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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: avv on April 11, 2010, 04:26:57 pm
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WHINE!
But seriously, what's with the instakill crits? Basically every time I encounter a dude who wants to fight with me he happens to be a super deadly sniper who instakills me. it can't be luck if 4/4 times in 1vs1 it's because of instakill crit. (1st time I didn't take a pic because thought it was just luck)
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8070/roflcrit1.jpg)
(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/132/zomgcri2.jpg)
(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/9859/lmaocritrofl3.jpg)
It can't be because of my stats, I've got 6 luck and endurance so that shouldn't make me especially some sort of crits sponge.
I'd love to pvp, my current char can take few blasts and return fire but if the combat ends in one shot it just lacks the feeling of "exciting fight". Especially when you absolutely cannot tell if the dude you encounter is friendly or not.
Ha, I bet some pvp oriented guys are just rubbing their hands together and smile contentedly while reading this.
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Yeah, combat that's over in one hit doesn't entertain me. Nor am I a big fan of damage multipliers. Personal taste, I guess.
I like J.E. Sawyer's Van Buren combat philosophy though:
I'd like to see fewer damage multipliers, more crippled limbs, more severe penalties to hit the eyes, and crits that ignore a portion of the armor, but never bypass it completely.
I believe that the different called shots should be made more useful overall. Eyes is clearly "the way to go" in the first two Fallout games. It shouldn't just be a "well, duh" choice. Limb crippling should be more common, IMO. Blinding should also have even more dramatic penalties, but the chance to hit the eyes should be reduced even more.
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Yeah, I like this philosophy too.
Anyway that happened on me too, but even WORST since I was in PvE. I was easily defeating a Slaver when it scored a critical and *bam!*:
"You have been critically hit in the eyes for 91 damage, blinded, your armor bypassed and you lose your turn" :o
Seriously WTF
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I seem to not have such luck with doing instakill criticals in PvP, though I have only died twice due to instakills in PvP.
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Well, i dont care much about thoes instakills yet, but i agree they are imba and make SG really superior. My friend has killed few epic build BG's with >200hp with a single lucky shot while going mining. While its entertaining, it really makes SG the one and only weapon class right now. Energy is expensive as fuck to compete with it and BG is weak and even more expensive than EW.
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Yeah, combat that's over in one hit doesn't entertain me. Nor am I a big fan of damage multipliers. Personal taste, I guess.
I like J.E. Sawyer's Van Buren combat philosophy though:
I'd like to see fewer damage multipliers, more crippled limbs, more severe penalties to hit the eyes, and crits that ignore a portion of the armor, but never bypass it completely.
I believe that the different called shots should be made more useful overall. Eyes is clearly "the way to go" in the first two Fallout games. It shouldn't just be a "well, duh" choice. Limb crippling should be more common, IMO. Blinding should also have even more dramatic penalties, but the chance to hit the eyes should be reduced even more.
Funny enough, we got it a while ago, because I bugged around so much, until we finally got a higher chance for crippleing limbs, etc. But then, oh well, nobody liked it. It's always either all or nothing--- "I kill my target or I don't like it."
The new uber-eye shots is something I don't like as well, but there will be a change soon...
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What change ? Again ?
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Thrilling !
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Atm head shots instants do check against LUCK or END (dev didnt clarify) however eye shots dont do check - so for eye crit you have 20% chance to die at spot
everyone can tell that this is bad - i would remove the instant kill chance from head and make eye ones do check against Luck or end . If that will fail then total removal of instants will be needed.
Another thing while im not sniper i think bypass is too often atm - dunno but someone that snipes alot would need to clarify the bypass chance here.
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Lexx why didnt u ask big factions for help before the wipe, balance all the weapons ammo armors bg vs eye shoots etc ...
who can do it better than pvp players ? after making leveling new char so difficult u gonna change weapons skills and ways of dealing dmg, dont u think its silly?
someone wasted a few weeks just to find out that the new way of calculating dmg is making his char unplayable?
sneak is another silly thing after the wipe, again i cannot see guys wearing metal armors with miniguns 3 hexes from me ...
