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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Closed suggestions => Topic started by: kraskish on April 29, 2010, 12:45:14 pm
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Hello,
I believe the devs didnt create such theft system like its now intentionally. In NCR (guarded town) if theres no penalty for stealing like before (guards shoot) neither no penalty for browsing the stuff of the other, just the bad karma for actual stealing made a perfect environment for thieves in NCR, around 3 vendors, people trade and they shamelessly browse the stuff when they barter. I mean, looking 1 sec at the vendor with your loot and the 2nd second at the character (for thieves) is not so convenient. theres a disadvantage for the bartering, usual people as I think some people dont change the barter window place and simply dont see the thief browsing, and even when looking the thief is sometimes faster than you press ESC and move... The result of this is massive plague of thieves in NCR, not to mention bank, where you need to look around too, but most funny thing is, you can kill/attack/steal in the bank!
I think a solution to this theft would be to make the bartering people engaged upon attempt of stealing like the vendor/shopkeeper when 3 people barter that he is too busy, so that the thief uses steal but receives a message "the target is busy". Its simply not fair (and makes the game more annoying) because thieves are simply on the advantaged position.
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Give thieves a chance! When I'm at NCR they can escape only if robbing someone near exit grid and then instantly leaving NCR, if they far away from exit grid, they usually die.
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Well, imagine that, I (and a lot of people) travel to NCR to craft and then sell I need to disarm the weapon to go into the city, then I (and others) would like to simply barter, but cant. The 3 vendors there are all close to exit grid, like 20-30 steps? and after going to the city I (and I think some people too) dont put the gun instantly when leaving, also low levels cant kill the thief. Another option, guarded merchant in NCR. Its like communist fight now.
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Try this (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=41.0).
And if it is still a problem to press esc and run from thief, well...I suggest you to move to another city.
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Yes, that is the problem as I said they have more time than you (with slight delay - you barter in that moment you dont look 20 seconds at your char) pressing ESC is instant but then right click and left its kinda challenge to be faster than 1 click of the thieves... doesnt it?
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nope, get used to it pal, there's no other fair way to get away from thieves.
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i think stealing timeout just needs to be increasedm all we need now :>
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i think stealing timeout just needs to be increasedm all we need now :>
Definitely not the way to go. Cooldowns in general should be smaller or disappear completely since its ultra lame mechanics. I've already posted some ideas at http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=2860.0. Main thing is that people don't know what is happening to them. If someone is using lockpick skill just to troll and act like thief then sure one can never sell anything without constant fear of loosing his stuff and running around is annoying. Some messages in log would help with this and even for thieves since you never know why the window closes, if it was your fail or person moved out of your reach etc...
But guys think about this. Thieves can exist only in NCR, if there is a thief around you can easily spot them and avoid them and those stupid "allseeing" guards make it impossible to steal unnoticed. Also once you steal you are like permanently flagged (with invisible flag) and everyone can kill you without remorse (dunno when that "you caused trouble in this town" flag go away if it go away at all). + once you recognize the thief he is screwed cause of namecolorizing.
So you want to nerf something that is already one of the most limited skills in game, not only you have to invest shitload of perks/skillpoints to be successful, but you are limited with space and time too (since sooner or later you will be known as thief and thats your end). So imho no one side nerf is needed here but more like balance and more options for both sides are required. For victims how to avoid/punish stealing but also how to steal unnoticed/successfully for thieves.
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Definitely not the way to go. Cooldowns in general should be smaller or disappear completely since its ultra lame mechanics. I've already posted some ideas at http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=2860.0. Main thing is that people don't know what is happening to them. If someone is using lockpick skill just to troll and act like thief then sure one can never sell anything without constant fear of loosing his stuff and running around is annoying. Some messages in log would help with this and even for thieves since you never know why the window closes, if it was your fail or person moved out of your reach etc...
But guys think about this. Thieves can exist only in NCR, if there is a thief around you can easily spot them and avoid them and those stupid "allseeing" guards make it impossible to steal unnoticed. Also once you steal you are like permanently flagged (with invisible flag) and everyone can kill you without remorse (dunno when that "you caused trouble in this town" flag go away if it go away at all). + once you recognize the thief he is screwed cause of namecolorizing.
