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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Glave on August 09, 2010, 03:28:50 pm
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What is sneak?
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050719190304/fallout/images/2/21/Sneak.gif)
Quiet movement, and the ability to remain unnoticed. If successful, you will be much harder to locate.
-Quote from Fallout wiki
What sneak is supposed to be?
A skill allowing players to scout an area, plan their attacks carefully and make decisions adequate to the enemy's behaviour. It's also supposed to put a player out of harm's way, should he succeed to vanish from the pursuiting opposition's eyesight.
What is sneak right now?
Sneak right now is too multi-purpose. The scenario below is a bit complicated, but it should provide a brief explantation to the problem:
Two gangs are fighting each other, with, let's say five men each. Gang A has a team consisted only of snipers (10 perception plus sharpshooter, view range of 56), whileas Gang B has a team of psycho addicts(1 perception, view range of 23). Both gangs lose a member. Snipers are formed in a line, psychos are engaging them in close combat(5 hexes away from them). Gang A's member corpse is lying right next to the formed line, gang B's member corpse is lying 3 hexes away from the rest of the team, behind them. Here's what a single sneaker is able to do:
a)He/she will loot the Gang B's psycho that has fallen first in battle, knowing that snipers might see him as they will be facing his side, but they will be unable to react due to the offense leaded by close-quarter Gang B;
b)With a bit of luck, there will be only one, two players left on the battlefield and because there is no good protection against plasma damage except for Tesla Armor, he will finish off the remaining players and loot safely.
c)Because of psycho's damage resistance, Gang B will surely beat Gang A, which is very beneficial for the sneaker, as players with 1 PE(damaged by psycho's negative effect) are unable to detect a sneaking character from more than 3 hexes, allowing him/her to loot safely and fall back into the world map.
Gang B sobs, as there are no spoils of battle, even though they won(maybe except for armors, depending on the carry weight of the sneaking character)
Nerfing sneak.
First of all, it's very tedious that players aren't having their sneak broken by simple actions, such as looting a corpse, opening a door, providing first aid etc. Sneak is an ability that should allow players to MOVE unnoticed, not act completely in stealth. Thus, any actions taken while in sneak disable this mode
Secondly, running in sneak towards a player just to burst him with a big gun from 1 hex away is not the way to go. Players breaking their sneak mode should suffer from a 15 second cooldown for this skill, as well as negative action points(same as when a knockout or knockdown occurs), rendering them unable to take action for a certain duration.
An example of action point penalty shown below.
(http://www.image-share.com/upload/318/299.png)
This would enforce players to leave sneak behind some cover, inside buildings and then take action, instead of instantly jumping into fights and looting.
Thirdly, the minimum detection range should have a formula of it's own. There are situations in which you cannot see a sneaker in a 5x5 room, while having a character with 10 PE. The new formula should be as follows:
( 20 + 3*PE ) \ 7, rounded down
thus giving a player with 1 PE the current range of 3 hexes, whileas snipers with a view range of 56 would detect sneak at the range of 8 hexes.
Please, keep in mind that the numbers are just an example. They are not reflecting exactly how it would look in the game, as it would be a matter of balance, but as of now, the values above seem to be a good way to prevent sneak from giving players invisibility.
Every comment is taken into consideration for reworking my idea, so don't be afraid to post your thoughts!
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i am in from detection of sneaky caracters, like in FT, but not for any penalty in sneak
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as Solar said he has a sneak char and he likes to use it, and dont call it sneak, this is magic ...
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Yeah. As of now, sneak is the invisibility spell.
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I agree that sneak should be reworked so we can avoid situation, when some characters are invisible while standing in an open field. UP
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Sneak should work like that:
Sneaker should be mostly seen when he is in front or front-sides of a person, he could only hide when being behind an obstacle or at huge distance.
But when the sneaker is on back(-sides), he shouldn't be seen at all! So you could actually sneak close to your enemy and inflict a deadly blow. More realism, more tactics and thinking, more fun :P
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Upping the discussion since a fix to sneak should be prioritized.
