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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Quentin Lang on August 15, 2010, 05:58:19 pm
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Just like the title says, the way i see it, the trading just aint working right. Im talking about player to player trade. Everyday more and more topics and situations in-game make me think abit about this, and slowly i've gotten to this conclusion: it isnt reliable to trade, its more reliable to make crafting alt; it takes too much time to trade, instead seeking someone who has the 10 gecko pelts, il simply go kill geckos myself and mostly, it isnt safe to trade: your trade partners sidekick can steal off your items/caps while trading, someone might kill you while trading, someone might scam you with items, lure you into a trap and so on and so on...
Now, this definately isnt a main priority suggestion, but this, i guess, is what the suggestion subforum is for.
So that was the introduction, the problem.
Fix im offering:
call it as you want, but for now i'l call it just mail. Yes, people, mail. I've tought this plenty times: what the heck, it aint realistic, mail in wasteland? But then again, its gameplaywise, and in my eyes, gameplay>realism. The idea is pretty much snitched off other MMO's; you send item to reciever and if the reciever wishes to get it, he has to buy the caps. Bit more in-depth, an example more like:
Player A wishes to send 5 plasma rifles to player B.
Problem No. 1: Player B doesnt trust player A, he think it might be a trap, besides, loosing X caps wouldnt be good.
Problem No. 2: Player B has 20% outdoorsman. He is at Hub, player A is at Klamath. Hell yeah.
Problem No. 3: Player B wishes to buy all the rifles, but he is offline right now. Meanwhile, player A is worried - he is going sleeping in few minutes, he very likely wont be online tomorrow and he needs the caps.
Fix for all of the problems: unlogical, unrealistic, unexplainable mail system.
Each city and larger areas (Gordons Gas, for example) could contain one mailbox wich would work like a faction terminal. You can use this terminal to give items to other players, simply trough some kind of dialog the mailbox takes away your item and 'sends' it to the reciever. When the recieving person uses any mailbox, he can withdraw the item. Similiar when its about trading. Seller sends a laser rifle to buyer and determines the price, 3000 caps lets say. The buyer recieves the item and to withdraw it from the mailbox he must have atleast 3000 caps in inventory, wich get 'eaten' by the terminal upon laser rifle withdrawal. Later the sender can use any mailbox/terminal to get his 3000 caps. Also, during the dialog, seller could determine how long does the item is available to buy for the buyer. This means that if buyer decides to actually not buy the item, seller gets it back in, let it be 1 hour, 2 days or a week.
I hope i runned down the basics clear and understandable.
The mechanics might be kind of hard to implement, but dialog shouldnt.
Seller's dialog with terminal could be something like:
1. Select item you wish to sell.
*Items you got in your inventory listed down, OR type the item name trough ''Say''*
2. Select the reciever/target
*Enter persons name trough ''Say''*
3. What would be the price of item?
*Enter price trough ''Say''
4. How long you wish to sell?
*Choose amount of time from a list*
And reciever's would look like this:
1. You got no new items/You got new item/items!
2. Its a light support weapon loaded 30/30 .223 FMJ and 78% deteroriaton./... looks like it has been repaired already.
3. Do you wish to withdraw this item?/... it needs X caps to withdraw it.
This would definately, ihmo, improve player-to-player trade. Only cons i see for it is the dumbness and unrealism of it.
I guess thats it, i hope i didnt miss anything out and you'l get it.
My own vote goes to 5th option.
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The simplest thing to improve trading is to make places where fighting is impossible. "Non-PvP area"
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The simplest thing to improve trading is to make places where fighting is impossible. "Non-PvP area"
Or then just make someone place to non-pvp.
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The simplest thing to improve trading is to make places where fighting is impossible. "Non-PvP area"
I know what you mean, also i've read Chiko's suggestion. Ironically, this idea was born while talking with Chiko on IRC :P
Also, such a market would still need to go there, spend your time looking for buyers or waiting for someone to start selling items etc. Id doesnt fix offline trading, fast trading. I dont see it as the best way out; you can aswell use 2238trade IRC channel.
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We already have a mail, it's called a train. You can use a train to travel long distances, don't you? And about risk of being killed - wasteland is harsh, get over it.
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And about risk of being killed - wasteland is harsh, get over it.
Yeah, the perfect answer for everything...
Chiko
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Train is solution :D
It can do same thing than that "magic mail"
Edit: you just put letter item to pack and buyer can check what "pack" contains or something message.
And you must pay let's say.. 100-200 caps that train make you pack way to right place (price depends of place)
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We already have a mail, it's called a train. You can use a train to travel long distances, don't you? And about risk of being killed - wasteland is harsh, get over it.
