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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: yoz on May 11, 2010, 12:08:41 pm
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"The FN FAL HPFA variant. This model has been tinkered with to fire an entire magazine on burst. The resulting firepower makes the gun much more dangerous, to both the user and his target."
...yet it takes two bursts to fire the entire magazine.
If the description were true and it fired the entire magazine in one burst, this gun would have added a lot more small gunner built variety to the game.
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"i second the notion!"
-Ulrek-
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agree with author :>
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it's true. it should fire whole magazine
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Well...
Bad side
* It would kinda make the gun overpowered (unless you decrease the damage dealt)
Good Side
* It uses very rare ammo and having such high damage might actually make it more something like small guns ''Minigun'' if you know what I mean.
* It would really be worth SG3 and would become more... popular?
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it can make 7.62 popular and increase demand in ammo terminal - hey hey mariposa becomes a very hot place!
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I doubt that what is suggested here is anything overpowered or imbalanced => +1
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in comparstion to Bg this gun could not be overpowered...
you will burst 20 bullets per one burst.. but minigun will burst 30 and no need to reload. so even this will not help as. rifle class of the weapons. sorry
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Bad side
* It would kinda make the gun overpowered (unless you decrease the damage dealt)
Someone knows shit of this game. :/
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totally do and expand magazine to 25 :>
i'd love to see this weapon as highest tier SG thingie
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totally do and expand magazine to 25 :>
i'd love to see this weapon as highest tier SG thingie
I dont know how you cant realize, that this minor change will be useless.
Kind of bursting killing gun in PvP is LSW, minigun and avenger.. they have effective damage/range bigger than this kind of weapon.
In first era, there were entusiasm about testing new chars and builds, but now it is useless, because everybody knows, that there exist best bursting weapon class (BG) and A.r. cant chalenge them.
Yes, you can admit that this weapon is cheaper, BUT THIS IS NOT TRUE. Game economy = time you must spend online / entertaining efect. I can create this weapon (AR) from less resources, but i will (almost) always die if i chalenge BGunner in the PvP. So if i am not mad, i will not play moving target roleplay and i will have to use another weapons class or build (sniper, BG)
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FN FAL is totally useless against every good armor and this change won't make it any more useful in pvp.
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On the contrary. Many, including me, will find uses for it.
Why does it not fire everything in one burst like the description says to begin with?
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Well...
Bad side
* It would kinda make the gun overpowered (unless you decrease the damage dealt)
Armor eliminates most of the damage..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ALySsPXt0&feature=related
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Kilgore is true imo.
What about adding HK G11 +its ammo into the game? I mean the base one, not upgraded. Would it be too overpowered? I consider this gun much more "highend" SG weapon than FN FAL.
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Kilgore is true imo.
What about adding HK G11 +its ammo into the game? I mean the base one, not upgraded. Would it be too overpowered? I consider this gun much more "highend" SG weapon than FN FAL.
I dont know if this is needed, but i would like to see at least one assault rifle, with better distance than minigun/avenger for burst, with at least 30 ammo magazine and with possibility to make bigger burst damage on 30-45 hex than minigun/lsw/avenger.. It is too much???
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I believe that the problem with FN FAL / M60 lies mainly within statistics of 7.62mm ammo. And I hate it because I consider both of them as cool guns ;]
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I've never taken the time to check this (i don't want to spend the money buying one, and i can't craft it) so sorry if it already is this way, but if we're going with item description then...
http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/XL70E3
"Manufactured, primarily, from high-strength polymers, the weapon is almost indestructible."
Wouldn't this gun have no deterioration ever?
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It's FN Fal HPFA not the normal one, don't think it would be so useless to change. In Fo2 this weapon is quite good against combat armor and lower armored, so don't think it could be that bad with this tweak.
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All the caseless would rape anything not in PA, and even then. Unless they add in higher end armour they should limit the availability of end game guns.
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What do you mean?
FN FAL fires 7.62 ammo.
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What do you mean?
FN FAL fires 7.62 ammo.
Ammunition. Caliber: 7.62mm.
