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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Lordus on May 13, 2010, 04:43:58 pm
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Hello,
as you know, i am former member of VSB. VSB is here from the begining of this opend beta project. Some members left, another joined.
Our gang website is related to very old and very good Fallout fan site www.madbrahmin.cz ( i think that cca 10 years old website), so many players of Fallout sometimes visit this web for checking new updates, scenarios or just to talk. This is also our best way how to recruit newbies, or at least, how to help them.
We have kind of application form for newbies, who wants to join us (VSB gang). One part of this dutie is to post yoiur own SPECIAL and other atributes screen. So we have very good statistical sample of newbies. We can simply recognize, if that player did play fonline or did not, because total newbies have their char attributes created from their Fallout single player experience. And here comes the reason cause of i created this thread.
Small gunners aplication number was in same relation like biggunner, only minority was EW.. Most newbies were smallgunners, because they expected that the way from start is quite easy with 10mm pistol, than waiting many days for new big gun.
Smalll gunners, all of them (except returning exmembers) created always the same mistake. I will tell you later, which kind of mistake. At first, i have to simply define something well known.
In PvP, 2 kind of builds now win. 1) big constant damage on low and medium range 2) possibility of very big or instakill damage on high range. In first cathegory there are biggunners bursters, in second cathegory there are EW snipers, SG snipers and BG rocket launcher snipers*.
The newbies SG mistake is that, that they expected, thay will level up their char and they will be able to succeed in PvP. (Yes, they expected this, because in out aplication form is also question Why they want to join us and very common answer is Because we dont want to be simple punished by PKs.). But they have a very big problem in their character building vision. NOBODY from SG newbies created their char with 10 pe and at least 6 luck. Most of them had 7 pe, and smaller luck. Some of them had tagged Fast shot trait.
So problem is, that they expected their char will be able to defend on higher level but they are unable. Their character is unable to use sniper riffle as good as pure snipers and there is not any other PvP ready gun they can use (because all SG bursting weapons are very weak in comparsion to the BG bursting weapons). So they level up and than realize that their effort was useless.
If some newbies realy want to join us we are saying: nice try, but better will be if you will erase this char and create: 1) fighter (we have already created every possible PvP builds ready to fight and win in PvP, junkies or not, we will be very surprised is someone will create new type of char which will dominate in the PvP (i think other major PvP gangs also have this knowledge)). 2) crafter or 2 (gun and armor) 3) maybe miner...
But newbies who are not joining us or other PvP team does not have this experience but they have to challenge PK players.
So my suggestion is very wide.
Do something with this, maybe raise the ability of some small guns, maybe set LSW common for SG and BG class, or do something else, that will prevent disapointing of impossibility of choice of PvP ready gun if you are SG and you have not pure snipe build.
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bg noobs are supposed to lvl up with cheapass flamer, man
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You can make a pretty decent unarmed/thrower with a crit build, gives you the unarmed pvp grinding and the insane grenade damage later. Hell you can even eye shot people for fun with throwing knives. I'd suggest taking one hander for the 20% to aim for throwing, seriously cuts down on how many points you need to hit max range.
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You can make a pretty decent unarmed/thrower with a crit build, gives you the unarmed pvp grinding and the insane grenade damage later. Hell you can even eye shot people for fun with throwing knives. I'd suggest taking one hander for the 20% to aim for throwing, seriously cuts down on how many points you need to hit max range.
Problem is that newbies are forced to making alts, because there is not any alternative to small gun critical weapon. Their builds are not constucted for it. I remember, when devs little nerf 5mm ammo, but they forgot that this kind of ammo is used in Assault rifle too. But they dont care of this.
GIVE SG one burst weapon that can be effectively used in PvP in some way. Thank you (p90 cant because 25 hex long range in comparsion to lsw and only 2 bursts are ridiculous).
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^ or maybe small guns shold stay as a 'sniper' weapon? and burst ability of some small guns is nice add.
