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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Nice_Boat on April 19, 2013, 07:35:49 am

Title: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Nice_Boat on April 19, 2013, 07:35:49 am
Most of the suggestions on this board are related to specific features players want to see implemented inside the game. This one is different. It has to do with you people getting over yourselves and turning this game into something that's actually good. No more ded gaem.

1. Start making out with the community. If you're getting a slightly sexual vibe from that phrase, that's what I'm asking you to do. Start loving the PvP gangs. Don't spawn items, just talk to them - you'll be surprised how much those guys have to tell you.

2. Once you've done that, establish a devteam-community platform. You've been crying for a year or so about the lack of brainpower when it comes to developing the economy and PvP content and the lack of player input - make it happen. Allow the players to elect their officials, get them in contact with the devteam. Observe, start giving a fuck - and good shit will ensue.

3. Learn to appreciate player-created content. What is player-created content? It's the North Alliance vs Dark Alliance. It's the Cajuns. It's the VBS. It's the HAWKS. It's the Red Dot Alliance. And yes, it's the BBS. Players have been pulling other players into this game to pull them into their wars, it was awesome because while the pixels dying were on the internet the emotions were real - appreciate that, start some dialogue to make more of the same happen in the future. Create gang-specific content, an annual PvP tournament where the apes can inflate their egos in Mortal Kombat against other apes is an amazing place to start.

4. Let the crowd see the blood. I mean, everyone knows you fucked up, make it up with the community you pissed off by providing it with a few months of underground UFC-tier gladiatorial action where contestants win or die. Or better yet, find a scapegoat inside the devteam, put the whole blame on him/her and fire the asshole. Don't worry, you can pull the asshole back in in a few months once the situation is under control, just show us that you care.

5. Turn the ded gaem into a somewhat easy game. Or at the very least easygoing game. Full loot is hardcore enough to keep this game post-apo, focus on enabling people to get into PvP once they learn the ropes when it comes to the easy stuff. Make it a full-time job, not a one-time effort. It's more important than your weapon balance input, especially since you don't use those weapons to begin with.

6. Read those fucking "playing-to-win" essays from the fighting game community. Stop nerfing shit. Appreciate the fact that imbalanced PvP features create amazing and complex tactical solutions, stop knee-jerk nerfing the game into oblivion.

7. Get a fucking economist. Not a Solar, because that was a joke. I'm talking about a real dude with real education when it comes to free-market stuff. You're obviously clueless, so this will help. If you can't get an economist, get someone who enjoys reading about economy and likes games. I don't know. Get some help, for fucks sake.

8. Stop acting as if the community was hostile. We love you. If we don't, start acting as if we did - and we'll start loving you back on our own. Karma is a bitch, you've been acting as if we were your enemies the whole time, don't bring this shit back. What this means is that when you talk with other devs, you don't say "today X was an annoying fuck", you say "today Y was awesome".

So yeah. No specific game-related suggestions. Just some mindset stuff a monster amount of people would appreciate. Show us you can and show us you're more than a good-for-nothing crew that turned a flourishing server into a wasteland (the puns, they are weak today, sorry - at least I tried). Make this game into something amazing - it doesn't have to be amazing today, just show us that you care and you try.

And remember one thing. Nessies don't create the good stuff. They don't make wars that keep people on their toes and logging in when they're supposed to sleep. Nessies are the bread and butter, you should aim for the marmalade.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Wichura on April 19, 2013, 08:13:01 am
That's a lot of useful info for every upcoming/being under development FOnline project.

Will it influence 2238 in any way? I guess it won't.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Mike Crosser on April 19, 2013, 09:47:43 am
just talk to them - you'll be surprised how much those guys have to tell you.

Most of it makes sense but this one made me laugh.
I can already see the /s messages.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Alvarez on April 19, 2013, 11:29:10 am
AFAIR, the devs are making 2238 not for players, but for themselves and we're allowed to participate in this open beta.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Nice_Boat on April 19, 2013, 11:44:48 am
AFAIR, the devs are making 2238 not for players, but for themselves and we're allowed to participate in this open beta.

I'm honored. The argument still stands.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: avv on April 19, 2013, 12:18:20 pm
Quote
4. Let the crowd see the blood. I mean, everyone knows you fucked up, make it up with the community you pissed off by providing it with a few months of underground UFC-tier gladiatorial action where contestants win or die. Or better yet, find a scapegoat inside the devteam, put the whole blame on him/her and fire the asshole. Don't worry, you can pull the asshole back in in a few months once the situation is under control, just show us that you care.

But who exactly broke and what? Besides Rotators are like any team of people. They care more about their own than the unknown people around them. As pvp gangster ape you should know this.

But furthermore, fonline has been the same game over the years more or less. Only real changes have been made around how to get stuff and how this stuff works. But it has always followed the same mechanic that hasn't been touched:
Right after wipe there's a race when pros need to gear up to do action so that they can scout and attack players inside unsafe locations. They keep jumping on players until locations are empty and the pros are so pro that they don't risk themselves unless due to charity. Only noobs and farmers visit unsafe locations and soon they learn not to do this. Slowly unsafe locations become empty and pros find no reasons to enter them. This has been since forever. Only that in the past we had more nuubs to accidentally hang around in unsafe places.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Nice_Boat on April 19, 2013, 04:03:02 pm
But who exactly broke and what? Besides Rotators are like any team of people. They care more about their own than the unknown people around them. As pvp gangster ape you should know this.

