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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: gordulan on September 14, 2010, 03:11:57 pm
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I haven't really analyzed every little piece of this, so bear with me on it.
The Idea
What I propose is the shotgun bursts get affected by the fast shot trait or reduce the AP of the shotgun by 1 in burst mode in general, and reintroduce the spread effect of the shells, but at the same time boost the general damage output by 30-50%, or give them the ability to cause a stun effect (3 seconds of immobility, or something along the lines of that, or even a temporary reduction in the targets ability to-hit-cap by 30%), alternatively add armour penetration to them instead.
General Banter (not important, just reminiscing...)
Because at the moment the shotguns are completely useless in my opinion, as were they before the wipe, the only good time I had with using the shotguns was when the AI was so flawed that it ignored you if it didn't have you in it's LOS (good times, clearing caves with a 10mm pistol, or a H&K CAWS agains ripper armed cannibals)
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Did you ever try a Pancor Jackhammer with the proper build for it? When played wisely it is an absolute deadly weapon (I even found the damage way too high when I tested it :P). Same goes for the CAWS, they aren't that bad. I don't see why they should be buffed.
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Its true high tier shotguns are outstanding. Low tier is low for a reason. ^^
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I do agree with fast shot affecting guns that have a single shot AND a burst mode. I see Fast Shot as a sacrifice of aimed shots for quicker bursts. Single shots are too crappy to make the current Fast Shot worth taking. Especially with just -1AP. If it was like, -2/3AP for a single shot with Fast Shot it'd be a very interesting trait. But it isn't.
I seem remember shotguns didn't have an aimed shot mode in Tactics. I'm not 100%. But maybe that would be worth considering, it certainly isn't a precision tool.
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Fast Shot is worth it for a couple of guns with the right build. It does need more stuff to expand its usefulness outside of the 3 pistols though.
High tier is fine. Damage is very good.
I'm going to boost the damage of normal shotguns and sawed off a bit though. They're a little too useless at the moment.
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Fast shot should -1 ap to single AND burst.
Why? Just look at its damn Avatar!
The mofos shooting at least 10 bullets at once, even though its from two guns at once!
ITS OBVIOUSLY A BURST!!!
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I am actually fairly dissapointed with Combat Shotgun...
It was my favorite weapon in all fallout games (yes even F3) and although it had a short range it had a mean punch... now it just... doesnt! Not even when you spray(and pray)/burst.
Also I remember that in other topics devs say that they strive to make the game playable with any build and not just "With the right build"!
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I agree. Fast shot should work with burst too.
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I am actually fairly dissapointed with Combat Shotgun...
It was my favorite weapon in all fallout games (yes even F3) and although it had a short range it had a mean punch... now it just... doesnt! Not even when you spray(and pray)/burst.
Also I remember that in other topics devs say that they strive to make the game playable with any build and not just "With the right build"!
Combat Shotgun has similar damage to the 10mm SMG. As I've heard Minigunners whine that they've lost to 10mm SMG users, I'm going to conclude that they are at a reasonable level.
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Combat Shotgun has similar damage to the 10mm SMG. As I've heard Minigunners whine that they've lost to 10mm SMG users, I'm going to conclude that they are at a reasonable level.
What's the price difference like?
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Price doesn't mean much. Its just a left over from the original prices we had, with a little bit of a squeeze on the top prices done as a blanket change. When everything is settled then it can be changed - but it would be pointless to have to rejig all the prices everytime things changed.
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Buff fast shot. Miniguners still can't shoot 3 times with "new" jet. Combat shotgun is good weapon farming stuff. It can work like now.
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Buff fast shot. Miniguners still can't shoot 3 times with "new" jet. Combat shotgun is good weapon farming stuff. It can work like now.
Fast shot is fine with the proper build.
For a question on my side, is jet addiction still perma or does it behave like all other drugs now?
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Perma.
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Perma.
So it's a perma -1 to ap now with jet?
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The effect should disappear if you are on Jet at the time.
Miniguners still can't shoot 3 times with "new" jet.