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NOBODY from SG newbies created their char with 10 pe and at least 6 luck.[/
i thought it was 10 luck and 8 PE for snipers?
-Ulrek-
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lol sorry but you suck once again, lsw for both classes wtf? :D and anyway miniguns are better in bursting then small gun weapons. And yes in single player game, you could own bots pretty much with all weapons or without them, but its not single player game, and all weapons dont need to be equal. And as it was said before, big gunners dont exp with lsws neither so they dont defend from pk with them as well ^^
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Problem is that newbies are forced to making alts, because there is not any alternative to small gun critical weapon. Their builds are not constucted for it. I remember, when devs little nerf 5mm ammo, but they forgot that this kind of ammo is used in Assault rifle too. But they dont care of this.
GIVE SG one burst weapon that can be effectively used in PvP in some way. Thank you (p90 cant because 25 hex long range in comparsion to lsw and only 2 bursts are ridiculous).
my build has 4 bursts and a reload.
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lol sorry but you suck once again, lsw for both classes wtf? :D and anyway miniguns are better in bursting then small gun weapons. And yes in single player game, you could own bots pretty much with all weapons or without them, but its not single player game, and all weapons dont need to be equal. And as it was said before, big gunners dont exp with lsws neither so they dont defend from pk with them as well ^^
Well somebody who never fought in PvP battles arrived again. I have at least experience, so i can make suggestions. I created many Builds, maybe the best SG sniper build ever (often copy or modified for players personal purpose in VSB and friendly gangs) so i have VERY VERY good overview about PvP, at least thousands of time bigger than you, because your vulture PvP style sucks. At least your genius doctor/fa nerf was fortunately canceled :P
I will try to repeat for less educated people major facts again.
I wrote, that nobody from newbies SG created their char with 10 PE or 10 LC to rule the sniper riffle. Most of their PE was cca 6-7, lc was maximaly 6, average was less. We had cca 30+ aplications to VSB since 3rd era. (because we have new forum, i dont have info about 1st and second era). So this is very good statistic sample.
If they dont alting, they finished their chars without any possibility how to challenge other people, because SG burst does less damage practicaly on the same lenght like big guns. So one of possibilites, is to create SG long bareled weapons burst damage bigger on the longer distance (30-40 hex), bigger than BG burst on this distances, but of course smaller than BG burst on 1-30 hex. It is not too much, but it can help SG players. LSW is only one possibility from many, so Vedaras, dont know if you are already at university, if you cant read text.
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i will repeat once again. Small guns has never been and will never been as good as big guns in bursting do you lack your brains to not understand that? All your suggestions and everything is to increase sg to an unbelievable amounts, teach those newbies how to play instead of making newbie suggestions.
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i will repeat once again. Small guns has never been and will never been as good as big guns in bursting do you lack your brains to not understand that? All your suggestions and everything is to increase sg to an unbelievable amounts, teach those newbies how to play instead of making newbie suggestions.
1) But this conception is nonsense. I accept this in games, where you start with small guns, like pistols, than you find another kind of weapons, better and bigger (shotguns, double barreled shotguns, minigun, than rocket launcher, plasma rifle and at the end Big Fucking Gun). But this Weapon conception is from year 1993 - Doom and Doom II. So if there will exist only one (or 2) weapons skill (fireamrs and energetic weapons), i can accept it, because i will have chance to take bigger gun, when i reach high level.
New games modifies this, because they re giving purpose for guns. Gun with better damage cant burst (Counter strike Magnum sniper rifle), fast bursting have not enough distance, ....
There is created very good, in my point of view, best model of balancing.. Team Fortress 2. The guns and playstyles are not separated only because it has, but because they are giving great opportunity of many tactic situations.
I dont want to create SUPER, TURBO HYPER SMALL GUN, i want to add more variety to existing PvP builds by little raising one of SG bursting guns ability.
I have direct question to developers: Are you considering that you will add playstyle role to weapons like Assault rifle, FN FAL or XL70E3?? Because now, if you dont choose sniper build, there is dead end in the SG player character progress. I never played WoW or something like this, but i dont think that there can exist something like this.