Sometimes it's necessary to make a sacrifice. The fact that people want this is just an observation, I don't even care that much. Others would. I think it's an amazing PR stunt for them to pull.

But furthermore, fonline has been the same game over the years more or less. Only real changes have been made around how to get stuff and how this stuff works. But it has always followed the same mechanic that hasn't been touched:
Right after wipe there's a race when pros need to gear up to do action so that they can scout and attack players inside unsafe locations. They keep jumping on players until locations are empty and the pros are so pro that they don't risk themselves unless due to charity. Only noobs and farmers visit unsafe locations and soon they learn not to do this. Slowly unsafe locations become empty and pros find no reasons to enter them. This has been since forever. Only that in the past we had more nuubs to accidentally hang around in unsafe places.

Would soccer remain the same after replacing the ball with a medicine ball? Probably some avv would say nothing's changed. Would people play it? Nope.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Wipe on April 19, 2013, 09:32:50 pm
Gee, Crap Boat, you are more awesome than you ever was before. Congrats.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Mike Crosser on April 19, 2013, 09:37:06 pm

 find a scapegoat inside the devteam, put the whole blame on him/her and fire the asshole. Don't worry, you can pull the asshole back in in a few months once the situation is under control, just show us that you care.

Isn't that sorta what Jovanka is?
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Nice_Boat on April 19, 2013, 10:01:34 pm
Gee, Crap Boat, you are more awesome than you ever was before. Congrats.

Gee, a dev acting like an autistic pleb, that's so refreshing and exciting. I'm certain you're going to get past the 60-player milestone by being this edgy Samira... oh wait, you're not and that's why you're so buttfurstrated and analpained all the time, barking at people who want to help you.

Seriously, are you so retarded that you respond with insults to what's objectively constructive input done in good faith? If you aren't drunk and that wasn't a simple mishap, the fact that a person like you has anything to say here is downright depressing. You're a dev and you're acting like a 10-yo kid pulling off his first troll, you really should see a shrink instead of bringing your issues here.

I mean you probably wanted to hurt my feelings, but it's really hard to take offense when your English obviously sucks to the point of being unintelligible and what was supposed to be a bitchslap turns out being some hilarious ungrammatical blabber worthy of a low-intelligence Fallout 2 character.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Wipe on April 19, 2013, 10:15:26 pm
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Rain on April 19, 2013, 10:27:45 pm
I love you nice boat.Please make this guy GM,DEV,whatever,just make him something.I am honoured to play/have played in the same server of such a person.Please forgive him,he is in a position of power.People in position of power often act like stupids.Just keep up and don't give up.Dev team should be open,developers should be eligible.This game is ours too,regardless of what they think.I m not talking about cash for running server,i m talking about blood split on battlegrounds,i m talking about deep feelings,emotion.That is ours,and nobody deserves to minimize it.A country does not belongs to his governor,it belongs to his cityzens.Fonline as a democracy would have incredible possibilities.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Alvarez on April 19, 2013, 10:34:17 pm
Fonline as a democracy would have incredible possibilities.

I'm not so sure about that.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Nice_Boat on April 19, 2013, 10:42:22 pm
Complete democracy would result in PvP gangs waging their wars with nerfs and buffs, which would be extremely detrimental to the game. We've had our share of such meta- bullshit and it really wasn't pretty. That doesn't mean that getting a group of player representatives together and making them start talking with the devs isn't a good idea, but the problem is it's hard to talk with a person who reacts to perceived criticism by throwing a bitch fit and doesn't understand what "obviously" means.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: DeputyDope on April 19, 2013, 10:49:13 pm
Gee, a dev acting like an autistic pleb,

easy there, you might be banned! :-X :-X
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Nice_Boat on April 19, 2013, 11:02:11 pm
easy there, you might be banned! :-X :-X

It is what it is, in all honesty she should be ashamed of herself because if a standard user was acting like she acts the banhammer would smash his head in an instant. I mean she's like the Uve Boll of the indie gaming community, it's weird that nobody from the devteam told her to shut up before she embarasses the whole project even further ::)

I mean come on, it's a game that had extensive media coverage and a dev is smack talking the players around the clock with broken English... it's simply brow-raising. And it's some truly awful PR for a game that is devastated by player shortages. I'm actually curious how many people has she managed to scare away with this kind of behaviour, it's almost as if her ultimate hidden goal was to make feminists look stupid for demanding equal rights when it comes to jobs that require leadership skills and emotion control.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: DeputyDope on April 19, 2013, 11:05:53 pm
It is what it is, in all honesty she should be ashamed of herself

in all honesty, i hope it's just friday night + a lot of alcohol, although i doubt it.

jokes aside you made some good points but it's as useful as talking to rocks.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Alvarez on April 19, 2013, 11:16:09 pm
Developers hardened up against players. It is just a consequence.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: DeputyDope on April 19, 2013, 11:25:46 pm
Developers hardened up against players. It is just a consequence.

consequence of what?
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Rain on April 20, 2013, 02:35:46 am
I'm not so sure about that.
An arystocracy,fixed-A government of the best.Oldfags in every field pick up decision throu an assembly.That might work.

One thing i don't get,why there is always someone that defends devs team regardless of the situation.Other people that don't understand what *obviously* means.They have acted really,really bad,and that seem obvious.Or someone dares to say that three years ago Dev team used to act the same..?I am afraid Boat wasted his time.


Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Wichura on April 20, 2013, 08:11:39 am
Hold on, aren't we all hating Jovanka this month? Haters gonna schedule the hate or else chaos will spread.

Fonline as a democracy would have incredible possibilities.
Democracy is one of the worst ideas to rule anything, even some indie computer game.

PvP gangs
These are just some weaklings, core of this game are NCR idlers and nessies, hiding in their caves. Only they seem to be still on the 2238 server, semper fidelis.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Alvarez on April 20, 2013, 08:30:57 am
consequence of what?

Consequence of attacking the developers, as if they were some kind of evil dictators and not a bunch of people who just enjoy to code.
 
An arystocracy,fixed-A government of the best.Oldfags in every field pick up decision throu an assembly.That might work.

This meritocratic society will have to be able to code and script. And in the end, they become the boo-men of the next generation of whiners. Its inevitable.

Quote from: Rain link=topic=28909.msg250752#msg250752
One thing i don't get,why there is always someone that defends devs team regardless of the situation.Other people that don't understand what *obviously* means.They have acted really,really bad,and that seem obvious.Or someone dares to say that three years ago Dev team used to act the same..?I am afraid Boat wasted his time.

I defend them because they are the people bringing updates, not NiceBoat. And if you hate the game, why do you keep playing here and whining? Go on TLA instead. Bunch of revolutionaries, all of you, my ass.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Nice_Boat on April 20, 2013, 12:47:50 pm
Consequence of attacking the developers, as if they were some kind of evil dictators and not a bunch of people who just enjoy to code.
(...)
This meritocratic society will have to be able to code and script. And in the end, they become the boo-men of the next generation of whiners. Its inevitable.
Right, just like id software was infinitely flamed for releasing Quake, Blizzard is universally hated for WoW, Diablo 2 and Brood War, that dude from Turkey and his wife were abused for bringing us Mount and Blade etc. Not indie, you say? How about Slender, DayZ, Advanced Combat Environment, Counter-Strike or even TLA mk2? The notion that the players are always against the devs and that constant whine and hate are inevitable is nothing more than a lie that's supposed to cover up the fact that 2238 devs have made their fair share of mistakes... seeing people buy into that is just sad, because it all boils down to avoiding the problems instead of working to overcome them. Just look at this thread - it's as if Samira wasn't able to distinguish between criticizing the game and criticizing herself as a human being. She makes it personal, gets all defensive and in the end nothing gets done because she isn't able to admit there's a problem and the new updates she most probably worked on are to blame. Nobody denies she's a good scriptwriter, but it takes more than that to build a good game. Features that are bad from a design standpoint won't become good even when implemented by an expert coder.

I defend them because they are the people bringing updates, not NiceBoat. And if you hate the game, why do you keep playing here and whining? Go on TLA instead. Bunch of revolutionaries, all of you, my ass.
Most people don't like those updates and strongly feel like bringing back the old 2238 with a few improvements would be the right way to go. We also loved the game back when it was playable, even with its share of problems and we would love to see it getting back on track. How is this so hard to understand? How does being passionate about a game we helped build and balance with years of attendance and player content creation make us a bunch of whiners? Actually it's pretty understandable that people get upset, I mean the new 2238 is nothing like 2238 from 2010 and people might feel cheated out of their favorite server, especially since it's still called 2238 and not Jovanka's Hipster Adventure.

And in all honesty, I think more entertaining content was created by gang members than the new breed of devs - most of whom we remember as NCR idlers back when they were playing, which doesn't really make them any more respectable. The last war against SoT increased the number of people logging it and playing the game, while the last few updates pushed plenty of people away. Right now the core of the server population are the nessies, who by definition don't create anything for other players because their way of playing boils down to avoiding player interaction whenever possible, even if they play with a small group of friends or something like that.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: dskpnk on April 20, 2013, 06:03:41 pm
problem is i played for 4 years 2238, an the game is always the same, ok things sounds good now (i think rly few things need to be reworked) but we need new things, i try TLA, it's like a DLC for fonline came, higher lvl cap, and higher stuff, great feature (radar/auction/private farm locations etc etc...)

just bring new content, for that just read it :

http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,28804.0.html
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Roachor on April 20, 2013, 06:17:39 pm
Jovanka wasn't the problem she was a symptom of it. Fonline has long suffered from GM's with terrible ideas (lexx, surf, jov) that get listened to purely because they are in the "inner circle" despite these people not know the first thing about successful game design. The rotators themselves are so divorced from the community they could be dead for a year before anyone found out. All the good suggestions get crapped on and the terrible suggestions get listened to. This is why after years the game has less content than animal crossing and honestly should just be aborted so they don't inflict poor randoms looking for a cool f2 mmo with this shit before they find out about the other servers. Jovanka's borderline trolling "changes to the game" is just what happens when the smart people don't give a shit and hand the game over to whatever no-life is dumb enough to work for free for years on a terrible project.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Surf on April 20, 2013, 07:35:51 pm
Jovanka wasn't the problem she was a symptom of it. Fonline has long suffered from GM's with terrible ideas (lexx, surf, jov) that get listened to purely because they are in the "inner circle" despite these people not know the first thing about successful game design. The rotators themselves are so divorced from the community they could be dead for a year before anyone found out. All the good suggestions get crapped on and the terrible suggestions get listened to. This is why after years the game has less content than animal crossing and honestly should just be aborted so they don't inflict poor randoms looking for a cool f2 mmo with this shit before they find out about the other servers. Jovanka's borderline trolling "changes to the game" is just what happens when the smart people don't give a shit and hand the game over to whatever no-life is dumb enough to work for free for years on a terrible project.