So you want to nerf something that is already one of the most limited skills in game, not only you have to invest shitload of perks/skillpoints to be successful, but you are limited with space and time too (since sooner or later you will be known as thief and thats your end). So imho no one side nerf is needed here but more like balance and more options for both sides are required. For victims how to avoid/punish stealing but also how to steal unnoticed/successfully for thieves.
Well and what if youre not carrying a weapon since you entered the town 2 mins ago or you have 10mm and you cant kill the thief with it. Whats more... It happened to me once that the thief was killed but it was thieves fault he ran into the group of people, but all others go down and then right below the tent. Either way its annoying to barter in NCR.
I agree its undervalued, but it breaches a normal gameplay, when you hunt you hunt, when you pvp you pvp, when you barter... you get robbed....
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I agree its undervalued, but it breaches a normal gameplay, when you hunt you hunt, when you pvp you pvp, when you barter... you get robbed....
1) Also when you come to NCR at good gear you can be bursted.
1a) If you selling .44 FMJ ammo and ignore my messages for like 20 minutes that I want to buy it, I can kill you too.
2) If you entering NCR at any time, you can be bombed.
3) If you're hunting, evil guys can encounter you and kill you.
4) If you're standing and doing nothing, or bartering with other player of NPC, you can be robbed.
etc.
So why only 4th must be removed?
If you want 100% safety stay at Wolrd Map or Tent... but at Bugs board at one topic someone said that he is died at World Map, and at the other topic someone said that NPC merchant spawned at his tent and killed him... so I don't think that there's a safe place at FOnline anymore. So if you want to feel yourself totally safe, don't even log in... oh wait! At Bugs section someone said that his account was deleted... damn! In other words: don't play this game if you don't want to have any problems.
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Thiefs have a hard time as it is in this game, i'm with mr rat
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1) Also when you come to NCR at good gear you can be bursted.
1a) If you selling .44 FMJ ammo and ignore my messages for like 20 minutes that I want to buy it, I can kill you too.
2) If you entering NCR at any time, you can be bombed.
3) If you're hunting, evil guys can encounter you and kill you.
4) If you're standing and doing nothing, or bartering with other player of NPC, you can be robbed.
etc.
So why only 4th must be removed?
If you want 100% safety stay at Wolrd Map or Tent... but at Bugs board at one topic someone said that he is died at World Map, and at the other topic someone said that NPC merchant spawned at his tent and killed him... so I don't think that there's a safe place at FOnline anymore. So if you want to feel yourself totally safe, don't even log in... oh wait! At Bugs section someone said that his account was deleted... damn! In other words: don't play this game if you don't want to have any problems.
Well that are the person-involved risks
1) yes you can - dunno whats the point of being guarded anyway (NCR) you can easily kill within city
2) yes, got it, I dont stand in group of people - avoiding risk
3) outdoorsman skill - related individual problem its good
4) no not doing nothing, and no I dont mean trading with other people because you can step aside somewhere or even on the worldmap, my point is you cant evade stealing while bartering in NCR - SO ANNOYING ( dont tell me to move )
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bla bla...
nah i dont agree with you. If thief would have 5 minutes cooldown for example, player who comes to trade could walk away when thief is trying to rob him, and then trade when thief is on cooldown. Now its impossible to avoid thief for trader, since one thief could terrorize all players comming to same npc trader because of very low cooldown, and its not right for sure.
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Well that are the person-involved risks
1) yes you can - dunno whats the point of being guarded anyway (NCR) you can easily kill within city
2) yes, got it, I dont stand in group of people - avoiding risk
3) outdoorsman skill - related individual problem its good
4) no not doing nothing, and no I dont mean trading with other people because you can step aside somewhere or even on the worldmap, my point is you cant evade stealing while bartering in NCR - SO ANNOYING ( dont tell me to move )
1) You don't understand, one guy SMGing you, you both die, other (friend of guy who bursted you) picking up your items.
1a) I killed (EDIT: oh noes, I didn't kill him, guards crit me instantly, so I insta-killed him only to 0 HP) innocent at NCR only once (don't include bombing), but that moron didn't want to answer on my messages, that I want to buy all ammo he have, he didn't even said "Get off" or something, just ignored.
2) You don't need to stay in gruop, you trading with NPC, another bluesuiter comes near, don't doing any actions behind you, so you don't expect him as a thief, and he's not a thief really, he simply going close to Sha Enin and then setting dynamite on 1 second and then Boom, Sha Enin and everyone who was standing near him are dead.