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Lexx why didnt u
I have nothing to do with this stuff.
Until a few days ago, I even forgot that the sniper rifle has a special perk, which makes it useless in close range.
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I have nothing to do with this stuff.
Until a few days ago, I even forgot that the sniper rifle has a special perk, which makes it useless in close range.
saying "u" i meant devs or someone who is doing it ...
i heard that vedaras and other quite useless people were testing the new ver before the wipe, does it make sense?
isnt it better to get people who know how to exploit the system, let them play against each other for a week or two and then release it?
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why didnt u ask big factions for help before the wipe, balance all the weapons ammo armors bg vs eye shoots etc ...
who can do it better than pvp players ?
All of you "pro pvp players" are already bringing REALLY much help by posting in endless debates everywhere in the forum, so devs only have to read what is there. Keep it up.
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@ sneak - atm Custom FoV is disabled and i think its like sneaking from behind form any direction
but keep in mind your PER counts , having 6 PE is poor when it comes to detecing sneakers
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i have 12 P and the same shit .. too many bugs here
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i have 12 P and the same shit .. too many bugs here
Maybe start reporting the bugs. So far you reported 0 bugs in the Bugs board.
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12 P as perception ? afaik sharpshoter is not included in steatlth detection .....
and if you have 10 per and have problems with sneak detection you either lie , mix in lag or in fact armor penalty si bugged
with 10 PER the furthest armored person with minigun can sneak up to you is 8 hex (and that assuming they have 330 sneak that i belive they dont)
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there is a lot of players who actually want to help with balansing game, even "pro pvp players" ;o
back to topic.. who is working on this new critical table ?
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can we back to the topic ? this is quite importat becouse game(pvp) is almost unplayable with this critical hits
in next week we will see only 56hex snipers with 12ap and brof
edit: thank you for clearing that shit
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armor penalty doesnt work
Second if you are sure that armor penalty doesnt work go bugs forum and report it (follow the posting rules there) - there is no report about it there.
(its serious bug if those penalties doesnt work - again dominating skill)
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can we back to the topic ? this is quite importat becouse game(pvp) is almost unplayable with this critical hits
I wouldn't say it's unplayable, but I would say the fact that it's the dominant playstyle demonstrates that some attention is needed. If you're not going to make an aimed shot or a point blank burst, there's almost no point in shooting at all.
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Personally I'm happy about it, I can kill people with rocks to the eyes again.
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I dont have any experiance with MMORPG, only with Fonline. But i think, that there are 2 different ways:
1) You can die very quickly, but also you will be very quickly recovered.. (this is not example of fonline)
2) You are very resistent, so you can fight longer (also this is not example of fonline)
In fonline, you can get 90 dmg in one burst and you are ko if you get 2 or 3 bursts.. So, this is the problem.. Imagine situation, where guns will do 1/3 dmg in compartion to current damages. Fights will be longer then. But you will have to edit hp of critters etc..
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I dont have any experiance with MMORPG, only with Fonline. But i think, that there are 2 different ways:
1) You can die very quickly, but also you will be very quickly recovered.. (this is not example of fonline)
2) You are very resistent, so you can fight longer (also this is not example of fonline)
In fonline, you can get 90 dmg in one burst and you are ko if you get 2 or 3 bursts.. So, this is the problem.. Imagine situation, where guns will do 1/3 dmg in compartion to current damages. Fights will be longer then. But you will have to edit hp of critters etc..
I totally disagree with making 1/3 dmg, and that is because you'll hit someone with 9 burst and he'll run away with full metal jacketed torso laughing at you so you lost all your ammunition.
Fonline is third type
3) You can die very quickly, but you must go to mines, craft and heal for hours to regain full battle condition.
If you ask me I don't like it either but ... what can I do?
