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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Saumax on September 15, 2010, 12:33:47 pm
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First thing from me, this topic is not whining or something, i created it to find solution with other players and 2238 staff for increasing boredom problem.
There is few points in my opinion why this game get boring very quick:
1. Hey look! you have the same gun as me! (Small ammount of items) - we have few guns, few armors(definetly too low ammount) and few other items, now second part of this point will be in point #2
2. Clone Wars - everything here is the same, the same items everywhere, the same builds everywhere, the same sprites everywhere, the same encounters everywhere, everything is the same, player is just another ordinary little blue guy, the only thing what can tell you he is diffrent from others is just his name, so connecting this point with point 1: ammount of items should be increased a lot, players should be able to customize their PC outfit(yeah we can change a hair, but it is really customization?)
3. Oh god, take me from this hell (Drasticaly decrasing number of players) - few months ago we had 350-400+ players online constantly, now i didn't saw even 300 players online, old players run away to ob2/tla or stop playing, new players finish playing after few days-week, what cause this disaster? lets begin from new players, its almost impossible to stand on 2 legs for new player, they cannot gather hides for tent (low level, hard times finding brahmins in the wasteland, incrased prices of brahmin hides after last changes in bases), they simply can't stand up without help of others, i know this because from time to time i make new PC and play as loner, second problem for them is crafting, runing from mine to city to craft some metal parts/gunpowder without begin robbed and again to mine, then to city, and again some metal parts/gunpowder, then to tent for previous crafted resources and at least we can go to city to craft some ammo, its just consume too much time and players are pissed off, now about old players, they get bored because they have nothing to do here except PvP/PK, good alternative for that was Hub Roleplay Project but sadly because of brainless suiciders and other shit it had to fall.
4. Go to hell, I have my own design of this spear! (List of priorities and players voice) - Lets begin from this "priorities", simply what im trying to tell is that devs create new "features" leaving old ones unfinished, example: crafting - demolition expert 3, now in short of this "players voice", it doesn't matter what player say, dev is always right and this is a problem, devs only listen when half of damn angry wasteland will gather at one point and will throw shit everywhere, problems with GMs activities was known for a long time, but there wasn't done nothing about it, only when lot of guys gathered devs starting listen, now we have solution for this in shape of "overseer2238".
5. My spear is blessed! you understand this heretic with minigun?! (Strange requiments in crafting and old stuff doesn't mean bad) - what im talking about is mining system and workbench requiment, lets begin from mining system, implementing mining sites only created barriers in game style and "improved" alting, why that? simple example: you cannot play/roleplay badass/raider whatever you want without alts, its impossible to enter to mine if you have bad reputation in centrain npc faction, so its only force alting (miners), and now some stuff about workbench - this is somehow connected to new players, its simply stupid that player can craft sledge hammer without workbench but hatched is diffrent story already, also non-profession items crafting, but i will say about it more in solutions part of topic.
Ok now time for my solutions for this problem:
a) Returning encounters where you can mine as before with current cooldowns (i mean here only basic minerals and iron ore, mines for hq stuff should stay as they are)
b) Removing workbench from requiments for non-profession items like: 10mm pistol, mauser, flamer, leather jacket, fibers, gunpowder, alloys, metal parts (i mean here normal ones, not hq), 10mm ammo, 9mm ammo, 12 ga. shotgun shells and all kind of tools like knives, hammers and hatched, because belive me, forcing player to go to town in order to craft basic shit don't incrase town population, it incrase players anger only
c) Creating alternatives for PvP, like... lets call it "random encounter quests", the idea is pretty simple, player enter to some kind of special encounter (but with a lot greater chance of finding it than shelter encounter), also you can improve random cave dungeon and add something similiar like abandoned villages ect, supporting RP projects ect.
d) creating alternative for tent, as i said before its super hard to find brahmin hides for new players and still they should have some kind of shelter, maybe small shack from for example 30-40 wood and some junk would be solution?
e) in order to increase town population you can create something like "vendor feature", players can activate this feature while in town, and they cannot be killed or robbed, in order to prevent players using this as "shield" there should be some requiments like players must have stuff equal to some value, maybe 1000 caps?, what more it have to be usable so players will be able define what they want buy, everything else will have value of 0 or 1, also it would be also possible to trade via dialog option where will be also information about sellable goods
f) incrasing number of items, players definetly need more items, everybody can say that, there is no arguing at this point ;]
g) Player PC customization, add new skins avaible with creating PC window, and also changeable during a game, also here i send devs to point h)
h) Devs, don't be afraid of asking players for help, lots of us will help you without hestinations, if you do not have too much time, ask players for some things like graphics, dialogs, music or whatever else, really we want help but you do not give us oportunities
phew, i finished, this topic is for all, Players, Devs and GMs, please be sure you read this all
PS: sorry for my english and chaotic style ; ]
PS2: I didn't posted it in suggestion section because its general problem
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1/2/g:
Better get the existing stuff balanced and the bugs out before introducing new things, especially when you want to introduce them on a large scale.