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In ideal world sneak would work as it works now (or even better) for unarmed/mele chars, so they would be able to use Silent Death perk (mainly at night) and do some serious damage to SG snipers or BG rocket/miniguners. The way I see it sneaked mele ninja should be able to hit'n'run and he should be snipers nightmare. Also rocket/grenade builds should be afraid of sneaked mele guy since their attacks are AoE ergo they hurt themselves too if they attack such guy when he is too close to them. Anyway burst build should be sneaked mele guys nemesis because close range=a lot of bullets in his chest.
BUT sneak should not work this way for other builds like miniguners. For other builds it should be as you described it. A tool to scout the area, do some recon and then strike with full power or if necessary hide a bit.
But I'm kinda out of ideas how to achieve this.
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The way I see it sneaked mele ninja should be able to hit'n'run and he should be snipers nightmare.
Point blank burst will be always better than any melee/unarmed attack, only if they implement jedi lightsaber, so ninjas with combat knives sneaking to thier victims to stab them will work worst than ninjas with P90C's sneaking to thier victims to burst them.
Only if there will be silent weapons such needler and all unarmed and melee except for ripper won't make you visible after attack, then you can call them ninjas, but it will be way to unbalanced to shoot someone's eyes from needler and then shout "Ha ha ha" over all town and they won't see you, then needler removed from silent weapons, so all unarmed and melee weapon will be silent, but still it'll be permanent invisibility spell and you'll act like dark templar from star craft... hmm new PvP-melee class?
So melee and unarmed won't work good unless it won't break sneak, as you can see this suggestion about removing all APs to make sneak works only to move and nothing more to prevent from stealing objects from field. So I may only suggest to get small limit of weight which won't give penalty to your carry weight at all, it'll be X (insert here number equal to Weight of Combat Knife+Weight of Leather Jacket+Little bonus for carrying something light) so X=0,9+3=~4+little bonus of 1=5 or 4.9, if your carry weight =<5 you have no penality to sneak, if >5 every 1 of weight will give you like -15% to your sneak skill, and if you carry more than 15 weight, you can't use skill at all.
Weight of plasma/frag grenade = 0.45 = ~0.5 if you're naked you can carry 5/0.5=10 or 11 grenades, 12th and next grenades will reduce your skill on 15%, leather jacket weight is 3, it's 11-6=5 grenades to be without penalty.
P90C's weight is 3.6 x24 10mm AP weight 0.432 = ~4 +0.4 for every other clip for gun. Naked with p90c and some rounds can still run without penalty.
LSW's weight is 9, it (9-5)x15=60% penalty already + 0.54 weight of every 30 .223 ammo so it's half for 15% penalty, so it'll be like 75% for LSW + 60 .223
Minigun is 12.7 = ~13 weight + 0.96 for every 120 5mm AP, so minigun + x1 clip = ~14 weight, it's 135% penalty... it's alot.
Picking up miniguns and LSWs from dead bodies of your friends will make you partly visible 'cause of big penalty to sneak skill, picking up alot stuff to have total >15 carry weight will remove you sneak skill at all, so you'll be totally visible.
That's all I can suggest.
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give sneakers penalty for holding weapon in hands, like 40-50% for BG/EW, 20-30% for smg/rifles, 10-20% for pistols, 10% for grenades (for each grenade in hands, lol :), and half penalty for inactive slot (second hand)
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give sneakers penalty for holding weapon in hands, like 40-50% for BG/EW, 20-30% for smg/rifles, 10-20% for pistols, 10% for grenades (for each grenade in hands, lol :), and half penalty for inactive slot (second hand)
Simple make weight impact much more than it's now, don't need to do something with BG or weapon or anything else at all in hands or other places of body.
Right now you can run with 2 miniguns and BA in inventory and have only -39% to your sneak. It looks like a joke.
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Simple make weight impact much more than it's now, don't need to do something with BG or weapon or anything else at all in hands or other places of body.
Right now you can run with 2 miniguns and BA in inventory and have only -39% to your sneak. It looks like a joke.
Weight penalty sux and solves nothing. On the other side penalties for active slot seems much more viable solution. Also it could still make sneaking possible even for regular fight snipers or big gunners since they could keep weapons in inventory and equip them later.
