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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Avoral on January 03, 2010, 09:21:06 pm
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I would like to dig out a slavery topic from NMA froum. (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52274&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=slave&start=0)
That topic got the most of interesting ideas for this "proffesion" imo.
It would be nice to be able to enslave some others people than written. I mean, why it's imposible to enslave a rider? Why he got protection if he lay on the ground and he is unable to defend himself?
Second thing, why don't be able to enslave a creature? I know that some people dont like idea of seeing dude with 4x deathclaws but imo this idea got some potencial, and u must admit that most of creatures are "weak" on some lvl. You can tame brahim, why not scorpion?
Next idea from NMA topic is use speech skill to slave people, eg if u got 30% than its almost imposible to enslave Rider, but it's possibile to enslave a Homeless. More powerfull slave/creature would need bigger skill.
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I would like to dig out a slavery topic from NMA froum. (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52274&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=slave&start=0)
1 - That topic got the most of interesting ideas for this "proffesion" imo.
It would be nice to be able to enslave some others people than written. I mean, why it's imposible to enslave a rider? Why he got protection if he lay on the ground and he is unable to defend himself?
2- Second thing, why don't be able to enslave a creature? I know that some people dont like idea of seeing dude with 4x deathclaws but imo this idea got some potencial, and u must admit that most of creatures are "weak" on some lvl. You can tame brahim, why not scorpion?
3- Next idea from NMA topic is use speech skill to slave people, eg if u got 30% than its almost imposible to enslave Rider, but it's possibile to enslave a Homeless. More powerfull slave/creature would need bigger skill.
1- Agree. There should be a possibility to enslave every generic npc human (or ghoul and maybe even super muties)
However all kinds of "bandits" and "military people" should quite restless in some kind (running away, attackin you/your companions/other slaves etc or in other way)
2- I've already posted this suggestion somwhere in NMA Forums (I'm also Wallace there) but i suggested adding a Trapper/Beastlord profession to do that
3- speech may be used to help maintaining "morale" of your human(and once human) slaves but in case of creatures i don't think they would giva a damn about how eloquent you are... ;)
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At no point in history has anyone been enslaved by talking. It should be based on how notorious you are in the wasteland, like the more hated in modoc the easier it is to enslave farmers around the area. Other than that I like your suggestions.
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I like keeping the speech limitations in. Even with animals. It finally gives the skill a decent purpose - charisma is the hard limit to how many followers you can have, while speech determines how good you are at getting those followers. Without sufficient speech you can't break the spirit of your slaves, you can't force them to 'give up' psychologically and accept their fate.
I'd like also like to see randomly spawning 'traveller' NPCs in bars. Who will then follow the player for free, but lack the 'wait here' functionality to stop people using them as free base guards. I want to see more people running around with NPCs.
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I like keeping the speech limitations in. Even with animals. It finally gives the skill a decent purpose - charisma is the hard limit to how many followers you can have, while speech determines how good you are at getting those followers. Without sufficient speech you can't break the spirit of your slaves, you can't force them to 'give up' psychologically and accept their fate.
Using speech skill with creatures makes no sense... =/
I'd rather see it more like it being dependant of your strenght (critters will more likely acknowledge you as their master because they're afraid of you) or perception (you can see the needs and emotional states of your fellow animal companions for better understanding of their needs) right now using charisma to limit your number of cows you may have with you also makes logical sense (outdoorsman seems to be important statistic this case as for now i see no more logical solution - however i'm suggesting a profession of trapper/beastlord considering amount and "level" of critters you may tame and travel with [exact number of crits would be profession level + 1])
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Speech description:
"The ability to communicate in a practicial and efficient manner. The skill of convincing others that your position is correct[...]"
That doesn't say that you need a words to communicate - eg when you want to teach a dog "sit" u are comunicating with him and it isnt anything strange or is it?[sit and u will recive something tasty].
If there would be a new profesion, on what skill would it based? Outdorsman? No offense but it would be easy obtained by all "leaders". This is why i think about speech becouse it mean that "pupetmaster" would need a decent skill and it would be something that wount overpower normal gamming.
And about enslaving by talking.... humm.... there is so called brain-wash, also some time ago there were many so called "double-agents"/dictators/politics - they all were forcing or forced to cooperate by power of "talking". It got much more of the dark side that it seems
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I say definitely keep it with speech. While it may not make perfect sense when it comes to animals, it's still logical enough to keep it there. And as Avoral said, for game balance. If someone wants to be the master of NPCs he has to invest in a skill he wouldn't normally take. If we made human NPCs speech and critter NPCs outdoorsman everyone would just have ten dogs. Instead we're giving speech its first purpose in the game which is a good step forward for game balance.
Now we just need the ability to tell mercs to automatically target areas.
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why we cant prisoned/slavered others weak players or enemies in war ?
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Cause every one will be hunting for newbies, as You are good man it is ok, You will probably help him to start in the end. But if hunter is some "lol omfg u noob i kill u" probably it will destroy any satisfaction newbie can take from game.
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and what..
you can make 50 differences of accounts - this destroying my satisfaction from game.
many noobs using followers options or something else, great material on slave.