It's funny you mention me, because I have never had a say on any new feautures etc. neither did I want to. If two new music tracks and some minor dialogues are "ruining" the game for you, then yes, I am guilty of it. Even funnier that you mention Lexx, since he was always part of the core dev team from the very beginning.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Wire on April 21, 2013, 12:29:17 am
Is it time for Satan's great Spring Ball again?
In any case, I guess since it's Captain Obvious thread, I could add some obvious stuff myself as well.
Nice_Boat! I see what you're saying, but, apart from number 4 (which is quite a shit thing to do and to write/say, and I'll get to it later) and number 8 (which has a "little" dent, as in, it's not if. People were hostile. The reason why however is not topic of discussion here), the things you wrote about are quite apparent (or I hope they are) to many in the team.
The problem obviously is, knowing is not doing. And from personal experience, there is a lot of hesitation(of various sorts) when it comes down to making decisions. Now from just these two sentences you can realize what is wrong.
Aand that's all for me to say on obvious part I guess. And I probably never reply here again unless something cool happens.

I hope I'm not russian this thread into any serious conversation, to make up for that I just gonna go for a ride and write few words of hmm, call it offtopic.
Just so not to write a lot of stuff I'll make this short: HF goes to Wichura, "Really?" look goes to Roachor, Willy Wonka goes to Alvarez
Now the number four. That shit is not cool. Scapegoating is the thing you don't want to do ever, unless you're mental, but then it's your problem. The reasons why are many, from the practical things like people discovering that said scapegoat is back on track to moral ones like such action being simply shit.
But you NB take cake not with this, you take it at failing number 8 yourself. Now, do I have to quote every single bullshit said only here by players or will you wake up yourself? And to prevent further brain rot on this topic of love/hate I have to add that blaming anyone here for this is too late. Devs let the players grow on forum like this, and players grew on this, that is as simple as it gets. You can blame anyone for shit and giggles, but it will not bring you anywhere.
Nevertheless it was hilarious to read when you pulled out gender issues out of the blue and start waving with them here, that doesn't mean you get bonus points for that though. Honestly, I can end it only with rhetorical question of what the fuck is wrong with you?
Kinda bad to finish this on depressing note but fuck me, I can't handle so much love floating in the air here.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Cheesey Dean on April 21, 2013, 03:08:17 am
This thread is further evidence that 2238 as a game is doomed. The guy makes decent suggestions, and the dev COMPLETELY IGNORES them and proceeds to insult him for no clear reason.

Show's over here folks. Move on to TLAMK2 like everyone else is doing, and let the devs brood over "their game, not the player's" as it dies.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: the underground on April 21, 2013, 04:57:20 am
Lol.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: JovankaB on April 21, 2013, 08:05:40 am
Scapegoating to please some angry mob? Disgusting. If you proposed this seriously, then you are a disgusting person, I'm sorry but there is no lighter way to put this. Even suggesting that anyone in the team would spend a second considering your proposal is an insult to those people. I would never want to work with anyone who thinks this way, and I must say I consider myself lucky that there are people in the team with more common sense than me. Otherwise maybe there would be such person around.

On another note, I'm sorry but for the most part you don't know shit how the game is developed, who proposes what, who implemented what. Makes you angry? Well, even as GM I had very limited knowledge about it. I think it's bad, at least GMs should know more, but it's the reality. The difference is I didn't flap my mouth spewing some nonsense shit about other people, when I didn't know shit. And I don't do it now either, because it does no good and nobody is perfect, neither am I (especially not me). Only players are perfect, right? This goes to Roachor and a couple other people too.

About player content. All content is appreciated, and there really was some content that required real effort and creativity from players, kudos to people who did that. It also gets some support from GMs if requested, if only it can be done in a fair way. Even SoT did some things, never heard about BBS, but hey - maybe you did. I don't know. But let's make something clear - just pwning other people to boost your ego and get items from box is not any "player content". Neither is making "alliance" because you are unable to pwn a bigger swarm of other players. All it is - it's just playing the friggin' game in the environment that we provided you, nothing more. Null. Don't make yourself a hero, because you play a friggin' game. You are the most effective, good for you. If not you, it will be someone else, as long as there are players around. And I'm not going to kiss anyones feet because they play a free MMO, ever, especially if they talk shit about me. Don't even try to compare it with hundreds (in case of many developers, thousands) of hours of actual *work*. If you don't see a difference between playing and working, even as a hobby - for example writing dialogs is working - in your case I think you should get the difference already.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Nice_Boat on April 21, 2013, 01:23:05 pm
Scapegoating to please some angry mob? Disgusting. If you proposed this seriously, then you are a disgusting person, I'm sorry but there is no lighter way to put this. Even suggesting that anyone in the team would spend a second considering your proposal is an insult to those people. I would never want to work with anyone who thinks this way, and I must say I consider myself lucky that there are people in the team with more common sense than me. Otherwise maybe there would be such person around.

