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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Floodnik on April 23, 2013, 07:14:25 pm

Title: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Floodnik on April 23, 2013, 07:14:25 pm

Out of all the whining, lets try to talk reasonably.
First, why is Idling even around?

Quote

Combat Zones and Idlers is a feature implemented to mitigate the problem of fast relogging in PvP.

It's a good feature then IF it doesn't piss off players unnecessarily.

Quoting the appropriate changelog:

Quote

Idling Timer is paused inside real time encounters and inside turn based encounters with opened combat.
Idling Timer increases up to 150 seconds inside tents, bases, quest locations, guarded towns and turn based encounters with closed combat.
(...)
If you don't spend any Action Points during your turn in turn based combat, Idling Timer increases by the amount of seconds of your turn.

I probably know why the safe zones stuff exist(visiting a tent increases Timer etc.) - dual loggers. But the point is you shouldn't introduce features that affect honest players too much if you want to deal with cheaters. This feature just feels like too much pain. You should try to find another ways to deal with dual loggers - fast loggers seem to be dealt with already(so maybe it is possible!)

The suggestion is to either remove the features I mentioned, lower the Idling Timer... or both.

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: avv on April 23, 2013, 08:07:07 pm

But how do those 3 examples hurt honest players?

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Floodnik on April 23, 2013, 08:13:42 pm

I want to visit my tent/base, get my stuff and jump right into action. I can't. I'm not cheating.
- honest PvP player(not exactly me, everyone)

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: greenthumb on April 23, 2013, 08:22:19 pm

Lets say iam honest player:

Iam hunting VC patrol for over 1 hour when TC timer appears on my screen : 15:00 minutes till enemy faction take Redding. Then i go to my VC base grab my gear in a car and start moving to  nearby redding tent. In meantime i start my Mumble window so i can see that 4 more guys just did same. Now we are 5 guys ready to spawn without any Iddling timer, becouse we are honest and we want to play hunest way. We spawn  south deal with some sneak bluesuit, then kill another 4 full gear apes below sherifs.

We like the system and we are not bothering with any usless feature. Thats it.

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Floodnik on April 23, 2013, 08:31:31 pm

Is that so? I wanna hear more opinions. If someone is against the feature please say why.

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Kilgore on April 23, 2013, 09:04:01 pm

We've got like 7 players on TS willing to visit 2238 for action if TC starts. Someone says that the enemy has started the timer in Den, so we go from our base near New Reno by cars. Few didn't have drugs on their chars so they visit the base near Den, while the rest is already on worldmap, getting sucked into encounters like every minute. Already annoying. Ok, all go to worldmap and we prepare to spawn on south.

From 7 guys, only 4 spawn on south because three others were caught into the encounter the moment they were about to enter the town. That's already about 10-20 seconds of being totally vulnerable to any attack because your team is split in half. Ok, now we've got full team, few guys realise that they have IDLER just because they have spent too much time taking drugs inside the base. Fuck it, we attack and succeed, but those guys with IDLER couldn't even properly shoot the enemy. Is that what you wanted?

ofc we could wait on worldmap, getting sucked into more encounters for more annoyance, but you need to understand that timing in TC is very important. If you wait too long, there might be another team on worldmap that got ready to spawn behind you.  Spawning earlier gives you an advantage, but idler crap complicates it.

No duallogging or fastrelogging involved.

That's only for 7 players, imagine preparing any bigger battle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9yH0O7mBd4
This would be impossible to happen.

Not even for swarms, but for individual players also; you want to get somewhere fast and have action, but you can't ! wait for idler. if you stayed in base it slows you for almost 3 minutes, if you stay on worldmap it annoys you by throwing you into encounters, the only option is to farm or stay inside pvp location but what the fuck you could there, in this game?

Broken pvp. When I said in another topic that "if there is no pvp, there are no pvp cheaters also" I wasn't even that serious, but it seems it's just happened. Enjoy ded gaem, hey.

I'm feeling like I'm wasting my time here but ok, you wanted an opinion why these bu...features suck, why they are clumsy and annoying, you got it.

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Alvarez on April 23, 2013, 10:25:36 pm

Fast relog needs another solution than Idling, then.
Any suggestions?