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I dont have any experiance with MMORPG, only with Fonline. But i think, that there are 2 different ways:
1) You can die very quickly, but also you will be very quickly recovered.. (this is not example of fonline)
2) You are very resistent, so you can fight longer (also this is not example of fonline)
In fonline, you can get 90 dmg in one burst and you are ko if you get 2 or 3 bursts.. So, this is the problem.. Imagine situation, where guns will do 1/3 dmg in compartion to current damages. Fights will be longer then. But you will have to edit hp of critters etc..
There's no quick fix for combat if it's expected to work in entertaining way. But making people more resistant would allow more strategic options because the current way is just to unleash your characters capabilities upon your enemy and see what happens. I personally always carry around few super stimpaks, additional guns and grenades because of their various uses. They are useful in pve, but not in pvp because either me or my enemy dies during first few shots.
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and yet you derail the thead - its not about how fast you die nor how fast you can regen - its about dying in one shot regardless how much hp you have or armor you wear...
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2) You are very resistent, so you can fight longer (also this is not example of fonline)
This is what I'd prefer.
(I think the easiest way to balance PvP and PvE would be to make HP based on EN from level 1, and not have it increase as characters level up only through perks. It's a lot easier to balance weapons and critters when there's a relatively stable HP range to deal with. But it's drastic and pretty unFallouty, and I can't see it catching on.)
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if it would be up to me, i would make special conditions for doing instant kills. For ranged weapons: example 1 Condition: 10 luck, and 2x bonus ranged damage, or 1x bonus ranged damage and living anatomy perks + 2 condition better criticals. If you pass these conditions you get a chance to instant kill. Same for hth just bonus hth damage. Then "instant kill" builds may result in lower hp, resistance or other disadvantages of the players. Now even fuckin ghouls sometimes instant kill with hand! wtf? Instant kill should be available for specifically trained fighters not for every single noob :>
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I saw a mutated mole rat get one shotted by a mantis, seemed pretty strange. So is better crits no longer needed?
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there is a lot of players who actually want to help with balansing game, even "pro pvp players" ;o
back to topic.. who is working on this new critical table ?
There are lots of players who moan about PvP balance, yes. All of them in opposite directions to suit how they want to play.
The critical table is a good example. The table before was pretty much exactly how I think it should've been - but they I did it, so of course I did - then you had many whine threads about how BGs were better than SG and so they were redone.
They worked out as generally a small buff overwhere but the eyes and insta kill was brought back into eye shots.
Cut forward a few weeks and we have the opposite whine.
The above will generally happen no matter what balance changes get done.
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There are lots of players who moan about PvP balance, yes. All of them in opposite directions to suit how they want to play.
The critical table is a good example. The table before was pretty much exactly how I think it should've been - but they I did it, so of course I did - then you had many whine threads about how BGs were better than SG and so they were redone.
They worked out as generally a small buff overwhere but the eyes and insta kill was brought back into eye shots.
criticals before wipe were fine, big gunners are much more expensive then small gunners or energy weapons, so its reasonable to think they should have advantage in fights. (and when i was playing sg sniper before wipe, i couldnt really tell that big gunners had that advantage, all you needed to do for big gunners to see them cry and run away was crippling their arm)
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Don't know why are you complaining about critcals. Specially about SG.
Shit, what about BG instant kills? Hitting you for 300 damage?
Really? Stop crying.
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(I think the easiest way to balance PvP and PvE would be to make HP based on EN from level 1, and not have it increase as characters level up only through perks. It's a lot easier to balance weapons and critters when there's a relatively stable HP range to deal with. But it's drastic and pretty unFallouty, and I can't see it catching on.)
You mean this?
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=2655.msg23397#msg23397
(start read from "Mega suggestion which can be sent to Junk board:", and don't read anything after words: "Will make this game a bit realistic, but...")
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Don't know why are you complaining about critcals. Specially about SG.
Shit, what about BG instant kills? Hitting you for 300 damage?