Definitely way better combat solution than increasing weight penalties.
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lets think about it, how can someone sneak in the middle of a street? how can someoen sneak with 2 avengers and armors in his inventory? how can someone sneak 3 hexes from another guy and open fire ? how can someone loot stuff in the middle of a street ?
atm sneak is magic, must be nerfed and it must be done now, no loot, no weapon, huge penalties for weight,
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Weight penalty sux and solves nothing.
So I may only suggest to get small limit of weight which won't give penalty to your carry weight at all, it'll be X (insert here number equal to Weight of Combat Knife+Weight of Leather Jacket+Little bonus for carrying something light) so X=0,9+3=~4+little bonus of 1=5 or 4.9, if your carry weight =<5 you have no penality to sneak, if >5 every 1 of weight will give you like -15% to your sneak skill, and if you carry more than 15 weight, you can't use skill at all.
Weight of plasma/frag grenade = 0.45 = ~0.5 if you're naked you can carry 5/0.5=10 or 11 grenades, 12th and next grenades will reduce your skill on 15%, leather jacket weight is 3, it's 11-6=5 grenades to be without penalty.
P90C's weight is 3.6 x24 10mm AP weight 0.432 = ~4 +0.4 for every other clip for gun. Naked with p90c and some rounds can still run without penalty.
LSW's weight is 9, it (9-5)x15=60% penalty already + 0.54 weight of every 30 .223 ammo so it's half for 15% penalty, so it'll be like 75% for LSW + 60 .223
Minigun is 12.7 = ~13 weight + 0.96 for every 120 5mm AP, so minigun + x1 clip = ~14 weight, it's 135% penalty... it's alot.
Picking up miniguns and LSWs from dead bodies of your friends will make you partly visible 'cause of big penalty to sneak skill, picking up alot stuff to have total >15 carry weight will remove you sneak skill at all, so you'll be totally visible.
If say in short:
=<5 carry weight: your sneak skill = your sneak skill, you have no penalties, you can carry melee weapon and even jacket, you can carry grenades, pistol, smg, even rifle and have room for ammo to run with 0% penalty.
>5 && =<15 carry weight: every 1 weight after 5 will decrease sneak on 15%, you'll have little (for 330% sneak) penalty with LSW and some ammo, slight penalty for minigun. If you use jacket+hunting rifle+~40 .223 ammo you'll have penalty of ~30% to your sneak, it's not that much, if you're in bluesuit, then you'll not suffer penalty at all, because your carry weight will be less than 5.
>15 carry weight: your sneak disabled, picking up few miniguns, sniper/laser rifles and metal armor from dead bodies and then run without being noticed?
With this system you still can use grenades, rifles and even LSW, you'll not bother exploiting your main hand slots by equiping and unequiping items when need, you simply will not carry items which can supply an army of people in inventory and being unnoticed at the same time. And you still can be invisible with most x1 weapon (not few more weapons in inventory) and ammo for it.
P.S. Also leather jacket should give bonus to sneak to partly or totally negate it's weight, and if you use jacket and have less than 5 carry weight (jacket has 3 itself) it should improve your sneak with this little bonus beyond 300%, because it's not serious to see bluesuiters-only in sneak with this system.
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lets think about it, how can someone sneak in the middle of a street? how can someoen sneak with 2 avengers and armors in his inventory? how can someone sneak 3 hexes from another guy and open fire ? how can someone loot stuff in the middle of a street ?
atm sneak is magic, must be nerfed and it must be done now, no loot, no weapon, huge penalties for weight,
How can someone survive 10 hits in the head with sledge hammer?
Its game not reality and mele chars should have their place in combat too and sneak seems like the best way how to achieve that.
2 RavenousRat: Ah I see that now :).
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Ghosts are everywhere ! - That s how i see actually pvp , tc system.Feel free to be like inside of big brother house.
Inventory weight which dont increasing sneak skill is the most stupid thing - for example a guy with 300sneak can loot 120 kilos of armors,ammo,guns from the battlefield and run away from city due TC.
