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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Closed suggestions => Topic started by: skejwen on January 13, 2010, 01:32:17 am
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Since its online game I think that it would be great do disable turn based combat once and for all... It brings only more and more bugs (and then some more :P)...
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It is also a way to get exp pretty easy with right amount of AP, and this causes players to level up much faster. I'd actually like to see how the game would work in RT only. If game was RT only though, there would have to be lots of changes to critter combat speed and their AP regeneration (this needs fixing, a lot). Imo it feels like critters still keep their AP while they walk/run after you and it is only used for attacking (is this true?), unlike how player AP is handled in RT.
Using Rocket Launchers, Grenades or other explosives is a useless task in RT because they always run too close to you and the AP requirement for Rocket Launchers is so high, you are always caught in the explosive field unless a friend takes the aggro and runs around with the enemy on his tail - and then you might of course just hit him too.
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What has an online game to do with disabling turn based combat?
I always prefer to play in turn based, it's much more fun, also in pvp.
So why the hell should that be removed?
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This game is turn based, if anything the real time should be removed. (not that that will ever happen)
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This game is turn based, if anything the real time should be removed. (not that that will ever happen)
You absolutely cannot have gang wars in Turn-Based, never, ever. There would be 12 people forgetting to press END CMBT and another handful of people whining about the game being slow. The game shouldn't be TB only.
And who said "This game is turn based"? FOnline is not Fallout 1, nor 2.
Newsflash: Turn-Based is buggy as fuck and numerous critters still wait out their 30 seconds instead of taking turns, it is encumbering and annoying. If game went fully Turn-Based while this bug was still here I probably wouldn't play, I don't want to encounter a swarm of 20 rats all waiting out their turn because I'm out of their line of sight.
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You absolutely cannot have gang wars in Turn-Based, never, ever. There would be 12 people forgetting to press END CMBT and another handful of people whining about the game being slow. The game shouldn't be TB only.
And who said "this game is turn based"? FOnline is not Fallout 1, nor 2.
First of all, you could have gang combat in turnbased. You don't need to hit end combat so I don't see what your point is. If people complain about the game being slow they are playing the wrong game, fonline requires the patience of a thousand Buddhist monks. Despite the fact that this technically isn't fallout 1/2 doesn't change the fact that the combat system is essentially the same and was designed for turnbased combat, not real time.
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You clearly said "This game is turn based". You are wrong, this is FOnline, it uses a Real-Time system similar to Fallout Tactics (which worked very well, If I may add) and a Turn-Based system similar to Fallout 1 and 2.
Yet this game is not Fallout 1 or 2.
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If someone would enter turn based combat mode in city full of players and npc (i.e. for lulz), I dont see how entertaining would be waiting for it for end. Here you have nice example of such situation in small scale (and it took about 30 minutes to make your turn):
(http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/2566/asdasdck.th.jpg) (http://img39.imageshack.us/i/asdasdck.jpg/)
Thats why we have real time in cities.
Since turn based is hard coded in engine (if anyone in "turn based area" enters combat mode - automaticly anyone that is in this area enters it too) I cant even imagine for any other solution than real time...
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You clearly said "This game is turn based". You are wrong, this is FOnline, it uses a Real-Time system similar to Fallout Tactics (which worked very well, If I may add) and a Turn-Based system similar to Fallout 1 and 2.
Yet this game is not Fallout 1 or 2.
It's the fallout 2 combat system with a real time element tacked on. It's nowhere near as well implemented as the tactics realtime (which had its own set of issues). Most of the perks have no use because they were meant for TB and don't translate to RT. What we have is a broken turnbased designed combat system, nothing more. It needs a complete overhaul if its ever going to be good.
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It's the fallout 2 combat system with a real time element tacked on.
We use the Fallout Tactics combat rules in realtime.
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The main reason I don't like PVP IS the lacking Turn Based Combat in Towns (though I understand that its hard or nearly impossible to do, because of all other critters involved in the fight have their rounds) because it's more than a clickfest, one's reactions and speed are more important than using the brain (like it is in Turn Based Combats) which has nothing to do with the fallout I know. But I don't care about, since there is more content then just combat. Still it would be pretty sad if TB combat will be disabled.
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We use the Fallout Tactics combat rules in realtime.
It doesn't change the fact the combat system was never intended for realtime combat.