Blizzard did it, worked like a charm for Diablo 3. I think you've mistaken stopping to work with a person for a while with a putting a bullet in said person's head... but given how emotional you guys are I probably shouldn't have expected more understanding than from a bunch of 14yo girls.

On another note, I'm sorry but for the most part you don't know shit how the game is developed, who proposes what, who implemented what. Makes you angry? Well, even as GM I had very limited knowledge about it. I think it's bad, at least GMs should know more, but it's the reality. The difference is I didn't flap my mouth spewing some nonsense shit about other people, when I didn't know shit. And I don't do it now either, because it does no good and nobody is perfect, neither am I (especially not me). Only players are perfect, right? This goes to Roachor and a couple other people too.

I've said it once, I'll say it again. I don't care. Actually, nobody cares. People associate most of the bad stuff with you and Wipe, because it fits how you and Wipe are perceived by the community. If you're mad about that, you should do something about it... but I don't think throwing tantrums is going to work, sorry.

About player content. All content is appreciated, and there really was some content that required real effort and creativity from players, kudos to people who did that. It also gets some support from GMs if requested, if only it can be done in a fair way. Even SoT did some things, never heard about BBS, but hey - maybe you did. I don't know. But let's make something clear - just pwning other people to boost your ego and get items from box is not any "player content". Neither is making "alliance" because you are unable to pwn a bigger swarm of other players. All it is - it's just playing the friggin' game in the environment that we provided you, nothing more. Null. Don't make yourself a hero, because you play a friggin' game. You are the most effective, good for you. If not you, it will be someone else, as long as there are players around. And I'm not going to kiss anyones feet because they play a free MMO, ever, especially if they talk shit about me. Don't even try to compare it with hundreds (in case of many developers, thousands) of hours of actual *work*. If you don't see a difference between playing and working, even as a hobby - for example writing dialogs is working - in your case I think you should get the difference already.

That's just laughable because in your case working is playing ("get lost, it's free, we do what we want because we like it"... and suddenly you're as serious about this game as a Japanese salary man?) and in the case of many players playing was working because fuck me if farming superstimpacks on BoS was any fun. The thing is that "pwning people" and engaging in faction politics is content. It's like a quest for other players and it proved to be more engaging than all of the predetermined stuff you've managed to implement since 2010 or even earlier.

I've never seen it from that perspective either, but it's one of the things that I've learned when I started playing EVE Online. It's a similar game when it comes to basic principles: full loot, hardcore gameplay, sandbox with little-to-none dev intervention, but it's flourishing because the devs and the players are actively supporting community-related ways of playing the game. It's the nessies who get bashed by the devs and the community for their failure to provide other players with some form of interaction and for using up server resources, not players who actually engage in a social network and create situations that force other players to respond with their actions. If you still have to ask yourself which approach is right, check out last week's Wasteland News. Oh wait, it's been out of business for months and somebody actually made a thread about being bombed in the NCR, because that's what counts as big deal around here right now.

The kind of attitude that's apparent in your post destroyed the social network people have been building (against all odds, I might add) for years. No more serious gangs, no more politics, no more content, no more recruitment, ded gaem. And no, people aren't going to replace us because there's no incentive to start playing like that anymore - it's just a casual Mad Max fantasy that gets boring once you can farm your own items with some degree of efficiency.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Kilgore on April 21, 2013, 01:27:22 pm
I've read the first post two or three times to see if there is anything offensive there. I failed to find it, except Solar being a joke as an economist.. well, Solar wasn't too bad anyway, I regret he's missing for some time, as he was probably the last remaining link between players and the devteam. Well, so there is nothing offensive in his post, yet all answers he receives is "you crap boat! you are disgusting". The fuck is wrong with you?

If after four years players don't know SHIT about how the game is developed, it's your own fault and I cannot understand how you couldn't notice it. To us little players, it looks like:

There was actually a short time in 2010 when developers have established a contact (rotfl) with the community - and implemented town control exactly as players wanted. Too bad it wasn't followed by some quick bugfixes for exploits that have been found shortly, but it was still a viable solution for many, many months and big wars where sometimes more than 100 players took part in a single battle. Of course I don't expect you, jovanka, to like it, because to me you are just an NCR idler that was allowed to meddle with the game until those evil pwners boosting their egos find their way outta 2238. Just like an incurable cancer. But hey, it was once a faction mod and no one has ever stated that it's not going to be a faction mod anymore.

In fact, ever since 2009, no one has stated anything about what this game is going to be, but it's fine to emphasize the fact that players know SHIT about how the game is made so they should finally SHUT UP and keep playing or kkthxbye.

And yeah, we really appreciate hundreds of actual *work* that eventually led to the exodus of like 1/2 the _remaining_ playerbase which made the game unplayable for everyone except those playing single player FOnline: 2238. Maybe you see it as progress, but sorry, player counter is merciless - dozens or even hundreds? of players aren't more wrong than you.

Btw if your hobby does hurt you, pass it to those who enjoy it. No one is irreplaceable, they say. It's difficult to understand  why don't you just leave it to those who will bother - maybe this:
Quote
The problem obviously is, knowing is not doing. And from personal experience, there is a lot of hesitation(of various sorts) when it comes down to making decisions. Now from just these two sentences you can realize what is wrong.
is a source of all problems?
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: JovankaB on April 21, 2013, 03:07:27 pm
Quote
Btw if your hobby does hurt you, pass it to those who enjoy it.

