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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: zuhardu on June 13, 2010, 04:15:19 am
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So, i spent the last two weeks around Geko mine. I meet all kinds of PKs there, the noob ones, the many ones (also stupidest), the pro ones and the invincible ones. I've got a really good build, i tried a over a dozen chars before i reach this build. Even thou i am a sniper, i faced a lot of close combat chars and won, helped by experince and a very good build.
Every player with some experience at this game knows the sneaky grenade guys in the Geko mine wich are almost imposible to kill. No matter what build you use, you can't take those guys. I also talked with a few friends and they agreed. Sneak is overpowered. BG and throwing guys that use it, are almost invincible. So i understand they could sneak a few hexes to a 7-8 PE biggunner, but i am a sniper, a 10 PE. Nobody should get so close of a sniper, it's ridiculous. I have 10 PE and can shoot those guys only near me. A sniper is a character that should have the best view of the battle, not equal with a 4 PE unarmed character.
So, i suggest that the snipers could use a perk or improve PE so they could spot sneaked chars earlier than others. Like i said, it should be imposible to sneak near a facing sniper. We have no chance against those characters. If so, we will all do the sneaky grenade build and get it over with. Even so, adding a perk for spotting would greatlly weak our sniper builds.
Sorry for my english and enjoy the game. Cheers!
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I actually have to agree such builds are practicially invincible also but they're somewhat rare in comparison to powerbuilds, due to their extra difficulty in levelling such a build.
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Come on, if you have friends or a faction you know there is no character hard to level. I've got a friend's doctor to lvl 10 near Necropolis just by knocking down ghouls and let him kill them, so no, this cannot be a good reason for those builds to exist.
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if you have a problem with it make a sneak build, it's that simple. Not to mention you hit that guy once his sneak is broken until he gets out of los.
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if you have a problem with it make a sneak build, it's that simple. Not to mention you hit that guy once his sneak is broken until he gets out of los.
Zuhardu just said he spent last two weeks in gecko mines fighting against other pks so he should know what he's talking about. Instead of going along with current settings we should also understand to question whether the current settings are alright. Imagine if zuhardu wasn't powerbuilt sniper but armorer-fighter. How's that armorer is supposed to find skillpoints for good sneak, 180 repair and weapon skill?
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Sounds more a problem with AP 2 Grens than sneak to me.
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i will repeat what i repeat all the time, sneak is not combat skill in first place, its combat avoiding not combat profiting skill, just remove sneak if you have weapon in any of 2 slots.
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i will repeat what i repeat all the time, sneak is not combat skill in first place, its combat avoiding not combat profiting skill, just remove sneak if you have weapon in any of 2 slots.
You are wrong Vedaras. You.... are.... wrong....
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Zuhardu just said he spent last two weeks in gecko mines fighting against other pks so he should know what he's talking about. Instead of going along with current settings we should also understand to question whether the current settings are alright. Imagine if zuhardu wasn't powerbuilt sniper but armorer-fighter. How's that armorer is supposed to find skillpoints for good sneak, 180 repair and weapon skill?
not possible
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Roachor, i don't want to ofend you but you just don't seem to get it. This is not about my problem with sneak, is about game balance and the lack of logic. In no other game or in real life, a guy runing towards a facing sniper on a open field with a grenade or a 30 kg minigun could be the sniper nemessis. If u have 10 PE it should be imposible not to see the guy in 35-40 meters running towards you in open field.
And about the creating the sneak based char, it's a bad ideea. That's what i said. We could all do that build, but what would then be the pleasure of playing if we all would use that build?
LE: And it's clear that you have no ideea what i am talking about. You do not have the time to kill those guys. Ap for throwing are few, the battle finishes before i even have the time to aim. 4 plasma grenades = 4 seconds. spoting grenardier, aiming, shooting = 3-4 seconds. You maybe shoot once, and that's all, you are dead. Plus, grenades knock you down most of the time...
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without sneak grenade builds would never get close enough to work, and the amount of skill points required to get good sneak means using pretty much all of a 10 int builds points with very little left over. Snipers are long range support, of course they get owned by close range assault.
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without sneak grenade builds would never get close enough to work, and the amount of skill points required to get good sneak means using pretty much all of a 10 int builds points with very little left over. Snipers are long range support, of course they get owned by close range assault.
LOL! You mean, it makes sense? Of course close range assault would own long range in close combat, but how could someone run at a facing sniper without being spoted? Explain that with your good logic! Like i said, sneak could and should be very effective against a 7-8 maybe 9 PE character, but not against a 10 PE sniper facing the attacker.
