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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: avv on October 07, 2010, 03:15:41 pm
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I've got a report about pve crits. First,here's (http://img85.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=screen07102010133458.jpg) some pics of me getting pwned by random encounters just to show what I'm talking about.
I've been hunting geckos, ghouls, weak humans and whatnot the past week. The combat mode was real time. It appears that among all the chaos of real time you can still micro yourself somewhat to gain advantage and defeat your npc enemy. It's allright as long as the enemies deal raw damage because then you can keep track on your hitpoints and use first aid, healing ingredients, kill the right target first or just flee.
However it seems that when it comes to crits, your personal microing skill no longer helps. Then it's just about good luck and lots of hitpoints. Worst crits are the ones that cause long knockouts (-20 ap) or massive 3x or 2x bypass damage. Sudden and random big damage impacts or long lasting immobility are both very bad features when it comes to pve (immobility is also bad pvp feature). That's because fighting pve is all about planning and predicting the most likely behaviour of your enemies. You can't plan that you get knocked out or die suddenly, neither can you adapt to the sudden impact because you're either dead or immobile. Fighting should always reward thinking and acting but crits are too unpredictable to expect and their result are sometimes impossible to adapt to.
Because of fear of random crits I simply decided to carry as little as possible, usually just a spear or knife and not even think about armors because of bypasses.
It's a solution, but retarded one since it's the exact opposite a smart wastelander would do: arm himself with the best gear available.
I don't support farming encounters for random crap or making npcs easier but I support the removal of exorbitant randomness when it comes to fighting them.
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you want things to not crit in pve? i fail to understand how that could be beneficial. seems to me like you're just bored of leveling solo... if you dont bring a wing man, those knockout/bypass criticals can be deadly.
the solution to this is not to nerf the system but to bring a friend... if you continually choose to go solo then that is one of the risks.
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I think that knockout crits should be removed for small critters as rats, pigrats etc. Come on, how getting bite in a toe can knock you out? The rest should stay as they are.
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you want things to not crit in pve? i fail to understand how that could be beneficial. seems to me like you're just bored of leveling solo... if you dont bring a wing man, those knockout/bypass criticals can be deadly.
the solution to this is not to nerf the system but to bring a friend... if you continually choose to go solo then that is one of the risks.
I know a friend would help, but he probably doesn't want to hang around for dozens and dozens of encounters. Besides it's rather hard to co-operate in the chaotic real time combat. You can't shout for help if you're knocked out. Use mumble of irc? That's just not right because they are off-game programs
But like I said, I already have a solution: don't carry anything expensive. It just depletes the gaming experience.
I'd rather tone down the crits so that they are more common and deal simply pure - but lower damage or cause cripples. No long knockouts or 3x bypass damages. In addition armors should have bigger effect on crits.
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you're first problem is that you are using a knife
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And trying it up against Tough Nightkin. Armor or not you might as well just bend over.
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The whole point of critical attacks are that they're unexpected. That's what makes them critical. Something can't critically harm you if you're prepared for it, you can't dodge, etc. However, what's your luck? Critical hits against you won't be as bad if your luck is higher. They will still be critical, but not as bad. A knockdown instead of a knockout, perhaps.
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I have 10 LK and 6 EN, molerats were knocking me out very often, they usually were dead before reach me, but... if they reach me, then it's knock downs after knock downs, or just knock out.
When I hunting junktown scouts, the first shot may knock out me, and then they starting to do with me what they are wish.
Crazies with scavenger skin are 100% all sniper builds, because they almost always crit with thier deagles and smgs, there're more crits than regular shots.
But Raiders and Regulators seems have bad LK, and they shoot me many times and I can't remember any critical shot at all, but it mostly because they, atleast Regulators, don't do aimed shots at all to players, while ghouls and JT scouts always aiming groin, head and eyes.
Well as avv already said, and I doing that myself... just don't carry anything valuable with you when hunting, all I take with me is a smg and some 10mm, that's all, because armor won't protect you against crits, and if it's not crit, then you don't even need an armor, because non-crit hits aren't so painful.
I don't have Stonewall perk, and it's really annoying when I have like 4 or 5 knock downs in a row, some rats may keep you on the same hex and even make you full APs negative by simply knocking you down many times in a row.
But it's just real life luck, and it's ok, even if they won't crit you, I don't see any reason to wear any armor while hunting anyway. Even against master army, bluesuit and smg is enough, especially if they have rocketlauncherer, who will help you to kill his friends. Plus death in bluesuiter with crappy smg, which is farmable at many encounters and you have 34857968 of them is nothing, but spending time to get from respawn point to your tent/base again.
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The whole point of critical attacks are that they're unexpected. That's what makes them critical. Something can't critically harm you if you're prepared for it, you can't dodge, etc. However, what's your luck? Critical hits against you won't be as bad if your luck is higher. They will still be critical, but not as bad. A knockdown instead of a knockout, perhaps.
Sure they can be unexpected, but their outcome isn't rational in terms of enjoyable gameplay. You can always react to sudden loss of more health than expected or cripples but not immobolity or massive lethal damage. If you're immobile or dying, you can't react and adapt to the new situation. In combat the player should always be given a chance to adapt, react and think himself through problems. Until he really is dead ofcourse.
My luck is 6.
you're first problem is that you are using a knife
Doesn't honestly matter. You can gain only very limited advantage from ranged attack a gun provides in real time. After that it's just normal beating and banging and regenerating action points. Especially against humans who run as fast as you do.