Finish the game first, than add features which aren't necessary for gameplay.
3:
No idea when you play, but I play in the evenings (CET). There are regularly 300-400 players on at that time.
I agree it's hard to get 10 hides this cycle, but if that's the reason people quit, so be it. If you're used to the "difficulty" of today's games, this 1 just isn't for you.
The whole gathering and crafting system is boring.
It's on online multiplayer game. That means you will have people spoiling other people's fun, because it's the only way they can have fun. In real life they're losers.
4:
Features should be implemented when ready for beta testing, not sooner and no implementation of half a feature.
Devs and GMs are always right, even when they're wrong. That's how it works in these kind of communities. You know that when even before you join so don't complain about it.
We already had a recent thread "discussing" GMs. I don't know if you were a regular in NCR pre-wipe, but I saw several GMs take a lot of shit from player. Things like swearing and namecalling. As for the overseer2238 thing, it's just a thrusted/thrustworthy member of the community who does work a dev should have done as kind of a side job or a none dev admin should have. Whole problem with appointing someone known is the immaturity of part of this community who start whining the moment their complaint is considered invalid.
5/a/b:
There are enough guarded mines to be able to gather normal ore and minerals.
The whole workbench requirement for certain stuff makes and never made sense to me, but than again neither did and does the fixboy.
0 tier stuff shouldn't require a workbench and the fixboy should only list stuff you can craft with your character.
c/d:
That could be nice.
e:
Abusable. If I don't trade I stay protected. Solution shouldn't be in protection from the player side but in descent AI for guards. If they recognize players regularly killing Sha Enin or bombers, they should shoot them the moment such players enter town. The same with thieves. Off course there should be a good option (not killing slave runs) for players to increase their reputation with that town.
f:
Why?
h:
They are already doing so.
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ok here is what i think about your propositions:
a)I think maybe a linked system- mine sites close to the cities, and far from the cities encounter found resources to mine. Leave the current cooldown, weight etc...
b)more workbenches? maybe that is a solution? or maybe remove the workbench req from the following: Mauser, 9mm, Leather Jacket, Gunpowder, Metal Parts- so everyone could craft te basic "Wastelander Kit" without need to go into a city.
c)I am all for that, but please do not make WoW "instances", so if I decide to go on a quest inside a deep cave, other players should be ble to find me there too (and kill me f.e.) however camping at such places should be forbbiden! and punishable.
d)hmm I am not completly for such solution. Maybe change the amount of materials neede to build a tent into: 5 brahmin hides, 5 wood, 5 junk? or something like that. New players should feel that wasteland is actually harsh...
e)I would be afraid about that- it doesn't seem like a good idea, I'd rather give more caps to traders, this is the thing that is currently needed. Making Vendors would fill cities full of idle characters that noone could interact with. we already have a fourm trade system- this is quite effective.
f)yup. maybe something other than mauser that would shoot 9mm? mp40?
g)when 2,5 d is finally introduced :)
h)yeah. but remeber some of our ideas were introduced into Fonline.
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e:
Abusable. If I don't trade I stay protected. Solution shouldn't be in protection from the player side but in descent AI for guards. If they recognize players regularly killing Sha Enin or bombers, they should shoot them the moment such players enter town. The same with thieves. Off course there should be a good option (not killing slave runs) for players to increase their reputation with that town.
f:
Why?
nonono, you don't get me, killing npc won't hurt player so much as killing player directly, for example players with active vendor should be immune to all kind of dmg, i didn't said that if you are not trading then you shouldn't be protected, im only saying its easy to kill player who have active vendor and he is afk for some reasons, and i agree about punishment for players who kill npc's in cities
c)I am all for that, but please do not make WoW "instances", so if I decide to go on a quest inside a deep cave, other players should be ble to find me there too (and kill me f.e.) however camping at such places should be forbbiden! and punishable.
i do not want change FOnline into another WoW, i just want some alternatives for simple pvp
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* More items? Sure! Weapons, armors and stuff. But as I heard not until 2.5d so we have to wait. Mayby even bubblehead's for collectors ^^.