Anyway, i am just saying, this could not be right. The sneaked characters have no enemy. Every build should have a weak spot and those guys have none.
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LOL! You mean, it makes sense? Of course close range assault would own long range in close combat, but how could someone run at a facing sniper without being spoted? Explain that with your good logic! Like i said, sneak could and should be very effective against a 7-8 maybe 9 PE character, but not against a 10 PE sniper facing the attacker.
Anyway, i am just saying, this could not be right. The sneaked characters have no enemy. Every build should have a weak spot and those guys have none.
Sneak builds require 2 perks and almost all your skill points to sneak leaving little for other skills. One shot breaks your sneak and then you're a sitting duck. Maybe you shouldn't be in the mines alone.
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Sounds more a problem with AP 2 Grens than sneak to me.
What. Frigging. Problem.
Seriously, there's no ranged combat skill as useless as throwing - and you see a problem with the fact that it's 2AP/grenade? Solar, what the hell?
As for the original post - that's just a load of BS. Sneak has been nerfed. It's just incredibly shitty these days and all it allows you to do is stalking bunches of people sitting in the desert from 20 hexes or so. If you didn't find a way of dealing with sneakers using a 10 PE powerbuild you really should work on your fighting skills or make a better char. Furthermore Plasma Nades are useless against CA. Frag nades are useless against anything. Wear a Combat Armor and you kill them with a sniper rifle. Easily. Yeah, sniper rifle in a mine > grenades in a mine. Oh, and it has over 3 times better reach. If anything, Plasma Grenades should cause knockdown again, at least they'd become somewhat usable. Not to mention that mines are quite specific locations and they force close quarters - I'd think that being a sneaky bastard with a bursting weapon or a grenade bundle would help in such circumstances, no?
LOL! You mean, it makes sense? Of course close range assault would own long range in close combat, but how could someone run at a facing sniper without being spoted? Explain that with your good logic! Like i said, sneak could and should be very effective against a 7-8 maybe 9 PE character, but not against a 10 PE sniper facing the attacker.
God, I read the rest of this thread and I raged again. OF COURSE IT MAKES SENSE. Especially since the best you can do against a 10 PE sniper is 330 - 75 = 255 = 8 hex spotting range. And a 330 sneak build is so extreme you're bound to miss a few times. And when it comes to the actual range - it makes as much sense as max player vision range being close to 60 hex and weapon range being 50 hex. It makes more sense if you multiply it by 10 when converting to meters. Probably more like 20. Or accepting it's just a game and some shit is arbitrary.
Anyway, i am just saying, this could not be right. The sneaked characters have no enemy. Every build should have a weak spot and those guys have none.
Yeah, they're so powerful nobody uses them in TC battles anymore ::) The fact of the game is they get killed even in grenade range by any unsurprised BG powerbuild and any critbuild that gets a knockout on them. Knockouts are common. Sneakers have no luck and eat a lot of criticals. Do I need to explain more?
Actually, the only thing a sneakbuild does well (but no longer excells at) is fighting 1v1 against people with weak armor. That's pretty niche and fitting a scout/skirmisher theme, don't you think?
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Seriously, there's no ranged combat skill as useless as throwing
Just by saying this stupid thing you prove you have not read what i've said until now and that you have no ideea what you are talking about, so you really do not deserve an answer.
Still:
Not to mention that mines are quite specific locations and they force close quarters
Again, you prove you are just a lonley troll who doesn't read. I said Geko mine, i has A LOT of open space! Ever been there? Did you even fought those guys that i was talking about? I bet you haven't.
8 hexes is enough when you don't know where the enemy will apear, he's runing and you still have to aim a body part. like i said, and you haven't read
just like a proud troll, they make 240 dmg to a character with 195 hp and 10 toughness in 3-4 seconds. so, no, you can use any buid you want still it's not good enough.
Coming with a CA to a mine is again one of the stupidest thing i ever heard. Only if you want to lose it you would go alone in Geko mine with a CA and a sniper. Trolling again.
I really haven't intended to ofend anybody, i was just telling my opinion about sneak vs 10 PE, but I really can't wach how a agresive troll tells about me that what i wrote is BS when he proofs he has no ideea about what is talking. Thanks the others for their polite answers.
LE: now i've seen the signature, forget i said something, you are just an angry and lonley teenager...
