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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Blerter on January 21, 2013, 02:53:11 pm
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I would like to suggest that flamers or rather pyromaniac got a particular buff, I have spoken to various people that also agree that flamers need a buff including Voland. I am going to start off listing the disadvantages off flamers/improved flamers and I will not even bother writing the advantages.
Disadvantages:
-High ap requirement like all other BG's but with other BG's you will usually do a burst of bullets that create a balance with the AP requirement.
-Low damage within its range compared to any other BG (rocket launchers have 40 range and always knock back and knock down so they are out of the picture)
-Terrible range (5 hexes) this makes it very hard to get people and you may say that other BGs have about a 6 hex effective radius for close bursts which is true, but they can also fire from longer distances which is not as effective but it is still better than maximum 5.
There are more unlisted disadvantages, but the fact that you need sneak to get to 5 hexes without them running away or shooting before coupled with the sneak penalty renders sneak for flamers useless.
If you do a specialised 2 burst flamer build that is also ineffective as between those bursts they can shoot you and not even 3 bursts will kill with pyromaniac against a toughness CAmkII char.
My proposal only makes improved flamers a viable option when considering a gun and this is it.
Flamer fuel MkII: -15 DR
Pyromaniac: +20 damage -25 DR
Pyromaniac+: +20 damage -25 DR
Improved/normal flamer always knocks down on hit.
This means if you DO get into range and HAVE wasted skill points to make sneak 300% (sacrificing 2 perks for skilled) and making it specialised SACRIFICING 5 more perks on BroF ABx2 and Pyromaniac (rendering the build useless for any other gun compared to BG minigunner builds) you may actually get a kill or close to it.
This is the buff flamers need and I would like to hear your criticism please. :D
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Its a low tier gun, you can't compare avenger and a flamer. Its like you're saying 10mm pistol is shit compared to sniper buff it!
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All of the buffs I said only make it viable to actually use, the fact that you need a very specialised build with such low range will keep it low tier it just makes it plausible to use and helps knew builds rise other than BGers that use miniguns.
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Its a low tier gun, you can't compare avenger and a flamer. Its like you're saying 10mm pistol is shit compared to sniper buff it!
Improved flamer is harder to come by than avenger, mini , rl and any other bg besides bozar. Improved flamer should get a buff but normal flamer should not because like you said its low tier and can be made 5 min after wipe.
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I agree Improved Flamer could use a buff, but regular Flamer seems fine.
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The improved flamer is already buff. You can kill a nasty floater in 3 shots with it. that's much better than an avenger, unless you 1 hex.
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The improved flamer is already buff. You can kill a nasty floater in 3 shots with it. that's much better than an avenger, unless you 1 hex.
Thats not buffed, 3 shots = 21 ap, floater fire dr = 0%
Player will kill you before you can do 2 bursts and thats IF you get up to them, proposal dr decrease for pyrimaniac and 100% knockdown for improved flamer :D
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What moron would use a flamer for PvP?
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What moron would use a flamer for PvP?
None thats why it needs a buff....
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What moron would use a flamer for PvP?
Right now no1.the thing is suggested here is how can an improved flamer can actually do something in pvp.
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I can agree whit the buff the imp. flamer could use something like loosing half of the action points you have if you get burned by it... i never heard about ppls that could do anything besides screaming and running or struggling on the ground after burned by a flamethrower..... it wont make big troubles in town... cos if you get burned in town you either protected by the guard and the guy will die or you are in a TC or in pvp situation wher you made a mistake to get to close to a flamer...
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I agree with Blerter for the sake of realism more than for the game balance: flamers are highly effective and not so short ranged, contrary as pictured in films/videogames: WWII era hand-held flamers had a range of 50m, tank-mounted ones had a range of 200+ meters. even the hand held one should fire farther than a character can throw a grenade.
So if increasing its range/area of effect is out of questions, at least increase it's lethality.
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What moron would use a flamer for PvP?
A guy who dont want to do pvp like all. We make all pvp with avengers and m60, do pvp with a tank + improved flamer can be funny.