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I'm sided with Surf Solar on this one. The game engine was designed for turn-based combat. Granted, there are problems with using it in PVP, Real-Time combat just doesn't do it (at least not for me). More often than not, in RT PVP, I find myself being shot at without warning by some shmuck that decided I would make a nice display case for his ammunition, without any real reason. Then, as Surf stated, it turns into a frikking click fest *shrugs*
I say we keep Turn based fighting, since it's a whole lot more dynamic for this engine. Hell, maybe there could be a reduced area effect for it? Maybe modify it, so that only people firing at you or that you have targeted are part of the combat sequence itself? It might work, you never know.
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It doesn't change the fact the combat system was never intended for realtime combat.
Sure but SPECIAL doest its job good in real time too (with some flaws afc)...
I'm sided with Surf Solar on this one. The game engine was designed for turn-based combat. Granted, there are problems with using it in PVP, Real-Time combat just doesn't do it (at least not for me). More often than not, in RT PVP, I find myself being shot at without warning by some shmuck that decided I would make a nice display case for his ammunition, without any real reason. Then, as Surf stated, it turns into a frikking click fest *shrugs*
Afaik this engine is designed to be an MMO game and its based on Fo2 turn based mode and FoT real time.
I say we keep Turn based fighting, since it's a whole lot more dynamic for this engine. Hell, maybe there could be a reduced area effect for it? Maybe modify it, so that only people firing at you or that you have targeted are part of the combat sequence itself? It might work, you never know.
Well as I wrote before I cant even imagine solution of this problem...
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Who wants to disable TB combat??? Uhm then again, right, why not... you wanna chips with that xD
If you wanna play FOnline with sick ideas and solutions then go to TLA
Disable TB...
Preposterous...
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I vote we disable turn based. I prefer turn based, it's less twitchy, but I'm thinking about balance.
You can't balance a game with two combat systems. That's all there is to it. Damage values and ranges and perks that work fine in turn based won't in real time. And we can't have all combat turn based, it's just not practical. So we should stick exclusively to realtime and start adjusting the game to suit that.
For one, I'd prefer realtime to be slower. Just little things.
Such as:
Shooting people having a small delay in which you can be interrupted, cancelling your attack.
Running drains AP, but doesn't actually -cost- AP. So you can run as much as you like, but if you're going to shoot back you'll have to wait for your AP to regen.
That kind of thing.
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If you think it cant be balanced then disable RT everywhere else than in cities
How come some people always have so unreal ideas x_x
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2 combat systems give the game more various options, more builds, more possibilities. If somebody don't like TB, simply play RT and stop whining. Nobody force you to enter caves in TB system, so leave it, whiners. I like both modes, even pvp near cities is much more interesting.
If you whine about TB - how about shuting whole sever off? There's a third interesting combat mode - PBB :P
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I agree with Badger. The only issue I have with RT, is that AP regeneration rate is constant (does not depend on max AP).
Someone correct me if I'm wrong about that :)
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You are wrong (both AP regen and disabling TB :P)
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I say why not.. on PvP server. But people I know just wouldn't play it without TB, cause this game would no longer have anything to offer, except "shoot first or die", which is just a profit for PvPers. This game without TB would be just as many other games and actually the RPG elements wouldn't be as strong as they're with TB on. You can as well play some FPS or something like Deus Ex etc. and it should serve your purpose better.
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You are wrong (both AP regen and disabling TB :P)
So AP regen does depend on max AP?
EDIT: Just tested, it does.
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As TB is optional, as some players like it, and as it's the very core of the Fallouts games battles... I'm strongly against this suggestion.
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As TB is optional, as some players like it, and as it's the very core of the Fallouts games battles... I'm strongly against this suggestion.
I feel the same way, but I know that if we keep both, and try to balance both, we'll be getting a worse combat system overall. I don't want to see it go, but I know if we try and keep it the overall quality of the game will suffer as we try to compromise between RT and TB.
Removing TB would mean RT would finally have to be adjusted to make it slower and more tactical. Just because it's realtime doesn't mean it needs to be a twitchy clickfest. RT just needs to be slowed down a lot.
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I think that long hours spent to make RT much slower could be better invested in removing bugs/imbalances from TB & RT
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Removing TB would mean RT would finally have to be adjusted to make it slower and more tactical. Just because it's realtime doesn't mean it needs to be a twitchy clickfest. RT just needs to be slowed down a lot.
I agree with this, Real-Time just needs to be adjusted properly. If slowed down a bit it could be like Tactics RT.
And removing RT altogether would not be much good either. Imagine being in a town, then a random griefer thinks it's funny to start a giant Turn-Based fight with everyone at the Bazaar area of NCR, it would be unbearable.