Really? Stop crying.
big guns are weapons effective only on specific conditions and they are extremely expensive to use. And now every noob with hunting rifle can come and kill dude with ba and lsw, wtf?
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big guns are weapons effective only on specific conditions and they are extremely expensive to use. And now every noob with hunting rifle can come and kill dude with ba and lsw, wtf?
Why hunting rifle? You can do it with Desert Eagle, looks cool and like in movie! +you don't need to waste .223 ammo! And if you die, you can go to mine 1 time and craft the pistol again, then get 8 .44 FMJ and leather jacket from a tent and go again kill someone.
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Thrown rock wins.
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big guns are weapons effective only on specific conditions and they are extremely expensive to use. And now every noob with hunting rifle can come and kill dude with ba and lsw, wtf?
On my point of view, hunt is the sencond weapon for a sniper. And BG what is? bazooka or minigun?
It's your problem if you choose BG and it cost too much for you to loose it.
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On my point of view, hunt is the sencond weapon for a sniper. And BG what is? bazooka or minigun?
It's your problem if you choose BG and it cost too much for you to loose it.
Hunting rifle is cheap as shit weapon in any point of view and still with 40 range, which is enough to instant kill any big gunner. Thats my point. No balance in current situation and balance is all we seek in open beta or am i not right?
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criticals before wipe were fine
Except that we had stacking knockout hits. -25 action points anyone?
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Knockouts don't stack now?
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Hunting rifle is cheap as shit weapon in any point of view and still with 40 range, which is enough to instant kill any big gunner. Thats my point. No balance in current situation.
What do you mean about "big guns are weapons effective only on specific conditions"?
O'Rly?
So do snipers.
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What do you mean about "big guns are weapons effective only on specific conditions"?
O'Rly?
So do snipers.
For big gunner, enemy has to be in very close distance, and have no bluffs like psycho. For sniper, you can instant kill your enemy, or even knock him out, cripple him, in any place any time. (just in close range you will be more vulnerable, but you will be same dangerous)
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Why hunting rifle? You can do it with Desert Eagle, looks cool and like in movie! +you don't need to waste .223 ammo! And if you die, you can go to mine 1 time and craft the pistol again, then get 8 .44 FMJ and leather jacket from a tent and go again kill someone.
Yeah :D I placed today 229-HP hit with a desert eagle (84% deterioration) - not into creature, but the other player. Feel the power!
Solar, the problem is that you nerfed bigguns (decreased their range DECISIVELY, as 5-10hex range is a lot, decreased DMG adjust in AP ammo, made 5mm ammo/rockets/223 ammo more time-consuming to craft) and at the same time, you brought back instakills (which is a shitty idea but I told it long ago)... is that what you call balancing things? Wrong, dude, you'll now receive opposite whine (SG too powerful, BG nerfed) and it's true.
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Knockouts don't stack now?
No confirmation about pvp but critters without better criticals perk only seem to cause about -10 ap and -3 ap knockouts that don't stack. Not sure if -10ap crit can stack over -3ap crit.
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For big gunner, enemy has to be in very close distance, and have no bluffs like psycho. For sniper, you can instant kill your enemy, or even knock him out, cripple him, in any place any time. (just in close range you will be more vulnerable, but you will be same dangerous)
For snipers, enemy has to be far away (40+ hex) to shoot first, less than this, BG probably will throw you on the ground with a bazooka.
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For snipers, enemy has to be far away (40+ hex) to shoot first, less than this, BG probably will throw you on the ground with a bazooka.
so same as i said, you are same dangerous just in close distance you are more vurnerable, but all characters are more vulnerable in close distance so this can hardly be even counted.
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Yeah :D I placed today 229-HP hit with a desert eagle (84% deterioration) - not into creature, but the other player. Feel the power!
Solar, the problem is that you nerfed bigguns (decreased their range DECISIVELY, as 5-10hex range is a lot, decreased DMG adjust in AP ammo, made 5mm ammo/rockets/223 ammo more time-consuming to craft) and at the same time, you brought back instakills (which is a shitty idea but I told it long ago)... is that what you call balancing things? Wrong, dude, you'll now receive opposite whine (SG too powerful, BG nerfed) and it's true.
