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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: skejwen on August 24, 2010, 11:13:56 pm
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On postapocaliptic setting probably most important element that create whole atmosphere is continuous struggle for survival in hostile environment, no matter of its cost. Unfortunately 2238 misses this aspect and death instead is serving as tool to solve many character related problems (even for for fast travelling around worldmap). This is completely wrong approach towards this problem and it should be deeply rethought.
First thing that came to my mind is about cvets idea of chopping trees for Hubologists to replicate on TLA. So it can be shortened to "work for respawn" and its elegant way to make death unpleasant experience.
So here are listed my thoughts about it:
a) it would be needed to remove random location respawn in favour to respawn at closest one
b) reworking respawn maps so should replicate atmosphere close to one of the nearest city
c) maps should not have any exit grid, but instead it should include some annoying task that need to be performed in order to leave it, also player should get some small reward for completing it (and it should take approximately time needed to relogin on another character).
So the final question is - what do you think about this idea?
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Cutting trees? What the hell...? Something more... realistic please, what would Hubologists need wood for?
Other then that sure.
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At last...i wait it.....it is GREAT idea!!! :)
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Sounds interesting, but how about instead of "re-spawn at closest city", you get to pick the area you want to re-spawn because of increased time of not being able to be in the action? No, not exact location, but an area like "really far south", "kinda in the middle of it all", "somewhere on the west shoreline" etc. These options would come in dialog for after you completed your work. Of course, if anything related to skejwen's suggestion is implemented, re-spawn points should be more dynamic, as in more available choices to re-spawn at.
As for the suggestion itself, don't devs already have a modified re-spawn system they will implement after update?
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Well, i think that more predictable respawn is good idea, but rest is not. My question is: Will be benefit of this idea implementation equal to work that it will need? In my opinion, there is not exist PvE in Fonline and this should be first on list. It also needs new maps, quests, scripts, so no need to make this.
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This is not a good idea.
For example when you meet a bored GM who nuke whole Shady Sands, or just get burst from a guard who was shooting on someone else. Or to be killed when your encounter screed don't load, you get stuck on world map and some rat kills you.
That is one no from me. :)
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Why death penalty when I can login onto one of my 12 alts?
Bombers: already have couple of alts.
TC combat: alting is essential because using the same char to go back to combat instead of just picking another prepared alt would take too much time
And so on, and so on.
First reduce reasons to have alts. Death penalty is another reason for more alts and there already is a punishment for dying. You get bursted by random bluesuit in NCR and you respawn in Klamath.
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The current system for dealing with character death and respawn is fine as it is and now while I can understand the first two points, it is the third that presents the most problem.
c) maps should not have any exit grid, but instead it should include some annoying task that need to be performed in order to leave it, also player should get some small reward for completing it (and it should take approximately time needed to relogin on another character).
Death within this game is more then a common occurence its to be expected and I'd probably estimate that theres atleast one person dying every couple minutes somewhere, even so to begin arbitrarily punishing people because they die with menial tasks that may require a timeout of atleast three minutes will do more harm.
Obviously for higher level characters this wouldn't hurt as much due to they would have the nessecary skills, items, etc to escape dying in some cases although for many newer characters they would feel the full brunt of it as in most cases they won't have their skills developed or items yet to avoid death and it would become frustrating for newer players if they died only to spend three minutes on a menial task only to then die again and repeat the same all over again.
Even still the menial task itself could be relatively easy but still timeouts the player for a set period of time because they were simply unlucky because some random person bombed them in NCR for example. Now even if the task did grant some reward it would have repercussions on the economy if the reward was either monetary or good's based, as what would stop people from farming that quest at higher levels unless a limit was placed on it but then that would negate the whole point of forcing people to spend time on respawning. The reward could also be XP but then you'd also offer players an easy way to level if not limited aswell but also presents the same issue if it were.
The current system albeit questionable isn't broken and to begin punishing players because they can die at the drop of a pin would just aggravate people more then fix anything.