Caliber 7.62mm
AC modifier -5
DR modifier -10
Damage adj 1/1
Weight 22 grams
Base price 16 caps
A case of ammunition, .223 caliber, Full Metal Jacket.
Caliber .223
AC modifier -20
DR modifier -20
Damage adj 1/1
Weight 18 grams
Base price 18 caps
Unfortunaely .223 requires A LOT LESS EFFORD... i mean A LOT. and no strings attached with raiders etc, yet it's still awesomely superior to 7.62 ;]
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Wow! Where did u get this?
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Yeah .223 are a bit strong in fallout and they are not so hight tier ammos in 2238.
The difference will be that you have no SG using burst mod for this type of ammo (but it doesn't need at all you have BG for that and the snipers in SG ...)
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Unfortunaely .223 requires A LOT LESS EFFORD... i mean A LOT. and no strings attached with raiders etc, yet it's still awesomely superior to 7.62 ;]
For now.
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For now.
1 more thing, Sir solar.
here is a metal armor from fallout tactics(which was prepared and more balanced in terms of PvP)
Fallout Tactics armor
Metal Armor
image:FoTMetalArmor.gif image:FOT_Metal.gif
AC bonus: 10
Damage Type Damage Resistance Damage Threshold
normal: 30% 4
fire: 15% 4
gas: 0% 0
explode: 25% 4
energy: 37% 3
electrical: 10% 0
effects: -25% Sneak
weight: 35 pounds
cost: $2500
As you can see it has only 37%/3 laser defence. I think you guys should consider changing armors stats to more FT like, because creators of tactics thought about end game PvP combat. Thats why energy weapon resistance is lower, while in f2 everything above metal screws up energy gunners(I dont feel lucky for armor bypass shot, punk) and Mfc is
A medium sized energy production unit. Self-contained fusion plant.
Caliber Micro Fusion Cells
AC modifier 0
DR modifier 0
Damage adj 1/1
Weight 45 grams
Base price 30 caps
Just, please think about it.
Ps. Plasma rifle attack range is 25, making this gun inferior to laser rifle(especially against CA since reistances are similar). It's a rifle right? Please increase it's range or it still won't be useable... just how we see such situation now. I suggest at least 30-35(it's a rifle, right?)
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And you can find .223 on random encounter, guys with hunting rifles, good luck to find 7.62 on encounters :/
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Make HPFA burst whole magazine (20 rounds) and 7.62 AP ammo.
It woudl be divided by 3, so 6-7 hits in one ranged burst.
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Drakonis +1
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....
Dont forget that EW Laser rifle has 2x bigger damage than SG rifle. Dont make from SG snipers rifles second class snipers...
I admit that EW are weak in PvP, but at least, they are more usable than non sniper small guns.
If you lower the protection of EW in major armors, what will be the difference between SG sniper and EW sniper? please, dont tell me that the PRICE. Because in PvP, there are no poor people, PvP is group of people who have time to craft their favourite weapons.
My suggestion is this. EW snipers should do bigger damages, but in every armor class, there should be 2 equal (by price) armours. One will little more reduce the EW, second will not. So SG snipers (and smallguners at all) will do more constant damage to this armors, but EW will do bigger damage to one kind of armor.
You can admit, that this is current system, but my answer is: look at current pvp, almost nobody use EW snipers, only because they are bad now.
Motto: Benefits from player ingame wealth, plurality of resources, should mean that player has bigger variety of choices, not that he has possibility to get more powerfull gun (in all or major attributes).
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Dont forget that EW Laser rifle has 2x bigger damage than SG rifle. Dont make from SG snipers rifles second class snipers...
I admit that EW are weak in PvP, but at least, they are more usable than non sniper small guns.
If you lower the protection of EW in major armors, what will be the difference between SG sniper and EW sniper? please, dont tell me that the PRICE. Because in PvP, there are no poor people, PvP is group of people who have time to craft their favourite weapons.
My suggestion is this. EW snipers should do bigger damages, but in every armor class, there should be 2 equal (by price) armours. One will little more reduce the EW, second will not. So SG snipers (and smallguners at all) will do more constant damage to this armors, but EW will do bigger damage to one kind of armor.