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If you are losing to sneak builds, you need to improve your skills or your build. I am a sniper with 8 PE and I can take down sneakers (not all the time of course).
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Seriously, there's no ranged combat skill as useless as throwing - and you see a problem with the fact that it's 2AP/grenade? Solar, what the hell?
I don't really think anything should be able to get down to 2AP with a knockback. Any situation where you can concievably remove the ability to act from a player isn't that great.
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I don't really think anything should be able to get down to 2AP with a knockback. Any situation where you can concievably remove the ability to act from a player isn't that great.
sg snipers can be just as annoying, i had one pin me down in klamathon my hth char, 250 hp and 2xtoughness. Took the guy like 35 shots with what i think was a hunting rifle and pretty much every crit (2/3 the shots) knocked me down/out. Really annoying just watching your health slowly trickle down like that.
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I really haven't intended to ofend anybody, i was just telling my opinion about sneak vs 10 PE, but I really can't wach how a agresive troll tells about me that what i wrote is BS when he proofs he has no ideea about what is talking. Thanks the others for their polite answers.
LE: now i've seen the signature, forget i said something, you are just an angry and lonley teenager...
Ok, so let me introduce myself. BBS leader, #1 in Ares tournament, #1 in NA vs DA event, my side never lost a round in both and my gang often dominates TC... but yeah, I don't know what I'm talking about when we're discussing combat system and builds... and yeah, I tend to rage when I see people with little to no game experience come here trying to "enlighten" people with infinitely more experience as to how fighting in this game works. Oh, and I'm way over 20 with a MA thesis done.
And yes, I did my 1vX share of fighting in the mines too - both before and after the sneak nerf. But I'd never be unimaginative enough to use a team combat support build and complain it sux in this scenario. You sound like a guy who complains that he can't turn the screws in with a hammer so screwdrivers should be nerfed.
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well, it deepends what kind of hammer you're talking about, but seriously, you can't do shit against a good sneaker, the entire game system needs a change, but it'll probably need a different engine to achieve it.... but still, i don't really mind using a sneaky grenadier build and the procedure to level one solo beyond boring, i've pretty much abandoned the game for the most part, but i pop in from time to time tojust screw about with the game mechanics, so I wouldn't really know or care much about the curent situation in the mines, i get all I need from PvE combat, and then trading it in for ammo and caps at the merchants, and then using the goods to haggle with in-town advertisers, not being in a faction mostly sucks, and i don't really have the patience with people who don't follow strategy to the letter.
Summary of valid points:
1 yes, sneak is a bitch
2 yes, leveling a sneaker is boring as hell
3 if you can't beat em the logical solution would be to exploit the living shit out of em
4 the 2 ap per grenade is fair for non-knockdowns in casual play, but in full scale PvP knockdowns are essential to keep your enemy on
his belly (or back) so your pals can take him out.
-End of Log
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Sneak is overpowered. BG and throwing guys that use it, are almost invincible.
Sounds more a problem with AP 2 Grens than sneak to me.
Why ignore the claim of throwing AND big guns being invincible with sneak builds, in a situation where the person is presumably camping in advance.
I've been planning out my own throwing build to test out to see how effective it is without relying on sneak. The problems throwing builds face are somewhat similar to HtH, but i actually have a chance. With a maximum range of 15 I have to get pretty damn close to my target, while they presumably can keep rushing away from me. I simply have a huge advantage once i'm in range (although they can easily just keep running away, much like you would with hth). Sneak provides that advantage.
Rather than changing the 2ap, wouldn't it be FAR more reasonable to decrease the chance that I knock the person down? It removes the problem you mentioned in another post, and keeps grenades at least a little bit useful. I don't know absolutely for sure, but if its 100% chance to knockdown now, then why not give a 3-5% chance to avoid knockdown for every point of endurance?
I thought endurance already did something like that, maybe I'm thinking of cripple though?
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You could make it 66% chance to knockdown or increase the AP from 2 to 3 and increase the damage by 50% - the only difference would be you use more money in the 2 AP 66% chance version.
Endurance is a factor in crippling, but part of Grenades and Rockets niche is that they always cause a knockback. No reason to change that really.
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You could make it 66% chance to knockdown or increase the AP from 2 to 3 and increase the damage by 50% - the only difference would be you use more money in the 2 AP 66% chance version.
Endurance is a factor in crippling, but part of Grenades and Rockets niche is that they always cause a knockback. No reason to change that really.
