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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: FischiPiSti on May 08, 2010, 02:23:41 pm
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Notice that AP doesnt regenerate while doing actions. Switching active weapon slots, reloading, attacking, using skills like FA,using items like drugs, accessing inventory and switching weapons, whatever.
One would think that if an action costs less AP, one could use more of that action because the AP regenerates while he is.
For example in RT if you have fast shot, 10 AG, and 100 rocks in your pocket, you could throw them without losing any AP at all. But thats not the case. You are furiously clicking the target throwing 10 rocks, then stop, because your AP is all gone. You COULD think that this is OK because that 1 AP regenerates fast and you can continue throwing, but no, its not ok.
Place a sniper with no BRoF next to the throwing guy, and tell them to fire at a random target. The sniper is using aimed eye shots which cost a lot of ap.
But notice the difference? Because the sniper guy does no actions inbetween the shots, he is regenerating AP. The throwing guy has ZERO AP regeneration because he is constantly taking actions.
This is a problem.
Switching active weapon slots costs no AP at all, or does it? Yes is does, because AP doesnt regenerate while doing it. The system should encourage strategic uses of weapons, but currently, switching weapons is very risky because: 1. You cant do other action for that 1 second, and 2. If you have low AP you cant fire immediately. These 2 reasons encourage to use only 1 item and spam untill the enemy falls over.
The less AP it takes for that action, the less regeneration. Spamming normal stimpacks into yourself while taking bursts from sawed off shotguns.
So...Does that BRoF REALLY worth it? Well yeah it does, if the starting pool of AP permits it, you can start off with more attacks which can easily mean survival for you, but after you blow all your AP it actually has no effect because yes you can initiate the next attack quicker, but AP regeneration suffers.
You can have 2 perks that lower AP requirements. 1 for HtH and 1 for ranged. In TB, BHtHA is far superior, because if you take the ripper for example, that 1 perk grants you 33% more attacks. With a rifle for example with base 5 AP/single shots, then thats only 20%. With a sniper aimed eye shot, its only 12,5%. I would have a suggestion for this, that bonus attack perks should lower AP in percentage rather then just 1 AP, but thats for another discussion. In RT the perks work the other way around, because the same actions take the same amount of time to complete(same slow animations), even tho you have bonus attack perks.
So you STILL COULD think that this is ok right? WRONG. In TB there is no such factor as AP regeneration. You suffer no penalty for using alot of low-AP actions, and you can switch weapons as you wish.
So what could be done you ask? Well 2 things:
1 AP should regenerate at all times exept when moving ofc(exept for bonus move perks)
2 (and/or)The upcoming 3d animations should have 3 speed versions: Normal attack, fast shot, fastshot+bonus attacks
(In WoW(yeah...again...) there are abilities that grant bonus attacks. These attacks actually show up with faster animations so they fit in the rotation.)
The first one would be the best solution obviously.
So inb4 Solar: "The engine doesnt permit this."
Do the devs have plans to fix/improve on the issue? :)
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I think (as probably said in some others suggestion) that Sequence should influence the speed of AP regeneration.
Or maybe we can stay in "family" and look at Fallout Tactics: if I remember well AP regeneration is faster there.
I've also a question, since we are in argument: Bonus Move grant AP regeneration when moving for few steps?
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Bonus move have 0 effect in RT afaik. Anyway AP regen is a good topic and I would like to see some changes there. But I believe that even while walking/running APs should regenerate. Slowly but regenerate. Like while walking its 1/3 of regular AP regen speed and while running its 1/4.
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No its not, itwas just a hint for devs to make it usable outside of TB combat ;)
But its not possible to do because of engine restrictions... Wish the project would be opensource :/ (inb4 solar :D)
IMO AP regeneration should generally be slower, because RT combat ends way too fast. But that would just make jet junkies even more powerfull, so i guess its fine the way it is. Doing fast actions however as i explained in the post has serious penalties and should be changed as soon as the engine permits it. It should be top priority imo.