Ah, you noticed that eh? ;)
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Nerfing fast shot isn't nessesary. You try to buffed small gunners and nerfing big gunners. Ok - but you do it wrong. Now 2 bursts is maximum with sg and bg. Now is 2 bursts from minigun vs. 2 bursts from assault rifle/combat shotgun/pancor etc. All you can do is nerfing jet. Now is possibile have maximum only 14 AP (10 AG=10AP + 2 action boy=12 AP + jet=14 AP). And thats all. burst from minigun needs minimum 5 AP before last wipe. 14 AP = 2 bursts.
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You have to make much bigger compromises in survivability if you want to do 2 bursts per turn if you are BG then SG (especially if you want stonewall)...
I think the fast shot nerf was a good thing, I play 1 burst per turn BG tank and it's ok in RT...
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ideea: make shotgun and saw-off shotguns aimed bursts
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You have to make much bigger compromises in survivability if you want to do 2 bursts per turn if you are BG then SG (especially if you want stonewall)...
I think the fast shot nerf was a good thing, I play 1 burst per turn BG tank and it's ok in RT...
In RT. But in TB it's sucks. It's easy to make BG with 2 bursts with turn (buffout and nuka cola) so nerfing fast shot don't have any sense.
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ideea: make shotgun and saw-off shotguns aimed bursts
Burst never be got aimed. Burst is reckless and powerful attack.
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Nerfing fast shot isn't nessesary. You try to buffed small gunners and nerfing big gunners. Ok - but you do it wrong. Now 2 bursts is maximum with sg and bg. Now is 2 bursts from minigun vs. 2 bursts from assault rifle/combat shotgun/pancor etc. All you can do is nerfing jet. Now is possibile have maximum only 14 AP (10 AG=10AP + 2 action boy=12 AP + jet=14 AP). And thats all. burst from minigun needs minimum 5 AP before last wipe. 14 AP = 2 bursts.
If I'd wanted to just buff small guns, I would have just buffed small guns. Fast Shot was made into a real trait, not a perk you can take on char creation. Eventually Fast Shor will be expanded to encompass more than the few pistols that it benefits at the moment and we will have a nice new char class.
Alpha strikes were nerfed. On purpose. Sure p90c and 10mm SMG are good in turn based - they also have a pistol range and don't enjoy similar advantages in RT (where most PvP occurs).
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If I'd wanted to just buff small guns, I would have just buffed small guns. Fast Shot was made into a real trait, not a perk you can take on char creation.
I don't know, I'd say for small gun users it was a legitimate trait. Just not a great one. If you're trying to encourage people to go with single shot fast shotters, maybe make the AP reduction for single shots bigger, like -2AP.
Or rework one hander so that there's an AP bonus for pistols and an AP penalty for rifles and hey new character class.
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like -2AP.
For rifles, thats exactly what I had in mind, just havent asked if its technically possible yet :P
For pistols the AP drop is enough already, doesn't need to go any further.
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When I first started to wander the wastes in search for weaker enemies to make some XP, I had a 10mm pistol and a (basic) shotgun. The reason: I wanted to use the pistol most of the time, but switch to shotgun if one of those raiders managed to get near.
The point is, I don't know if this happened to you, but my shotgun tended to do the same amount of damage than my 10mm pistol. And what is worse, burst mode seemed to do the same amount of damage than single mode most of the time. One could say that I should not complain about this, since both the 10mm and the shotgun can be crafted by a noob with no profession. But I was expecting to get something in change for just being able to load TWO freaking bullets in a shotgun. In other words, shotgun worked simply like a 10mm pistol with a two bullets magazine. Conclusion: shotgun was useless.
I think the shotgun needs to be more than this. One should need to care to avoid getting close to an enemy who's wielding one, even if its a basic one. I wouldn't be amused if some sucker shot me in the groin with his shotgun.
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I had a 10mm pistol and a (basic) shotgun. The reason: I wanted to use the pistol most of the time, but switch to shotgun if one of those raiders managed to get near.
I had the exact same dilemma, with the exact same weapons (well, the sawnoff). I realise the 2/1 JHP damage modifier was the cause - even though the shotgun seems like it's more powerful, the 10mm pistol is a much more practical weapon. Especially with the lower AP requirements.
As far as the sawnoff goes, I'd suggest that it gets a damage buff and costs as much AP as a pistol to fire - after all, it has exceptionally short range and is fired one handed (manly). If you're feeling brave, maybe even make it use the pistol animations.
But as Solar's said, he's realised all this. So it'll be interesting to see what he decides to do with them.