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This is not a good idea.
For example when you meet a bored GM who nuke whole Shady Sands, or just get burst from a guard who was shooting on someone else. Or to be killed when your encounter screed don't load, you get stuck on world map and some rat kills you.
That is one no from me. :)
What does that have to do with the suggestion? You seem to just be complaining about dying, not about the current re-spawn system.
For topic: The system does need to be changed; whether skejwen's way is the best, I don't know, but killing yourself to re-spawn in a different place is not how the game is supposed to go, and a little quest after dying seems to be okay. But the "re-spawn quest" shouldn't be anything repetitive, because if it is anything like shit shoveling, or box carrying, it won't do good.
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What does that have to do with the suggestion? You seem to just be complaining about dying, not about the current re-spawn system.
Maybe I am just complaining. But imagine: You will be killed in a way that I have described (you can't make any precaution to that) and will have to for example 15 min. shovel shit to get out of that area. And this will happen to you 3 times in a row. Will you like this game even more?
I just though that loosing equipement that you collected for about 1-2 hours is punishment enough. But maybe I am just complaining :)
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Why death penalty when I can login onto one of my 12 alts?
Bombers: already have couple of alts.
TC combat: alting is essential because using the same char to go back to combat instead of just picking another prepared alt would take too much time
And so on, and so on.
First reduce reasons to have alts. Death penalty is another reason for more alts and there already is a punishment for dying. You get bursted by random bluesuit in NCR and you respawn in Klamath.
Haha. You have 12 alts? thats neat, youll wait 11x10minutes to relog if everyone dies and after youll have to make this 10 minute penalty, good for you bro
I support of this idea only if its possible! What would happen if someone just restarted the client? If that person would still be in the penalty area unless that char makes some good thing for that its ok
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On postapocaliptic setting probably most important element that create whole atmosphere is continuous struggle for survival in hostile environment, no matter of its cost. Unfortunately 2238 misses this aspect and death instead is serving as tool to solve many character related problems (even for for fast travelling around worldmap). This is completely wrong approach towards this problem and it should be deeply rethought.
First thing that came to my mind is about cvets idea of chopping trees for Hubologists to replicate on TLA. So it can be shortened to "work for respawn" and its elegant way to make death unpleasant experience.
So here are listed my thoughts about it:
a) it would be needed to remove random location respawn in favour to respawn at closest one
b) reworking respawn maps so should replicate atmosphere close to one of the nearest city
c) maps should not have any exit grid, but instead it should include some annoying task that need to be performed in order to leave it, also player should get some small reward for completing it (and it should take approximately time needed to relogin on another character).
So the final question is - what do you think about this idea?
Fails miserably. It's not the respawns that need to be reworked, it's the cooldowns and lack of time consumption by doing simple tasks, fe. crafting a combat armor should take 10 minutes after clicking the FIX button, not to even mention time that should be spent on digging materials, smelting it(kind of unrelated, but gives a good example).
There's absolutely no pleasure in repeating annoying tasks, but there should certainly be more time spent required in order to leave the respawn place. Let's say, you spawn with both legs crippled and a cooldown on doctor skill. Then, an NPC will patch you up after a certain duration, which will decrease as you spend time on character and increase with each death subsequent to the, let's say second in one real life day.
There could be a number of ways that could reset the timer and perhaps THOSE should be the annoying tasks you mentioned, but they should obviously be optional. Forcing players do to annoying and repetetive things makes the game plain boring.
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I like the idea of chopping wood, it could be gathering junk, flint, HQ mats or 10 primitive tools etc. this needs to be a chore not a time to wait up. I agree with Skejwen on that
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There are advantages and disadvantages related to random respawn.
Nevertheless it makes more sense to respawn close to where you died (or does that Modoc farmer really travels to the Boneyard regularly?).
I don't like the idea of tasks to leave the respawn area.