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In our big thread, PvP balance, AP regeneration is one way how to balance SMG.. they would, in oposite of assault rifles and big guns, regenerate during shoting, moving,... So i think that universal regenaration is very bad idea. It will only very help BG, it will be their another burst...
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No its not, in my eyes this is a BUG rather then a feature, balance should be done with item perks/regular perks.
So yeah SMG could have an item perk that has a +AP regeneration stat, that would be balance. This is just a bug, that is "exploited" daily by snipers.
And its not about BG, BG bursts have reasonably high AP costs, im worried about HtH actually, and everyday actions/skill like stimpacks and FA/doc. 2 AP ripper slashes in RT.......Not as good as you might think it is.
And general stuff like shoveling shit...
Besides how do you expect to balance SMG with this feature if the engine doesnt let it atm?
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In our big thread, PvP balance, AP regeneration is one way how to balance SMG.. they would, in oposite of assault rifles and big guns, regenerate during shoting, moving,... So i think that universal regenaration is very bad idea. It will only very help BG, it will be their another burst...
ap cost is for that not ap regeneration. Ap regeneration should be constant for everyone if they have same stats on which regeneration depends.
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Fights are already really fast. Don't make them even faster.
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Yeah fights end fast but not because AP regeneration, but because high tier weapons have too much damage. In single player TB you dont notice it, because TB is a balanced game of chess. But in RT the first jet junkie that empties his AP pool is the winner.
...But thats again, another story.
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ap cost is for that not ap regeneration. Ap regeneration should be constant for everyone if they have same stats on which regeneration depends.
i know this, but BGunners do generaly bigger damages, so their overal damage in time will be bigger.
I.e.: BG/2 bursts/dmg 160 in cca 8 sec. (ap reg time). after AP regeneration: BG/3 butsts/dmg 240 (because ofter 2 bursts they will have at least half of their AP regenerated).
SG/2 bursts/dmg 60 in cca 8 sec -II- after AP regeneration: SG/3 bursts/dmg 90( -II).
Do you see that problem? Actualy, there is no need to give another advantge to BGs.. IMO this AP reg will help to dozens of now in PvP unused guns..
Think global, act local, not in different way, Vedaras.
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Ah Lordus...
This an issue of RT mechanics, not a question of balance dont you see? :-\
In TB everybody has the same AP "regeneration" then everybody, HtH, docs, BGs, SGs, ENs, they all have the same chances. Sequence helps with who shoots first. All this is missing from RT. Snipers have more regeneration, so over time, they will do more damage, then anybody else. BGs do more damage in the "first round" because they have:
10 AG. Fast shot. BRoF. 2x action boy. 2 jet. Thats a total of frikkin 18 AP afaik(never been an addict and never plan to be so this is according to the wiki), and with 5 APs/burst you will get pwned nomatter what your AP regeneration is. So if you want balance, start with jet please, not with the core mechanics of the game.
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10 AG. Fast shot. BRoF. 2x action boy. 2 jet. Thats a total of frikkin 18 AP afaik(never been an addict and never plan to be so this is according to the wiki), and with 5 APs/burst you will get pwned nomatter what your AP regeneration is. So if you want balance, start with jet please, not with the core mechanics of the game.
What prevents Snipers from having 15+ AP too ?
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What prevents Snipers from having 15+ AP too ?
Well...the 7 perk limit actually. Snipers choose better criticals+more criticals, and even then, they dont need many APs. The crits keep the victim on the ground so in RT its actually worth more to wait for the victim to get up again using 3 AP and only attack after that.
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Ah Lordus...
This an issue of RT mechanics, not a question of balance dont you see? :-\
In TB everybody has the same AP "regeneration" then everybody, HtH, docs, BGs, SGs, ENs, they all have the same chances. Sequence helps with who shoots first. All this is missing from RT. Snipers have more regeneration, so over time, they will do more damage, then anybody else. BGs do more damage in the "first round" because they have:
10 AG. Fast shot. BRoF. 2x action boy. 2 jet. Thats a total of frikkin 18 AP afaik(never been an addict and never plan to be so this is according to the wiki), and with 5 APs/burst you will get pwned nomatter what your AP regeneration is. So if you want balance, start with jet please, not with the core mechanics of the game.