If you mean using trains to travel from south to north, well then, gotta say, trains suck. You dont get much more faster around with them, you still need to wait for them and you, AFAIK, need some dumb ticket all the time. And about wasteland is being harsh, you dont need to tell me that, im pretty sure i've played FO half more you've done and died two times less.
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I'd rather have a hardmounted radio for everyone in town with a loudspeaker.
You dial a faction name or a location for 10 caps or 100 caps to yell through the loudspeaker over the whole dialed location.
For example:
"You fockers in Broken Hills, i'm gonna mine and give you 100 caps for entry and 900 caps after i'm done, so cease fire"
or.
"Calling TraderJoe in SF, wanna trade .223 at Adytum!"
Edit: it would also add more diplomacy to the game.
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If you mean using trains to travel from south to north, well then, gotta say, trains suck. You dont get much more faster around with them, you still need to wait for them and you, AFAIK, need some dumb ticket all the time.
The trains just've been implented, they are not completely done, they are still buggy and not finished. You can't even see train stations without taking a quest so I guess it should be enough of a hint for you to understand that trains are in the very first stages.
And about wasteland is being harsh, you dont need to tell me that, im pretty sure i've played FO half more you've done and died two times less.
OMG I"M BETTER THAN YOU NOOB XAXAXA. Yeah, keep talking like that.
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I also suggest removing the unnecessary voting options and stop the fucking shitstorm about HARSHfuckingNESS, unless you want a mod closing this business here.
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Sigh, we already had this. Please don't write humorous options in a poll. Either you are serious with a poll, or you are not.
Removed the "funny" ones.
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Biggest propblem with player to player economy are alts. If someone really wants something he makes an alt because it's the fastest and easiest way. People who actually buy stuff from others don't want to waste their time too much or refuse to alt.
After this supply and demand issue has been fixed it's all the same how the actual deliving of stuff works. Hell if we ever got a trading where the only way to get certain stuff was from other players a really cool player-created systems might be arranged. I'm imagining a neatral zone guarded by players who are only inerested in bussiness.
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God no, where are all these RuneScape suggestions coming from!?!?
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Quentin, I have to agree with you, that trading is pretty fucked up (and I think I am one of people, who know the most about it)... but your suggestions doesnt solve it too much... with this solution we will have thieves and other griefers just camping those "mail terminals", where will people withdraw their stuff or caps...
But if we will work with this suggestion, lets make it a bit more fallouty... the suggestion you have made is working in many online games, in one or other way, and we just need to rework it for fonline... so I have two ideas how to make it fitting into fonline universe:
1) train or caravan delivery... - it will work only at train stations or at towns with caravan outposts... you will speak with caravan leader or some trade officer at train station, give him your item and name the price... then the other player can withdraw it at any train station or caravan at town after handing the named amount of caps...
2) bazaars at towns... - there will be some man or men at every town, lets call him "auctioneer" for example... you will give him the stuff you wanna sell and name the lowest price you want for it, then every player who comes to him can see the items and make a bid for the price... after some period the player with highest bid can withdraw his stuff...
First or second idea, or some combination of them should really be implemented in the game, as it will make the game good for every type of crafter as they will have finally opportunity to sell their stuff properly...
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But if we will work with this suggestion, lets make it a bit more fallouty...
*snip snip snip*
Thats why the forum is for. My suggestion is flawed, but generally it pointed out the fact that yes, P2P trading sucks.
I was thinking about caravans too, but there i stopped, didnt knew how to involve them. So i kind of dropped the caravan part.
Then i also tought of an auctioneer, and that would be a perfect fix for the trading (i.e. just check the WoW auction system, 90% trades go trough it in that game), but then i again stopped; i recall some dev or GM saying something like: ''No need, leave this for players improvisation'' or smth like that. Aint gonna search for that quote now, but if its needed, i might dig it out. So yeah, imo auctioneer would be perfect fix for this, but i dont think the devs support it.
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I was thinking about caravans too, but there i stopped, didnt knew how to involve them. So i kind of dropped the caravan part.
Then i also tought of an auctioneer, and that would be a perfect fix for the trading (i.e. just check the WoW auction system, 90% trades go trough it in that game), but then i again stopped; i recall some dev or GM saying something like: ''No need, leave this for players improvisation'' or smth like that.
So yeah, imo auctioneer would be perfect fix for this, but i dont think the devs support it.
Why shouldn't they? Just because it looks WoWish? Or did they want the economics be controlled by the players, like you said?
i recall some dev or GM saying something like: ''No need, leave this for players improvisation'' or smth like that.
Perhaps there's a point why it's shouldn't been driven by players but by neutral party instead?
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we coud use runescape's "great exchange ideea"
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we coud use runescape's "great exchange ideea"
Noooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats wat I FRIKKIN hated about Runescape, everything is regulated, you cant price a rare item with the price YOU want its so fucked up.
