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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Closed suggestions => Topic started by: Zak Blayde on August 10, 2010, 02:30:14 pm
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Warning: The topic author does not speak natively English. ;D
Hello.
Meaning of this topic : debate about starting game with a new character in FO:2238 at level 21.
Ok, let's go with a very difficult suggestion.
1./ Fun in FO:2238
FO:2238, as a MMORPG, gives to its players the opportunity to interact with the others. One of the main pleasures of the game mod is to try to survive in a post-apocalyptic world, where you can be killed nearly everywhere in it, because resources are low, because no order remains, because ones want to prevail by force.
This (fun) battle for surviving takes many forms, often illustrated with the contact with other players : raids, town control, caravans traps, trading.
Most of this is about Players versus Players. And most of PvP actions use Lv21 characters.
Fun in FO:2238 is in interactions, mainly in battles, where lv21 is often needed. It also takes place with Role Playing, where no level is needed. You can be Lv1 or 21, you can play your role. You're not equal if battle begins, but you're not even if two of you are Lv21. If it is, competence, equipment or character orientation will affect the issue of the battle.
2./ Why leveling in FO:2238 is not fun
Before becoming Lv21 and be able to take part in PvP actions, you need to level. Some ways of doing that :
- Player(s) versus Environment
- Quests
PvE can take place between environment and a group of players. Multiplayer interaction is here, and could be fun sometimes. Quests are often made solely. Fun in PvE and quests is largely unshared. Personally I hate quests and PvE in MMOG. Group PvE is something for multiplayer games, not massively multiplayer games, because the main purpose of a massively multiplayer game is to create a world where you don't need so much NPC.
It takes at least something like ten hours to get to lv21. And most players engaged in PvP tells me that 3 characters by players is needed for the moment to be effective (warrior, crafter...). Personally, I think it is a great mistake that we need more that 1 character, but I don't think a solo character should be able to do everything. MMOG means cooperation. But PvP players tells me that 3 characters are needed to gain time and be effective.
3./ Why should we start at level 21?
A/
We saw that the fun is often with multiplayer actions. We also saw that because we are in a MMOG, it's logical that a majority of interactions take place only between players.
Leveling is painful, as surviving is. But if surviving is part of the fun in PvP, trade, dangers of trip through the Wasteland, it's not really fun in leveling. In fact, the main purpose of leveling is to be Lv21. Is it really needed to go by leveling to begin the real fun?
Leveling is a result of the fact that FO:2238 try to preserve the fun of Fallout. But Fallout was a solo game, and by there, leveling had a meaning, because you were only interacting with non player characters, and your possibilities were growing along with your progression.
Here, leveling is a pain because you can't be effective in PvP, where lv21 is needed, and you are constrained to interact with NPC in expectation of obtaining Lv21.
B/
Because it's only at level 21 that a player get to the real thing, we should start at 21. Leveling is uninteresting.
Yes, leveling could be more interesting, if quests are better, or by other ways. But ask yourself, is leveling so important in a Massively Multiplayer RPG? MMORPG often use leveling, but mainly because it's a residue of solo games. And new MMORPG use it again because it became a norm. FO:2238 is different than other MMORPG, and is still in BETA.
Starting at lv21 should be considered, maybe only as a test. It could make the Wasteland more living, because now, all the leveling characters are soloing in some place. The result : desert cities, less interactions, less players interacting.
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Not going to happen.
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If you start play this game (first time) you'll be bored after you got 21st level and some monthes.
If you start play this game and instantly start at 21st level (wtf?) you'll be bored in one month, may be less.
But:
If you played it already and start at 1st level, you'll be bored at the 1st second after opening character sheet.
If you played it already and start at 21st level, you'll make some test/crazy build and get some fun for few days, untill you're bored.
Result:
Players will play more if it'll stay as it is now.
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Leveling is one aspect of this game, it would be just stupid to start at level 21.
Because it's only at level 21 that a player get to the real thing, we should start at 21.
There are lots of fun stuff which you can do just fine, without being level 21.
Most of this is about Players versus Players.
No, just no. There are lots of people doing trading, crafting, roleplaying too. PvP is only a small aspect in this game.
Leveling is uninteresting.
Before becoming Lv21 and be able to take part in PvP actions, you need to level. Some ways of doing that :
* Player(s) versus Environment
* Quests
Hah, if you kill floaters/centaurs/mutated molerats all day, and do the same quests again and again, it becomes booooring. There are many different ways to level!
And remember, this game is still a beta.
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And remember, this game is still a beta.
Yes, it's why I create this topic. If the game was finish, It would be nonsense to try changing it so radically.
it will be boring.
I don't know. It's right that leveling takes time and hold the player, but if the mod is well done, a level 21 should never get bored. When you see town control and raids, it's often only lv21 players. The others live in another world, if I can put it that way. The leveling part is like a tutorial. But you can learn even starting on 21.
No, just no. There are lots of people doing trading, crafting, roleplaying too.
But trading (wich includes crafting in my way of thinking) and role playing do not depend so much on the level. It's another subject I think. Role Playing with or without leveling is the same. It does not imply that leveling is fun or necessary.
Leveling is one aspect of this game, it would be just stupid to start at level 21.
Yes, it's a part of the game. But is it really so necessary ? What does it give to the experience ?
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And because people like this this game looks like it looks. Period.