It's not uncommon to get into an encounter close to the respawn area (NCR NE respawn, Boneyard respawn) and be killed by raiders or other thugs.
So you can do all that stuff again to leave the respawn area once again hoping you won't get a bad encounter this time around.
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It would be nice if there was a back story to it, for example: you are near death and then found by a band of slaver and imprisoned in a slave camp (maps were already made of slave camps). Then they make you work hard labor (mining, chopping wood, gathering) equivalent of 10 minutes real time and before you leave you are compensated say 100 caps (even prisoners get paid working in prisons).
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why not a tier 0 gun and 2 mags worth of ammo?
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well, I dont think, that if this idea will be implemented, that there will be more new players... it will make dying even more harsh for newbies, than it is now...
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Well, I Want to respawn to closest city. So ~support
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I would rather like to see something implemented to prevent people from randomly killing other players in guarded cities. This is completely stupid and nobody would do it in wasteland except maybe some mentally retarded idiots. Right now you go to the hub and a bluesuit with a 10mm smg bursts you and his friends take your stuff. Thats ok in an encounter or unguarded cities but actually those who run the guarded cities should care for their reputation.
If you try to loot in encounters where a patrol just shot down some raiders the patrol gets mad on you and kills you. This should also apply to guarded cities. If you get killed the guards will loot you and if someone else tries it he will get shot. The stuff the guards loot could go into the inventory of the traders so there is no benefit anymore for random killing in guarded cities.
Also the player who killed someone should get jailed with that character for some real life hours and perform some boring tasks and maybe pay a fee before being released back into freedom.
Dont get me wrong, pvp is totally okay but this is just stupid and annoying as nobody would act like that in reality.
Chiko
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Skejwen as much as I'd love this, there are some problems.
When it comes to discussing this we can't think of how to implement this suggestion to the current world because it's ravaged by various problems.
Instead we first need to know what the game is going to be like and how dying and staying alive would fit into that game world.
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This thread is only to remind that current situation is long way from being perfect...
My idea about quests is just based on cvets work (chopping tress for hubologists on tla server). Though currently I dont have any ideas how such quest or tasts should look like, its very hard to make such thing balanced. If someone have any ideas how to deal with it in my way, or with complete other approach - write it down here freely.
avv come with idea that staying alive for long time should have benefits too, so it would prevent players from suicide to "solve" things...
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avv come with idea that staying alive for long time should have benefits too, so it would prevent players from suicide to "solve" things...
Problem with this is that we can die very easily and sometimes randomly. This is caused by huge damages from guns and random deadly encounters.
This means that the means of killing must be discussed before discussing the consequences of living and dying. Just think about it: why should there be severe consequences from dying or major bonuses from living if dying is so easy or sometimes even random.
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Well, I Want to respawn to closest city. So ~support
Little modification: If you have good reputation in that city. I.e.: suicide bomber, thief in NCR will spawn somewhere else than in NCR spawn.
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Maybe there should be a small easy quest, like, make me 5 rotgut, and on finishing it if you are lower than lvl 10 you could get a 80% deteriorated mauser/flamer/laser pistol... with the deterioration and no ammo so it isn't farmable... maybe you should have option to make 10 more rotgut for some ammo...
Only on completing this you could leave.
No random respawn would be nice... we need more hotel rooms... maybe infinite hotel sizes.
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sims, sims never change
and im not trolling, what the hell are u talking about u want all people stop playing this game?
then the most imporant hex in the game next to the barrel in ncr will be all urs
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1) There should be some minor XP reward for doing so. The ones who won't care for the minor reward will be maxed out lvl and have the least chance of dying (unless of course you like throwing yourself on the front lines of PvP) but then the reward is not why that one is there.
2) Death IS supposed to have some drawback. Going to the Nearest Respawn is good to me, any randomization/choices only lets people die simply to travel. Remove that, and its another reason to stay alive.