3) No, I don't talk about YOU encounter THEM. I talking about THEY found YOU. Your outdoorsman won't help you.
4) The same as 2th, while you bartering at NCR, everything can happend, you can barter not only at NCR... there're alot towns at California and even more NPC traders than towns.
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Well that are the person-involved risks
1) yes you can - dunno whats the point of being guarded anyway (NCR) you can easily kill within city
2) yes, got it, I dont stand in group of people - avoiding risk
3) outdoorsman skill - related individual problem its good
4) no not doing nothing, and no I dont mean trading with other people because you can step aside somewhere or even on the worldmap, my point is you cant evade stealing while bartering in NCR - SO ANNOYING ( dont tell me to move )
Yes i'm telling you to move, it's your own dam fault that you are distracted by the merchant, and the thief tries to take advantage off that. It's already incredible hard for thieves to make a living, for once stop whining, and take a higher PE next time.
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I don't want to bring up the same annoying concept of "wasteland is harsh" but you must remember that Fallout (and FOnline as well) is a post-nuclear world when death, mutation and suffer rules.
Many of users message complain about thief and kamikaze and killer and so on, I think you people want a city which is a damn fortress where you can craft and barter without care of anything, you can also leave the characters for 1 hour, come back and found him exactly like he was when you left.
Well, I think that's not the FOnline world. You must expect danger in every angle, you can't be safe at all (but you are, in 2 places: your tent and world map without move).
So, thief is good as it is.
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nah i dont agree with you. If thief would have 5 minutes cooldown for example, player who comes to trade could walk away when thief is trying to rob him, and then trade when thief is on cooldown. Now its impossible to avoid thief for trader, since one thief could terrorize all players comming to same npc trader because of very low cooldown, and its not right for sure.
I agree with Vedaras, stealing timeout should be much longer (at least 3 minutes), not only because it prevents people from doing tasks like trading and talking to NPCs, but especially because right now it's waaay to easy to level up a thief. Farming XP using steal and 1 cap is what I call lame mechanics, not timeouts. Anyway, IMHO stealing should be totally reworked, the penalties, the timeouts, how XP is computed (it's very stupid right now and basicly encourages XP farming using bots), pickpocket perk (which maybe was OK for a single player game but overpowered in MMORPG) and finally some PvE jobs for thieves.
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I agree with both JovankaB and vedaras, steal should have bigger timeout, but on the other hand, you should be more successful while doing so
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1) You don't understand, one guy SMGing you, you both die, other (friend of guy who bursted you) picking up your items.
1a) I killed (EDIT: oh noes, I didn't kill him, guards crit me instantly, so I insta-killed him only to 0 HP) innocent at NCR only once (don't include bombing), but that moron didn't want to answer on my messages, that I want to buy all ammo he have, he didn't even said "Get off" or something, just ignored.
2) You don't need to stay in gruop, you trading with NPC, another bluesuiter comes near, don't doing any actions behind you, so you don't expect him as a thief, and he's not a thief really, he simply going close to Sha Enin and then setting dynamite on 1 second and then Boom, Sha Enin and everyone who was standing near him are dead.
3) No, I don't talk about YOU encounter THEM. I talking about THEY found YOU. Your outdoorsman won't help you.
4) The same as 2th, while you bartering at NCR, everything can happend, you can barter not only at NCR... there're alot towns at California and even more NPC traders than towns.
You completely missed the point. I do not whine over myself but I defend low levels and crafters. I mean you can avoid meeting pvp gangs, eg in RT. Im a loner and some people are too. The game is not so harsh for me, just this recent changes let to massive theft. And yes I can move, but for me NCR is the best town, a lot of people I can talk to unlike others.
Solution: some minus to karma (20?) for even browsing someones stuff in guarded towns. AND COOLDOWN
Yes i'm telling you to move, it's your own dam fault that you are distracted by the merchant, and the thief tries to take advantage off that. It's already incredible hard for thieves to make a living, for once stop whining, and take a higher PE next time.