You can admit, that this is current system, but my answer is: look at current pvp, almost nobody use EW snipers, only because they are bad now.
Motto: Benefits from player ingame wealth, plurality of resources, should mean that player has bigger variety of choices, not that he has possibility to get more powerfull gun (in all or major attributes).
Energy weapon do have bigger damage than Small guns sniper rifle, however if you check ammo properties of .223 so commonly and mosty used you will see that it gives huge adventage over laser and plasma. .223 reduce targets AC and DR by 20. thats like HALF OF THE ARMOR. Suddenly sniper rifle with lower damage hits more than a laser rifle with 25-50. Why? because armors have crazy energy resistance combined with crappy hard to get MFC that do not even lower this resistance. Even if armors would have similar Energy and Normal damage resistance- sniper rifle still hit pretty much the same and will be a LOT MORE ACCURATE(-20 AC, Scoped). Solutions? Make MFC lower energy resistance or simply decrease the crazy resistance of armors to a reasonable level. Sniper rifle will still remain superior at longest range(because AC) while laser rifle will hit a bit more but will most likely require a lot more skill to snipe effectively.
PS. have in mind that energy weapons should be superior to small guns, because of pain in the ass ammo and more skill % required to shot them. Also energy gunners dont have a lvl 1 quest that gives free 15% to small guns etc etc. Oh, and tesla armor, man :D(since its made from metal armor i think it should remain its normal armor properties... just like in FT... damn they had it all covered)
AC bonus: 15
Damage Type Damage Resistance Damage Threshold
normal: 35% 4
fire: 45% 7
gas: 0% 0
explode: 20% 4
energy: 85% 15
electrical: 10% 0
effects: -20% Sneak
weight: 40 pounds
cost: $11000
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"Also energy gunners dont have a lvl 1 quest that gives free 15% to small guns"
If i'm right you need to be equiped with a CA and low SG skill for this quest to triger right? You have seen many guys in CA with less than 45% in SG if they plan a sniper build?
But if it's the issue, yeah put this quest for energie too, it will so usefull ...
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"Also energy gunners dont have a lvl 1 quest that gives free 15% to small guns"
If i'm right you need to be equiped with a CA and low SG skill for this quest to triger right? You have seen many guys in CA with less than 45% in SG if they plan a sniper build?
But if it's the issue, yeah put this quest for energie too, it will so usefull ...
er no. you just go there with low Small guns (45 ish untagged, more tagged) and you get free 15%.
But I find it hilarious that you thought you need a CA to trigger that quest xD I mean come on man...
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PS. have in mind that energy weapons should be superior to small guns, because of pain in the ass ammo and more skill % required to shot them. Also energy gunners dont have a lvl 1 quest that gives free 15% to small guns etc etc. Oh, and tesla armor, man :D
This is the different point of veiw. If EW will be superior to SG, in pvp there will be no SG sniper.. it is fact. Only best PvP chars are in PvP. If you lower this resistance, BG will protest, because they will not be so strong like now, and because nobody wants to nerf anything, they will raise BG power.
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Anyway 45% is what i started with and i have the trait good natured that lower it ... And i don't really think it should be considered as an advantage for most of people.
And the original post was about FN Fal not energie weapon :/
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This is the different point of veiw. If EW will be superior to SG, in pvp there will be no SG sniper.. it is fact. Only best PvP chars are in PvP. If you lower this resistance, BG will protest, because they will not be so strong like now, and because nobody wants to nerf anything, they will raise BG power.
ugh should players really care about whining Bigguners when they loose some of their ultimate supremacy?
And yes I actually i know what im talking about. 2 BIgguners lvl 21 now, 2 SG snipers(6 and 10 luck) and 1 energy sniper. I can easly tell that if you can afford your ammo(just ammo coz lsw is a caravan drop) then you have an utimate hitting power over long range, shitload of AP, AOE attack, Partialy resistant to blind/psycho effects(bigguns does not require that much % to max chance to hit, unlike other guns)
Right now we have a reverse situation. everybody uses Small guns because they are better than energy guns. If energy guns would be a BIT better than small guns(especially on medium distance), then some people would still use SG and some would use EW: why? EW are hard to get/hard to craft and ammo is shitty expensive. Well we at least would have SOME diversity :(. I know devs wanted to make EW rare, but this should not be achieved by making them worse in PVP in a PVP based game. Making them expensive with hard to get ammo?: YES. Making them shit: OH GOD NO
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This is truly a question and not in any way an attempt to prove anyone wrong.