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I feel the same way, but I know that if we keep both, and try to balance both, we'll be getting a worse combat system overall.
Disagree. It just cause that some characters will be good in RT, some in TB. That sounds better for me. If you remove TB, you will recieve 3 character builds - smg/bgg/ene. Nothing more. I want to play with my jet-addicted character and see my 20 AP doing the work :P
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If the time limit for TB was reduced to 20 seconds and the AI bugs where they wait are fixed TB wouldn't be slow at all. If there was an option for auto attack like in FOT realtime would make more sense as it would be based on sequence and range, not who clicks first.
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If there was an option for auto attack like in FOT realtime would make more sense as it would be based on sequence and range, not who clicks first.
I think this would make RT a lot better and more popular. If we reduce the need for player reactions, we get back to emphasis on character stats and strategy - as it should be.
How about all combat actions have a built in delay, and your Sequence determines how big that delay is?
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Could some dev reject this topic already?
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Could some dev reject this topic already?
That's your opinion, not everyone agrees with you. The devs will make their own minds up.
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Fallout without TB would be like chess with 20 second limit to make your move xD
Awaiting for judgement day 8) (Dev's final opinion)
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RT encouters = unplayable becouse of lag.
I'm happy with current RT PvP challenge + TB PvE fun.
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Oh my, what a silly topic.
Hey - let's disable all big guns, since im not using them...
So what? Me and other AP loaded fastshooters or other people that find TB important should now play RT cause you, skejwen don't find it usefull?
Anyway - Why should devs disable something that is optional anyway?
I really don't get suggestions like that.
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Fallout is what it is partially because of unique TURN BASED strategic combat and adequate character creation (builds). Real-time is nothing but a feature to speed up city fights, its also darn bugged.
If you don't like that, go and play diablo, or other tibia... as fallout isn't for you.
Regards.
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Half year ago I had same thoughts about real time... that its sin to use such feature in game which has Fallout in name... but... with time I realised that turn based dont fit well for multiplayer game, not only coz its bugged as hell, but mainly coz it promotes playing it alone...
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I don't use TB, so perhabs I wouldn't care about it if only I wasn't thrown into someones TB random encounter from time to time, during my travels on the worldmap, and if it didn't take a couple of minutes to get out of it. Not even to mention that if you are enough unfortunate to appear in the middle of a gang, then it's a death trap. When such a situation happens in RT, you have at least a chance to run away and pray that they don't spot you soon enough to react.
Anyway, trying to combine two totally different combat systems in one game requires compromises.. and it certainly isn't going to make the game better. I think the devs should rather choose one system and concentrate on it. That's just my opinion.
And lastly, this thread should be a poll ;).
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Since players has no right to vote its no use... But we can check public opinion about it ;)
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Take away TB? :o NOOO!!! that is baad idea!! i love TB i got time to shoot in someone balls or eye ;D Well true TB gots some problems but fun is sweet
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Fallout without TB would be like chess with 20 second limit to make your move xD
Awaiting for judgement day 8) (Dev's final opinion)
Actually something like that exist and its called Lighting Chess (10 secs per move usually).
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Bad idea, I had lots of fun hunting with others in TB. It's also safer for people who are not very agile, especially if they have a build for TB. Why take this away... because it's bugged? Then fix the bugs. Don't turn the game into a third person shooter even more than it is now.
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Bad idea, I had lots of fun hunting with others in TB. It's also safer for people who are not very agile, especially if they have a build for TB. Why take this away... because it's bugged? Then fix the bugs. Don't turn the game into a third person shooter even more than it is now.
yep!!!!
Dont tuch Turn base......his is optional....
But i think need 15 sec but not 30 sec!
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You wanna chips with that?
A single lag can take 10 seconds
It has to be 30 for players (critters may have less - like 10 perhaps)
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To be honest the only time I ever use real time is when I have no intention of fighting and i just want to run, and thats only with low ap characters, consider this, a 6 ap character has a better chance escaping in real time then turn based due to him not being able to outrun the raiders hes fighting or whatever, where as 7 and up ap your better off escaping in turn based mainly due to the ridiculous time out flaw,
seriously in turn based when you hit the grid and your turn ends your out and safe but if you in real time as long as your being shot at the combat timer doesent run out so your constantly in a state of im screwed oh no.
i think real time is fine for towns but at this point a town battle usually doesent last more then 30 seconds, i think turn based is better for wasteland encounters then real time ever could be, there are to many factors that make it broken, like critters that are always able to hit no matter what and dont have to regenerate ap so no matter what if you stop to regenerate a few ap to fire back your going to get swarmed.