My suggestion is to create/modify As.rifle of gun, where you will have to chose single aimed or burst shot, both will be generally worst than BG burst or SNIPER critic shot, but this possibility of changing playstyle will be great benefit in the game.
2) If you will finish your school lesson of reading, you will find in text above, that we always tell to our new members to erase their existing char and create "family of chars" if they want to exist in Fonline world, because it is essential.
3) Vedaras, if you want to tell that post of anybody sucks, you dont have to do it. Everybody knows, that only your ideas are great and ideas of others sucks. You can save your bitrate from Moldavia or the country where you are for more needed people.
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if you dont like conception of this game so then just stop playing. And it absolutely makes sense that miniguns designed to torn toughest armors and vehicles do more bursting damage then light infantry weapons. Well and if your guys made builds that suck then they will suck whats the problem? I cant take 10 IN 10 CH and then say that i cant do anything with my build on lvl 21 in pvp and make suggestions because of that. And as you see from votes already in, most players play small guns, dont try to make the most powerful fighting skill even more powered because your faction receives many retarded noobs applications. And as i see you keep tossing insults at me so i will try to make it clear. I dont give a shit who you are etc. and i just only tell my opinion and i have a right to do that. And if your suggestions receives only "you suck" opinions, then maybe your suggestions arent as good as you think for yourself.
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You mean make SG-burster > BG-burster on long distance? So it'll be long range bursters. And of couse it's easy to explain, try to burst in Countersrtike with minigun and with commando (or whatever is it, I'm not CS-player), of couse scoped assault rifle more accurate, and you can do kinda aimed burst shots.
So if you give assault rifles less or even no bullet spread with range, it'll be what you want. At least to XL70E3, because it's scoped and has "Accurate" perk. But don't forget about FN-FAL, yes, it doesn't have scope, but.. who cares? Let assault rifle be like now, but make it powerful at pointblank, so it'll be kinda light BG, make it weakers than minigun, but stronger than 10mm SMG, because now assault rifle totally useless, and I can't understand why 10mm SMG is better than AK at point blank.
So, as I know FN-FAL don't have any weapon perk, add "Accurate" to it.
Then every SG that has "Accurate" weapon perk (or may be create special perk for this) will have no bullet spread with range, so Pancor Jackhammers, FN-FALs, XL70E3s, Combat Shotguns, CAWS, etc. will be better and more useful.
Any minigun/LSW must be > SG-bursting-rifles at close range, but any SG-bursting-rifles must be = or > BG at long range.
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if you dont like conception of this game so then just stop playing. And it absolutely makes sense that miniguns designed to torn toughest armors and vehicles do more bursting damage then light infantry weapons. Well and if your guys made builds that suck then they will suck whats the problem? I cant take 10 IN 10 CH and then say that i cant do anything with my build on lvl 21 in pvp and make suggestions because of that. And as you see from votes already in, most players play small guns, dont try to make the most powerful fighting skill even more powered because your faction receives many retarded noobs applications. And as i see you keep tossing insults at me so i will try to make it clear. I dont give a shit who you are etc. and i just only tell my opinion and i have a right to do that. And if your suggestions receives only "you suck" opinions, then maybe your suggestions arent as good as you think for yourself.
1) This is OPEN beta test. You are the master of number of suggestions, if i will use same logic as you used, you are unsatisfied with the game, so you post suggestions, so my recomendation is same like yours, leave this game. This is absurd, is not it?
2) Do you know what is dogma? In medieval age, the catholic church did not wanted people washing, so people did not washed their bodies for centuries.
3) Developers dont want alting. = Fact,
They created many measures agains alting = Fact
They set proffestions, that you dont need alt to create your basic stuff = Fact
They did not balanced most powerfull weapons (except sniper riffle) of SG class, so major way of SG build tree progress is useless in PvP = Fact
Player vs. player interaction is major magnet of Fonline project = Fact
Most entertaining part of the PvP interaction, is PvP combat = (i hope) Fact
If players want to enjoy the most entertaining part of Fonline, they have to alting and powerbuilding = Fact
The previous fact denies the first one = Fact
4) How many aplication recieved your faction, Vedaras?