Weird. I didn't see any knockback (that's what I meant by knockdown earlier) with plasma grenades, and I've thrown plenty. Only damage dealt, no special effect. Could it have anything to do with having luck 1? On the other hand, I cause knockback each time I throw a frag (but it sucks because of low damage, can't kill anyone with that aside from bluesuits).
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Pretty sure all Grenades were meant to have knockback, player luck shouldn't be any factor in it. I thought the original post was about constantly being knocked back with AP2 stuff.
Odd, well, will need to investigate it for myself when I get back from work.
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Pretty sure all Grenades were meant to have knockback, player luck shouldn't be any factor in it. I thought the original post was about constantly being knocked back with AP2 stuff.
Odd, well, will need to investigate it for myself when I get back from work.
Wasn't it nerfed by devs because it was super easy to chain stun and kill anyone with plasma nades?
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Wasn't it nerfed by devs because it was super easy to chain stun and kill anyone with plasma nades?
I don't think grenades were nerfed, were they? I know frag grenades were nerfed down to 5 per production (as opposed to 10). I believe plasma grenades are the same at 10 per production. Beyond that were they nerfed?
Beyond that quick question lets avoid threadjacking, and save the discussion of grenades by themselves for another thread elsewhere.
On topic
The original question was the the difficulty of fighting against sneak characters, in particular big guns and grenadiers. Many of the problems of big guns and grenades is the requirement to be relatively close to your target (with the exception of rockets. Miniguns are best at close range, but can do something at longer ranges than greandes)
The advantage of sneaking is that your target must be within a relatively close range, which gives you a massive advantage in regards to grenades/big guns. Where normally your target would see you at a good distance you now have an opponent appearing within about 5-15 hexes with a big surprise. I think the question is how to handle sneaking.
There seems to be 2 main purposes people seem to have have in mind for sneaking. Some believe it should be purely for scouting, others believe it should be ambushing. The advantage of ambushing is very strong, as it should give an advantage. The question is if this advantage is too strong, and if it is too strong, how can we nerf it?
One could either nerf how close people can get with sneak. This is the simplest idea, however nerfing/buffing sneak is an extremely fickle thing. Sneak strikes me as something that nerf even slightly, and it becomes useless. Buff even slightly, and its way overpowered. Because we can spend years trying to find the sweetspot that may not even exist, it would probably be better to nerf/buff sneak in other ways. I don't know what to do, so i'll just throw a handful of possibilities out there that may be picked up, considered, or inspire others.
1.) Limiting the mobility of sneaker characters. This would remove the ability to scout easily, and would turn sneakers more into watchguards for an area. Conversely people can guess where sneakers may hide (Much easier to hide behind something, if people keep their distance and stay in the open then they have a slightly better chance. This does not seem like a good system, but its mainly an idea that could inspire others.
2.) Providing a means for people to find sneakers. This method would preferably slow people down, but would reward those who are slow but cautious. Possibly give more of a reward to those with higher PE (7-10), but in order to avoid overnerfing sneak by making it harder for those with less PE(1-6).
---Subsolution: A simple solution would be to change the minimum 3 range system. Currently you can guarantee see people within 3 hexes. The sneak formula determines how far away you can be before someone sees you, but the idea is that if the sneak is far to high, the 3 hex range trumps the sneak formula.The change would be to have the sneak formula determine the minimum range and then PE/2 = bonus on top of that. Lets say i have enough sneak that I could be 2 hexes away before the person sees me. This person has 6 PE. Now with the current system the person would see me at 3hexes, even though presumably i could be within 2. With the new proposed system it would be 2, + PE/2, which is 3, so i would see the person within 5 hexes instead. If the person has 10PE, then it would 2 + 5, and i would see the person within 7 hexes. This is a straight nerf, so i'm skeptical. Its a start however, and maybe sneak could be buffed in other areas to compensate.
--Subsolution: Make Outdoorsman a "search" skill that you can activate, much like you would activate other skills such as science/sneak/steal/etc. You can only walk while in "search" mod, and the bonus only applies directly in front of you (possibly to the sides, purely details to be finalized later though). This would allow people who are very careful and meticulous to have an advantage if they're willing to take the time to do so. Sneakers still have the option of playing cat and mouse, they simply have to move more and stay behind their target, or stay where the person wouldn't be able to find them as easily (behind buildings)
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Sneak works fine, it's a massive investment of pretty much 80% of all possible skillpoints and you honestly can't do much once they see you, so anyone who dies to a sneaker it isn't because they are op it's because your build is crap or you weren't paying attention/are too low lvl.