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Noooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats wat I FRIKKIN hated about Runescape, everything is regulated, you cant price a rare item with the price YOU want its so fucked up.
Chill, instead of saying what you dont want, try to say what would fix the broken P2P trading. So far an auctioneer seems the best idea, but i have no idea how to implement it witouth creating some special and specific trade screen for it.
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Lang why do you want fix trading anyway? Why not shovel shit instead as you said in another thread? Also trading isn't broken, it's the players that like more to rob each other than trade. The fix you suggested isn't a fix at all. Have you ever watched any crime film? There are sometimes such scenes of trading like they exchange huge amounts of money for drugs and such. This exactly ressembles how trading on wasteland looks - anything can go wrong and a peaceful meeting meant for trading can turn into bullet festival and THAT'S RIGHT, BECAUSE IT'S A GODDAMN WASTELAND.
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Right, thats something what makes trading interesting. Scouting, gathering your people who protect you and perhaps even a little fight in the wastes.
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Shoveling shit isnt really my call, but trading right now isnt just right. Why should i even bother with looking for someone who sells, lets say, metal armors if finding, meeting, trading takes more time in best scenario than relogging to crafter alt, one run to mining site, back to base and voila. Meanwhile, in case of auctioneer being in this game, i find it very beleavable that MA would be something very common at it. Also, it doesnt have to be an AUCTIONEER/AUCTION HOUSE, just something that works as third party trading mechanism for fast shopping.
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Quentin, I have to agree with you, that trading is pretty fucked up (and I think I am one of people, who know the most about it)... but your suggestions doesnt solve it too much... with this solution we will have thieves and other griefers just camping those "mail terminals", where will people withdraw their stuff or caps...
But if we will work with this suggestion, lets make it a bit more fallouty... the suggestion you have made is working in many online games, in one or other way, and we just need to rework it for fonline... so I have two ideas how to make it fitting into fonline universe:
1) train or caravan delivery... - it will work only at train stations or at towns with caravan outposts... you will speak with caravan leader or some trade officer at train station, give him your item and name the price... then the other player can withdraw it at any train station or caravan at town after handing the named amount of caps...
2) bazaars at towns... - there will be some man or men at every town, lets call him "auctioneer" for example... you will give him the stuff you wanna sell and name the lowest price you want for it, then every player who comes to him can see the items and make a bid for the price... after some period the player with highest bid can withdraw his stuff...
First or second idea, or some combination of them should really be implemented in the game, as it will make the game good for every type of crafter as they will have finally opportunity to sell their stuff properly...
so far so good but since fonline economics isnt about hard cash whats the purpose of buying from a player when:
A- all items are sold almost everywhere
B- cash is already pretty rare in the game, most players trade items per items and if in luck items per cash
basic economics: when theres more goods then money there is no possibleway to sustain an economic system
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God no, where are all these RuneScape suggestions coming from!?!?
Also from wow. Id rather have a non pvp trade zone
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Lang why do you want fix trading anyway? Why not shovel shit instead as you said in another thread? Also trading isn't broken, it's the players that like more to rob each other than trade. The fix you suggested isn't a fix at all. Have you ever watched any crime film? There are sometimes such scenes of trading like they exchange huge amounts of money for drugs and such. This exactly ressembles how trading on wasteland looks - anything can go wrong and a peaceful meeting meant for trading can turn into bullet festival and THAT'S RIGHT, BECAUSE IT'S A GODDAMN WASTELAND.
wrong... at this time, trading in wasteland (a.k.a. map trading) is much more safer, than trading in towns... which is obviously wrong, because towns should protect the trade as much as they can and it is one reason, why towns are mostly empty...
Right, thats something what makes trading interesting. Scouting, gathering your people who protect you and perhaps even a little fight in the wastes.
nonsense... even if trading will work this way, it makes trading impossible for solo players, who will be beaten every time by gangs...
so far so good but since fonline economics isnt about hard cash whats the purpose of buying from a player when:
A- all items are sold almost everywhere
B- cash is already pretty rare in the game, most players trade items per items and if in luck items per cash
basic economics: when theres more goods then money there is no possibleway to sustain an economic system
I have to disagree... just tell me which vendor is selling huge amounts of CA or 5mm APs or Sniper Rifles, etc... (by huge amounts I mean, that it can satisfy all players in the game)... the answer is "none"... and thats the reason, why people are buying stuff from other players... the second reason is, that they wont use alts for crafting or dont have time for it...
and the second part of you post, wrong as well, there are big amounts of caps among players... for example, it is possible to sell stuff for caps to vendors and many players do this... when I was saving money for my base, I earned 130.000 caps in a few days, just by selling crafted stuff to people...