5) It is natural, that newbies will have wrong set up SPECIAL and SKILLS, but all aplicants were players of Fallout 1 or 2, big majority of Fallout Tactics, and majority at least tested Fallout 3. (this question is also part of our aplication form). Most of them finished Fallout 1/2 by multiple times (10x,30x .. not unusual numbers). So they are not retards, they are not idiots, THEY ONLY EXPECT, THAT IF THEY CHOOSE THEIR FAVOURITE PLAY STYLE THEY WILL BE ABLE TO CHALLENGE ENEMY PLAYERS, because they expected this is multiplayer one game. But the progress tree of SG players is cutted under the level of criticals weapons (Sniper r. and Laser rifle) and BG bursting weapons.
6) I recieved you suck only from you, and i have to remind you, that you are the one who starts the debate with vulgar worlds and insulting. So maybe, if you will avoid this behaviour, others will start to like you.
P.S.: Black marked text is only for Vedaras, the King.
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rocket launcher has its use, minigun, lsw, even flamer is useful.
but in SG only sniper is good to be against big gunners (cause of it's long distance, duh).
i believe its realistic, think about it, minigun bursts 40 bullets? assault rifle how much? much less for sure, so damage difference should be big. :) the only thing in BG i very much hate, is that they're very accurate in big distances, only gun that should be accurate in longest distances is LSW, minigun cause of big burst shouldnt be good (ex. about 10 bullets hit only in huge distance, if near, then 60-80% chance that all 40 bullets hit on target), rocket launcher, about 70% hit chance from longest distance, cause it has no navigation systems, does it?
P.S. my first sentences were about Damage, the other part is about Accuracy
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I think fonline should take a page from other mmos and have a tree for each weapon class and would add bonuses you could get to make all the weapon classes viable endgame. Like split bg into miniguns/rockets/flamers and have specific perks for each kind and do the same for sg rifles/pistols/smgs and energy laser/plasma. Things that fill out the weakpoints of different weapons like adding range/girth to flamer shots or allow pistols to duel wield giving 2 bullets at 2 different targets for each shot. This way weapon choice will be decided by personal preference and play style vs basic math style we have now, people will always go with the obviously higher damage and range.
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I agree with that Small Guns are a bit "worthless" in endgame pvp, mostly just sniper rifle builds....
But as everytime, balance is the key. ;) Making one class better then any other is not good.. It's really not that easy and I have no better suggestion in making things better, though.
And to vedaras and Lordus, please stop your small scale "war", or settle it down via PM.
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I agree with that Small Guns are a bit "worthless" in endgame pvp, mostly just sniper rifle builds....
But as everytime, balance is the key. ;) Making one class better then any other is not good.. It's really not that easy and I have no better suggestion in making things better, though.
And to vedaras and Lordus, please stop your small scale "war", or settle it down via PM.
why then most people play sg? Because its cheapest way to reach greatest effectiveness, and its like that already and you are talking about improving sg? Get serious people...
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i think most people who voted and said they played small gunners, snipers or bursters etc.
did so due to the simple fact, that unless you want to fight people all the time, being a big gunner is costly, and some what boring unless you like gathering stuff to make your bullets yourself, unless you're in a gang, at which point you can feel free to powerbuild at the cost of crafting skills.
i personally play a.
5 STR
8 PER
4 END
4 CHA
6 INT
7 AGL
6 LUCK
crafter/sniperish type character, and he works pretty well.
And to vedaras and Lordus, please stop your small scale "war", or settle it down via PM.
" +1!! "
-Ulrek-
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i think most people who voted and said they played small gunners, snipers or bursters etc.
did so due to the simple fact, that unless you want to fight people all the time, being a big gunner is costly, and some what boring unless you like gathering stuff to make your bullets yourself, unless you're in a gang, at which point you can feel free to powerbuild at the cost of crafting skills.
i personally play a.