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Floodnik on April 23, 2013, 10:31:47 pm

Wait a second.
As we can see the biggest issue here is not that you're getting Idling cooldown after logging into the game, the problem is that you get idler cooldown when entering a base/tent/guarded zone, this is what annoys players the most.
Fast relog is solved with the first thing. The second thing doesn't help in this case, it's probably for dealing with dual log.
But it indeed does need another solution. Idling should be... nerfed, not removed entirely. See first post.
I'd also like to hear what @avv and @greenthumb have to say about the situation @Kilgore mentioned. For me it's a huge argument against Idling as it is now... Do you disagree?
It's fine that you want to fight cheaters, it's just that the end should not justify the means... Honest players are affected too much.

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: greenthumb on April 24, 2013, 01:25:05 am

Kilgore is most likely right when he said 60vs60 would not even be possible with iddler, it would be simply too hard to organize, even with 10+ players will automaticaly somebody fall into forced encounter no matter what. Still if you fall into encounter you are able to run out in 5-10s, then you may follow your mates. Yes its problem but i dont think that much significant,so it would make you win or loose the fight, especialy if players are using voice chat. Many times happened even before iddler, that somebody was just late and others had to wait him just becouse he forgot drugs or stims...Iam still not that skilled so i would be able teach lessons most of PVPers here, its my opinion, but i got strange feeling like something else than waiting problem is involved ;P

Also argument you ll get full 150s timer if you stay in base is bad. Becouse its made right this way, so you have to stand or dance on worldmap, trying not to fall in encounter and be prepaired for leader's order to spawn in town. If you refuse it and you ll stay in base, its not any surprise you have idler on you again. Btw you have 20 seconds in base free from timer, so thats enought or nearly enought to grab armor,hlemet, weapons, ammo ,SS or even some drugs from trunk of your car and run back to dance on worldmap again. Not any problem if you got prepaired gear in right place.

@Startion: thanks for offtopic, its nice to see player with an opinion.

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Stration on April 24, 2013, 03:05:23 am

Quote from: greenthumb on April 24, 2013, 01:25:05 am

@Startion: thanks for offtopic, its nice to see player with an opinion.

I don't play FO: 2238 any more, but if you *really* want to hear my opinion so much, here you go.

Idler is obviously a feature that only a complete noob could consider anything other than retarded. Forced encounters during WM idling are no different. In fact, same goes for basically any other major feature that the FO: 2238 dev team have implemented over the past 15 months. The new mining is BS. The new crafting is major BS. The new PvE is a joke. The new trading is complete BS. Everything that used to work either got broken, nerfed, or removed.

Remember the new TC that everyone knew was broken almost the exact moment they tried it for the first time? They only reverted it to the old system when server population went down to 20-30 at all times.

Then there was the retarded extra-high AC cap. They only reverted it back to normal when nobody was willing to donate to the server, and it was either fixing the retarded AC or shutting the server down.

Idler is the next big blunder. They won't remove it until they're up against the wall again. Why? Because they're not interested in making the server better, they're interested in coming up with whatever random BS they can think of and mindlessly implementing it.

FO: 2238 is dead&gone. There are two great new-old servers out there, both in English: TLA mk2 (for those who like PvE/quests/RP), and FO: DE (for those who like PvP). Take your pick, and don't look back.

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Alvarez on April 24, 2013, 06:05:08 am

I think i found a workaround for Idler.
You need a macrorecorder, which lets your char jog around the tent map right outside the city limits.

And this is ridicolous even for a cheater. And it wont help if your faction SUDDENLY needs your help in TC.

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Mike Crosser on April 24, 2013, 01:34:05 pm

Getting into a encounter while idling on wm is complete bullshit imo.

For those who don't understand:
The idler system was implemented so that pvp players would stop fast relloging every time they died,this  made it unfair for people who didn't have enough time to level up 30 pvp alts.
The system is shit,but it's your fault.You didn't want to stop fast relogging so all the flow of butthurt caused the devs to create a shit relog system.   

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Floodnik on April 24, 2013, 01:48:02 pm

I want to reach at least a compromise here. Maybe stretching the immunity time would be SOME solution? Bases can be huge and stuff hard to get quickly sometimes. Maybe a heuristic that checks if the player is actually active in the safe zone? Please, do something. Why should we be punished so hard for the fact we want to gear up? Why doesn't a developer say what he/she thinks?