* Mayby creating one more type of workbench? Normal ones (for basic items) will be at mine site. special ones will be at cities and faction bases.
* I think pre-wipe banning decreased number of players (CHEATERS!!! :> ).
* Yea there are many started and undeveloped ideas in Fonline, but I guess its still about time. I have faith in devs! ;)
* There must be easier way to obtain hides. Mayby decreasing hides needed for tent from 10 to 4. Mayby it could be gecko hides?
Errr I will write something more later. All that above are just combination of loose thoughts. It's my opinion.
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* There must be easier way to obtain hides. Mayby decreasing hides needed for tent from 10 to 4. Mayby it could be gecko hides?
I support decreasing the amount of hides required to make a tent. 10 hides always felt a bit extreme to me, considering the amount of effort it takes to find those bastards for new players. (especially post-wipe)
Something like 5 hides seems reasonable.
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4 or 5 brahmin hide sounds good for tent, but gecko pelts are.. Too tiny to make tent.
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4 or 5 brahmin hide sounds good for tent, but gecko pelts are.. Too tiny to make tent.
Unless you stitched quite alot of them together, you could indeed make a tent out of them but it would be a time consuming venture.
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4 or 5 brahmin hide sounds good for tent, but gecko pelts are.. Too tiny to make tent.
err... so maybe 10 (or more) of them? Its not argument at all ^^, same I can ask You how can I make tent with 10 brahmin hides some science and no freakin sticks :>
But getting back to the main topic becuse its not only about stupid tents!
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nonono, you don't get me, killing npc won't hurt player so much as killing player directly, for example players with active vendor should be immune to all kind of dmg, i didn't said that if you are not trading then you shouldn't be protected, im only saying its easy to kill player who have active vendor and he is afk for some reasons, and i agree about punishment for players who kill npc's in cities
I misunderstood.
It's still abusable as there are already griefers (mainly thieves) who make vendors unavailable by constantly renewing the windows before the timer ends.
They're easily recognizable as they have nothing in their inventory.
If you hang around a while, you'll see they're thieves.
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Re: tents:
Maybe allow substitute items?
Also, Tent Deterioration.
Full Size Tent = no deterioration. Requires 20 hides, 20 wood.
Medium Tent = 10 hides/10 wood. Lasts 10 RL days.
"Pup Tent"/Lean-To = 5 hides/5 wood. Lasts 3 RL days.
"Poncho Shelter (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&&sa=X&ei=pXCRTOGADsO78gbt7rXtBQ&ved=0CBcQvwUoAQ&q=german+ww2+poncho+tent+shelter&spell=1)" = 2 hides (ANY TYPE). Lasts 1 RL day. Stash your stuff there and get back to work! Fast!
Allow new tent to be pitched in same map as old one, retaining items in old tent.
Not sure about that old idea for modular bases, but allowing noob-tents would be a nice little helper thing for beginners.
Also: Hide Conversion:
1 Brahmin Hide = 1 Hide.
2 Golden or Fire Gecko Hides = 1 Hide.
3 Silver Gecko Hides = 1 Hide.
Problem is how do we mix different types to make a tent? FIXBOY.
Have a thing called "Tent Hide".
To make coding simple, only the same kind of hides can be combined to make a "Tent Hide", but all "Tent Hides" stack and can be used together with Science to make tent.
Outdoorsman should be used instead of Science.
Maybe allow Repair, Science, or Outdoorsman to be used- whichever is best for the player.
Oh, the "ANY TYPE" for Poncho-Tent is to mean even 2 Silver Gecko hides, no need to convert to Tent Hide.
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Problem is how do we mix different types to make a tent? FIXBOY.
Have a thing called "Tent Hide".
To make coding simple, only the same kind of hides can be combined to make a "Tent Hide", but all "Tent Hides" stack and can be used together with Science to make tent.
Outdoorsman should be used instead of Science.