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No... no ... no, god no.... You forgot the economy, "Hey I'll just make a tier 3 crafter of frikkin everything and be rich!" It will fuck more things up than meets the eye...
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No... no ... no, god no.... You forgot the economy, "Hey I'll just make a tier 3 crafter of frikkin everything and be rich!" It will fuck more things up than meets the eye...
Yes, it's a real issue of my proposition. I must admit it. But I really like you to think about it and try to answer me. It's not just about changing the game, it's about trying to rethink why leveling exist, if it is or not only a pain in the ass, if it divides the community and cut the multiplayers interactions...
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Nah, even thought levelling is basically a period of time which you spend doing whatever you find most efficient way to level up it still has potential to "build" your character's nature. For example if you level up by killing ncr caravans you will most likely live the rest of your life as the enemy of ncr. But that's just a theory.
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Omg wait for SDK , Then make your own server. Then we can make that suggestions in your forum .
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This is joke.. right?
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Please, my suggestion stays a suggestion. You can't just kill it with "it won't happen" or "this is a joke?". I'm not suggesting that to destroy what exists, but to think about why some things are the way they are, and if they really are so obviously right.
edit : The real flaw of this suggestion is that everyone could easily make a crafter and multiply the equipment available. Ammos, guns and other must stay a rarity to keep the post-apo feeling. But I think we could find a way to avoid this, it's another debate that could come after the first one.
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But really think.. who want started playing in lvl 21?
It can be funny sometime, but not as much than you started lvl 1.
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So leveling is fun ?
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So leveling is fun ?
Its grind, every game not just MMOs have grinds, normally grindalish, grinding , and more grinding, FOnline: 2238 is no different.
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No... it is a joke from a bored player, isn't it ?
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So leveling is fun ?
Yes i like leveling :)
I'm not like instant to lvl 21.
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Its grind, every game not just MMOs have grinds, normally grindalish, grinding , and more grinding, FOnline: 2238 is no different.
No it's not. If you're a new player you level up by exploring. You meet new towns, make quests there, kill monsters on the way and craft stuff. It's our players' fault that we make so many new characters because we think we need to and this causes the exping feel like grinding. Stop making more characters, make one which you like most and play with it.
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No it's not. If you're a new player you level up by exploring. You meet new towns, make quests there, kill monsters on the way and craft stuff. It's our players' fault that we make so many new characters because we think we need to and this causes the exping feel like grinding. Stop making more characters, make one which you like most and play with it.
THAT IS ... Technically grinding but the thing is there are two kinds of grinding... There is the good/fun grinds that are one time only and there are the horribly boring Forevermoreones.... We need more good ones...
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Whether the OP is serious or not, I would say that FOnline's endgame is what has always received the most attention. By a long way.
The levelling process doesn't seem to have been mapped out - no idea of where new players should start and the paths through the game world. What gear they should be using, what towns they should be in and what quests should be open to them.
Maybe the new encounter tables will mark the beginning of this. I hope so.
How does one level up in FOnline besides encounter grinding? What do you guys tend to do?
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Ok, I think I was wrong puting the fault to the level 1 start. The real problem is that the leveling process cut the multiplayers interractions greatly, because it got stucked at a solo conception of leveling. Nearly every MMORPG made this fault.
Adding more quests could make the leveling "less unfun", but the cut in interactions would be the same. Group quests are a false solution, because it gets the interactions at the level of a multiplayers RPG, not a massively multiplayer one.
Some MMORPG partially avoid the problem by changing the way of leveling. In EVE Online, the leveling process is made by skills selectioning that are upgraded through IG and IRL time. Like an upgrading plan.
In Ultima Online, the upgrading was made by using skills. Unlike Dungeons and Dragons original system, you don't win experience points by achieving monsters and quests, every movement using a skill contributes to upgrade it.
This way, you are not condemned to isolate yourself to level, your battle interactions with other players upgrade your skills too.
In a NeverWinter Nights 2 server I was on, talking (Role Playing communication) was making the player gaining experience points.
These are some ways to keep a leveling system without cuting the interactive experience.
I think the real way to keep interactions between players is to promote Role Playing actions. By Role Playing actions, I mean all actions that have a long term influence to the world.
We call MMORPG worlds "persistent" and this caracteristic is the main interesting thing about them.
I think instead of starting to level 21, the leveling system should evolve to something more inovative and MM oriented.
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In a NeverWinter Nights 2 server I was on, talking (Role Playing communication) was making the player gaining experience points.
Man, this is brilliant! I'd love to see that. Imagine... People specialized in bartening, speaking, transporting people would finally find a good, RPG-style way to level up their characters. They don't exist to kill. They could level up by doing their actual job.
Finding a way to make it working would be hard, though :P Like checking, if the sentence makes sense, if you are actually talking to someone and you don't spam... Never gonna happen :(
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It worked on the NWN2 server, but I don't know how. First they were moderators, and I think they were some scripted rules that check the good way to use the dialog system. But it's clear that some ones tried and would try here to abuse the system.
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I can think of at least 100 people who would abuse the living shit out of it... In this community...
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I figured out the leveling wasn't the problem. The problem is that currently, the leveling means using non massively multiplayers gameplay mechanics, like PvE or quests.
There is no point to remove PvE or quests become some players like it, but we should find new ways of leveling, more in accord with a MMOG.
This topic can be closed to avoid useless discussion.
I might create a new topic "Find new ways of leveling".