I see alot of people talking about how well armors protect from laser and plasma damage, which it does very well, but whenever i encounter an energy weapon im shot in the head or the eyes.These hits usually result in loads of damage and i dont survive many of them.Since its pretty much like you guys say and everyone is going to do whatever is most effective in a fight i ask why everyone is so concerned about how resistant armor is to lasers when everyone is eye shooting anyway?Do the visors on CA actually offer the same protection for the head and eyes as the rest does for the torso and limbs?
Like i said, not an attempt to derail anyone, im just curious.
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This is truly a question and not in any way an attempt to prove anyone wrong.
I see alot of people talking about how well armors protect from laser and plasma damage, which it does very well, but whenever i encounter an energy weapon im shot in the head or the eyes.These hits usually result in loads of damage and i dont survive many of them.Since its pretty much like you guys say and everyone is going to do whatever is most effective in a fight i ask why everyone is so concerned about how resistant armor is to lasers when everyone is eye shooting anyway?Do the visors on CA actually offer the same protection for the head and eyes as the rest does for the torso and limbs?
Like i said, not an attempt to derail anyone, im just curious.
Because EW user have a chance only if he gets lucky enough to both crit AND armor bypass. Not all shots become critical, and not many bypass armor at all ;] All shots vs metal armor and up are lame. You might have been runing around in leather or something since it doesnt protect against lasers or plasma.
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Im aware of how well these armore protect Drakonis but im asking if they also protect the eyes and head.No one ever has any metal helmets on their heads and Ca has a visor but i wonder if it even works.
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Laser rifles are generally 10 worse vs Metal armours (25 worse vs Tesla), ~30 better vs Leather armours then +1 vs CA and -1 vs BA and CAII per 10 AP.
or from bluesuit to BoS CA a Sniper Rifle is (approx): -46.7% -40.0% -48.1% -51.1% -49.1% 69.3% 104.9% 710.8% -6.1% 5.3% 5.5%
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Let's compare it to sniper rifle which is good enough to kill a man with metal armor mk II and sometimes in CA in one shot what is almost impossible in laser rifle due to this horrible metal resistance.
So, even if the stats for sniper rifle shots to BA CA are extremally better than with laser rifle (I don't agree with that numbers but ok, I am not known-everything guy) notice that there are maybe 5 players per 100 wearing CA BA while more than half of them wears metal armor mk I or mk II.
That's why its totally imbalanced.
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Give special ability to special (each?) weapon like energy weapon, plasma can irradiate you, laser have great chance to blind you. (with a gatling laser .. 10 radiated impulse can be nice, 2-3 burst with it and SPECIAL of opponent could be affected)
For the FN FAL HPFA, if we want respect the description, use all magazine why not but remove bonus damage and make it same as the fn fal (so make it like fallout 2). Final damage will be still better than actual version but you have to reload each time. (Full magazine and bonus in these damage is too much in my opinion)
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My next question would then be why does the reduced damage carry over for eye shots?Seems like lasers would be great if shooting the unprotected eyes didnt suffer the same reduced damage as shooting the torso.Why is it the same?Metal armor has no helmet and it could be reasoned that the visor on CA couldnt possibly be made of the same materials as the rest because it most likey wouldnt be transparent.
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Because when u shoot at me with a laser gun I hide my head like a turtle :)
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Getting lasers to the eye should give you a reverse crit that heals blindness and increases your PE just like at the laser eye surgery in the mall.
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My next question would then be why does the reduced damage carry over for eye shots?Seems like lasers would be great if shooting the unprotected eyes didnt suffer the same reduced damage as shooting the torso.Why is it the same?Metal armor has no helmet and it could be reasoned that the visor on CA couldnt possibly be made of the same materials as the rest because it most likey wouldnt be transparent.
there is no diffrent protection char % for diffrent body parts. even metal armor with no head will reduce the damage you take when getting hit in the head/eyes.