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Whew man thank god people share my opinion, and the only way you can do that is buff imp flamer to knockdown on hit and pyro to reduce dr :D
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Or damage over time.
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10 damage per second for 5 seconds, very good idea but will be completely negated by dt not even including DR, the buff I suggested would be perfect.
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Poison ignores the DT. why would fire do otherwise ? can be a special case: combat armors would ignore half the damage, metal armor wouldn't protect, and leather thingies would take only 1/4.
This way a loser in leather jacket wouldn't be such a loser after all.
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Keep in mind that while they are losing hp they can still attack and kill you, you are over complicating it, pyro dr reduction and imp flamer 100% knockdown chance would be much more effective and undertandable.
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Yeah, but flamers were de-facto kamikazes during wars: easy to spot, hated by all. will reflect this if it leads to a slow but garanteed death.
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I sugest the effect of reducing the targets AP no knockbacks so they can still run away or fight there if you want too... a jet user would be in a pain if he cant use 14AP only 7... for a short time! or if this not enough then maybe half AP regeneration in the main time its like a panic efect on you "Shet im burning"
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flamers with 100% knockdowns huh, so I guess 5 bluesuit trolls with flamers would be able to kill a unity patrol with no problem
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If you manage to make Flamers too good, 2 guys then could cover any narrow entrance, because of mentioned KD and wide radius of full dmg (no reduction like with burst weapons) and high dmg. The result is camping and frustrating 2 hit instakills.
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So you' 're telling me someone holding an avenger can't instalkill in 2 bursts with dedicated perks and so ammo.. it need a Dr reduction buff and also a buff to compensate for the low range, your silly enough to get within that range they should get 2 burst kills and remember if they are 6 vexed you can not get them and they can always run if they want.
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There are various ways how to raise DR, but none how to increase FR besides armour. If those guys with flamers are camping, talking about range is pointless.
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Damage resistance increased by toughness and psycho also affects fire resistance.
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I still see the result as AP halved wen hit by a flamer.... no knockbacks... each time you are hit by the flamer the AP halved agan until your AP rach a minim what is needed to open a door or use of stims!!!! this would make players to run away from flamers in panic and will make the weapon a potential PVP equipment! whit the same ammount of damage! its sould be caled a a weapon perk like panicky! would make it a great camp breacher! ohh and ofc only againts humanoid! Power armors would be immune and Mutans too so it wont make the farming easyer
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so if the person has 2 action boys and be of they can still by burst you once you flame them despite what you said and that's only if you can get within range and they can burst you before you get in range aswell
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Damage resistance increased by toughness and psycho also affects fire resistance.
Are you sure about that? Last time i checked, toughness increases only normal damage DT/DR.
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And what if the flamer get a better chance of cripling becos there is no aimed shootsm, and if you ask me, whit burned hands you cant touch shit, maybe the flamer could do cripling whit 50% chance or not cripling just force the victim to drop the weapon curently holding!
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We are not basing this off of rl as that will be way too complex,
and does psycho increase fire Dr or just normal as well?
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This is still a stupid idea. No one would use a 5 hex ranged big gun for pvp even if it *WAS* buffed. Still, I disagree.
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Damage resistance increased by toughness and psycho also affects fire resistance.
Wrong. Get your facts straight before arguing.
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Then it needs a maximum of 35% DR reduction, and a 100% knockdown chance.
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FYI improved flamer, fast shot and 2x pyro with mk2 ammo and 2 shots can kill a 290 hp tank, but just barely. Imo pyro should add to critical chance as well, maybe 10% each.
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Fast shot doesnt work with flamer and it shoulden't as there is no ill effects because you can not aim anyway, also
you said 2 shots will kill a 290 hp tank, well it won't (35% DR) with CAmkII and the max damage with a flamer so 165 - 35% = 107.5
2 shots = 107.5 x 2 (215) and there is still 75 hp left despite the 20 or 40 neg health, that also means 14 or 12 AP and also will take alot of time to burst 2wice, time in which they can burst you. Pyro should deduct 15% of DR for each level of pyro (total 30%) which leaves 5% DR left and IMP flamer should have auto knockdown for those 2 burst fires.