3) Newbs die often, yes. That is reason for having the minor XP there. They will be garnering some XP to make up for the lost time crafting/punching scorpions, and thus not be a complete waste of time for Them.
4)'Cutting Trees' was an example. What would be done at each location might be fairly formulaic, but half the reason of dying is the DISCOMFORT of having to deal with the consequence. If you really want to, you Can use all your alts. You'll still eventually have to dig them all out of their grave, so to speak, so this does not really matter.
-People will alt anyway. This little mechanic on Respawn however will be a little something extra to make you not want to just kill yourself for the luls, exploit random respawn, or to drop kick your Rads to the curb instead of actually dealing with the effects of the radiation.
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Unfortunately I don't have anything else to say that I really like this idea.
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You have to remember how easy is to die in wasteland. One unlucky shot by raider and you re lying on ground unconscious and waiting for respawn. Cutting trees(or other simple quest) would be boring as hell. Imagine you died 1000th time and you have to do do that quest again. Pretty frustraiting.
I agree with Gatling about making respawn in nearest city, so suicide wont be the fastest way to travel.
Maybe we should go back to time when 'radiated' and 'crippled' were not removed after death.
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2) Death IS supposed to have some drawback.
and it does, full loot does it tell u something ,weakness, spawn somewhere else with 5 hp.
dont u all think its enough
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No, it is not enough in its present state.
And I have already commented on the fact nubs die often. They in general won't be making great strides in XP-gains that a high level would be Anyway, so their time out of the picture will not be so drastically effected because they will be able to grind out some XP while earning their release.
-Admit it: Many are disliking this because it will require them not to die so much in PvP, requiring a little more caution instead of the mass-swarming with numbers.
Death is inevitable in the game, but some act like it has no meaning. I hope to change this.
Also note: CUTTING TREES was Example, oi, quit acting like that is what will happen. I hope it won't be so boring, though considering the number of respawns, some probably are going to be more tedious than others.
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and it does, full loot does it tell u something ,weakness, spawn somewhere else with 5 hp.
dont u all think its enough
No. Try it IRL. you dont even have 5hp
Well there can be many stories, stories are not the problem. Yeah, you die, you need to work like a slave as a punishment but then you are rewarded for this work with hope youll do better, so actually this punishment and reward is good as it reminds you how serious it is and also gives you something to avoid it (lvl 0 gun)
The stories can be:
"NCR rangers found your body and revived in order to use some cheap labour to gather minerals" (you get primitive tools or hammer?)
"Hubologists found your body, sampled DNA and cloned you to be their slave to gather fibre for their robes" (you get a knife)
The problem is killing in those zones. I guess it should be guarded. Stealing disabled
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technically the tier 0 small gun (mauser), it sucks balls, literally, so IF we're even going to discuss giving tier 0 weapons the weapon given out should be the 10mm pistol, I don't even get why it's craftable in the first place... it should be a collector's item...
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Death is inevitable in the game, but some act like it has no meaning. I hope to change this.
Also note: CUTTING TREES was Example, oi, quit acting like that is what will happen. I hope it won't be so boring, though considering the number of respawns, some probably are going to be more tedious than others.
Okay but what's the point of cutting trees in first place? It has exactly as much point as some encounters after levelling to 21. I mean when you're at level 21 encounters like radscorpions and rats are nothing but nuisance, they add nothing to your gaming experience. Neither would some time-sink job when you die.
To give living and dying a purpose there has to be something that you lose when you die and get when you live. This could be reputation, for example. When you die, your reputation worsens and you become more like a loser or miserable hobo. Npcs will laugh at and spit on you, players will be aware of your pitiful state. But when you stay alive and experience harsh situations (not grinding centaurs) you become more adored and famous. This reputation could be then utilized in various ways.
Another thing could be hunger, if ever food and water was implemented. After defeat you're in bad shape and have to drink and eat. Otherwise you'd be weakened and couldn't fight or craft profesion items. This way food&water would be important resource because having it would make gangs and factions be able to send freshly defeated soldiers back in action fast.