However Head and Eye shot have a CHANCE to bypass armor completly. This chance is the only hope for energy gunners when they fight against bigguners or small gunners :(
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There is no seperation for armours yet, of course you've all seen the 3D models so it would be safe for you to assume that helmets protecting heads/eyes will come in.
Also, Lasers problem is only against Metal Armours, it doesn't make them useless.
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It does in PvP because how I wrote, more than a half of players wear now metal armors, 1/4 wear nothing, about 10% wear jackets or leather armors, maybe 5% of them wears CA or BA.
That makes laser rifles almost totally useless in PvP.
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It does in PvP because how I wrote, more than a half of players wear now metal armors, 1/4 wear nothing, about 10% wear jackets or leather armors, maybe 5% of them wears CA or BA.
That makes laser rifles almost totally useless in PvP.
agreed. also CS protects over 60% against laser AND plasma while only bout 40% normal while .223 ammo takes 20% of DR. Lasers are crap against anything from metal and crap(and everybody can afford stupid metal), plasma gets stopped by Combat armors, but plasma rifle has 25 range so it still makes it crap in PVP.
Don't belive? Fight a bigguner/smallgunner without getting lucky enough to do a Critical, Bypass, Knockdown shot. EW = dead meat ;]
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On topic: Umm people and mods, this is getting a bit offtopic dont you think?
Back off topic: I dont think there needs to be any discussion about all of this until there is AP energy cells. EW and SG have the same chances to score armorbypassing crits, so its a tie, but keep in mind that mid tier+ armor is practically immune to energy, SG even having AP ammo. Solar not even teh awesome powa of math can prove you right in this case.
Also: Tesla armor+psycho=OP. Nerf drugs, nuff said
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EW needs plasma rifles, plasma is one of the damage types that high end gear has the least resistance to. Hell even PA doesn't resist it well.
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God damn, wtf.
This thread digressed from the topic and went all over the place.
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It does in PvP because how I wrote, more than a half of players wear now metal armors, 1/4 wear nothing, about 10% wear jackets or leather armors, maybe 5% of them wears CA or BA.
That makes laser rifles almost totally useless in PvP.
Laser Rifle 25-50 => Average Damage = 37.5. AP 7 to eyes.
Sniper Rifle 14-34 => Average Damage = 24. AP 8 to eyes.
Let’s go for targeting Metal Mk II. This makes Laser Rifles useless apparently.
17/80% Laser
4/35% Normal
Normal shot is therefore:
Laser = (37.5-17)*0.2 = 4.1
Sniper = (24-4)*0.65 = 13. Then reduce this to compare AP fairly = 13*7/8 = 11.375.
Difference is 7.275 per Laser shot.
Now compare an Armour Bypass result.
Laser = (37.5-(17/5))*0.84 = 28.644
Sniper = 24*0.93 = 22.32. Then reduce again = 22.32*7/8 = 19.53
Difference is 9.114 per Laser shot.
You would therefore only need to have an Armour Bypass result 44% of your shots that hit to do near identical damage to Metal Mk II with a Laser Rifle and a Sniper Rifle. I don’t have my spreadsheets here at work, but something in this region isn’t beyond the realms of possibility.
You also get 15% more shots with the Laser Rifle, so 15% more shots that could blind, instakill, cripple etc.
So in the end (much) better vs Leather Armours, comparable vs Metal Armours, better vs CA+ and gives more rolls on the critical table.
Don't really agree with calling them useless :-\
(Note: I can't be bothered factoring in critical multipliers, but these would favour the Laser Rifle anyway)
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Numbers... numbers wrotten probably without spending long time playing with both weapons.
"Average" dmg in FOnline totally does not means the most frequent especially when % (in which critical chance, bypass chance etc.) are actually to complete rework as someone wrote before.
When I'll get some free time I will spent it for trying this and also for the topic about respawns.
Until it'll be done I propose to close temporary this topic or permanently and I'll make topic about Laser dmg vs Normal dmg somewhen.
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Critical do max damages x 2-4.