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Fast shot doesnt work with flamer and it shoulden't as there is no ill effects because you can not aim anyway, also
you said 2 shots will kill a 290 hp tank, well it won't (35% DR) with CAmkII and the max damage with a flamer so 165 - 35% = 107.5
2 shots = 107.5 x 2 (215) and there is still 75 hp left despite the 20 or 40 neg health, that also means 14 or 12 AP and also will take alot of time to burst 2wice, time in which they can burst you. Pyro should deduct 15% of DR for each level of pyro (total 30%) which leaves 5% DR left and IMP flamer should have auto knockdown for those 2 burst fires.
fast shot adds 5 damage after dt/dr is calculated, so does pyromaniac. Those values bypass armour, +45 to whatever is calculated.
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just increase damage so It is a guaranteed 2 hit death. The way I see is like this
guy with flamer see's some dude with a avenger
guy with avenger is 20 hex away
guy with avenger allready can fire and will atleast twice before flamer guy gets there
if flamer guy gets in range and survives the 2 burst of avenger dude then he really be dealing some serious damage.
flamer guy just went through hell to get to the avenger dude so avenger dude should be fucked when flamer guy gets there.
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Regular flamer is a farming weapon, the Improved one should be pvp-viable. Make them both cost -1 AP to fire, give the Improved one a knockdown effect and more damage.
I'd go into more detail as I've had several experimental Flamer builds (of many different varieties) in FOnline over the wipes and can certainly provide an informative view on the subject but it's just not worth the trouble for something that will most likely be ignored.
Are Molotovs fire damage type weapons yet? Or are the two levels of Pyromaniac literally only useful for the two Flamers only. It's really bad design to have 2 levels of a perk go to waste for one specific build which doesn't even fucking do anything.
Add some Incendiary ammo or some shit, just do something to make Fire work. If you added 7.62 incendiary rounds or something silly like 14mm Incendiary, they would have value purely because Pyromaniac exists and it goes towards a completely different DT/DR type than the Normal rounds, which can be better or worse for some armors. There is heavy logic in a sidegrades system that you (the devs) keep turning a blind eye to.
What is with this stubbornness to add content and bring life into unused builds? It's been like this for as long as I remember. It takes like less than 5 minutes to add Incendiary ammo or something and I already know for sure that it won't break shit, I've done it myself in the FOnline SDK.
It took you this long to get off your ass and do something to shotguns that made them marginally better than they were before, after claims about the Sawed-off Shotgun being as good as the Avenger Minigun. Please don't let this same dreadful wait for Flamers to become usable happen because you have too much pride to fix the problem.
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So true man he has the idea! this thread might be the push devs need!
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Regular flamer is a farming weapon, the Improved one should be pvp-viable. Make them both cost -1 AP to fire, give the Improved one a knockdown effect and more damage.
I'd go into more detail as I've had several experimental Flamer builds (of many different varieties) in FOnline over the wipes and can certainly provide an informative view on the subject but it's just not worth the trouble for something that will most likely be ignored.
Are Molotovs fire damage type weapons yet? Or are the two levels of Pyromaniac literally only useful for the two Flamers only. It's really bad design to have 2 levels of a perk go to waste for one specific build which doesn't even fucking do anything.
Add some Incendiary ammo or some shit, just do something to make Fire work. If you added 7.62 incendiary rounds or something silly like 14mm Incendiary, they would have value purely because Pyromaniac exists and it goes towards a completely different DT/DR type than the Normal rounds, which can be better or worse for some armors. There is heavy logic in a sidegrades system that you (the devs) keep turning a blind eye to.
What is with this stubbornness to add content and bring life into unused builds? It's been like this for as long as I remember. It takes like less than 5 minutes to add Incendiary ammo or something and I already know for sure that it won't break shit, I've done it myself in the FOnline SDK.