Hm, it was only -5 range, damage reduction was very minor (simply to make the jhp/ap cross at the right point, 5mm and .223 are much faster to craft now ... and I dislike instakills as much as the next person :P
BG are still fine, eye shots are currently too good. No need to panic.
Also, there should be no change to knockouts stacking.
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you are same dangerous just in close distance
Not true. If you are talking about SGs tha use SMG, p90s could be. But not sniper who has to aim twice.
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Why hunting rifle? You can do it with Desert Eagle, looks cool and like in movie! +you don't need to waste .223 ammo! And if you die, you can go to mine 1 time and craft the pistol again, then get 8 .44 FMJ and leather jacket from a tent and go again kill someone.
this makes perfect sense and make more dynamic into the game. So dont just ignore a wastelander with a DE in his hand
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last critical tablewas quite balanced, add more bypasses and will be perfect, dont know why you guys changed that table
we have to much lotery in pvp now dont mention about 35hex range of avenger ! theoretically is not that much, only 5 hex but in practice, it is really very much
today my team mate(avenger+2xbrd) shooted to one sniper in combat armor, form about 25hex and did him 30 and 55 dmg , after that he got instant kill, wtf ?
and that wasnt a open space! dont want to imagine how that will look in open place 56hex sniper vs bigguner :o
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Well maybe because
(...) BG are still fine, (...)
You make me laugh, Solar. You keep telling all things are fine, when they aren't.
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Not true. If you are talking about SGs tha use SMG, p90s could be. But not sniper who has to aim twice.
man thats how the game should be. Who shoots fast, who shoots better (crippling right limb /knocking out or other shit depending on situation) wins. In other words better player wins. Now instant kills wins not players and that sucks completely. Watch red dot videos, they kill at least triple more people than they lose playing mostly with snipers and their videos are made prewipe. What will be now?
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What will be now?
if they making team with only snipers.. probably will be no fights, 8xsnipers vs mixed team is IMBALANCE
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Well maybe because
You make me laugh, Solar. You keep telling all things are fine, when they aren't.
Odd, I remember saying
eye shots are currently too good
Having said that, just looking at the stats its not as sniper-centric as I imagined it would be. Eye shots are still too good in my opinion though :P
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In your opinion ?
Sorry but i must ask. How much time you have to play this game in unguarded cities ?
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I think it would be better (and more interesting) if eye shots were 2 times harder, and generally used as the shot of last resort (-120% instead of -60% to hit for example)
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Having said that, just looking at the stats its not as sniper-centric as I imagined it would be. Eye shots are still too good in my opinion though :P
What's the damage multiplier for eyes and head compared to the arms and legs, out of curiosity?
And I think that if you make any aimed shot reliably do more damage, that's the one people are always going to pick.
Way I see it, eyes should be a bigger gamble. There's a much lower chance you'll get a good crit, but when you do you blow his head off. Legs and torso are more reliable, but less damage potential.
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I think it would be better (and more interesting) if eye shots were 2 times harder, and generally used as the shot of last resort (-120% instead of -60% to hit for example)
that wouldnt work, still ghoul with 1 melee damage would have a possibility to instant kill you, that doesnt look very well.
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In your opinion ?
Sorry but i must ask. How much time you have to play this game in unguarded cities ?
I suppose in some sense I've just seen all TC from the last week ;)
What's the damage multiplier for eyes and head compared to the arms and legs, out of curiosity?
And I think that if you make any aimed shot reliably do more damage, that's the one people are always going to pick.
Way I see it, eyes should be a bigger gamble. There's a much lower chance you'll get a good crit, but when you do you blow his head off. Legs and torso are more reliable, but less damage potential.
All those things are identical to f2 tables, pretty sure they're on the vault somewhere.
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http://falloutmods.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_hit_tables ?