5 STR
8 PER
4 END
4 CHA
6 INT
7 AGL
6 LUCK
crafter/sniperish type character, and he works pretty well.
" +1!! "
-Ulrek-
7 agility? 4 charisma? just 4 endurance?
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Personnaly i prefer smallguns beacause you have the choice to burst or single, and this let you play against bots or players, but in fact it's not that true cause burst with SMG are pretty crap actually except for 10mm SMG and maybe a P90c but not really sure.
Assault riffle are craps cause they are not really efficient and they require 5AP in single 6 in Burst, same for FNFal except the HFPA version who is a bit better but are ridiculously restrictive (FN Fal normal too is restrictive).
Finally Pancore and Caws have too little range, 14 and 16 ... Forget it against BG and forget it against snipers, for a result that may vary (greatly) if you are able to shoot with. 16 for Caws and 20 for Pancore would be allready more reasonnable, but i don't know if a burst of pancore at 20 distance would be dangerous anyway.
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Personnaly i prefer smallguns beacause you have the choice to burst or single, and this let you play against bots or players, but in fact it's not that true cause burst with SMG are pretty crap actually except for 10mm SMG and maybe a P90c but not really sure.
Assault riffle are craps cause they are not really efficient and they require 5AP in single 6 in Burst, same for FNFal except the HFPA version who is a bit better but are ridiculously restrictive (FN Fal normal too is restrictive).
Finally Pancore and Caws have too little range, 14 and 16 ... Forget it against BG and forget it against snipers, for a result that may vary (greatly) if you are able to shoot with. 16 for Caws and 20 for Pancore would be allready more reasonnable, but i don't know if a burst of pancore at 20 distance would be dangerous anyway.
you forgot one thing. Demo expert (using plasma nades) fires 300 caps with each hit. Big gunner with rocket launcher fires like 350-500 with each hit. Big gunner with minigun is a thing only rich people can afford ( im not talking about only using it in pvp, about lvling up etc). Energy expert fires bullets that are hard to craft, and about double as valuable as sg bullets (and in same times their ammo are resisted by armors very will, while sg bullets are not). And so SG fires like 9-16 caps with each shot, and something like 50-100 caps with each burst. So common, dont be so selfish and dont expect others to overpower sg more then it is now.
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"SG fires like 9-16 caps" yeah sure look FN Fal and tell me 7.62 are easy and cheap ammos.
Actually P90c is a good (in stats) SMG (maybe the best) and it's not that good compared to the other weapons, it's main force is the cost really low of it's ammos. Now it's not the case for 75% of SG sorry.
And you say efficiency/cost is not imbalanced for assault riffle is good compared to BG, and compared to snipers? with 1 single .223 they do same domm than burst of LWS (and insta kill and cripples and all you want) so maybe speaking of lack of use of 95% of SMG is not a selfish issue but a real one.
And to have FN Fal HFPA who fire 10 rounds/burst where supposed to fire 20, you have to be raider which is i think really high cost. And you have to be raider once to learn the job for every tiers 3 SG (P90c or Pancore) and that's not simplier than lv with BG, it's even harder in fact.
So i don't think it's selfish, personally i don't care even if FN Fal become a power weapon i'll stick to P90c which is already a good weapon, so no point, only make the game not only playable as only one way like so many are expecting.
I don't know how hard it is to get microfusion, surely it's hard, cause only the strongest weapons need it, butwe are not talking about that right know, here what you want is "you play SG, you have to make a sniper build with finest and that's all" how fun ... I even wonder why letting people manage their build at this point, make some archetypes and it's ok everyone play with same weapon and same stats, no more troubles, no surprise and basically no gameplay :/
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"SG fires like 9-16 caps" yeah sure look FN Fal and tell me 7.62 are easy and cheap ammos.
who uses fn fal anyway? And by the way having ammo for m60 is much more harder so still crying for sg is not an option in here :>
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who uses fn fal anyway? And by the way having ammo for m60 is much more harder so still crying for sg is not an option in here :>
Yeah and it's exaclty the topic SMGs are useless, thanks to approve Verdaras. I wonder what happn if they change plasma grenades, make them cost 1cap and do 20 domm only, the domm/cost ratio would be great, but i'm pretty sure you'll be here to say this suck and is useless.