I have 8 PE as a matter of fact still getting robbed, the thief runs away but 2 others are around. MADNESS? You simply cant trade in NCR
I agree with Vedaras, stealing timeout should be much longer (at least 3 minutes), not only because it prevents people from doing tasks like trading and talking to NPCs, but especially because right now it's waaay to easy to level up a thief. Farming XP using steal and 1 cap is what I call lame mechanics, not timeouts. Anyway, IMHO stealing should be totally reworked, the penalties, the timeouts, how XP is computed (it's very stupid right now and basicly encourages XP farming using bots), pickpocket perk (which maybe was OK for a single player game but overpowered in MMORPG) and finally some PvE jobs for thieves.
TOTALLY AGREE
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nah i dont agree with you. If thief would have 5 minutes cooldown for example, player who comes to trade could walk away when thief is trying to rob him, and then trade when thief is on cooldown. Now its impossible to avoid thief for trader, since one thief could terrorize all players comming to same npc trader because of very low cooldown, and its not right for sure.
Remember that thief have to check his victim first. Not everyone is wearing pulse rifles at him while trading with npc. Increasing cooldowns will lead only to more boring game. Diversity is what we need. And don't tell me that thieves are overpowered right now. Its all the same as it was, only difference is that the flag is invisible and people are lazy or scared to do the work that guards used to do for them.
Stealing should be nerfed in matter of what you can steal with what skill/perk but not through stupid cooldowns. And you still ignore little fact that problem with thieves is only in NCR since its hearth of the south but thieves can't steal anywhere else, they can be easily recognized and shot + they can't steal forever.
I think what we need is some kind of thief check for players. Now people are afraid to shoot at thieves and they can be 100% sure only when the guards yell that someone is being robbed but even then thief walks away unhurt in 7 out of 10 cases. But if people could somehow "push/punch/slap/something" everyone for some really low 1-2 or non dmg to see if they are thieves or not then it could help.
I mean I see someone with stealing animation. I'm not sure if the guy is a thief so I will use "push/slap/something" on him. If he is a thief (flagged) guards will not react but if he is innocent guy (not flagged) then guards will warn me not to do that again. This way people could check if they are free to shoot or not. But this is kinda not needed for people who keep their eyes open but it would certainly make robbing people way more dangerous then it is now. Also I find this kinda huge boost and it might lead to extinction of thievery and thats also something that should not happen. Simply balance is needed and now one side nerf will deliver it in this case.
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Remember that thief have to check his victim first. Not everyone is wearing pulse rifles at him while trading with npc. Increasing cooldowns will lead only to more boring game. Diversity is what we need. And don't tell me that thieves are overpowered right now. Its all the same as it was, only difference is that the flag is invisible and people are lazy or scared to do the work that guards used to do for them.
Stealing should be nerfed in matter of what you can steal with what skill/perk but not through stupid cooldowns. And you still ignore little fact that problem with thieves is only in NCR since its hearth of the south but thieves can't steal anywhere else, they can be easily recognized and shot + they can't steal forever.
I think what we need is some kind of thief check for players. Now people are afraid to shoot at thieves and they can be 100% sure only when the guards yell that someone is being robbed but even then thief walks away unhurt in 7 out of 10 cases. But if people could somehow "push/punch/slap/something" everyone for some really low 1-2 or non dmg to see if they are thieves or not then it could help.
I mean I see someone with stealing animation. I'm not sure if the guy is a thief so I will use "push/slap/something" on him. If he is a thief (flagged) guards will not react but if he is innocent guy (not flagged) then guards will warn me not to do that again. This way people could check if they are free to shoot or not. But this is kinda not needed for people who keep their eyes open but it would certainly make robbing people way more dangerous then it is now. Also I find this kinda huge boost and it might lead to extinction of thievery and thats also something that should not happen. Simply balance is needed and now one side nerf will deliver it in this case.
Wouldnt it be easier to have a visual (red) flag over the name? It would be fair, I mean in real life if 4 people (guards) shout that hes a thief, everyone should know it, but the message above guards doesnt appear in the chat so making it really easy also with low cooldown as it is now
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Don't ring up real life "argument" into this. This is online game not reality so people stop using that... really.
And visible flags = to 0 thievery. It could be introduced but again there should be some countermeasure for thieves how to hide that flag even when they are flagged and still steal etc. Again no one side nerf will solve this situation. ::)
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i'd say that ir should stay as it is, itäs hard enough for a loner thief to make a living, there's no need to wipe em out even further...