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Yep, every new char he made will be catched in first 5 minutes by horde of crazy slavers.
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Yep, every new char he made will be catched in first 5 minutes by horde of crazy slavers.
where the problem, only in situation, if will not be thought over limits
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where the problem, only in situation, if will not be thought over limits
If you know people you should expect that it would be exploited ;)
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Because of the limited amount of skills in FOnline, I'd rather see Speech to be more than just plain diplomacy. What stops anyone [ofc this needs some time from the Dev] of using Speech to intimidation, since you can already lie with Speech? Yeah, Speech only isn't going to be enough, but judging only by player's reputation the slavery isn't going to be so user-friendly as it could be. By this way only the meanest sons of bitches would have the chance of doing so, and this would tie player's hands a bit about his/hers gamestyle. Fallout is a world of choice: choice to do right, choice to do wrong and choice to ignore. In small: slavery should be a combination of both Speech and reputation.
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Second thing, why don't be able to enslave a creature? I know that some people dont like idea of seeing dude with 4x deathclaws but imo this idea got some potencial, and u must admit that most of creatures are "weak" on some lvl. You can tame brahim, why not scorpion?
(http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52274&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=slave&start=0)
very interesting idea !
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Just do a proffesion of slaver. 3 levels. Depends on Speech and Outdoor. It makes you can enslave more NPC kinds (like hostile thugs), but not the strongest ones. It would make people have more fun.
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Just do a proffesion of slaver. 3 levels. Depends on Speech and Outdoor. It makes you can enslave more NPC kinds (like hostile thugs), but not the strongest ones. It would make people have more fun.
As i read here u guys got good ideas so yea why dont make slaver as profession like gunsmith or something? u know like:
lvl 1 pets like dogs
lvl 2 some humans, ghouls
lvl 3 ability to enslave deathclaws and dunno big green uglies or something?
that would open new posibilities in places like NRC or Den thing on the same rules like normal followers standard buy / sell using slaver guild
yee i can see in my imagination gangs of players slavers with cattle prods chaising some innocent creatures on wasteland
btw who dont want deathclaw as guardian in his base? :P
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Most of you are very stubborn with applying speech skill into slavery even though it isn't very logical at all...
So maybe instead of speech only, other skills would be nessecery such as outdoor(finding potential slaves) lockpick/traps(preventing them from running away from their captivity) first aid/doc (keeping them in good health)
Additionally high strenght would be required (ever seen a weak slaver?) to intimidate slaves
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Lockpicking could make handcuffs at high levels for capturing npc's
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I think it's not a problem to tide unconscious man with a rope (outdoorsman skill). But you can't hold this rope all the time you lead him. He has to COOPERATE. All slavery art is about persuade a slave to listen to a slaver. Explain him, why he shouldn't do that. He has no reason to run away, because he will be enslaved again or killed (CHARISMATIC person have more chance then). It's a TALK - speech skill. But you need to look like a person who would seriously punish for thing done wrong - strength.
Without Slaver Profession you can obviously tam a Brahmin.
1st level of Slaver Profession:
Requirements: CH4; ST5; SP 50; OUT: 60
Enslaveable:
- Slaves
- Nomads / Wild men / Fishermen
- Farmers / Homesteaders / Bootleggers
- Holy people
- Scavengers / Ghoul scavengers
2nd level of Slaver Profession:
Requirements: CH6; ST6; SP 80; OUT: 90
Enslaveable:
- Prospectors / V15 Squatters / Trappers
- Raiders / Bandits
- Dogs / Wild cows
3rd (&last) level of Slaver Profession:
Requirements: CH8; ST7; SP 110; OUT: 135
Enslaveable:
- Thugs (Rogues / Gang) / Mobsters / Yakooza
- Merchants / Traders / Caravan (that poor caravan from north)
- Cannibals
- Ghoul crazies
- Wild dogs / Wolves
- Geckos / silver geckos
- and a Thought guard I've met alive in a cave once. Super rare.
Hope I haven't forgot any critter I wanted here. Can be edited if that's not true :) .
And I think it's not overpowered.
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In my opinion - enslaving doesn't require any charisma nor speech at all. You will never convince a slave. You terrorize them into obedience.
Outdoorsman, yes, traps, locks, maybe. Charisma - the lower, the better.
Do I need to remind you that slavers usually captured people from nations whose language they didn't knew? Africans, native americans and so on. The universal argument was a whip, not pretty talking somebody into custody.
In the terms of speech: "do what I tell you or f***ing die!." Does that sounds like speech to you?
Use some logic.
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It's not about the logic. It's about the professions system. You need to pick requirements like in other profession to balance the game. Traps don't convince me at all. And this skill in much cases rises above the PvP. The thing is there is no terrorize skill too. Here goes out unused skill - speech. That's why. Charisma - you need it to lead players and NPCs through the wasteland. So it's naturally attached to the profession.
We don't want to have thousands of slavers and flood of slaves.
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Its better to introduce quests with speech requirement, if you are worried about unused skill.
Charisma - you need it to lead players and NPCs through the wasteland.
You DON'T lead them, you HERD them.