Sigh... primitive straw man argument.
I never said that it hurts me, but maybe - just maybe - it (butt-) hurts you?

But me... not at all. I enjoy developing 2238. Don't you worry about it, it's great fun. I learned, and
I can still learn a lot (which I enjoy), the people I can work with are absolutely amazing. I must say
I'm grateful for that opportunity. I enjoyed doing GM stuff, and compared to that, developing is 10
times better. It's like moving from a car to a spaceship. I can put many of my ideas directly in the
game, like I did with the new mining or the smart cursor recently. I fixed many bugs that were the
most annoying for me as a player, for example the fact that you could drive to WM in a car without
fuel, or colorizing in the Hinkley, or wrong aiming % with keybinds and dozens of others. It's amazing.

I'm convinced that I made the game better in some fields, and I didn't make it worse in any. Seriously.
I would be worried if negative feedback was some rational feedback, but honestly, it's just barking.

Getting (mostly positive, but I appreciate criticism if it holds any water) rational feedback is great.
Reading irrational bullshit and pure nonsense hate on the forum from a bunch of loudmouths is a small
price, and... to be honest I can simply choose not to read it, but somehow I just can't help myself.
Maybe in the end I enjoy it as well? :)
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Kilgore on April 21, 2013, 03:26:20 pm
Lots of people *leaving* your game isn't any feedback for ya? Jesus. It's just fact, not some irrational bullshit. I've been talking with many people on our teamspeak and almost every one of them says the same: 2238 got definitely worse, switching to tlamk2 because it is being developed *better* and it's actually playable. Hardly any of them plays 2238 anymore. On the other side, you have SOT's teamspeak also with many players, maszrum said the same - people aren't satisfied with what you've been doing with 2238. You must be deaf to some people and listening only to your few favorite NCR idlers then.
I know dozens of people that aren't happy with what you are doing... at all. Ofc they are all barking, but as I said earlier: dozens (or even hundreds) of players can't be more wrong than you.

Well, I always knew you're living in your own world, maybe you should sometimes make a contact with...you know... the outside world :P

Hmm, I've got a feeling that I'm just wasting my time here, trying to talk with a concrete wall, sooo... have fun doing your amazing work.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: JovankaB on April 21, 2013, 03:36:22 pm
Well, yes if you claim it's my fault that a bunch of people have more fun in another game, then it's barking. Sorry.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: DeputyDope on April 21, 2013, 03:46:31 pm
Well, yes if you claim it's my fault that a bunch of people have more fun in another game, then it's barking. Sorry.

ok, we'll put it another way - who had the "brilliant" idea or nerfing SS and 5mm stealing? more generally, whose idea is to make everything more of a pain in the ass to get?
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Nice_Boat on April 21, 2013, 03:48:37 pm
Well, yes if you claim it's my fault that a bunch of people have more fun in another game, then it's barking. Sorry.

Ignoring what they say and replacing it with an explanation that doesn't hurt your ego. Convenient.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Kilgore on April 21, 2013, 03:49:53 pm
There is a reason _why_ they have more fun in another game and I tried to explain it to you, but you choose to keep swimming in an ocean of ignorance.

I'll use a picture instead:
(http://oi38.tinypic.com/15wi90n.jpg)

Still barking? You must have been meowing very loudly if so many dogs bark at you, jovanka.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Kilgore on April 21, 2013, 03:50:08 pm
sorry for double post
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Nice_Boat on April 21, 2013, 03:53:05 pm
I'll use a picture instead:

Infographics: protecting wasteland since 2238.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: JovankaB on April 21, 2013, 04:00:33 pm
@DeputyDope

It wasn't me but I support both "nerfs" and I would do them myself if they weren't done by someone else. Turbo-stealing from encounter is just bad as the fastest way to acquire top tier items. It's totally ridiculous activity. It requires special ridiculous alt and is pretty much 100% safe grind. Crafting SS is only slightly slower now than stealing them before the nerf. The are two main differences - you have to visit various public locations where you can meet other players (boo hoo) and you don't need a ridiculous one-purpose exploiter alt, just a character with 100% doctor skill, which is much less pain to make, and it's needed only for the last part. About 5mm crafting. Dude, seriously. It takes one advanced gunpowder and 2 normal metal parts to craft that shit. Resources in the mines don't deplete now. You can craft advanced gunpowder on a normal WB. I could craft thousands of 5mm if I wanted, although I have barely time to play. I don't really get what are you bitching about, except for the fact that you have to visit places where you can meet other players (again: boo hoo) to make those items, which is exactly how it was supposed to be.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: DeputyDope on April 21, 2013, 04:12:10 pm
the reason it's "easier" now to craft 5mm (and other stuff) than before is because half the players left to tlamk2 server and you can't find shit in the wastes with 40 players online and this huge map. and you know why they moved? because you force them to grind and get stuff only one way. that's why. but you'll probably never understand that.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: avv on April 21, 2013, 04:15:26 pm
Quote from: Nice_Boat
Nessies don't offer player interaction

But our interaction is highly competitive. Dedicated individuals are required to organize action and these individuals need to be backed up by trustworthy and reliable "core" team. Nessies don't suddenly become such people and joining some big already existing gang usually doesn't help the situation because they just fill the ranks of swarm and the swarm ends up without enemies. 