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ur talking about a small portion of search and profit disregarding all system economics that affect general players.
i never said trading wasnt possible, there will be always someone looking for something ofc
i HAVE seen all those items u claim to be sold between players in npc vendors at a mediocre quantity, not enough for every1 but more than enough for the majority..
as for those who dont have crafters most of them will find a faction wich will have them
"and the second part of you post, wrong as well, there are big amounts of caps among players... for example, it is possible to sell stuff for caps to vendors and many players do this... when I was saving money for my base, I earned 130.000 caps in a few days, just by selling crafted stuff to people..."
caps in this game have WAY more ways to be spend then earned, most of players will often save money for something WAY more important then craftable items..
again its not that its not possible to earn money in this system, but the system itself is a HUGE fail compaired to basic economics
we had a better economic system in stoneage then in this game.. ( yeah am overreacting, but not as much as u may think)
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A gang could specialize in trading !
Seller contact Trading Gang, give them the items plus extra money for delivery. Trading gangs with their heavy guards members travel through the map to the buyer place, and deliver the item. Buyer give the money with an extra that the trading gang deliver to the seller. If the package is lost/stolen during delivering, the Trading Gang give a compensation to seller/buyer.
The gang would have to make itself a real reputation to be reliable and they will never take a really good payment but it could be really fun to do this job. And it will create great Role Play and make the Wasteland more alive.
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2) bazaars at towns... - there will be some man or men at every town, lets call him "auctioneer" for example... you will give him the stuff you wanna sell and name the lowest price you want for it, then every player who comes to him can see the items and make a bid for the price... after some period the player with highest bid can withdraw his stuff...
Don't need to create auctioneer or someone.
Hub (merchant city):
Dwarf (that small guy, can't remember his name) at General Stores, if you have normal reputation with Hub, you will have additional options:
1) "I want to sell this item to anyone."
Then barter screen opens and that dwarf has very very very much caps in his window, you place one item, then pick any number of caps from his window and press "offer", you'll lose that item from your inventory and of couse won't get these caps, because you just placed its price by this way.
2) "I want to sell this item to one person."
then it'll say "press "Say" and write his name", then press "Done".
It will work the same as 1st. It can be even merged, simply, if you don't write anything it'll be offered to every player, if you write anything in "Say", then only to current player.
Then anyone will have an option, probably depends of reputation too:
"Is there any items for sale from other wastelanders?"
It'll show barter window with all these items offered to all players + items that offered only to your player and they will have the same worth in caps as were placed by player, the only problem is if it's possible: all items, except for caps, will have worth of 0 at that window, so you can pay only with caps.
Then option:
"Can I take all caps gained by trading?"
1) Noone have bought you crap yet, so you haven't earn anything.
2) Yeah, someone bought your items, here's your caps, I took X% for trading (depends on reputation with Hub, with high reputation you'll get 95%-100% of caps).
And atlast:
"I want to remove all my items from sale"
You getting back all your items.
This can be also done with some other NPCs in NCR (at Sha Enin) and may be Adytum (at scavengers).
So you'll post on forum in trading section:
Dwarf (His name) in Hub has 5 BAs for 14k caps each, later I'll craft more, thanks.
And then come there and check if someone bought your BAs, so you can earn caps with, and NPC will take some % depending on your reputation with Hub.
well man... you just created an auctioneer :P ;D but yeah, this is a possible way to do this...
I meant don't create a NPC or something, just add this option to existed one NPC.
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Don't need to create auctioneer or someone.
well man... you just created an auctioneer :P ;D but yeah, this is a possible way to do this...
A gang could specialize in trading !
Seller contact Trading Gang, give them the items plus extra money for delivery. Trading gangs with their heavy guards members travel through the map to the buyer place, and deliver the item. Buyer give the money with an extra that the trading gang deliver to the seller. If the package is lost/stolen during delivering, the Trading Gang give a compensation to seller/buyer.
The gang would have to make itself a real reputation to be reliable and they will never take a really good payment but it could be really fun to do this job. And it will create great Role Play and make the Wasteland more alive.
its interesting idea, but only gangs with powerbuilds for PvP can do this, because no other players will stand a chance against professional PKers (for example those ones farming jet around Hub)... and I dont think that PvP gangs will be interesting in this way of trading (there is no real profit in it for them, and they have a lot of work with alting and farming to maintain their chars for PvP I think...)
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Btw it'll be abusable, because you can store there items, just make thier price 999999 caps (or for special player only where name of that player is yours) and noone will buy it, so you can use it instead of tent.
So number of items per player should be limited and again dependant on reputation, so storage-alts will be useless, or pain in ass to operate with reputation.
Or you'll need to pay to trader instantly after placing item there and he won't take % after selling.