Another dude with 300sneak and 9kilo LSW weapon in his hand is propably Harry Potter brother with magical skills, he can at opern area run to your back and put that rifle in your ass and burst.
In my opinion sneak should be nerfed.Now its big imba.
Weight due looting, and invisibility at open area - need to fix
My solution - sneak could be ingame like a scouts or something like it s already but sneak should work properly, when player use it behind barrels, standing near trees,near walls, buildings etc.
When you will detect sneak;er(see him in your FOV) you mustn;t shoot him to deactivate his sneak mode - he must hide somewhere else again and turn on his sneak again.(Now many times you loosing AP, your char is shooting and nothing happen and sneak;er run away in front of your nose)
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wut? every weapon does some dmg, u want 1 shoot = 1 kill game ? magic is magic and u want it to stay as it is, b/c u abuse and expoit this feature, town control takes 15 minutes now, why cannot they nerf the sneak right now ?
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How can you hold 10 miniguns and 10 BAs at once in your inventory(imagine it in real life. Possible? not)?
This game is not about reality. We could change it so it's more real, but only, when it makes gameplay better. We won't suffer worse gameplay just because someone wanted to make the game real. Sneak, 10 hits in the head with sledgehammer as Sius said, 10 miniguns and 10 BAs in inventory are not real, but thanks to them the game is fun.
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the sneak as it is, is killing the game and fun, before if u came in new reno or mine u could see ur enemy run away or defend urself, now u cannot do anything, the only safe place is the one with ur militia, i havent been in new reno for the last 3-4 weeks the only thing u can find there is a couple blue sneakers with lsr or plasma nades, before u could have some quick fights here and there 2v2 3v3 2v3 now if u dont use ur sneak acc u will be useless except TC where u have >10 ur mates around u, there is many other problems like loot etc... many people have already mentioned them, the biggest problem is no action apart from TC
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This game is not about reality. We could change it so it's more real, but only, when it makes gameplay better. We won't suffer worse gameplay just because someone wanted to make the game real. Sneak, 10 hits in the head with sledgehammer as Sius said, 10 miniguns and 10 BAs in inventory are not real, but thanks to them the game is fun.
Now the game is fun ? I m of a different opinion,because of that whole not fixed / nerfed things.
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Im recieving a lot of fun by killing like 10 people with my teammates and then just looking that all stuff dissapearing to nowhere.
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Presently sneek is with all might used for pillage after 2nd character relog...
That spoil combats in towns...
Closing sneek when personage loot some stuff from ground is the best way to make towncontrol interesting.
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What is sneak?
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050719190304/fallout/images/2/21/Sneak.gif)
Quiet movement, and the ability to remain unnoticed. If successful, you will be much harder to locate.
-Quote from Fallout wiki
What sneak is supposed to be?
A skill allowing players to scout an area, plan their attacks carefully and make decisions adequate to the enemy's behaviour. It's also supposed to put a player out of harm's way, should he succeed to vanish from the pursuiting opposition's eyesight.
What is sneak right now?
Sneak right now is too multi-purpose. The scenario below is a bit complicated, but it should provide a brief explantation to the problem:
Two gangs are fighting each other, with, let's say five men each. Gang A has a team consisted only of snipers (10 perception plus sharpshooter, view range of 56), whileas Gang B has a team of psycho addicts(1 perception, view range of 23). Both gangs lose a member. Snipers are formed in a line, psychos are engaging them in close combat(5 hexes away from them). Gang A's member corpse is lying right next to the formed line, gang B's member corpse is lying 3 hexes away from the rest of the team, behind them. Here's what a single sneaker is able to do:
a)He/she will loot the Gang B's psycho that has fallen first in battle, knowing that snipers might see him as they will be facing his side, but they will be unable to react due to the offense leaded by close-quarter Gang B;
b)With a bit of luck, there will be only one, two players left on the battlefield and because there is no good protection against plasma damage except for Tesla Armor, he will finish off the remaining players and loot safely.
c)Because of psycho's damage resistance, Gang B will surely beat Gang A, which is very beneficial for the sneaker, as players with 1 PE(damaged by psycho's negative effect) are unable to detect a sneaking character from more than 3 hexes, allowing him/her to loot safely and fall back into the world map.