As i remember, AP are full regenerated in cca 8 seconds. It does not depends, if you have 5 AP or 16 AP character build. So in 16 seconds, my sniper was able to shoot 3x (if my AP was fully regenerated before first shot), and biggunner with BRoF, 2x ap and 2 jet = 3 x 16 = 48 maximum AP .. 3*5 +3 = 18 (3 bursts and reload) 48 of total point / 18 = === 8 bursts (with 2 reloads)
And i repeat, for kidn of weapons, with totaly overpowered atributes (look to my Single player problem definition graph).
Sorry, but this is nonsense.
What prevents Snipers from having 15+ AP too ?
If the positive drug effect is away, sniper is unable to use his weapon (he cant use eye or headshots). Biggunner is still able to burst.
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You really dont get my point and dont even try.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BALANCE. THIS IS A BUG.
If a weapon has high DPS, lower it by increasing AP cost, or lower it by damage. THATS balancing.
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Agreed last wipe my hth char could attack times per turn, but due to ap regen syopping during a punch animation i'd get about 2.5 punches per 5 seconds instead of the 6 i was supposed to have.
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You really dont get my point and dont even try.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BALANCE. THIS IS A BUG.
If a weapon has high DPS, lower it by increasing AP cost, or lower it by damage. THATS balancing.
This is not bug. First era (in august 09) this AP regeneration during movement and shooting was already here. But devs then turn this ability of, because fights were quick. (off topic, they were longer than now, but because players created they chars more similar to their Fallout 1/2 ideal, now they created pupre power builds).
But you lack of global view. It does not matter how you called it (bug, measure, purpose...). If you allow the AP regeneration, fights will be quicker. Thats against that most of us wants (Equip char, enter the are, die in 10 sec and wait 5 minutes to be ready over the city).
And, of couse, DONT SHOUT ON ME, even if you are wrong or not.
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Actually it is a bug, animations shouldn't pause ap regen as they are purely a cosmetic function. This also penalizes actions with long animations (like punching, flamer) while helping ones with short animations such as single shots.
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Actually it is a bug, animations shouldn't pause ap regen as they are purely a cosmetic function. This also penalizes actions with long animations (like punching, flamer) while helping ones with short animations such as single shots.
Thats definitely something unwanted. It could serve as another atribute how to balance stuff f.e. punching could use fast animation while minigun burst takes longer to execute and so on. But considering insane amount of work needed its easier just to allow APs to regenerate no matter what animation is being played and balance stuff through other means.
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Actually it is a bug, animations shouldn't pause ap regen as they are purely a cosmetic function. This also penalizes actions with long animations (like punching, flamer) while helping ones with short animations such as single shots.
It does not matter how you called it (bug, measure, purpose...). If you allow the AP regeneration, fights will be quicker. Because biggunners will able to burst in 8 seconds double time than now. So you want this?
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Look pvp balancing aside this is a bug. You can't just ignore bugs because it will change the nature of combat, you need to fix it and the combat system simultaneously. AP regeneration won't change, it'll just affect all weapon types equally which it should. Your claims this will help big gunners isn't based on anything.
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Look pvp balancing aside this is a bug. You can't just ignore bugs because it will change the nature of combat, you need to fix it and the combat system simultaneously. AP regeneration won't change, it'll just affect all weapon types equally which it should. Your claims this will help big gunners isn't based on anything.
I have to repeat, every change has its own effect. It does not depends, if it is called bug solution or whatever.
Because animation of bursting minugunners is longer than smg burst, the smg or assault rifle owner has at least quite bigger chance to survie. If you will disable this effect, their chance will be smaller. This is fact.