About being forced into enconuters: deserves another topic IMO. Can't fix everything at once.

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: greenthumb on April 24, 2013, 01:58:59 pm

Well compromise sounds good, but it depends on developers as you said.
I would like to see a compromise, smthing like this:

1.Lets stretch 20s free-timer to 25s
2.Lets prepare full gear for 2or3 fights into car trunk before each action :)

(http://i34.tinypic.com/mb2zp3.jpg)

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: avv on April 24, 2013, 03:37:21 pm

Quote from: Floodnik on April 23, 2013, 10:31:47 pm

But it indeed does need another solution. Idling should be... nerfed, not removed entirely. See first post.
I'd also like to hear what @avv and @greenthumb have to say about the situation @Kilgore mentioned. For me it's a huge argument against Idling as it is now... Do you disagree?
It's fine that you want to fight cheaters, it's just that the end should not justify the means... Honest players are affected too much.

When idling on wm you should have an option to "escape inside the town" rather than fall in the encounter. This would fix the problems with encs when you're just about to go in. Personally I have fallen in an encounter during a moment when rest of my team spawns on enemy so it can cause some really shitty situations.
On the other hand, worldmap could be nerfed even more. It's still too safe.
Anyone who says idler needs to go should represent a cheat-proof mechanic that makes fastrelog impossible. Even idler isn't cheat proof, but so far there are only 2 ways to prevent it and both can be looked into.

The real problem however is that being inside locations is strongly discouraged so players prefer worldmap and mostly being logged off because there's nothing to do outside pvp. Game needs content for players so that they want to stay logged in and spend that time in locations that do no increase idling timer so that they wouldn't have to deal with annoying timers all the time.

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Kilgore on April 24, 2013, 05:05:26 pm

Quote from: avv on April 24, 2013, 03:37:21 pm

On the other hand, worldmap could be nerfed even more. It's still too safe.

Are you paid by russian-mafia in order to support russian servers more?

Quote

Anyone who says idler needs to go should represent a cheat-proof mechanic that makes fastrelog impossible. Even idler isn't cheat proof, but so far there are only 2 ways to prevent it and both can be looked into.

Jesus. Shut the server down so there will be no pvp and no evil cheat0rz. Oh wait there is no pvp anyway, no need to shut down the server, fair players are safe.
Or make something like that on player login:

(http://www.hojohnlee.com/weblog/wp-content/ultimate-captcha-riemann-hypothesis-crop.jpg)

I bet there are more or equally extreme ways to deal with fast relog or dual log. The question is: will anyone bother?

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: avv on April 24, 2013, 06:20:29 pm

I believe it serves the benefit of russian mafia equally well that players spend their time on woldmap than offgame.

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Floodnik on April 24, 2013, 06:28:46 pm

I think we're going a little offtopic here :) If I wanted to make players spend less time on world map I'd boost the WM speed. Wouldn't call that a nerf, though. :P

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: JovankaB on April 26, 2013, 08:12:18 pm

There are some small improvements possible, but nothing spectacular.
There is no anti-cheat / anti-abuse measures that wouldn't cause at least
a little pain for honest people. It's like with healing drugs - they heal but
every real drug also has side effects. It's just a matter of picking the best
solution for our situation.

Our situation is that we can't afford GMs online keeping track of players
all the time and we can't afford some client-side protection that would
be a never ending time consuming arms race against cheaters.

With the points above in mind, if you propose removal of Idler, you need
to propose an alternative that would be as effective against fast relog, with
less side-effects for honest players. If you don't propose anything better,
- and I mean real solution, written down and described in details, then
talking about it is pointless and Idler will stay.

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Mike Crosser on April 26, 2013, 08:17:33 pm

Quote from: JovankaB on April 26, 2013, 08:12:18 pm

Our situation is that we can't afford GMs online keeping track of players
all the time

Is this due to the lack of possible candidates or something else?