Laser rifle do insane damages on all criticals and it's one of the main strength of sniper builds and for less AP and the same range ...
Don't know where laser sniper could be crap, except maybe against tesla.
So if you want to say laser screw, don't speak of snipers, seriously ...
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You can type up whatever you like whenever you like, I'll just link you to my post above. (Or the improved one that may land after I get home to the exact critical numbers).
Poor, misunderstood Lasers :(
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"Let’s go for targeting Metal Mk II. This makes Laser Rifles useless apparently.
17/80% Laser
4/35% Normal"
17/80 for MKII isn't it 7/80? Cause the values in the wiki is 7/80 and this raise a bit average dam for laser rifle. (to 6.1)
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Ah, Indeed it is. So I was a little too harsh on the Laser, though looking through it now I've not taken the .223 armour mod off either. Time for a better version!
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So, will it be changed? ::)
Or maybe added a pulse (or other electrical) weapon? :P
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Average dams are 17 for sniper and 6.1 for laser rifle on a metal MKII and sniper cost 1 more AP per shot
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Right, finished the (tedius) number crunching factoring in bypasses, critical damage modifiers, the right armour stats, the right ammo stats, AP cost, reload time etc.
You will do on average ...
... presuming you have 75% crit chance (not hard) better crits (you're a sniper, duh!) and you are shooting a 6 luck target (reasonably typical) who has Metal Mk II on him ...
+3.8% damage for Sniper Rifles!
As you approach 95% crit chance the damage becomes almost equal.
Other interesting bits:
vs CA Sniper will only do 78.3975% of the damage that a Laser will @ 75% crit chance vs luck 6 target.
Tesla still is a hard counter to Laser ... Sniper is +44% damage
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So how would it be with new energy weapons and/or laser rework? :P
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Well, outside of intending to introduce the turbo plasma at some point, seems the rest are fine to me.
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So there is no way to add any pulse/electrical ranged weapon? :'(
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Straight damage comparison isn't fully justified because:
LR has 5 less range
LR requires 1 more STR
EW starts at a lower skill% then SG above 1 AGI (min/max +2%/-25%)
MFCs are more expensive/rare then .223
*EW shots have a "traceable animation"
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Straight damage comparison isn't fully justified because:
LR has 5 less range
LR requires 1 more STR
EW starts at a lower skill% then SG above 1 AGI (min/max +2%/-25%)
MFCs are more expensive/rare then .223
*EW shots have a "traceable animation"
Those are actually heavy arguments
Last two which makes laser rifles almost useless in PvP.
EDIT: ow yeah I wanted to suggest, some EW weapons thread merging or something ^^ this is a looooot out of topic
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Straight damage comparison isn't fully justified because:
LR has 5 less range
LR requires 1 more STR
EW starts at a lower skill% then SG above 1 AGI (min/max +2%/-25%)
MFCs are more expensive/rare then .223
*EW shots have a "traceable animation"
.. more:
223 ammo substracts 20 from AC of your target (which results in extra accuracy with sniper/hunting rifle = less skill needed),
Laser rifle + MFC is much heavier than sniper rifle + 223.
Well, personally I play only SG, but I agree that EW should get some boost. Maybe introducing turbo plasma rifle would do the job..
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Very minor considerations indeed.
Laser rifle does more damage to every Armour type except Tesla (does less) and Metal Mk II (does about equal).
Weigh against this that it is slightly more difficult to hit with, where hitting is generally pretty easy for a decently made char and needs 1 more point in Str.
A worthwhile trade for +25% damage to CA? Of course.
EW are fine in comparison to SG.
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Laser Rifle ignore psycho an Toughness and do 49 base damages on critical bypass (multiplie by 3 to 8 for final critt dams).
So if the guy have a Tesla ok you are screwed (you still do 0-3) , your only way to do something is critical bypass, but for a sniper, don't think it's that hard ...
On the other hand, even with a x3 critical you kill almost anybody 147 dam for the worst crit in the torso, i'd really like to do so, even only once per 10 shot ...