The way you wand it to be, lets get a profession for gathering of each type of resources, and lets add a speech requirement - some tribes used to talk to plants before cutting them.
You said yourself, that logic doesn't concern you...
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The crafting system wouldn't be BALANCED then :P . I consider logic, but balance is really what the on-line game needs.
Okay. Let's make it that way. You need ST8 and big guns 120 outdoor 150 to reach the level 3 of slaver profession. Terrorized and bad treated slaves would make an uprise in your tent by night. Because they don't see sense of living with a big guy with his big gun who even can't talk and look almost like ghoul.
FLAMES!!!
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Frozen Mind
Right now you seem just to write some random stuff only not to tell that Plenty is right
He is imo
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Is there a point talking to you? Tied, chained, roped? Uprise?
Balance has nothing to do with it. If you where such a balance defender, you would ask for correction on other aspects of the game - like realtime combat mode that ignores agility for example. IMO you have made a char with 120 speech and now you're trying to get some use for it.
Quests and convincing people should be bonded, not slavery. That would bring some balance. Convince somebody to teach you a profession, or bribe him high, for example.
I won't answer to your posts anymore - no point. If you don't care about logic, what is the bloody point of discussion with you than?
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No. I don't have character with any skill point added to the speech. I just want to warn all of you about a POWER BUILDS who can be more powered with additional bots controlled in a war? Or make more usage of traps skill to make more bombers builds using a child with bomb? Just screw Frozen the slaver. Think what this changes would bring in the wasteland!
Now there are only two disadvantages:
- charisma needed - it blocks typical power builds from building a army of bots used in PvP (PK highlighted). So that players need to make "alts" what makes they don't fight with slaves power. Otherwise they just can buy a mercenary;
- reputation loose - some factions want to take you down, but it's not much difficult.
In my model it would add a new requirement. But the speech could be really lowed than I wrote it in a first time to make easier to pick a slaver profession without planing.
And like previously... First game balance, then real logic. Don't turn it into flame.
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"First game balance, then real logic."
Then its better to make something totally stupid, unreal and illogical just for sake of balancing the game? Or what?
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You have edited the post. Previously you have been suggesting that speech is naturally attached to convincing slaves into submission, rather than terrorizing them. Totally absurd.
Yes, speech requirement to get a professions is a good idea, also a good way of balancing, but totally different than one suggested by you before.
Having such requirements (high speech to convince slavers leader to honor you with guilds membership), you couldn't create a power build AND be a slaver with army of drones (don't use word "bot" for slaves, thats something quite different).
I'm not starting any flame war, just opposing absurds.
The idea you derived from my suggestion (few posts above) would indeed balance the game, and wouldn't be as awkward as your original. So now I can say I agree - to some point.
Add the requirement for shackles, cages, collars, cuffs etc (you would need lock-picking, some science or simply cash to buy them), outdoorsman skill requirement to herd them safely trough wasteland (failed test - you lost a slave, either he managed to run away, or died)... Than calculate all to make sure, that creation of a playable slave is possible, yet it couldn't be a power build at the same time.
Logic + balance.
Hope you agree.
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Fail test - sounds good.
I think lockpick skill shouldn't be needed to gain a profession only, but to craft slavers item. I think the only item would be handcuff. And it's needed to enslave "harder" NPC such as Rogues. Somehow I don't like the collar idea ;) .
And in that test would calculate with parameters like:
1. Do you have handcuffs?
2. What is your speech skill?
3? Outdoor.?
The test has something random or it's constant (for each type of NPC)?
Edit: I'm still waiting for devs response about system improvements we're discussing here.
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Im curious, why most of pepole here think that speech mean "nice talk and nice talk, and nice talk"? IMO speech is like a knife => 1) you can cut some fibre 1) you can cut someone down :] Look at Deutchland/Italian leaders from years 1936-1939, they could convince people to do what they want, it is just a metter of a brain wash.
BTW did someone of you watch "Gladiator"? There was a gladiator master who wasnt so "mighty", he just have some people who helped him to train gladiators... in our subject slaves.
Additional, 90% of slaves die after reciving direct hit from any of big guns or energy guns [sometimes 2x of sg and he is dead]. In my vision, slavery profesioni is rather a 3th class addon, becosue it takes some time for capturing slave, healing him, find a weapon for him and yet he can die in next fight or dissapear on the map...
And guess what, slaves should be counted as a team members [i mean as a merc's] so there wount be a situation when someone comes to city with 4 merc and 4 slaves [and THAT would be bad if there would come 4x players with such skills].
About reputaztion... there are some places [junktown/NCR] where slavery is forbidden, but there are also a places [VC/Den] where it is normal thing to see a armed dude with some slaves [severants in VC ;p]
Also, im aginst connecting ST with slavery, why? cuz that would mean easy to connect BG with Slavery and TADAM, we got a problem...
I think that this topic will soon die... sad :/
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Considering how weak slaves are having 4 following you just balances out the combat skills that are sacrificed for high cha.
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Is guy with 20%/0 res, 158 hps with Pistol 14mm or .223 weak guy? For advanced PvP yes... But... :)