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Just make the players pay a fee for putting an items there depending on the price they want to set. Let's say for 1000 caps item they'll have to pay 50 caps. For 1 000 000 caps itemy that would be 50k caps. I think the tent is cheaper after all.
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Btw it'll be abusable, because you can store there items, just make thier price 999999 caps (or for special player only where name of that player is yours) and noone will buy it, so you can use it instead of tent.
So number of items per player should be limited and again dependant on reputation, so storage-alts will be useless, or pain in ass to operate with reputation.
Or you'll need to pay to trader instantly after placing item there and he won't take % after selling.
comission here we go! 5% in caps
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Biggest propblem with player to player economy are alts.
Our problem is that we are free, will always have to be free and controlling alts without being able to charge a fee is next to impossible.
Currently its really easy to level an alt up to be able to craft Level 3 stuff, so its easy to supply everything you need yourself.
Only way to create demand for certain items is to make it harder to get them. First step was unguarded mines. It made this only slightly harder because its still very easy to get whatever you need, but further things will be done a long this path until desirable items are hard to get so everyone can't just whip himself up an alt and craft away whatever he wants.
Somethings including:
- Stripping away higher tier stuff from easy encounters (Particularly ammo)
- Moving towards blueprints for higher tier items (Needs the new quest writers for the quests to gain these) - Think Level 2 professions + Blueprint instead of Level 3 professions.
- Specific places in the wasteland to craft items (Think the concept for the MFC machine in Sierra expanded
Perhaps, if it still remains too easy with these things, a limit on how much each workbench can produce in an hour.
One day, after much moaning about how "I can't craft X!" we will create player demand :)
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too bad you can't do anything about the ikillforthalulz community, it will be far too unfair to the "good" players while the "evil" players will be able to get absolutely everything as they do now, to a certian extent half of the community will have to take I'mNotADouche lessons...
I like the idea, but you forgot the most important variable in it, the far too PKish community, so yeah...
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Our problem is that we are free, will always have to be free and controlling alts without being able to charge a fee is next to impossible.
Who's talking about fee. Fees and punishments never work as seen with cha1. Just encourage and reward players from playing a single char so that it's more profitable to play single than many alts. This means that if you craft, quest and fight you also fight, craft and quest better. So that the three of these would have a synergy. Or reward players from being in a faction and playing like the factions demands. This is faction mod after all.
Only way to create demand for certain items is to make it harder to get them.
This can also lead to stocking. Remember combat armors past few wipes? They were basically treasures for most people and few dared to wear them.
Or it can lead to people completely ignoring the high tier stuff because it takes so long to get and it'd be easier to do many runs with medium stuff than one long prepared run with good stuffs. Unless staying alive was more important than stuff so that players would absolutely want to wear the best gear to protect their lives.
Somethings including:
- Stripping away higher tier stuff from easy encounters (Particularly ammo)
- Moving towards blueprints for higher tier items (Needs the new quest writers for the quests to gain these) - Think Level 2 professions + Blueprint instead of Level 3 professions.
- Specific places in the wasteland to craft items (Think the concept for the MFC machine in Sierra expanded
Perhaps, if it still remains too easy with these things, a limit on how much each workbench can produce in an hour.
One day, after much moaning about how "I can't craft X!" we will create player demand :)
Let's see how it turns out.
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Or it can lead to people completely ignoring the high tier stuff because it takes so long to get and it'd be easier to do many runs with medium stuff than one long prepared run with good stuffs. Unless staying alive was more important than stuff so that players would absolutely want to wear the best gear to protect their lives.
That really fit good post-apo setting... all we need is some mechanism that will make players trying not to die, instead of currently "death solves all problems" syndrome ;)
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Just encourage and reward players from playing a single char so that it's more profitable to play single than many alts.
Then we have the same problem, but all alts combined into one. It doesn't really matter if its alts or one super char, except to the people who limit themselves to one char. For a problem such as this those two things are indentical.
This can also lead to stocking.
Stockpiling could be the case if there were a max per hour imposed. That would be a last resort. Much better to allow things to flow in freely, but only if you can control it.
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Im just wondering why e-mail registration or registration confirmed by GM is impossible. Because this is my first though when i hear about alting.
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Then we have the same problem, but all alts combined into one. It doesn't really matter if its alts or one super char, except to the people who limit themselves to one char. For a problem such as this those two things are indentical.
What I'm talking about here is that an armorer with interests in fighting, questing and crafting abilities makes the best armors but he can't make the best guns. But he can exchange his good suits for good guns. The reason why he makes the best armors is because he has travelled the world and been in many situations while wearing his own armors, thus knowing what kind of suit feels most comfortable and is most handy (quests). He has also been in many fights and knows what the suit can and cannot stop (fighting). And he has also made many suits (crafting).