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Everyone knows that its not about cutting tree. Cutting tree, fiber, mining some resources, making some quest will be boring. I know i wrote that in my previous post, but i think that you dont realise that you will make that thing after every death. And death, especially on low levels is very common. So after first 50 death it will be just mindless clicking. I agree that death need some penalty but i really dont like your solution.
What about:
-adding new kind of addiction "weakned" which is gained after death and last for 20min. It lower your stats/skills by 1/2.
or
-penalty to experience points
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IMO dying already suck enough for newbies. I find the random respawn a huge hindrance, as getting suicide bombed in NCR and then respawning near klamath is a huge pain in the ass. I feel like stricter penalties for death would discourage new players greatly, as newbs die quite often.
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IMO dying already suck enough for newbies. I find the random respawn a huge hindrance, as getting suicide bombed in NCR and then respawning near klamath is a huge pain in the ass. I feel like stricter penalties for death would discourage new players greatly, as newbs die quite often.
Well now youll be quite close and youll get a gun.. how does that sound, dying is expensive
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What about:
-adding new kind of addiction "weakned" which is gained after death and last for 20min. It lower your stats/skills by 1/2.
You see in pvp people die, they are supposed to. It wouldn't be very rational in terms of enjoying the game if pvp only got one round of pvp per 20 minutes.
-penalty to experience points
You mean they would level backwards? Well then it's just like this: die, go kill some centaurs and you're back in bussiness.
I'm not sure if it's possible to find solutions here because some of us are thinking system that would fit the current form of game and some are thinking of the future. Skejwen wanted to punish dying so that people wouldn't suicide to cure their problems like crippling. However this can also be fixed by making it not worthwhile to die because living is supposed to be more profitable. But that leads to the problem that we die very easily anyway. So simpliest solution to the actual problem of curing radiation and cripples would be that dying wouldn't remove them.
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That is a problem. What kind of server we want? Realistic, PvP shooter, Roleplaying? I would be happy to know about future plans for this server and what is the final objective for devs.
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Percentage based XP loss modified by player levels.
Low levels lose little experience (less than killing a rad scropion might net them) while mid-levels end up set back a bit. Dying at level 21 weakens your SPECIAL's by on or two points instead lasting 15-20 minutes or so. Conditional: You can not lose levels in this way, your experience can not be decreased lower than the minimum required for your current level - important to prevent greifing so one dude doesn't just set up on a nother dude and set him back days worth of XP in an hour.
The result - less time felt wasted on nonsensical busy work quests, click this now click that, click this now click that. The game shouldbe fun not tedious out the arse which it can do masterfully thanks to an interface system over a decade old. Low levels die well that's life at low levels, oh wel you lost a couple of XP, too bad so sad... go kill a rad scropion or a molerat and get it back again. Mid level died? Harsh dude, I feel for you, gonna need to find a few random encounters, brush yourself off and pick yourself back up. Max level and died? Well you keep your experience but the trauma's left you a bit fatigued you're going to have to be pretty careful until your head clears up and your body stops aching, old timer.
The point is death needs to set you back a bit so you have cause and want to avoid it, but it shouldn't be a PITA that puts you through dated interface manipulation and click fests. I'm not a fan of time sinks in games, they already are time sinks. This is technically a time sink but its not obvious "Do this stupid nonsense thirty times and I'll let you go," it's an "Aw crap, I died and now I gotta go kill somethings to level up again, oh well at least I like shooting stuff!"
I'd also like either more hotels (infinite hotel size please, don't give me that immersion crap as a reason it can't be done - there's three hundred vault dwellers running around start there if you're going to fix immerison) or, yes, respawn near closest city/settlement/town/whatever-you'd-call-some-of-the-filthy-hovels-that-populations-gather-into-in-Fallout. Nothing is worse as a character starting out then getting some momentum then dying by freak chance and getting booted half a state away from your tent/stash of crap in a town.