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: JovankaB on April 26, 2013, 08:22:47 pm

Dunno, but GM isn't a solution for fast relog anyway.
You have 3 minutes to react (and you must be online monitoring players all the time)
and it's problematic to prove anything to someone who just logged off.

More importantly, it's impossible to tell what is and what isn't "legit" fast relog, because
the timer was removed.

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Floodnik on April 26, 2013, 08:33:23 pm

Thanks for answering. I see we're constantly being dragged to fast relog there, so may I ask, how does receiving an idling penalty through visiting a base help against fast reloggers?
Remember - I don't suggest to remove idling, this:

Quote

small improvements

is what I'm actually looking for in this topic :)

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: JovankaB on April 26, 2013, 08:36:53 pm

If idling timer wouldn't increase in places where you can camp 100% safely, you could keep there a multilogged PvP alt.
I feel like all of this was explained already somewhere in the foum...

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Mike Crosser on April 26, 2013, 08:37:39 pm

Quote from: JovankaB on April 26, 2013, 08:22:47 pm

Dunno, but GM isn't a solution for fast relog anyway.
You have 3 minutes to react (and you must be online monitoring players all the time)
and it's problematic to prove anything to someone who just logged off.

More importantly, it's impossible to tell what is and what isn't "legit" fast relog, because
the timer was removed.

Now this might just be me talking stupid shit from being tired out from a long day but:
How about an Alt limit?Everybody gets 5 characters that they can make and remake.
Suggested millions of times before,i know,but hey it gives some promise.

Yeah wouldn't really help since proxies exist but it would give some delay to it.
Besides by the time a person moves all of his alts to the combat zone the battle will be half way done so FRing wouldn't really pay off.

As for the GMs thing:
Well it would be nice to hire a few more of them,just for events and "lulz".
Just get a few clowns to make crazy shit once every few weeks to keep players interested and always looking forward to something (next month there could be a redo of the old easter event for example).

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Floodnik on April 26, 2013, 09:25:04 pm

Quote from: JovankaB on April 26, 2013, 08:36:53 pm

If idling timer wouldn't increase in places where you can camp 100% safely, you could keep there a multilogged PvP alt.
I feel like all of this was explained already somewhere in the foum...

Yeah, that's what I thought, it's just that you only mentioned fast relogs. I consider fast relogging and dual logging two different issues that should be solved separately.
However you managed to solve both of those issues by introducing one feature - Idling. My idea is to make it a little less painful. What we're talking about here is stuff like increasing the immunity cooldown, so you could deal with dressing your avatar up with more comfort or creating a system that determines if the player is truly idling in the base.

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: BLDYMSS on April 27, 2013, 02:51:53 am

Had an idea to make idler obsolete, at least for TC.
Dunno about FR situations in other combat zones tho..I think the issue is most annoying in TC as the feature gets bashed by players doing TC mostly.
Anyway check it out:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,28975.0.html

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Floodnik on April 28, 2013, 04:56:45 pm

Funny fact:
players found a way to bypass the Idler feature. They moved 90% of PvP to tents. You can't become an Idler here and you can fast relog freely...

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: BLDYMSS on April 28, 2013, 05:15:00 pm

Quote from: Floodnik on April 28, 2013, 04:56:45 pm

Funny fact:
players found a way to bypass the Idler feature. They moved 90% of PvP to tents. You can't become an Idler here and you can fast relog freely...

So now, we got tent control then ;D

Don't wanna give the impression of being another "one alt crusader" like DocAn, but have you checked out my town control suggestion yet?
I'd really appreciate some feedback from some experienced PvPers and/or devs, just wanna know if that could work or not.

Title: Re: Make it so that Idling doesn't hurt so much.
Post by: Vaimortal on April 28, 2013, 05:43:19 pm

I don't see the point of setting mechanics in motion which aren't able to enforce the rules.

Idling is like applying bandages to a deep wound what is bleeding internally merely covering the surface of the real problem.

Remove Idling and allow freely to dual log, don't declare rules which can't be enforced by existing solutions. Then at least honest players won't be discriminated in any way, everything will be a legitimate strategy and there won't be anyone to call a cheater, nor there will be necessity for game masters.

Of course until a proper solution is implemented.

Let's be honest, the game was more alive without Idling, there was the upside of alts that fights were longer and more interesting.