It wasn't me but I support both nerfs and I would do them myself if they weren't done by someone else. Stealing from encounter is bad as the fastest way to acquire top tier items. It requires special ridiculous alt and is pretty much 100% safe grinding. Crafting SS is only slightly slower now than stealing them before the nerf. The are two main differences - you have to visit various public locations where you can meet other players (boo hoo) and you don't need a ridiculous one-purpose exploiter alt, just a character with 100% doctor skill, which is much less pain to make.

Stealing had to go, no question about it. Every time I told a new player that best way to get rich and successful was to create a stealer alt, their first reaction was "Wtf".
However switching to stim crafting created some other issues too.
- It requires vc citizen alt to buy biomeds
- Important note: Superstims are needed in pvp. The locations you gather and craft superstims might have chance for forced pvp, but how are we supposed to fight that pvp if we first need superstims? It's bad if only way to get pvp stuff is through pvp. Alternatives are required.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: JovankaB on April 21, 2013, 04:22:16 pm
- It requires vc citizen alt to buy biomeds
You can buy them in San Francisco. Sigh... >_>

Quote
The locations you gather and craft superstims might have chance for forced pvp, but how are we supposed to fight that pvp if we first need superstims? It's bad if only way to get pvp stuff is through pvp. Alternatives are required.

Agreed, but not as fast as getting them from competitive places. The competitive way should be the most profitable, or the whole game turns into dumb as fuck safe turbo-grind + pointless shooter. But it's not like you can't get them in any other way now. If you can't stand the heat of crafting, you can buy SS from other players, there is plenty of offers.

Of course the problem is there is only one effective way to get caps and it requires a special alt. I want to balance gold mining and slaving to make it more or less equally effective (and risky). And I think we need more such activities, involving visiting unsafe places.

Nerfing SS would be another way to solve it. Just by making carrying 20 SS in PvP make little sense.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Nice_Boat on April 21, 2013, 04:28:06 pm
But our interaction is highly competitive. Dedicated individuals are required to organize action and these individuals need to be backed up by trustworthy and reliable "core" team. Nessies don't suddenly become such people and joining some big already existing gang usually doesn't help the situation because they just fill the ranks of swarm and the swarm ends up without enemies. 

That's a good reason for the devs to focus their efforts on enabling all players to participate in social activities instead of tinkering with shit shoveling mechanics, 2532th crafting overhaul, 32524th PvP balance change (that ultimately leads to more imbalance because that's what happens when people who don't PvP try balancing PvP), 124235th mining overhaul and an attempt to redesign the game's trademark take on SPECIAL system that worked amazingly well for three effin' years... the list just goes on and on. How to make this game more social again? See the OP. Instead of promising to do that, I see juvenile attempts at talking smack and JovankaB defending a design choice that's almost universally hated by players who did socialize and that basically caused them to leave the game. This kind of response from the devs is nothing short of amazing, really.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: avv on April 21, 2013, 04:33:35 pm
That's a good reason for the devs to focus their efforts on enabling all players to participate in social activities instead of tinkering with shit shoveling mechanics, 2532th crafting overhaul, 32524th PvP balance change (that ultimately leads to more imbalance because that's what happens when people who don't PvP try balancing PvP), 124235th mining overhaul and an attempt to redesign the game's trademark take on SPECIAL system that worked amazingly well for three effin' years... the list just goes on and on. How to make this game more social again? See the OP.

Okay, listen to community. But who should the devs listen?
I know some guys from big gangs who demand that best stuff needs to be obtained through teamwork or pvp. But nessies will not do that. And how can someone get the best stuff in first place if you need to do pvp to get it and to do pvp you need best stuff.
Nessies themselves suggest insignificant things like new skins. Players are supposed to have the answers for devs, but they aren't provided. You can't just say that "increase player interaction", you have to represent a detailed suggestion without obvious flaws that at least outweights its downsides with its beneficial sides.

Quote
Instead of promising to do that, I see juvenile attempts at talking smack and JovankaB defending a design choice that's almost universally hated by players who did socialize and that basically caused them to leave the game. This kind of response from the devs is nothing short of amazing, really.

If you knew the events in gang scene past few months you'd know better why they left.

Agreed, but not as fast as getting them from unsafe places. The competitive way should be the most profitable, or the whole competition turns into grind + pointless shooter. But it's not like you can't get them in any other way now.

Yes this is good direction. High risk, high rewards as long as the same rewards can be obtained in safer ways too.
Some guy from big gang would demand that stuff should only be obtained through teamwork by pwning some other team. But fact is that if some big team plants its presence in an important location, only way for many people is to wait until they leave. This benefits no-one.

Quote
you can buy SS from other players, there is plenty of offers.

People who sell tons of ss aren't pvp players and they either have gathered their hoards before the nerf or exploited the lack of danger that's caused by lack of players. You see pvp players don't sell ss.

Quote
Nerfing SS would be another way to solve it. Just make carrying 20 SS make little sense.

The thing that makes superstims good item is that without them you can't do pvp. It's like reverse ammo: ammo deals damage, stims heal it. Would you nerf ammo? I think not, so don't nerf superstims.
It sorts out trolls from players because everyone loots superstims always. If you carry something that's worth looting, you can't be called a troll.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: JovankaB on April 21, 2013, 04:43:33 pm
Well about camping craft places, you can craft in various places. Although in case of drugs it still is a bit of pain, because of how those terminals are placed, if we add one or 2 more terminals no gang can camp all of them, especially that merc auto-attack was removed. Who added 2nd terminal? Oh wait, it was me. Bark bark bark.