This would give additional endgame goal for players. Instead of wasting exp, they start gathering profesion exp which they can invest on making stuff or enhancing your char otherwise depending on your profesion. Dying would reduce your exp, you'd get lots of exp from pvp by killing your enemies but you can't farm it by killing low-levels or single dudes many times. You'd get the best exps from your worst enemies who also try to kill you.
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Then we have to invent a completely different mechanism, build it, balance it. In the end we get something which only mirrors what we can naturally achieve in the way of limiting where it can be made etc (ie making you have to earn the ability to craft these things), but in a much more gamey and time consuming way.
Im just wondering why e-mail registration or registration confirmed by GM is impossible. Because this is my first though when i hear about alting.
Extra E-Mails aren't hard to get, and making a GM check every new person that wants to start the game, aswell as slowing down registration for genuine new people, would be a nightmare for them to do.
Just making systems a lot less geared towards alts is the only real way it'll get solved. For example how Barter changed, the skill remained somewhat usefull, yet you don't need an alt in order to buy stuff.
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Only way to create demand for certain items is to make it harder to get them. First step was unguarded mines. It made this only slightly harder because its still very easy to get whatever you need, but further things will be done a long this path until desirable items are hard to get so everyone can't just whip himself up an alt and craft away whatever he wants.
Somethings including:
- Stripping away higher tier stuff from easy encounters (Particularly ammo)
- Moving towards blueprints for higher tier items (Needs the new quest writers for the quests to gain these) - Think Level 2 professions + Blueprint instead of Level 3 professions.
- Specific places in the wasteland to craft items (Think the concept for the MFC machine in Sierra expanded
Perhaps, if it still remains too easy with these things, a limit on how much each workbench can produce in an hour.
One day, after much moaning about how "I can't craft X!" we will create player demand :)
well I dont like this ideas at all... it will nerf the game for loners or small gangs even more... my experience right now, while I am playing mostly alone, is that I can surely get HQ resources, but half of the time I get PKed in mines, so only other possibility to obtain them is to buy it from other players... then, when you implement the ideas about blueprints and specific places to craft, crafting will be rotten completely... because like HQ mines are camped by PKs now, those locations will be camped as well... so you will have hard time to get resources and then another hard time to craft your items, when you can lose both resources (again) and blueprints too... and this horribly sucks, because only power-players in big gangs can craft as they can guard those locations, so there will be no economy twist... the big gangs will have everything, same as they do now, and small gangs or loners will suck even more than now...
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Our problem is that we are free, will always have to be free and controlling alts without being able to charge a fee is next to impossible.
Currently its really easy to level an alt up to be able to craft Level 3 stuff, so its easy to supply everything you need yourself.
Only way to create demand for certain items is to make it harder to get them. First step was unguarded mines. It made this only slightly harder because its still very easy to get whatever you need, but further things will be done a long this path until desirable items are hard to get so everyone can't just whip himself up an alt and craft away whatever he wants.
Somethings including:
- Stripping away higher tier stuff from easy encounters (Particularly ammo)
- Moving towards blueprints for higher tier items (Needs the new quest writers for the quests to gain these) - Think Level 2 professions + Blueprint instead of Level 3 professions.
- Specific places in the wasteland to craft items (Think the concept for the MFC machine in Sierra expanded
Perhaps, if it still remains too easy with these things, a limit on how much each workbench can produce in an hour.
One day, after much moaning about how "I can't craft X!" we will create player demand :)
Are you even serious? This will only SLOW DOWN the process, it's not a solution. Remember those 5 minutes cooldowns after previous wipe? People started making shitloads of alts. And when I say "shitloads" I mean it, they were making like 50 characters named miner01; miner02; miner03; and so on and so on. This system back then lead to nowhere. I remember BBS had Combat Armors in the very first day - and that's not you wanted. Of course now no one will try to make so many alts because relogging from one to another is pain in the ass and you can be banned easily if you abuse it. There are better solutions and one of them is to remove professions limit. If you have enough skills to take both Armorer lvl 3 and Small guns craffter lvl 3 why wouldn't you do that? Now it only leads to more alts.
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Then we have to invent a completely different mechanism, build it, balance it. In the end we get something which only mirrors what we can naturally achieve in the way of limiting where it can be made etc (ie making you have to earn the ability to craft these things), but in a much more gamey and time consuming way.
Well I was just presenting the fact that fixing alts is possible. It just comes to how serious alt problem is regarded and I think they are one of the worst problems in the game. If you look at the game alts are related yo everything somehow so it's quite top priority I guess. We can't get proper playtesting results on many areas because the results are distorted by irrealistic game world caused by alting.
Just making systems a lot less geared towards alts is the only real way it'll get solved. For example how Barter changed, the skill remained somewhat usefull, yet you don't need an alt in order to buy stuff.