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2 pa for throwing a grenade is a little too low but i agree the problem that sneak is involving ! I died with 2 of my friend because of a plasma grenader in TB throwing 8 grenade at us ! 8 grenades no build can resist to it !! And we were using BA !
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2 pa for throwing a grenade is a little too low but i agree the problem that sneak is involving ! I died with 2 of my friend because of a plasma grenader in TB throwing 8 grenade at us ! 8 grenades no build can resist to it !! And we were using BA !
should of had higher pe and taken him out first
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With 10 PE, you will see 300% sneak char 45 hexes far from you if he is coming from front, 30 hexes if he is coming front-side, 15 hexes from back-side and 3 hexes from back. So, what overpower are you talking about?
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With 10 PE, you will see 300% sneak char 45 hexes far from you if he is coming from front, 30 hexes if he is coming front-side, 15 hexes from back-side and 3 hexes from back. So, what overpower are you talking about?
lol those are old stats on the wiki, my 300 sneak char is a ghost past 3 hex
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i really dont mind sneaking, and i dont mind grenades. But when put togheter there is really no defense against them.
I fought countless pks using sneak to get in range, then owning me.
Dont get me wrong, i dont mind getting owned either, i died and lost fortunes to pking - such is the hazard, and i embrace it.
But it's no fun getting killed by grenades. You spend all your combat time on your back, cannot run or shoot back, unless in combat armor.
I have 8 PE on my sniper and i NEVER, repet NEVER spotted a grenadier at any range. I even ran around in circles to scan all the area when i knew there was such a dude around, to no avail.
So i do not dispute what you are saying, that sneak is fine and shouldn't be nerfed. But there seems to be a faulty mechanic at work here if i cannot spot the dude that i SHOULD spot. Bug/exploit? Dunno, but it seems im not the only one.
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300% sneak from the front is 225%. 225%/6 = 37.5 taken away from view. Pe 10 is normally 50 hex viewing range, so Pe 10 seeing a 300% Sneak char from the front @ 12.5 hexes
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300% sneak from the front is 225%. 225%/6 = 37.5 taken away from view. Pe 10 is normally 50 hex viewing range, so Pe 10 seeing a 300% Sneak char from the front @ 12.5 hexes
Like the range of grenade is 15, it mean you see him too late, even from front with 10PE ;p
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I see nothing wrong with being able to get into Gren range with 300% sneak and wearing no armour. (I still don't like 2 AP knockdowns, but its nothing to do with sneak)
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I am starting to think that there is something wrong with me, cause a few guys here, don't seem to understand SIMPLE words. Almost perfect build, 8 EN, 10 PE, 10LK, 2xToughness, Lifegiver, Better Critical and 3XMore Critical, I have fought and won most of the pvp i have encounter no matter what builds, this is not a weak build so stop with the bullshit. In almost 100 pvp with those guys i never won!!! The time i got to shoot them after i spoot them is less than they need to kill me! That can't be with 10 PE!
I know there are a few guys here that try to protect their overpowered builds, but things don't make sense... Also, i've seen a lot of BGs that were killed by these guys, is almost the same thing. They need to shoot them 2-3 times to kill them, and they don't have enough time. Today a guy with sneak and grenades killed three of us. He was just throwing grenades like crazy, a friend burst him three times with a LSW and nothing. This is OVERPOWERED, there is no balance in those builds. The scary thing is we could all do this builds and that would spoil the game.
And I don't care if someone is a faction leader or a noob, if he tells me those guys are not so hard to kill, either is crazy or he has no ideea what is he talking about!
LE: i am not saying either that sneak should be changed, i am saying that PE should be changed. if someone puts 10 PE that should really affect the chances of spotting a sneaked character. it's simple logic. and, of course, the plasma grenade do extremly high damage, where is the logic that it costs so few AP? I don''t get it.
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It's just that... 2AP for throwing a grenade... Heh.
Throwing 5 grenades in a row ? Even more heh.
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Hm, Plasmas dont even have knockback, pfft.
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Grenade should be one of the weapons requiring the max AP to throw, and dealing high dmg.
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Yes, plasma don't do knockback and you know why? Cause they don't need to. Read this: 1,2,3,4 - you just died! What's so hard to understand?
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I agree with Izual!
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I agree with Izual.
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I agree with
Yri Izual!