It took you this long to get off your ass and do something to shotguns that made them marginally better than they were before, after claims about the Sawed-off Shotgun being as good as the Avenger Minigun. Please don't let this same dreadful wait for Flamers to become usable happen because you have too much pride to fix the problem.
Hi, I'm bumping this because I think it should be thought about as it's clearly the solution to any problems the Improved Flamer and Pyromaniac have.
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In NCR someone shot a leather armored person with 196 hp 4 times with an improved flamer and they didnt die, he managed to last enough for 28 ap and still didnt even kill the person, what reconite says is a good solution
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Yep the improved flamer need a buff. But the standard flamer is perfect for farm.
I agree that the molotov must be buffed by Pyromaniac.
Why not add a burning sword like in fallout 3 ? http://www.gameranx.com/images/updates/1294927246-sheeshkebab.jpg (http://www.gameranx.com/images/updates/1294927246-sheeshkebab.jpg)[/li][/list]
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Yep the improved flamer need a buff. But the standard flamer is perfect for farm.
I agree that the molotov must be buffed by Pyromaniac.
Why not add a burning sword like in fallout 3 ? http://www.gameranx.com/images/updates/1294927246-sheeshkebab.jpg (http://www.gameranx.com/images/updates/1294927246-sheeshkebab.jpg)[/li][/list]
Lets add a Fat Man while we're at it! ::)
Flamers could use some love for sure. At the moment they're good for leveling and that's about it. I highly doubt we'll ever see them in PvP, even with a buff. So the value of buffing them is subjective at best.
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claims about the Sawed-off Shotgun being as good as the Avenger Minigun
Quotation please.
Anyway, personally I have an idea how to improve flamer (it has something to do with food and frying pans).
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A nice buff may be a new Perk for the Flamer. Such as "Burn" or "Blaze" which takes 3 hp each second for 10 seconds (charter gets ablazed). Or something like that, and the effect could be healed only with 100% or upper Doc Skill.
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A nice buff may be a new Perk for the Flamer. Such as "Burn" or "Blaze" which takes 3 hp each second for 10 seconds (charter gets ablazed). Or something like that, and the effect could be healed only with 100% or upper Doc Skill.
Or maybe water?Would give another use for the bottles and water bags.
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Or maybe water?Would give another use for the bottles and water bags.
+1. Water might slow down ablazing effect.
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I like it, this game seriously lacks dots
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I like that but 30 damage is not enough it should be 10 damage for 10 seconds (as it can be reduced by water) and this should not be affected by any DR or DT, during this time of which they can still move--attack--kill you.
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Quotation please.
Here's one.
Table with all 3 brd vs CA:
PID_AVENGER_MINIGUN 1.659908675
PID_SAWED_OFF_SHOTGUN 1.651073198
Alternatively, you could just search Solar's post history, it ought to be mentioned in there about 50 times at least.
Also, I'd like to add that an "Afterburn" effect, would be extremely simple to simulate in the FOnline engine. Literally all you'd have to do was copy/paste the Poisoned effect, up the lethality of it and reduce the amount of time it stays, detach it from the "Poison" effect itself so you can't cure it with Antidote but maybe with Bottled Water or some crap. This wouldn't fix the problem with the Improved Flamer being useless in PVP (my other suggestions will) but it would give them a unique niche that no other weapon in the game can currently fill (that is Damage Over Time).
And seriously, what is the reason for Molotovs not doing Fire Damage by now? Is it an issue with them doing +40 damage with Pyromaniac? I think if someone is invested enough to go twice into Pyromaniac they deserve to use God-Molotovs. Pretty sure one of the devs (maybe Lexx? the rational one) agreed with me that they should be doing fire damage to fill the niche that Frags and Plasma nades don't at some point aeons ago. Molotovs don't explode and spray fragments everywhere, they smash and spew fire over the landscape.
So much could be done with Flamers, Molotovs, the Pyromaniac perk or incendiary ammo it's unbelievable. The only weapons in the entire game capable of doing fire damage get completely ignored. There's a whole Damage Threshold and Resistance type to prevent against it, but what's the point if nobody in the game would be caught dead trying to use a Flamer. While the usual Flamer is the entry-level Big Guns weapon for grinding, having the Improved Flamer as a simple grinding tool is just embarrassing, it could be so much more. What the hell do you do with those Pyromaniac perks once you level cap out and there's nothing left to grind on?