So what's the point to make useless features, again?
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Yeah and it's exaclty the topic SMGs are useless, thanks to approve Verdaras. I wonder what happn if they change plasma grenades, make them cost 1cap and do 20 domm only, the domm/cost ratio would be great, but i'm pretty sure you'll be here to say this suck and is useless.
So what's the point to make useless features, again?
well if frags would cost 1 ap, they would be the most powerful weapon in whole game ^^
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That's just what i was poiting.
You have assault rifle, bad weapons, worst than 10mm smg for much more cost, maybe there should be a fix here.
Second if you check FN Fal ok it a little better than Assault rifle, but for a silly cost and greatly inferior to P90c (more AP to shoot, same dom in single but less in burst)
And you have finally the FN Fal HFPA supposed to be the best SG possible to craft in the game, and it's a little better than P90 in single and a bit weaker in burst, for a cost really high.
I know nobody use FN Fal HFPA but this weapon should be a Light LSW or something like this regarding all required to use, and it's not the case so it's useless.
Seriously Small Gun interresting can be listed fast.
BB gun for militia kill
Deagle and 10mm SMG cause they are cheap and average weapons
Needler was interresting cause of low ammo cost and fair doms (no more the case)
P90c cause it cost few AP and ammos are cheap
All .223 guns for sniping
All shootguns are useless, all burst rifles (tommy gun, XL70E3, Assault rifle, FN Fal, FN Fal HFPA), grease gun, magnum, 14mm, mauser. And i don't take pipe rifle and so in count.
Must admit it's a few useless guns :D
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you forgot one thing. Demo expert (using plasma nades) fires 300 caps with each hit. Big gunner with rocket launcher fires like 350-500 with each hit. Big gunner with minigun is a thing only rich people can afford ( im not talking about only using it in pvp, about lvling up etc). Energy expert fires bullets that are hard to craft, and about double as valuable as sg bullets (and in same times their ammo are resisted by armors very will, while sg bullets are not). And so SG fires like 9-16 caps with each shot, and something like 50-100 caps with each burst. So common, dont be so selfish and dont expect others to overpower sg more then it is now.
I dont want to be offensive, but it looks that you dont get the point. Your equation is right, but because you were not continuously PvP, you have forget to put it into bigger equation.
You put a question: How expensive is to fire one shot or burst in each combat class?
BG (avenger) burst cost = 40 * 15 = 600 caps
SG (As.rifle) burst cost = 8 * 15 = 120 caps
Better question is: How expensive is to fire one shot or burst in each combat class, if you want to make same damage?
BG vs SG (as. rifle) full ap bursts costs
BG needs 3*40 ammo * price = 120 * 15 = 1500 caps,
SG needs = 3 x 8 * price = 360 caps.
BUT:
One Avenger burst =cca 105 DMG (agaisnt classic power build with metal MK2)
One AS.R. burst = cca 29 DMG (-II-).
So if SG burster wants to do same damage like Avenger guy, he needs to fire 3,5 x more than avenger.
So price for 105 damage is 600 caps / BG avenger
and 420/SG as.r.. So prices are very similar. So your argument is wrong. (EDITED, i mate math mistake)
BUT: You dont have only ammo for one burst, you have more ammo, that you can lost. You have also gun, armor, drugs. You invest your real time to find and craft it.
So the right question is: How much effort have i to make, if i want to be succesful in PvP (or PvE)?