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I like turn based mode. Especially I can aim! It's hard to catch a slave in RT with lags. Besides there are few perks for TB only (like bonus rate of move). I think it will increase number of fast shooters (like big gunners). I know few people want to make this game PvP only, but do we want to make FDiablo? Let people with natural low reflex which really like Fallout play.
BTW: Has anyone won battle with Enclave in RT?
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I don't use TB, so perhabs I wouldn't care about it if only I wasn't thrown into someones TB random encounter from time to time, during my travels on the worldmap, and if it didn't take a couple of minutes to get out of it. Not even to mention that if you are enough unfortunate to appear in the middle of a gang, then it's a death trap. When such a situation happens in RT, you have at least a chance to run away and pray that they don't spot you soon enough to react.
Anyway, trying to combine two totally different combat systems in one game requires compromises.. and it certainly isn't going to make the game better. I think the devs should rather choose one system and concentrate on it. That's just my opinion.
And lastly, this thread should be a poll ;).
I don't use RT, so perhabs I wouldn't care about it if only I wasn't thrown into someones RT random encounter from time to time, during my travels on the worldmap, and if it didn't force me to play in "2d tibia-like shooter" when i play in FalloutOnline. Not even to mention that if you are enough unfortunate to appear in the middle of a gang, then it's a death trap. When such a situation happens in TB, you have at least a chance to run away or kill you enemy if you have good tactic or/and stuff.
Anyway, trying to combine two totally different combat systems in one game requires compromises.. and it may be good for game or not.But can we try? It's Fallout based game goddamed, in my opinion TB should be at least as a option.
Point of view depends from point of beeing.
Now i think that allready existing system (2 combat mode) is good for FO, wasteland isin,t friendly, you can be throwned into hostile environment like TB/RT in any time.
p.s. Elmehdi i hope that you wont be angry beacouse i "used" you post but i wanted to show that both RT/TB have a lot of thier followers and show how "this other" group feels when somebody wanna take away thier adored way of gaming.
peace (outgame only :P ingame... "war, war never change uss..." ;) )
p.s.2 sry for bad english (i'm tired after work).
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Did anyone mention "ping"? Not lag, ping, the response time. If I have a 350ms ping and I fight against a player that has 45ms ping I think i will be already dead when I enter the encounter. Theres no way you can get rid of it.
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I don't use RT, so perhabs I wouldn't care about it if only I wasn't thrown into someones RT random encounter from time to time, during my travels on the worldmap, and if it didn't force me to play in "2d tibia-like shooter" when i play in FalloutOnline. Not even to mention that if you are enough unfortunate to appear in the middle of a gang, then it's a death trap. When such a situation happens in TB, you have at least a chance to run away or kill you enemy if you have good tactic or/and stuff.
The unwanted loss of time is the greatest pain here and that was what I meant. It doesn't happen too often though, so it's not like I care a lot about it.
And believe me or not but your chances of succesful escape from a gang encounter is much greater in RT.
Anyway, trying to combine two totally different combat systems in one game requires compromises.. and it may be good for game or not.
I'm not saying that spreading an effort to create a "2 in 1" game ABSOLUTLY can't result in a good product, but it usually doesn't. I'm very optimistic about this one though.
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Did anyone mention "ping"? Not lag, ping, the response time. If I have a 350ms ping and I fight against a player that has 45ms ping I think i will be already dead when I enter the encounter. Theres no way you can get rid of it.
Large ping = lag (simplifying). The longer response time (ping), the less chances you have in real time based combat.
And believe me or not but your chances of succesful escape from a gang encounter is much greater in RT.
Lol!
Realtime: 1 shot, escape grid block kicks in, all ambushers will just keep shooting to you (try running, have a fun!).
Turnbased: you walk away, get a bullet or 2, but opponents need to choose between running after you or shooting. Once you reach exit grid, you are safe.
Decent agility and/or bonus move can turn you into a real runner (10 ap + 2x bonus move + 2x action boy = 16 hexes!)
RL helps only if you pop in the middle of someones fight - there is a chance they won't notice you. Otherwise, you are toasted.
An idea for devs, maybe:
You cannot engage a character(s) with different combat mode than yours . They would be invisible on the world map for the encounter checks.
Only exception would be a person/team with mixed mode, discovering someone in the wasteland - they would have an option to join the battle in the mode it is already being played, or to skip. No more realtimers trapped in turn based combat, nor turn-players executed before the map loads ;)