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Eyeshots take like 7 ap, you make it even harder to do all that will happen is people will have more skills into sg and less in a secondary capacity and it's already pretty even with bursters. 2 bursts take the same ap as one aimed shot more or less and the aimed shot has at most 65% chance to crit then a 1/5 chance to insta kill, while 2 bursts will usually make hotdog meat out of anyone.
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http://falloutmods.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_hit_tables ?
Wow, is this the one we're using? x3 is the minimum damage multiplier on a critical hit? Up to x8 damage? Is this definitely correct?
Compare it to vanilla, where the lowest is x1.5, and only the best eyecrits are getting x4 damage.
Damn. Crits are a powerhouse.
Edit: Disregard this, I am an idiot.
Damage multiplier
This is divided by 2, so a value of 3 does 1.5x damage, and 8 does 4x damage.
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http://falloutmods.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_hit_tables ?
your table looks like shit man. Here is right table
damn cant post link for some reason :D
its fallout.wikia.com/wiki/critical_hit just paste this link for official f2 crit hit table
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People are also forgetting that for an eye shot to land your opponent must be facing you.
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that's not even the right table
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fallout wikia crit table is so so but falloutmods is more accurate - but for creatures mostly
the dam multiplayers are right , the resft of effect was change - how - we dont know part the few things that been said here already...
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Ye, uber ghouls with desert eagles don't give a sh1t how much hp you have and armor you wear :)
I was thinking they should've barely hold few kilo's of steel in their rotten hands... :|
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I'd like to see fewer damage multipliers, more crippled limbs, more severe penalties to hit the eyes, and crits that ignore a portion of the armor, but never bypass it completely.
I believe that the different called shots should be made more useful overall. Eyes is clearly "the way to go" in the first two Fallout games. It shouldn't just be a "well, duh" choice. Limb crippling should be more common, IMO. Blinding should also have even more dramatic penalties, but the chance to hit the eyes should be reduced even more.
+1
Tho i dont have a problem with multipliers, as long its not instant kills(like it is now)
I totally disagree with making 1/3 dmg, and that is because you'll hit someone with 9 burst and he'll run away with full metal jacketed torso laughing at you so you lost all your ammunition.
Fonline is third type
3) You can die very quickly, but you must go to mines, craft and heal for hours to regain full battle condition.
If you ask me I don't like it either but ... what can I do?
Thats a different question...Other games have ways to snare/root them easily for a limited time, here you can cripple them permenantly. The first version involves using skills, the other, pure luck.
And weapons are OP, skill should play a crucial role in DMG calculation imo, even tho that imbalances low lvl vs high level players. I support 1/3 dmg for all weapons as long as high skill compensates by a dmg bonus.
I think it would be better (and more interesting) if eye shots were 2 times harder, and generally used as the shot of last resort (-120% instead of -60% to hit for example)
Whoa, not good. INT is OP on its own imo, i...err my character has 3 INT(yeah :( ...but it fun ;D) and its hard enough to raise skills above 100 :-\
High INT should have lesser bonuses for combat skills...
Damn im offtopic again, doh >_<
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What has to be noted when reworking these crit tables and combat in general is that they has to be balanced for everybody, not just for powerbuilds. One main reason why players don't want to pvp is that too great deal of effectiveness lies in character's abilities. If some character has some cha so that he can do some quests and talk to npcs, some outdoorsman so that he can explore the world and a strong back perk so that he can carry more nice loot, it doesn't pay off in combat. So every player has to make decision between luxury and combat effectiveness. This keeps the playerbase divided, pvp oriented guys pick only perks that provide only pvp advantage, those who wish to explore pick luxury perks along with pvp perks.
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Re: What's with the instakill crits?
aqua-needler
It's ok though, bob lived
(http://thumbnails28.imagebam.com/7718/a0f94e77179808.gif) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/a0f94e77179808)
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Looking the crit table i understand now why i always got knockout or down by PKs and have no opportunity to fight back :/