Gang B sobs, as there are no spoils of battle, even though they won(maybe except for armors, depending on the carry weight of the sneaking character)
Nerfing sneak.
First of all, it's very tedious that players aren't having their sneak broken by simple actions, such as looting a corpse, opening a door, providing first aid etc. Sneak is an ability that should allow players to MOVE unnoticed, not act completely in stealth. Thus, any actions taken while in sneak disable this mode
Secondly, running in sneak towards a player just to burst him with a big gun from 1 hex away is not the way to go. Players breaking their sneak mode should suffer from a 15 second cooldown for this skill, as well as negative action points(same as when a knockout or knockdown occurs), rendering them unable to take action for a certain duration.
An example of action point penalty shown below.
(http://www.image-share.com/upload/318/299.png)
This would enforce players to leave sneak behind some cover, inside buildings and then take action, instead of instantly jumping into fights and looting.
Thirdly, the minimum detection range should have a formula of it's own. There are situations in which you cannot see a sneaker in a 5x5 room, while having a character with 10 PE. The new formula should be as follows:
( 20 + 3*PE ) \ 7, rounded down
thus giving a player with 1 PE the current range of 3 hexes, whileas snipers with a view range of 56 would detect sneak at the range of 8 hexes.
Please, keep in mind that the numbers are just an example. They are not reflecting exactly how it would look in the game, as it would be a matter of balance, but as of now, the values above seem to be a good way to prevent sneak from giving players invisibility.
Every comment is taken into consideration for reworking my idea, so don't be afraid to post your thoughts!
+10000000000000000000
Sneaker are supposed to be scout, not looter or fighter!
ATM when we have a town control operation all the sneak come in the town, take 0 risk and loot like pussy. So 10-15 RDA fight 10-15 from us, but we saw something like 30 sneaker in the town belong to 0 team just there to loot or stuff. Make 0 sens!!!!!!!!!
And don't say you just have to protect the loot, when you fight RDA or Rogue or Smash force you have other thing to do than stay on loot!
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And:
As for me "sneek" is not the best skill in FO since it kills tactician in game...
And sneekers-looters is one of the buggest defect of game's "mechanics" on this moment/
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there is CS no RDA, and yes sneak is bullshit atm, on top of that u have got this big green thing saying "xxxx is taking Broken Hills" which means ALL SNEAKERS IN THE WASTELAND please COME GET FREE STUFF U RISK NOTHING
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The only thing that in my opinion should be nerfed about sneak if we keep the current system is looting - WHEN YOU LOOT, YOUR SNEAK TURNS OFF. That's all.
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The only thing that in my opinion should be nerfed about sneak if we keep the current system is looting - WHEN YOU LOOT, YOUR SNEAK TURNS OFF.
And when you see sneak'er in your Field Of View- his sneak turns off, not shooting and loosing AP because he moved 1`hex farther.
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The only thing that in my opinion should be nerfed about sneak if we keep the current system is looting - WHEN YOU LOOT, YOUR SNEAK TURNS OFF. That's all.
b/c u have combat sneak acc which is bullshit, u all say what u like not what supposed to be done, sneak is overpowered and should have been nerfed or removed
no more sneak combat acc, no more sneak looters we want changes now
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u have combat sneak acc which is bullshit
no more sneak combat acc
Ever heard of people called ninjas? They exist(ed) and they were not bullshit. Todays FOnline ninjas are sneaking too, they just use another weapon(modern/future ones). Of course, people could make a melee sneakers, but they would just fail because of the build you would have to make and the fact, that you can be seen from 3 hexes even from behind.
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Ever heard of people called ninjas? They exist(ed) and they were not bullshit. Todays FOnline ninjas are sneaking too, they just use another weapon(modern/future ones). Of course, people could make a melee sneakers, but they would just fail because of the build you would have to make and the fact, that you can be seen from 3 hexes even from behind.
I think we all heard about them but they could make such things not in open area like in FO...As i suggest , hide behind barrels,trees etc use your sneak like that and it will be interesting.