Every PvP player needs equipment. Armor, weapon, ammo, stimps and drugs. Everybody knows, that if you want to play BG avenger in PvP, your costs are greater than SG AS burst. But each class needs armor, so this price is same for everyone. Other equipment is more expensive for BG. Ok, how much? 3x? 4x? 5x? Lets say 5x /price not only in caps, but in time you need to spend = real costs.
So if BG stuff is 5x expensive in PvP than SGs A.R. stuff ( 5:1), do bigguners have 5x bigger chance to win the combat against SG AS.Rifles? NO, they dont. Chance of SG assault riffle win against biggunner is equal to ZERO. (1:50). Just look at their bursts damage and their weapons range. Only very experienced SG burster can kill average BG burster. But if their players skills are equal, BG has bigger chances.
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That's just what i was poiting.
You have assault rifle, bad weapons, worst than 10mm smg for much more cost, maybe there should be a fix here.
Second if you check FN Fal ok it a little better than Assault rifle, but for a silly cost and greatly inferior to P90c (more AP to shoot, same dom in single but less in burst)
And you have finally the FN Fal HFPA supposed to be the best SG possible to craft in the game, and it's a little better than P90 in single and a bit weaker in burst, for a cost really high.
I know nobody use FN Fal HFPA but this weapon should be a Light LSW or something like this regarding all required to use, and it's not the case so it's useless.
Seriously Small Gun interresting can be listed fast.
BB gun for militia kill
Deagle and 10mm SMG cause they are cheap and average weapons
Needler was interresting cause of low ammo cost and fair doms (no more the case)
P90c cause it cost few AP and ammos are cheap
All .223 guns for sniping
All shootguns are useless, all burst rifles (tommy gun, XL70E3, Assault rifle, FN Fal, FN Fal HFPA), grease gun, magnum, 14mm, mauser. And i don't take pipe rifle and so in count.
Must admit it's a few useless guns :D
you forget one thing, and the main thing is that you cant make all small guns good in fights. Flamer is shitty weapon in real time versus player fight too, but i dont see anyone whining to make it range 50 or anything. Avenger cost a little over 10k caps, p90 cost 6300, 10mm smg is worthless at all, pretty much same as assault rifles and fn fals compared to expensive big guns. So i still dont get it, why you want cheap shitty guns to be as effective as expensive themselves big guns and which are also much more expensive in using (by ammo consuming)?
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It would be alot of fun for the classes to all be somewhat equal in the end stages and i dont really see a problem with it.Cost is only an issue if prices were set in stone and its not.Nothing is set in stone during a beta so raising sm gun prices to match the effectiveness in combat seems like a fair trade to me.If it brings more diversity to game then im all for it.
Maybe you should try to be a little more open minded vederas because afterall you seem to find alot of little things you want implemented.I see your suggestions all over this forum but almost never see anything positive come from you on anyone elses.
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Maybe you should try to be a little more open minded vederas because afterall you seem to find alot of little things you want implemented.I see your suggestions all over this forum but almost never see anything positive come from you on anyone elses.
the thing is that most suggestions made by players are made not to improve the game itself, but to improve themselves (players and their strength). This suggestion is no exception.
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Im not really sure what the authors intent was vederas but its gone beyond his first post now and balancing the different classes and weapons has always been a very hot topic around fonline.
I dont remember the name of the topic you wrote a couple weeks ago but it was something about you wanting awareness in relation to your mercs without having to take the perk.If that wasnt a post made for your own benefit then id say your a liar AND a hypocrit.
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I dont remember the name of the topic you wrote a couple weeks ago but it was something about you wanting awareness in relation to your mercs without having to take the perk.If that wasnt a post made for your own benefit then id say your a liar AND a hypocrit.
You see thing is, that in f2 everyone could see your mercs stats, in here noone can. Suggestion is for >everyone< to be able to see stats and i can repeat once again, it would benefit EVERYONE. And what now? Will weapons be balanced overall or something? Hell no, not even close, and not even closer than before. It would just benefit these noobs who sent applications to Lordus as he mentioned. Feel the difference?