Maybe allow Repair, Science, or Outdoorsman to be used- whichever is best for the player.
about requiments: im against those, tent is most basic thing in 2238 and everybody should be able create this
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a) Returning encounters where you can mine as before with current cooldowns (i mean here only basic minerals and iron ore, mines for hq stuff should stay as they are)
That I would like <3
b) Removing workbench from requiments for non-profession items like: 10mm pistol, mauser, flamer, leather jacket, fibers, gunpowder, alloys, metal parts (i mean here normal ones, not hq), 10mm ammo, 9mm ammo, 12 ga. shotgun shells and all kind of tools like knives, hammers and hatched, because belive me, forcing player to go to town in order to craft basic shit don't incrase town population, it incrase players anger only
hmm,the weapons should still be crafted there, but not the simple things like hammer, hatch, tools, knives, unsure of gundpowder, alloys, iron ore and leather jacket.
d) creating alternative for tent, as i said before its super hard to find brahmin hides for new players and still they should have some kind of shelter, maybe small shack from for example 30-40 wood and some junk would be solution?
+1111111111111111
I'm not sure how much wood weight but make it quite heavy :P
g) Player PC customization, add new skins avaible with creating PC window, and also changeable during a game, also here i send devs to point h)
Incoming with 3D era (if it ever will come -.-'). Too much work with sprites.
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I must say these are some pretty good points you have there Saumax.
As you say players helping devs with custom made graphics, music etc. i would ask, is there a place where we could gather this stuff and maybe discuss and rate it?
I think many guys would love to do item graphics, scenery objects or skins for players or npcs, whenever its hard work (so many frames) or not.
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I'm not sure how much wood weight but make it quite heavy Tongue
i understand that all players cannot carry so much wood, and there is solution: creating building site from 5 woods then placing on map some kind of box, this will use script similiar to distiller and materials will be gathered in those box, when box will be full with necessary items then player simply use this box and it will cause creating new map, of course those values are only example it would be still too easy to create shack with mere wood, my proposition for shack: 30 wood, 10 iron ore/rocks(both can be used), 20 junk
I must say these are some pretty good points you have there Saumax.
As you say players helping devs with custom made graphics, music etc. i would ask, is there a place where we could gather this stuff and maybe discuss and rate it?
I think many guys would love to do item graphics, scenery objects or skins for players or npcs, whenever its hard work (so many frames) or not.
those things shouldn't be gathered in one place, if 2238 need some kind of graphic ect then simply one person is chosen for one work
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those things shouldn't be gathered in one place, if 2238 need some kind of graphic ect then simply one person is chosen for one work
I understand that having a specialist in those things who is dedicated to work hard has its advantages, but think about the mass of things that could be created if everyone could send in custom made material. Some people just dont have the time or motivation for doin those things more often or only have one good idea.
It would be a waste to let a genious piece of work slip throug.
Take this for example: http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=9333.0 (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=9333.0)
I think Wichura doesnt want to become a regular developer of this mod, he just wanted to show a suggestion in a visual way and provided working content for critism and modification.
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ya dont get it, why somebody have work on something if it wont be implemented?
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They don't have to.
Its simple fun to be creative even if it wont get implemented anywhere.
Sure to some point its useless, but many people consider it a hobby and dont need appreciation or usage of their work.
If not used by devs it can still be used as a mod (like Surf_Solars Robe Mod), he could have said "oh please devs, make all bluesuits to this" but he left the choice for everyone including devs.
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that why we have tools and modifications subforum ;]
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basically, that wouldve been the answer :-[
I just want this whole bunch of PKs, griefers, flamers, goodguys, coders, players, abusers and maniacs to be a nice and loving family by getting everyone to do something for the greater good of 2238.
let a man dream ;)
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I can live with pvp and the whole 'harshness'. One thing that force me to ragequit for good is thiefs.
I cannot buy/sell or do workbench without being 'touched' by someone, its like every 10 seconds someone tries to steal from me
Once i tried to make a shitload of ammo and a hunting rifle, a guy came by and in a split sec bullet book was gone and whole gunpowder set and most of resources
Once I was crazy about the fallout onlilne idea, but after this I'm really done ;D
Good luck with the game anyway! ;D
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PS2: I didn't posted it in suggestion section because its general problem
It's a list of problems. We can't effectively discuss them all in one thread.
But one thing is certain: if old features are supposed to be balanced first, there's no reason to waste time into new graphics, tent alternatives, new quests or items.
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It's a list of problems. We can't effectively discuss them all in one thread.
But one thing is certain: if old features are supposed to be balanced first, there's no reason to waste time into new graphics, tent alternatives, new quests or items.
its not about new features, its finishing old ones (exception is vendor idea), there is few problems, true but all of them is connected to big one: ayonned and pissed off players who numbers decrase everyday
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Another idea from my side is to decrease max SP from 300% to 200%. Now everyone need to make alts to: craft sg, bg, armors, med stuff, repair, fight, gather, mine, ect. It will be really easier for new player and for old once to make less alts.