So, if you want to make a chance, think globaly, or you will fall into the swamp more deeply.
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I have to repeat, every change has its own effect. It does not depends, if it is called bug solution or whatever.
Because animation of bursting minugunners is longer than smg burst, the smg or assault rifle owner has at least quite bigger chance to survie. If you will disable this effect, their chance will be smaller. This is fact.
So, if you want to make a chance, think globaly, or you will fall into the swamp more deeply.
Well it's not the animations which should balance this (smgVSminigun), it's the AP cost. And the AP cost is already here and balanced. So the animation time is an additional thing and it unbalance this. So it should be changed.
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Look pvp balancing aside this is a bug. You can't just ignore bugs because it will change the nature of combat, you need to fix it and the combat system simultaneously. AP regeneration won't change, it'll just affect all weapon types equally which it should. Your claims this will help big gunners isn't based on anything.
Actually it could help someone but I don't know who that might be. F.e. kicking takes shitload of time to execute that animation. With AP regen during animation I could get like +0.7 AP regenerated during animation play time. Anyway the difference between each animations such as throwing/shooting/bursting/using is really small and I doubt that it would make any serious balance issues. And as for the "already too fast combats" argument its nothing that should prevent devs from repairing this bug.
Imho combat should take longer but equally to that APs or actions we can do in combat should increase. Right now some of you don't want APs to regenerate. But if we make AP regen slower then all we can do in fight is literary stand next to each other and interrupt the silence with shooting once in a while. Its the same thing we are experiencing now, it just happens faster. Combat should be longer in matter of how we can attack/defend/react on ours opponents actions and not how much time does it take. Right now we can either run or shoot. And thats the thing that should change and boosting AP regen could only help making things more dynamic.
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If anything AP for shooting BG should be increased.
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If anything AP for shooting BG should be increased.
Ahahahahaha.. I agree with you, but:
With 3 perks, +1 free perk (fast shot trait), you need to double its required AP to make it comparable with assault riffles and SMG, but NOBODY from BG users wants to listen this.
So this current "bug" or whatever is hidden, small, advantage for non BG PVP build and you will erase it, but you will not enforce the raising of AP needed for BG burst.
Also, i think that the possibility of "make AP reg. during movement, fight, for SMG, SG, HtH, melee.." is more bigger, than to raise AP for bigguners.
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Lordus look...If you want to call this anything, than this is a hidden SG buff. Not a hidden BG nerf, because it has an effect on every single action in the game. Even on snipers. Throwing grenades. Throwing knives. Switching weapons. Healing. etc etc etc. Im standing in my base making rotgut, wood is in one of my hands, fruit is in the other. And i have constant zero AP. Its just not right. If anyone isnt thinking globaly, its you because you think this is the only advantage SG has over BG. Game needs balance sure. But you just cannot take BUGS into account when you try to balance. Bugs-need-fixing. Simple as that. If the bug is gone, and you have an intended enviroment, you can start testing, giving feedback, devs balance.
Fast ending fight are indeed a problem, i agree on that, but AP regen isnt the problem. It would actually be better to have 0 AP out of combat in RT, and when somebody initiates an attack and combat opens up, AP would start to generate. This way, no minigunner could burst 3 times in a row. They would have the first attack however, because bursting costs less AP. But thats ok right? Low AP action beeing faster then high AP action. This system would be a kind of "RT sequence".
The other and main problem however is that weapons are powerfull, players have low hp. No RPG out there features death in 1-3 hits. Sure this is realistic, but has a serious negative impact on gameplay. Its just not satisfying to kill with no effort, and its even worse ofc if you die with 0 chance to defend yourself.