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You see thing is, that in f2 everyone could see your mercs stats,
Are you sure about that? I'm not sure, I didn't play FO2 for many months, but I doubt one could see their stats without awareness and without speaking directly to them.
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Are you sure about that? I'm not sure, I didn't play FO2 for many months, but I doubt one could see their stats without awareness and without speaking directly to them.
is speaking with them a problem ? :> and anyway thats not even the point of what we've been discussing :>
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You say all guns don't have to be usefull, but hell, in SG 90% are useless.
9mm, 10mm, sawed shootgun and normal shotgun should stay poor weapon to start and have your first hand on. I don't even speak of zip gun and pipe rifle that are useless even to start and against rats.
You speak about flamer, yeah but flamer are required for BG to lv, i saw many guys with it, cause it's range is low, but dom are insane and against all cac bots it's really good to lv, like the 10mm pistol, so no point here.
Then you should have upgraded weapon, a bit more usefull than the first ones, deagle, magnum, grease and tommy gun and maybe combat shootgun.
But here we have already some issues, tommy gun is really crap. While grease gun is not so bad, high dommages but low range, he could be used as a shootgun, tommy gun is completly useless, if you want to snipe, you use a hunting rifle and his burst is inferior to grease or 10SMG, not to mention than bursting at 32 distance is useless.
After that we have the main issue for tier 2 with AR and FN Fal, where normaly you should have a bit better weapon than on tier 1, you have expensive and useless things.
I think 10mm SMG is not at his place here, since it's supposed to be the really first SMG to use, but in fact, it's stronger than AR in burst ... maybe putting it at 4PAs was not that great, don't know ...
Caws should be here and for AR, he s not good compared to 10smg, 1 more AP and ammos are worse (10% dr more on 5mm) maybe make it burst 10 bullet and wide a bit the magazine to make it interresting, same for the ext mag versions.
FN Fal is the first rifle of the liste interresting, it has good stats, good ammos, but impossible to get, almost. Maybe keeping this way is a good thing, but actually 7.62 are really too rare to be interresting, you don't want to get thoses high end bullet for midle game rifle :/ So this weapon become of some use only to craft the HFPA (which is tier 3 and not avaible for the most of players)
On guns, now 14mm and needler are clones, only difference is magazine size :/ Before 14mm was too expensive for what it does compared to needler, but now they are the 2 same guns, adding poison to needler would be fun for exemple, and give the penetrate perk to 14mm instead. (I will not speak of needler ammo change here :p)
Finally tier 3 have the champion P90c, great range not much ap, burst mode, cheap ammos, decent domm. Pancore that leak range, in Fo2 pancore had 35 rang in single, 25 in burst, it was clearly a bit too much (30/20 for caws and 22/18 for combat) maybe put something between, 25/16 could be a good deal, leting users shoot at correct range in single, low range in burst.
XL70E3 is supposed to be "upgrade" to AR and he have exactly the same weakness, doing less dom than the basic FN Fal :/ Someone proposed to make it indestructible, it could be a good idea, make him deteriorate really slower than other guns, but not sure it'll change anything to effectivness. So maybe simply do the same things than for AR, put the burst to 10 bullet and eventually wider the magazine. One thing is fun with this one, you burst by 8 and have a magazine of 20.
Maybe i forget things, i have tryed to be as clear as possible and give some ideas.
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you forget one thing, and the main thing is that you cant make all small guns good in fights. Flamer is shitty weapon in real time versus player fight too, but i dont see anyone whining to make it range 50 or anything. Avenger cost a little over 10k caps, p90 cost 6300, 10mm smg is worthless at all, pretty much same as assault rifles and fn fals compared to expensive big guns. So i still dont get it, why you want cheap shitty guns to be as effective as expensive themselves big guns and which are also much more expensive in using (by ammo consuming)?
Check the average price price of BG warrior stuf and SG burster stuff.. Nobody wants equal chances to win the fight, i want the same ratio of win/lose like is ratio of stuff prices in BG/SG...