I agree. Just do the same with weapon skills, steal and sneak. They would just determine your perks and profesions, not the chance of success.
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Are you even serious? This will only SLOW DOWN the process, it's not a solution. Remember those 5 minutes cooldowns after previous wipe? People started making shitloads of alts. And when I say "shitloads" I mean it, they were making like 50 characters named miner01; miner02; miner03; and so on and so on. This system back then lead to nowhere. I remember BBS had Combat Armors in the very first day - and that's not you wanted. Of course now no one will try to make so many alts because relogging from one to another is pain in the ass and you can be banned easily if you abuse it. There are better solutions and one of them is to remove professions limit. If you have enough skills to take both Armorer lvl 3 and Small guns craffter lvl 3 why wouldn't you do that? Now it only leads to more alts.
Does this post make any sense ... at all? :-\
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Yeah, let's just add more difficultes. Base the game on crafting even more, fuck yeah.
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Ah, I see. It didn't make any sense.
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Ah, I see. It didn't make any sense.
well, what about my post? It doesnt make any sense too? Or are you really intended to give more power to powerplayers?
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I agree with Enzo, what Solar said sounds to me like "if big cooldowns don't help, we need to make them even bigger"...
Solution is somewhere else, I will post my suggestions about this some time soon hopefully.
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There is nothing about making cooldowns longer. Its about restricting the number of high tech weapons in the game. There will likely be ways to earn access to workbenches through domination mode or faction scenarios, but there is no universal right to the highest tier of equipment.
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There is nothing about making cooldowns longer. Its about restricting the number of high tech weapons in the game. There will likely be ways to earn access to workbenches through domination mode or faction scenarios, but there is no universal right to the highest tier of equipment.
so this way you will restrict access to part of the game for everyone who is not part of PvP gang... ???
I am ok with HQ resources in not-guarded mines... I am ok with blueprints needed and not easily obtainable... but crafting allowed only at few places which will be camped by PKs or even impossible to access without gang? Well that sucks so much, that I even cannot say how much it sucks... :-[
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It's not the cooldown's fault that people constantly plunge themselves into harmful situations, don't give a damn about their lives and thus keep losing high tech stuff all the time.
It's also not the cooldown's fault that it's very easy to die due to very simplistic and unforgiving combat mechanics with little chance to retaliate.
So what if it takes 2 hours to craft something cool? It should last for a week if you played smart. The game just doesn't support that ideology but it's not the cooldown's fault.
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Solar: Unless the server would manage the amount of high-tech weapons relative to the player base, not allowing to spawn more when the limit is reached, tracking weapons broking up and disappearing in random encounters... unless that, I see no way how you can effectively restrict their number.
Restricting weapon number is not equal to making them more harder to get.
The harder they are to get, the more really dedicated players you need, who find it worth their time to waste hours obtaining their equipment needed to match the current king of the hill.
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everyone who is not part of PvP gang
Points at...
There will likely be ways to earn access to workbenches through domination mode or faction scenarios
Restricting weapon number is not equal to making them more harder to get.
If 100 players want to craft Desirable_Item_#1 , then we can have 100*X or 100*Y. X being 1 for craft it anywhere and Y being some value less than 1, which would depend on how restricted its crafting is. Its restricting their number by restricting their influx into the game.
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Then we have the same problem, but all alts combined into one. It doesn't really matter if its alts or one super char, except to the people who limit themselves to one char. For a problem such as this those two things are indentical.
It does matter - if you can play with one char, "jack-of-all-trades" and do what you want (fight, barter, travel, make items), you will play, because fast/dual/multi relogs or proxy voodoo shit is far from comfortable playing, believe me.
Now most players I know, including myself, are "jack-of-all-trades" anyway, but it requires these goddamn alts. We need to get rid of reason to make alts, not alts themselves.
Enzo if you don't participate PvP, high-tier gear isnt't needed in large amount. Besides you can buy stuff from other players, not make it by yourself - earn some caps on drugs you've made and change them into armors, and so on.
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Solar: I don't think artificially suppressing supply of items to the market is good way to regulate item scarcity, if you care about the time the players have playing the game being fun.
Much better is to suppress the demand - make items less attractive, or limiting the total amount that can be in game.
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Enzo if you don't participate PvP, high-tier gear isnt't needed in large amount. Besides you can buy stuff from other players, not make it by yourself - earn some caps on drugs you've made and change them into armors, and so on.
I dont need high-tier stuff myself... but implementing of Solar suggestions will spoil all crafters and traders, and I like playing crafter/trader much more than some bloody PvP...