Maybe laser sniper should simply not use Finesse to avoid the 100dr (but anyway bypass ignore finesse ...), and this is maybe why you have issues, since apparently players don't know how finesse work (Atom fixed the minds on another topic about that)
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Laser Rifle ignore psycho an Toughness and do 49 base damages on critical bypass (multiplie by 3 to 8 for final critt dams).
So if the guy have a Tesla ok you are screwed (you still do 0-3) , your only way to do something is critical bypass, but for a sniper, don't think it's that hard ...
On the other hand, even with a x3 critical you kill almost anybody 147 dam for the worst crit in the torso, i'd really like to do so, even only once per 10 shot ...
Maybe laser sniper should simply not use Finesse to avoid the 100dr (but anyway bypass ignore finesse ...), and this is maybe why you have issues, since apparently players don't know how finesse work (Atom fixed the minds on another topic about that)
bypass does not ignore finesse
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Atom just said it on the sg balance thread and it's written here http://falloutmods.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_engine_calculations
So crits bypass armor AND finesse.
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Atom just said it on the sg balance thread and it's written here http://falloutmods.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_engine_calculations
So crits bypass armor.
gimme a sec to check and verify. However i have tested this in game, so last time i checked every crit was dealing less damage, even bypass
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The only thing not ignored by bypass ar ammo modifier and DT (which is divided by 5 apparently) so that could make some slight differences toward base damages.
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The only thing not ignored by bypass ar ammo modifier and DT (which is divided by 5 apparently) so that could make some slight differences toward base damages.
Strange I remember a thread about finesse(maybe on NMA forums)... It was stated there that it actually gives a 30% damage penalty but in FO not by adding DR to a target, but by simply reducing the damage. hmmm. I belive a dev said it too also. Atom can you confirm please?
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Finesse is ignored when armour is bypassed.
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Laser Rifle ignore psycho
SG sniper wont be seen by a psycho user, while an EW sniper will give away their location
Revealing where you are with each shot is not what I would consider a minor consideration
No finesse, I assume SR and GR, .223s and 2mmECs do not have "penetrate" perk
Weapon (min/max) Damage per shot; Damage per AP; Damage per AP + BRoF
MAMK2 (+ toughness x2) Normal 8/45 Laser 7/80
LR 3/8 ; 0.43/1.14 ; 0.5/1.33
SR 4.5/19.5; 0.56/2.43; 0.64/2.79 (AKA 30-113% and 28-110% more DPAP, avg +70%)
(and if bullet/gun rarity is a "minor" consideration)
GR 27/39 ; 3.86/5.57 ; 4.5/8.6 (AKA 389-799% and 547-800% more DPAP then LR)
BA (+toughness x2) Normal 12/50 Laser 8/70 Plasma 7/60
LR 5.1/12.6 ; 0.73/1.8 ; 0.85/2.1
SR 1.4/15.4 ; 0.18/1.9 ; 0.2/2.2 (AKA [-75]-[+5]% and [-76]-[+4]% avg is ~2/3 DPAP compared to LR or LR does 50% more)
XL70E3 (AP) 6/10 ; 0.8/1.37 ; 0.93/1.6 (AKA [-24]-[+9]%, avg 9/10 DPAP compared to LR)
(when range is a "minor" consideration)
PR 9.2/23.2 ; 1.31/3.3 ; 1.53/3.87
14mm 10/20 ; 1.66/3.3 ; 2/4 (0-31% better then PR, 90-127% better then LR)
LAMK2 (+toughness x2) Normal 7/35 Laser 1/20 Plasma 1/10
LR 19/39 ; 2.7/5.6 ; 3.2/6.5
SR 6/23 ; 0.75/2.9 ; 0.86/3.29 (AKA [-72]-[-48]%, avg is ~2/5 DPAP compared to LR or LR does 150% more)
(And when we factor out range)
PR 32/58 ; 4.57/8.29
.223 pistol 16/24 ; 2.3/3.43
So Solar would be right that EW is fine if your strictly griefing bluesuits and leather wearers.
CA can be handled better with the wide assortment of SG guns/ammo.
Metal armor rocks lasers and Tesla hasn't even been considered yet...
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You haven't factored everything in. Who is firing snipers or lasers without going for crits? :-\
The increase to bypasses and the nerf to insta-death gave lasers a big boost.
