL equally, so only real difference is fast shot. RL were equally affected by fast shot being nerfed, so there's no real reason that RL should now be amazing compared to Avengers.

Snipers were always meant to get a nerf from Armour/Helmets reducing the critical chance (or critical roll) and crit defense perks. Both of these things will still happen to reduce Snipers down. Eventually snipers will also get their small nerf to go down to the same level as all the burst weapons did.

When all the new perks come in and we have a reasonable period of the weapons, the drugs, the perks and domination mode (as well as fixes to the flood of caps, awesomeness of mercs, availability of top gear at traders for crap and prices for weapons/ammo that reflect their new power levels) all at the correct levels - then we can have a proper discussion about what needs boosting and what's fine.

Hell, we might even have 3D models and be able to sort out animation speeds to allow single shot DPS builds to work properly

Sounds intresting. I like the last part especially.