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I don't think artificially suppressing supply of items to the market is good way to regulate item scarcity
It isn't artificial, artificial would be saying only 10 of Desirable_Item_#1 can exist in the world. Limiting where something high tech can be made is something anyone can understand.
t does matter - if you can play with one char, "jack-of-all-trades" and do what you want (fight, barter, travel, make items), you will play, because fast/dual/multi relogs or proxy voodoo shit is far from comfortable playing, believe me.
Now most players I know, including myself, are "jack-of-all-trades" anyway, but it requires these goddamn alts. We need to get rid of reason to make alts, not alts themselves.
The reason you can't do everything at once is to encourage interaction. Allowing everyone to be everything on one char destroys the concept just as surely as alts themselves.
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We need to get rid of reason to make alts, not alts themselves.
Reputation, reputation and reputation.
Fresh created alt for one purpose will need to make some quests in certain location(s), trade there, again complete quests and for other location again complete quests there, through these quests he'll unlock possibilities to do something. Reputation will be as requirements for taking part in TC, town don't want to be conrolled by some unknown strangers. It was told alot times, even by devs that they want to see something like that, so probably someday it'll be so, that alts will be unneccessary, because high reputation some completed quests which required reputation too to unlock them will give more possibilities.
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this thread is getting out of hand.. we need to identify the problems 1st and then adress them. heres what ive seen players complaining more after reading:
flawed economic system
alt chars
feel free to add
an input on the alt chars probem: the best system ive seen used in a mmrpg to control chars per person was by ultima online IMO.
For those unfamiliard i will explain:- each player as an account,
- each account as 5 slots for chars that can be deleted at any time ( they had a failtriger here u only could delete chars older than 3 days to prevent abuse from money/items that spwan with new chars)
- to change chars u had to wait 5 mins to access the chars slots, otherwise u would keep getting in the same char
P.s - the values can be change to serve fonline better but i think the system itself is one of the best
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Aw, come on, i mean it. The crafting already is boring as heck... It is, but i wouldnt complain about it at all if you could choose how many, lets say, gunpowders you can make at once. But this has been suggested quadrzillion times, so nvm...
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Reputation, reputation and reputation.
Fresh created alt for one purpose will need to make some quests in certain location(s), trade there, again complete quests and for other location again complete quests there, through these quests he'll unlock possibilities to do something. Reputation will be as requirements for taking part in TC, town don't want to be conrolled by some unknown strangers. It was told alot times, even by devs that they want to see something like that, so probably someday it'll be so, that alts will be unneccessary, because high reputation some completed quests which required reputation too to unlock them will give more possibilities.
That's right. Reputation is one solution. It could be linked to pvp so that it couldn't be grinded from encounters, or the reputation giving quests or encounters could be somehow "unsafe" so that it'd be possible to meet other players in these locations. For example a quest where you'd have to bring stuff for BoS from Glow, the enclave would also want that stuff and send its agents there.
Moreover, the way how Solar described skills should work + some sort of faction reputation would be pretty much the end of alts and make the game 10 times more interesting.
Aw, come on, i mean it. The crafting already is boring as heck... It is, but i wouldnt complain about it at all if you could choose how many, lets say, gunpowders you can make at once. But this has been suggested quadrzillion times, so nvm...
One reason why it's boring is because people keep losing their stuff all the time because they die and are thus forced to craft lots of stuff. And dying is very easy and eventually dependent on random misfortunes (random crit from encounter, players spawns in your encounter, lag, crashes).
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I think making crafting the backbone of the economy is always going to be too difficult to balance.
Make anything beyond mid-tier gear only obtainable from quests and PvE. If you make the best stuff craftable, you'll always have to deal with crafting alts, as the best gear will require a huge skill investment that people aren't prepared to make with their mains.
That or you make it so the best gear is only usable by the character that crafted it. It'll solve the alt problem, in a way. but it's a very fantasy RPG mechanic.
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In this vein we have bluebrints (which will be available through quests [of varying difficulty]). Scrapping of tier 3 profs (lowering of required skills) and Restricting where these things can be made (A kind of quest populated by other players, if you will ;)).
So, I agree with you.
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So, I agree with you.
(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t286/WizardAngst/th_Futurama_Fry_Looking_Squint.jpg) (http://media.photobucket.com/image/fry futurama staring/WizardAngst/Futurama_Fry_Looking_Squint.jpg?o=1)
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I thought about allow player to buy a market or a stand.
Market can work like a kind of base and stand can be rented for a time in protected town like a room.
You have a NPC selling what you give to him and you choose the prices, seems good ! I like it :p
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I thought about allow player to buy a market or a stand.
Market can work like a kind of base and stand can be rented for a time in protected town like a room.
You have a NPC selling what you give to him and you choose the prices, seems good ! I like it :p
Sounds good, but needs too much time from devs.
Maybe we should now just make them job what they got now.