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i see your point but it won't stop army of alts, imo PC should be able to evole somehow even after reaching 21 lv
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i see your point but it won't stop army of alts, imo PC should be able to evole somehow even after reaching 21 lv
That would be huge nerf to snipers. To hit on max range u need 230+ skill.
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agree with you, that why i do not want such thing
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I'd increase the accuracy deterioration per hex for big guns so they'd have to have a substantion skill (230%+) to hit things unaimed at their max range, or reduce the accuracy deterioration rate gor snipers, so they can hit at a decent range (25 Hexes) with a 180% skill. That's the only way you might buff AC ingame really...
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I'd remove the accuracy being determined by skill% alltogether. It's the one of the main reasons to alting. Accuracy should be then mostly dependent on various factors like cover, AC, movement, distance and darkness. This way you'd actually had to think and try to gather all those factors for your advantage before shooting.
Weapon skills are one of the weirdest skills since they are the only ones that are directly responsible whether someone dies or not. You can't kill or hurt anyone directly by using repair, science or speech on them. But good % on weapon skill can decide someone's life and death in an eyeblink.
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hmmm i wonder how you can kill somebody with repair, you gonna left half fixed car and it will explode ; D
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I'd increase the accuracy deterioration per hex for big guns so they'd have to have a substantion skill (230%+) to hit things unaimed at their max range, or reduce the accuracy deterioration rate gor snipers, so they can hit at a decent range (25 Hexes) with a 180% skill. That's the only way you might buff AC ingame really...
Miniguns/etc. were designed to work without much aiming. They are area coverage weapons.
Skill with these mostly means burst control (when not just hosing) and slewing to new vectors quickly and smoothly.
I'd remove the accuracy being determined by skill% alltogether. It's the one of the main reasons to alting. Accuracy should be then mostly dependent on various factors like cover, AC, movement, distance and darkness. This way you'd actually had to think and try to gather all those factors for your advantage before shooting.
Remove skill from guns?
This is absurd!
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Remove skill from guns?
This is absurd!
He is suggestion that combat performance should be based on "real skill", not "skill" of lvling your character and pressing + button in your character sheet...
I support that. It is one of the things which need to be changed when you are making a MMORPG from singleplayer RPG...
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I've came to similar conclusion to OP's point of view. There is to big generalisation of stuff in Fonline - same looks, skins, weapons, items.
When I go to city map to scavenge I would love to have big map, full of shelfs, crates, pack of rubble to search for some goodies - hundred of diffrent things (...discribed as junk). Sadly making such feature would require shitload of time and amount of work so there's nothing to really bitch about.
When it comes to character looks I'm looking forward for 3d models... which will hopefullly get implemented this year :/... maybe.
Untill then, can someone tell why the hell mods stopped giving out skins? I know they don't support every weapon but that's somehing we can give away for a little bit of unique touch or RP buff.
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When I go to city map to scavenge I would love to have big map, full of shelfs, crates, pack of rubble to search for some goodies - hundred of diffrent things (...discribed as junk). Sadly making such feature would require shitload of time and amount of work so there's nothing to really bitch about.
not true, it do not require high ammount of time, the only thing what must be done is expand and improve map + add items to spawn
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When I go to city map to scavenge I would love to have big map, full of shelfs, crates, pack of rubble to search for some goodies - hundred of diffrent things (...discribed as junk). Sadly making such feature would require shitload of time and amount of work so there's nothing to really bitch about.
This would be the best way to implement gathering because you could also meet dangerous critters and players in these areas. It would be very exciting to explore these areas and watch out for dangers. But it would require lots of work indeed to make it work well since many other problems would ruin it, such as roaming pk powerbuilds and chaotic real time combat agains players and critters alike.
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if only RT made it so you had to gain enough AP to do an action first, the game would be so much better.
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if only RT made it so you had to gain enough AP to do an action first, the game would be so much better.
8 ap in rt is enough for clear sniper build, consider also addict one
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8 ap in rt is enough for clear sniper build, consider also addict one
What zato1 meant was that you first should have to charge your aps before the desired attack is launched. So that in combat mode you always had 0 aps to begin with.
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What zato1 meant was that you first should have to charge your aps before the desired attack is launched. So that in combat mode you always had 0 aps to begin with.
winrar
would solve a lot of issues with current RT gameplay model