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I agree with Izual.
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I agree with Izual.
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I agree with Izual.
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Plasma nades dont do knockback, they do knock-down.
Other than that, i agree with Izual.
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I definately agree with Izual
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My post gets removed but the thing is all these posts are spam too saying they agree with Izual when the right thing to do is to remove all and add a poll but oh well ::).
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Doesn't matter.
I agree with Izual out of principle, and to possibly save my immortal soul.
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Agree with Izual.
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My post gets removed but the thing is all these posts are spam too saying they agree with Izual when the right thing to do is to remove all and add a poll but oh well ::).
Solar, Mike is right.
I formally request a poll. "Do you agree with Izual"
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Actually Voland don't have to agree with Izual. But why not.
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Well in fallout tactics it takes 6 ap to throw a grenade, makes more sense as the action of throwing takes longer than pulling a trigger. There should be an ability to attack ground to compensate though.
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True. Pull Pin, Throw, Take Cover!
vs.
Aim, Pull Trigger
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True. Pull Pin, Throw, Take Cover!
vs.
Aim, Pull Trigger
Aim, Pull Trigger, Reload.
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Reload is it's own action. If throwing grenades had different modes for pulling the pin and throwing the grenade, then fine. 2 AP + 2 AP = 4 AP. Guns are Fire, which is usually 5 AP, then reload, which is 2 AP = 7 AP.
Still broken.
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anyone mind telling me at what range a guy can spot a 300% sneaker with 10PE and sharpshooter?
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12.5 hex
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I think + 1 AP to Throw (without compensating with + damage per nade) would b the best way to make things fairer.
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so practically speaking that +2 PE vision and +1 PE aiming doesn't do shit for spotting sneakers huh?
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Roachor, i don't want to ofend you but you just don't seem to get it. This is not about my problem with sneak, is about game balance and the lack of logic. In no other game or in real life, a guy runing towards a facing sniper on a open field with a grenade or a 30 kg minigun could be the sniper nemessis. If u have 10 PE it should be imposible not to see the guy in 35-40 meters running towards you in open field.
And about the creating the sneak based char, it's a bad ideea. That's what i said. We could all do that build, but what would then be the pleasure of playing if we all would use that build?
LE: And it's clear that you have no ideea what i am talking about. You do not have the time to kill those guys. Ap for throwing are few, the battle finishes before i even have the time to aim. 4 plasma grenades = 4 seconds. spoting grenardier, aiming, shooting = 3-4 seconds. You maybe shoot once, and that's all, you are dead. Plus, grenades knock you down most of the time...
Actually, every other game that has a sneaker class are invisible to everyone, even when he is right next to you licking your neck before slitting your throat. ....But those other games have spells/abilities to counter it..........
You have to understand your "racial" ability with high PE doesnt give you the right to be OP against another player that spent 90% of skill points in a non-combat skill.
If you nerf sneak, from the moment you enter the game with 10 PE and lvl 1, you will have the upper hand against a lvl 21 sneaker build. THATS unfair.
Tho i agree with big gunners shouldent be allowed to sneak, item based sneak penalty, nuff said.
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Actually, every other game that has a sneaker class are invisible to everyone, there are much lesser FOV penalties, and even when he is right next to you licking your neck before slitting your throat, you dont see him. ....But those other games have spells/abilities to counter it..........
You have to understand your "racial" ability with high PE doesnt give you the right to be OP against another player that spent 90% of skill points in a non-combat skill.
If you nerf sneak, from the moment you enter the game with 10 PE and lvl 1, you will have the upper hand against a lvl 21 sneaker build. THATS unfair.
Tho i agree with big gunners shouldent be allowed to sneak, item based sneak penalty, nuff said.
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so practically speaking that +2 PE vision and +1 PE aiming doesn't do shit for spotting sneakers huh?
Sharpshooter?
and +6 with Sharpshooter perk.
That would take an extra 36% sneak to overcome, which in practise would be 108 skill points. Thats not bad considering it also helps Snipers aim a good deal.
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thanks solar, so it actually helps in sneak spotting, so, by about how many hexes will you be able to find a 300% sneaker from the front, with 10PE and Sharpshooter then?
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I think u call sneak=invisibility than.... sneak is and should not be invisibility... wake up people.
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thanks solar, so it actually helps in sneak spotting, so, by about how many hexes will you be able to find a 300% sneaker from the front, with 10PE and Sharpshooter then?
18 hex