Ultimately it would be better to modify maps to make it possible to attack campers.

Keep going Nice_Boat, you amuse me greatly. But at least I can discuss with avv and even DeputyDope (at least he tries).
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: avv on April 21, 2013, 04:59:08 pm
Well about camping craft places, you can craft in various places. Although in case of drugs it still is a bit of pain, because of how those terminals are placed, if we add one or 2 more terminals no gang can camp all of them, especially that merc auto-attack was removed. Who added 2nd terminal? Oh wait, it was me. Bark bark bark.

But now you're contradicting with the original plan: "Players need to risk to craft superstims" but then you want to reduce the risk by adding more locations. You see there's no option as "Let's hope I don't get pk'd this time" because players refuse to play along with this sort of settings. This means over-cautious activities like bluesuit scouting.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Nice_Boat on April 21, 2013, 05:03:38 pm
Okay, listen to community. But who should the devs listen?
I know some guys from big gangs who demand that best stuff needs to be obtained through teamwork or pvp. But nessies will not do that. And how can someone get the best stuff in first place if you need to do pvp to get it and to do pvp you need best stuff.
Nessies themselves suggest insignificant things like new skins. Players are supposed to have the answers for devs, but they aren't provided. You can't just say that "increase player interaction", you have to represent a detailed suggestion without obvious flaws that at least outweights its downsides with its beneficial sides.

I think you missed the part about a body of elected players being the platform for discussing those issues. I don't blame you, it's easy to forget what the initial suggestion was after certain devs trolled the hell out of this thread.

If you knew the events in gang scene past few months you'd know better why they left.

I'm currently sitting on my TS with my teammates and I know well what's been going on and why they left. I mean those guys can speak for themselves and they all made their position clear, there really is very little room for interpretation here.

Keep going Nice_Boat, you amuse me greatly. But at least I can discuss with avv and even DeputyDope (at least he tries).

Thread derailed and she's proud of herself. Dev-troll best troll.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: JovankaB on April 21, 2013, 05:09:08 pm
Thread started to make some sense. It derailed indeed.

But now you're contradicting with the original plan: "Players need to risk to craft superstims" but then you want to reduce the risk by adding more locations.

You still risk, even if you go to a location that isn't obviously blocked by 10 apes
with mercenaries. But if your organize 3-4 armed people to mine or craft together,
heck - even 2 people, the risk is much smaller, because you are unlikely to get
bursted in back by some grease gun sneaker or just a lucky loner. Of course there
is some excitement, someone can always come etc. Stealing in encounters is just
grind, grind, grind, done alone with ridiculous one-purpose alts.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Floodnik on April 21, 2013, 05:28:43 pm
Funny, Jovanka, you actually follow one of Boat's suggestions :) (in a way)
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: avv on April 21, 2013, 05:38:27 pm
Thread started to make some sense. It derailed indeed.

You still risk, even if you go to a location that isn't obviously blocked by 10 apes
with mercenaries. But if your organize 3-4 armed people to mine or craft together,
heck - even 2 people, the risk is much smaller, because you are unlikely to get
bursted in back by some grease gun sneaker or just a lucky loner. Of course there
is some excitement, someone can always come etc.

Noobs camp. Pros monitor locations with sneak, hide their numbers and spawn when it suits them.
If the whole feature of unsafe crafting is based on the fact that you either get pk'd or don't it's not very tempting. I don't know what you mean by risking but in my book it means that you have a chance to outmatch whatever might be after you. And in this game players outmatch each other with correct characters and gear, after which skill and strategies can be discussed. So if I need to deal with someone through pvp, it means I've got to prepare for pvp. That means I need the right items (gear + stims) and right character (pvp character). You can't suggest any optional ways if it's not the best way. That's because my opponent is using the best ways against me. So there can't be any talk about "hurr you can still pvp with hybrid".

Another thing are the maps, which aren't very suitable at this moment. When it comes to entering a location, it's matter of life and death. Upon spawning, you might be spotted and spawned on immediately which usually means certain death. When entering up or down ladders, you might die immediately without any chance to affect your destiny. Not very welcoming, encourages over-cautious procedures.
Increasing the terminals might reduce the chance that such fate falls on you, but what the actual problem is that when you get in trouble you just die. I don't care if I had to pvp every time I went crafting, what matters is that the settings are welcoming.


Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: davrot on April 21, 2013, 05:50:23 pm
monitor locations
It's still camping no matter what euphemism you use.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: avv on April 21, 2013, 06:02:52 pm
It's still camping no matter what euphemism you use.

It's just that camping can also mean 5 guys staring at preview, showing off what they got. The point is that with sneak you deny everyone the information that location is camped.
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Sarakin on April 22, 2013, 05:06:19 am
Like I said elsewhere, game isnt worse than it was before. Its definitely better, but the content added is insignificant. Thats why people get bored and leave the game for something more entertaining - like TLAmk2. This ongoing witchhunt and pointing out the obvious is good just for one thing.

On a side note, SS are a must in current meta. If you want to reduce them, you might wanna introduce better mechanics (SS cd, healing over time, larger hp pools, better FA).
Title: Re: Step Up And Dance With The Players
Post by: Senocular on April 22, 2013, 09:49:34 am
2238 was always bad, it's just it never had any competition until now.