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Here's one.
That's for JHP against armored target, which nobody sane uses. But I agree comparing average damage / 10 AP isn't the best way to tell if something needs boost or not. Range, single burst damage, how many attacks without reloading, how easy something is to farm (and if possible at all) that's all important factors.
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Ok JovB the fuel mkII has 0 DR it is very hard to obtain an improved flamer it has 5 shots which is still low and it does maximum 125 damage without a specialised build and much less against an armoured foe compared to avenger 100-200 against an armoured foe ( both at 5 range) it has 5 range as a apposed to avengers 35 and costs the same AP and has barely any wide spreading range.
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The Pyromaniac perks should modify weapon damage by %, not by flat number. Something between 25-50% per each rank. That way molotovs don't get too overpowered and flamers get even bigger boost.
Along with the damage over time burning effect it would be very nice. also make the burning effect stack, as the poison does.
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The Pyromaniac perks should modify weapon damage by %, not by flat number. Something between 25-50% per each rank. That way molotovs don't get too overpowered and flamers get even bigger boost.
This seems like a really good middle ground.
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The only thing with adding burn effects and DoT with a flamer is you'd need some of the armour to give you some extra Resistance to it. If everyone got a DoT, realistic as it would be and very beneficial, you'd only need one burst to really fuck up a fight.
Hit the guys, they're all on fire, run to cover and let them burn, while they're healing up, try again etc.
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The answer to what you said is the Fire DT/Fire DR stat on all armor types, this already exists. Fire DT/DR is pretty beefy on every high-end armor already, much like Laser vs Metal Armor.
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This damage over time is stupid thing in my opinion.... i think the buff sould be something like the shotgun gained but not whit knockback affect but if you get closer to your target your chance to hit critical increases or the damage bonus.... that sould do a good thing to the flamer from 5 hex you gain notgin from 3 you get 25% crit chance or more... and so on if you get to 1 hex you gain insta crit or 100% damage this is what i think that will make the flamer build usable not damage over time bullshit
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oh yeah because bg needs a weapon that's only good for one hexing, they don't already have that. ::)
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This damage over time is stupid thing in my opinion.... i think the buff sould be something like the shotgun gained but not whit knockback affect but if you get closer to your target your chance to hit critical increases or the damage bonus.... that sould do a good thing to the flamer from 5 hex you gain notgin from 3 you get 25% crit chance or more... and so on if you get to 1 hex you gain insta crit or 100% damage this is what i think that will make the flamer build usable not damage over time bullshit
Then lest reverse the thing if you hit the tharget at 5hex you get more krit or damage and from one hex you do the regular damage whit no bonuses. It would make it mutch more usable and then agan you wont get another 1 hex-er istead a 5hexer
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Then lest reverse the thing if you hit the tharget at 5hex you get more krit or damage and from one hex you do the regular damage whit no bonuses. It would make it mutch more usable and then agan you wont get another 1 hex-er istead a 5hexer
To counter his post you suggest doing less damage at one hex than 5 just because he said that?! What a preposterous suggestion. Utterly outrageous.
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To counter his post you suggest doing less damage at one hex than 5 just because he said that?! What a preposterous suggestion. Utterly outrageous.
m8! Its not a counter its a suggestion i was holding back becos i thought it will be to powerfull but i was out of ideas so i come up whit this! And if you think about it not just raging... the you would realise that the fire is mor dangeres when its spred out..... so the suggestion i made was actualy based on reality, and agan i know this is not reality just a game! But gues what i suggested what i didnt want in the first place!
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Pretty sure one flame thrower burst IRl would kill anyone regardless of if they are 1 or 5 meters away and armour would do absolutely nothing to help. IMO fire damage should bypass armour and then you wouldn't have to change anything else, 2 bursts could kill a 290 hp.