And trying it up against Tough Nightkin. Armor or not you might as well just bend over.
Actually I didn't even want to fight, just run. So I was basically doomed the moment I landed in that encounter.
I have 10 LK and 6 EN, molerats were knocking me out very often..
Thanks for new information Ravenous. I hadn't even thought about enemy's luck.
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I don't have Stonewall perk, and it's really annoying when I have like 4 or 5 knock downs in a row, some rats may keep you on the same hex and even make you full APs negative by simply knocking you down many times in a row.
If you find it annoying, the perk is there. Player's descision.
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With changing Stonewall perk to make it useful you also overpowered the basic knockdown/knockout chance, so you are being constantly knocked down/out if you don't have it?
Fail.
Or you didn't do anything to the tables?
Then not fail.
Critical hits against you won't be as bad if your luck is higher.
W00t
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If you find it annoying, the perk is there. Player's descision.
Boost also quick recovery please! ;p
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Pretty sure your luck doesn't effect their critical chance. Since their luck is not factored into our chance to crit them.
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Pretty sure your luck doesn't effect their critical chance. Since their luck is not factored into our chance to crit them.
True, only Endurance and perks do anythin about crits.
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True, only Endurance and perks do anythin about crits.
Nope, both LK and EN affects crits on you.
EN protects you from being knocked down and out, and crippling limbs.
LK protects you from being blinded and instakilled.
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Or you didn't do anything to the tables?
Then not fail.
Nothing has been done to the tables in a long while. Stonewall is working on the same table thats been there for months.
LK protects you from being blinded and instakilled.
And bypasses
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If you find it annoying, the perk is there. Player's descision.
Well, I have the perk with 10EN, and still die sometimes because of KO (with lot of raging)... Tough i dunno how much I avoid, I still see the one which take me down and cause my death. That's why i would like to see quick recovery better ;p I prefer stay always 2 sec on ground than sometimes 10.
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you only need 5 AG for quick recovery, if they make it better requirements must be balanced as well
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you only need 5 AG for quick recovery, if they make it better requirements must be balanced as well
What about some test against AG to see how many AP you don't loose or something like that, to work like stonewall. And maybe add AG 6-8 to be balanced with stonewall.
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With 10 En you are ignoring half of the knockouts you would otherwise have suffered.
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With 10 En you are ignoring half of the knockouts you would otherwise have suffered.
Yes, but there is the other half ;p
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So basically only certain builds can pve alone quite safely. But because they invested perks and stats for that they suck at somewhere else. This kind of setting is common in pure team games. In such games there are classes who can for example take lots of damage but cant deal long range situations, some classes can heal but are bad at combat. It works but only when the whole team is together. In fonline we're mostly alone, or hanging around with similar builds. We don't "spawn" in groups or go to perform tasks in groups automatically. Every build has some speciality but because you are bad at some other things and there's nobody to back up the shortage the outcome is failure... unless you alt.
Because fonline is not pure team game, the builds cannot have the characteristics of a team game classes. This means that perks and stats providing very specified bonuses don't suit fonline. Surely we should specialize and have roles, but what comes to fighting such roles cannot be ripped from team game because we don't always fight in teams. Some skills and abilities should just come by default, but as active, not passive abilities. So instead of having for example stonewall completely remove some effects of explosions, we should have an ability to watch out from incoming rocket and stonewall could provide bonus to that ability.
So basically what comes to better survival in encounters the game is telling us to either get in a group or start alting.
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avv you are so wrong...
Fonline IS A TEAM GAME
If you have just 1 person to back you up and cover your ass in case. Again, about similar classes. They are all different.
If you have 10 friend each with 1- 2 char you can think which of your char to pick to make team most effective depending on task.
Fonline is not a team game for guys who want to be on their own. They make alts or even mults for taxi, craft, farm and PVP. But it sucks and boring.
The best part of FONLINE is people. So if getting death from some npcs, its so...
For pure solo play F2 is so much better )
So basically what comes to better survival in encounters the game is telling us to either get in a group or start alting.
You dont need to be apart of group. just a bunch of random players who will fight with you. Or sell you something you need.
Once again for pure solo you char must have specific characteristics. But its up to you - what is YOUR role in this game. It RPG after all
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Fonline IS A TEAM GAME
Nope. In team games we automatically spawn among our teams and cannot be separated from it. Fonline just has the option to team up.
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2238 is "faction mod" for a reason.
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Nobody has still stated how long unconsciousness and 3x damage bypass crits are good features.
2238 is "faction mod" for a reason.
I know. But it's still not pure team game. Unless we start spawning in fixed locations with our gangs and do everything together it is pure team game. Look at wow, for example. There every class has its specialization for teamwork but have also full capabilities to adventure and roam the world alone. Being alone doesn't always mean it's bad for multiplayer because a player who travels alone does add to the multiplayer experience. He might want to trade with trading players because he can't produce everything, he meets people, fights them, avoids them or might team up for a short while with regulars of some place.
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Well, anyway, ATM, KO is almost as bad as insta death, and even with stonewall and 10EN, 3/4 time I die in PvP fight is because of a nasty KO.
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I agree that this game is too much about luck.
The single player fallout was not build for multiplayer. We can just look how perks work, you need 4 endurence for lifefgiver, you need 7 perception for sharpshooter. Meaning, its a lot about Very High skill and Very low skill. The higher the skill you have, the bigger it can get, which is not good for balance.