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Remember that thief have to check his victim first.
yeah but i mean, you "check one" and he is shouting "this man is a thief" there should be some time needed to pass so that others could forget you are thief. Now stealing is good its very easy to steal if you have good skill and pickpocket perk. But its also easy to abuse, since you can stand near one bartender and steal from everyone who comes to trade (since they need to scroll items and time needs to pass, you will 100% have your chance on person you need to check). This is not right, i am for bigger cooldown. Since its quite easy to rob someone if you are skilled, it should be like a try of real life luck. "oh i was not lucky, he had nothing" so in result of being unlucky i will have to wait 5 minutes or something, and "this is my day, i took lsw from that sucker, will go to put in to tent and then try again", sounds fair to me :>
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personally, i'd for a thief, i'd go with these boosts/weak points.
1: a thief does not show a "use" animation unless he gets caught stealing.
2: a thief if caught has his name turn black for 10-20 seconds.
3: the amount of skill needed to steal a item is based on its weight, meaning caps and small amounts of ammo could go missing more easily, where as a minigun could never be stolen.
4: a thief has a chance to be caught just looking in some ones pockets, so if anyone tries to just look in a big combat armor wearing guys pockets they could get shot for it. but any real thief could do it fine still.
the first suggestion has one useful thing about it that i like more than the others, for the simple reason that if people don't know they're being robbed they don't get mad, so while this might not be so nice for people at first, a person standing behind you is pretty fairly easy to spot, and unless caught you won't even know who did it unless you really look.
as it stands trying to pick pocket some one without stealth on is almost like walking up to them and punching them in the face its so offensive, not to mention the point of being a good thief is that no one knows who's stealing.
sure its bad for me as a crafter. but at least i'd like to not know i'm being robbed if i forget to look, rather than not know who to shoot or not.
cheers.
-Ulrek-
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3: the amount of skill needed to steal a item is based on its weight, meaning caps and small amounts of ammo could go missing more easily, where as a minigun could never be stolen.
Pickpocket
From FOnline: 2238 Wiki
Requirements Level 15, Agility 8, Steal 80
Ranks 1
You are much more adept at stealing than the normal crook. You can steal with the best of them, because with this Perk, you ignore size and facing modifiers when stealing from a person.
Edit: sry i have to read more carefully
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Pickpocket
From FOnline: 2238 Wiki
Requirements Level 15, Agility 8, Steal 80
Ranks 1
You are much more adept at stealing than the normal crook. You can steal with the best of them, because with this Perk, you ignore size and facing modifiers when stealing from a person.
Edit: sry i have to read more carefully
i'd say thats a good example of a perk made for single player, but not multi player.
but still you cannot say i'd be taking something away from the pick pockets to much with the suggestions i mentioned, so what if you cant steal his minigun? you can steal all his ammo a little bit at a time. and not have him know for sure other wise unless caught.
-Ulerk-
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personally, i'd for a thief, i'd go with these boosts/weak points.
1: a thief does not show a "use" animation unless he gets caught stealing.
2: a thief if caught has his name turn black for 10-20 seconds.
3: the amount of skill needed to steal a item is based on its weight, meaning caps and small amounts of ammo could go missing more easily, where as a minigun could never be stolen.
4: a thief has a chance to be caught just looking in some ones pockets, so if anyone tries to just look in a big combat armor wearing guys pockets they could get shot for it. but any real thief could do it fine still.
the first suggestion has one useful thing about it that i like more than the others, for the simple reason that if people don't know they're being robbed they don't get mad, so while this might not be so nice for people at first, a person standing behind you is pretty fairly easy to spot, and unless caught you won't even know who did it unless you really look.
as it stands trying to pick pocket some one without stealth on is almost like walking up to them and punching them in the face its so offensive, not to mention the point of being a good thief is that no one knows who's stealing.
sure its bad for me as a crafter. but at least i'd like to not know i'm being robbed if i forget to look, rather than not know who to shoot or not.
cheers.
-Ulrek-
I agree, but I think the weight modificator works, doesnt it?
1 Anyway, more than weight, there should be a value modifier, I mean, caps weight 0 so you would/are able to steal 100 000 from a pocket and couldnt steal broken minigun worth 1000?
2. Peeking time should be based on thieves skill... meaning that for example steal 40% - 2 seconds , 100% 3 seconds 200% 5 seconds, after that the window would close and/or they would get caught while peeking, that would be fair