Very minor considerations indeed.
Laser rifle does more damage to every Armour type except Tesla (does less) and Metal Mk II (does about equal).
Weigh against this that it is slightly more difficult to hit with, where hitting is generally pretty easy for a decently made char and needs 1 more point in Str.
A worthwhile trade for +25% damage to CA? Of course.
EW are fine in comparison to SG.
That doesn't include finesse, but again finesse would favour Lasers and make them even better.
Lasers are much better for Bluesuits, LJ, LA, LA MkII, CLJ
Lasers are better for CA, CA MkII, BA
Lasers are just as good vs Metal and Metal MkII
Lasers are worse vs Tesla
They also ignore Psycho and get more shots (so more secondary crit results). Nothing wrong with Lasers for PvP.
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"CA can be handled better with the wide assortment of SG guns/ammo." Ahahah which SG do you speak of?
Except the snipers there is only one SG that can be good enough to be an issue for a guy in CA and it's the P90c, one gun don't make an assortment :D
And if you use a sniper anyway you go for crits, and on this point Laser Rifle is so much more stronger.
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If the crit table was public and less subject to change it would be easier to consider that.
14mm does more to BA then any laser weapon with non-bypass crits (calculations shown), but if you want to play the finesse/bypass arguement..
With Bonus Ranged Damagex2/Finesse against BA or MA only bypasses do any significant damage anyways and it turns out like this
Magnum JHP (48-66 avg 57) > Plasma Rifle (39-69 avg 54) > Laser Rifle (29-54 avg 41) > XL70XE JHP (32-46 avg 39)
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Plasma, 14mm and magnum are bad weapons for a high critical based build like snipers cause they have poor ranges and no accuracy, which is not that easy for aiming the eyes.
Crit tables doesn't seem to be changed that much compared to original, i only know about nerfing of insta kill which is a good thing, but all rolls get at least a x1.5 damages (yeah it's divided by 2) and you can go up to x4 in the eyes, which is insane in the case of a Laser Rifle and if you have better criticals i remember you triger each hit a bypass or 4/5 of the time ...
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Solar, can you comment on the possibility of making the FN FAL HPFA fire the entire magazine in one burst as the description says it does.
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The description is much more likely to be changed, I'd guess.
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Lol.
But seriously, when I decided to make a small gunner, a big part of that decision I made based on that description, thinking that I will have some versatility by being able to do aimed shots and by being able to do good bursts with the HPFA.
Big gunners kill small gunners in 2 bursts. Small gunners can't kill or knock out a big gunner in 2 shots. They are not as powerful as big gunners if they go for aimed shots and they will not be as powerful as big gunners if they go for HPFA burst shots, so why not at least give them some versatility?
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Yup, ARs need a boost, but I doubt it'd be firing their entire magazine. FN FAL stuff would be a fix to 7.62mm I think
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Yeah a fixe could be great cause all 7.62 weapons are desperatly weak, even the M60 (compared to avenger).
But still this ammos will remain really rares.
Maybe making them AP would be a good start to be some match against 0.223 and 5mm AP.
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Sorry. What are ARs?
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Assult Rifles, so Assault Rifles themselves, FN FALs, XL70
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Ooh.
So you like the idea of the FN FAL HPFA firing the entire magazine?
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Yup, ARs need a boost, but I doubt it'd be firing their entire magazine. FN FAL stuff would be a fix to 7.62mm I think
It's 4 posts up ...
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Well, i think FN FAL could use an upgrade, if one thinks that 20 bulelts are too much then why not make it 15 and extend mag to 30. But, i think 20 bullet would do okey, not too good, not too bad.
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20 bullet burst would be nothing short of pure retarded. the damage count is simply too high. the HPFA needs something like faster reload or less AP usage to make the gun more useful. tacking damage onto everything has gotten us to where we are now......
just make it fire 14mm ammo :D
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20 bullet burst would make it the equivalent damage wise to the avenger, but at more than one hex its only really like 68-136 damage roughly. At least sg would be able to compete, right now it cant because bg has better rang and damage, the only decent sg for end game is sniper rifle and lasers do more damage so...