How this could be improved? Players should have 2x hp as default. In TB, the health would be halved during combat. But this is offtopic
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Lordus look...If you want to call this anything, than this is a hidden SG buff. Not a hidden BG nerf, because it has an effect on every single action in the game. Even on snipers. Throwing grenades. Throwing knives. Switching weapons. Healing. etc etc etc. Im standing in my base making rotgut, wood is in one of my hands, fruit is in the other. And i have constant zero AP. Its just not right. If anyone isnt thinking globaly, its you because you think this is the only advantage SG has over BG. Game needs balance sure. But you just cannot take BUGS into account when you try to balance. Bugs-need-fixing. Simple as that. If the bug is gone, and you have an intended enviroment, you can start testing, giving feedback, devs balance.
If you fix this, you will be unable to add another balance feauture, which will nerf, limit, or whatever BG (look to other threads, i am kind of heretic, because i am telling simple fact, that this kind of guns kills the variety of weapons and pvp styles). So i think, that this is very good option how to make more usabable PvP weapons from dozens of small guns existing in the game (http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Small_Guns). Only SG usable for PvP is Sniper riffle. Look at the list.. It is sad, isnt it?
But i have to repeat, in first era, your AP was regenerated during your actions, and devs then decided to turn this ability off. So IMO this is not the bug, but it is sideeffect of unbalance because of animations lenght. But this problem is here, because Fallout is naturaly single player turnbased game and nobody expect that this will be a problem in future (10 years after the original Falout was created).
So this is, IMO, not problem of solving the bug, but problem of balance.
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Lordus he is right, as for sniper rifle being the only option hunting rifles and p90c are both great weapons for pvp. Balance shouldn't rely on bugs but a well thought out system.
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Lordus he is right, as for sniper rifle being the only option hunting rifles and p90c are both great weapons for pvp. Balance shouldn't rely on bugs but a well thought out system.
Hunting riffle is here, because instakills. But if you want to join real PvP, you need to take your best stuff. And hunting is not the kind of best stuff.
P90 .. ok, tell me, who will win if player with avenger and p90 will meet in city on cca 15-20 hex??? So where is the balance here.
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OMG we are telling you that the only people in the game that benefits from this are SNIPER RIFLES
It doesnt have a good effect on shotguns because it takes less AP. Less AP, more actions, less AP regenerations. It doesnt have a good effect on pistols. Wortst effect: SMG burst takes 4 AP with BRoF, and its a long animation.
K, i give up.
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OMG we are telling you that the only people in the game that benefits from this are SNIPER RIFLES
It doesnt have a good effect on shotguns because it takes less AP. Less AP, more actions, less AP regenerations. It doesnt have a good effect on pistols. Wortst effect: SMG burst takes 4 AP with BRoF, and its a long animation.
K, i give up.
OMG, i am telling you that i want to play BALANCED game and if you allow this AP reg for EVERY weapons, you will have to REDUCE some other weapons ability. Because ANY BGUNNER does NOT want to reduce the firepower of that kind of guns and any BGunner does NOT want to add special limitation (like unable to run with minigun class weapons in your active slot), THIS AP REGENERATION IS VERY ULTIMATE BALANCE FEAUTURE that SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED TO VERY ENDANGERED or EXTINCT KIND of PvP WEAPONS, instead of implemetning it to all weapons.
k, i give up.
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Hunting riffle is here, because instakills. But if you want to join real PvP, you need to take your best stuff. And hunting is not the kind of best stuff.
P90 .. ok, tell me, who will win if player with avenger and p90 will meet in city on cca 15-20 hex??? So where is the balance here.
considering the p90c can burst 4 times in a row with a reload at the end i'd say it's 50/50 depending on who hits first. It's a trade off between being able to kill 2 guys in a row vs 4.
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i think the battles in RT would finish a bit later if the players started with 1/3 of their max AP, or an amount of AP based on their sequence, because from what i`ve seen the first 4 seconds of the battle usually define it, its the time where everyone unloads their gun like theres no tomorrow.
it would also help if actions like picking stuff up, using drugs, etc, didnt consume AP, they should just stop AP regeneration.
Swiching weapons should be instantaneous and without animation during combat, because it takes AGES for it to happen.
there should be keys to reload your gun or change its type of ammo like in FPS`s to make it faster and more intuitive.