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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Closed suggestions => Topic started by: FischiPiSti on March 26, 2010, 01:21:56 am
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<@MrLexx> FA and doctor has been reworked
<@MrLexx> because of too much xp farmers
I understand this and i agree on this, i really do, but these changes are IMHO NOT good.
In many threads i b***ed about how easy the FA/CD can be exploited to farm XP and to gain advantage in TB.
So....Again i'll write down my opinions! \o/
First, the issues:
1. Anyone can use FA, 2 friends can hit each other, then heal each other up to gain free XP.
2. In TB, its easyer to run away, BUT stop before running out of AP, so the turn doesnt skip, FA CD timer ticking, in 1 or 2 turns the CD is down to 0, and FA is usable again. More XP, and very good survivability if you have enough AP to run away from critters, but more importantly, its an exploit of RT mechanics.
(Any CD system in TB can be exploited this way)
Now, the changes, some of them not listed in the changelog:
1. After applying FA, you get a weakend debuff, with a bigger CD then dying. <-BAD
This change should stop the XP farmers right? Well it doesnt. Surely it slows them down, just like the crafting CD system but doesnt really help.
In an RT battle, the old system wasnt the best either, because the HP/FA was high, in fact too high, as some players had low max HP, and FA with a high skill overhealed often, but the CD remained unchanged. Seeing as AP regenerates much faster then CD reaching 0 even with a high skill, guns WILL have much higher DPS then healers could heal. Not very reliable. The new system made it worse.
As a side effect, it effectively kills the doctor, as a class, but not as a profession, so now the docs have the same fate of crafters: craft, then go to sleep and leave the fighting to others. Stimpacks will be much more valuable, but is this a good thing?
please someone, explain why is it a good idea to have loner players with:
-BA(bought with moneyz)
-Million super stimpaks(bought with moneyz to ensure self preservation instead of relying on a teammate doctor)
-Mercs(bought with money, but exception because of CH requirements)
-Minigun(bought with moneyz, but also an exception because of special, and skill reqirements to use it) be effective,
INSTEAD of promoting teamplay, after all, this is an MMO-type-like-of-unique-fallout-game-experience or not?
2. In TB neither is FA, nor DOC working. <-VERY BAD
I dont think this part needs explanation
Surely, FA and doc are in fact not useless even with these changes, the question is, that is it worth spending all your skill points in these skills?
Because i mainly use TB to fight critters alone(in RT, even rats can kill you easily) my answer is a no, as i can just buy stimpaks, theres no restriction on those..
But enough about ranting, that wont solve anything, what are YOUR suggestions?
Mines are:
Get rid of XP farmers by umm....removing XP gained from FA alltogether. I for one wouldnt mind, as long as i can be usefull if i cant fight because of all skillpoints spent in doc/FA. I have doc profession, i can level by crafting.. Or how about 25 XP per FA like in FO1/2?
The added weakend debuff could infact be usefull for the doc class in general. The problem is its length. Make it scale with FA, so weakend and FA cd reach 0 at the same time. This way, in a group, non-doc players need to rely on a doc player to be able to use any FA skill, they cant heal each other(only themselves) if theres no doc around.
As for the TB exploit: RT CD doesnt work in TB, instead i suggest a "turn CD". Player CD is set to X after using FA. At every combat turn X is reduced by 1, untill 0.
As for overhealing: Less is more. IMO HP gained per FA should be lowered, WITH the CD.
Current system: 120 skill: 120 hp -at most-, 8 min CD weak, 2 min FA CD. (just an example, i dont know the logic how the CD is calculated)
Scaled weakend: 120 skill: 120 hp -at most-, 2 min CD, BUT target cannout be healed unless theres a doc nearby.
My theory: 120 skill: 1HP/1 sec, let that be: 20 hp -at most-, 20 sec CD/ 30 hp -at most-, 30 sec CD/etc. The total amount healed in 2 min remains 120. NO XP GAINED. This system is much more efficient, even in RT. Dont you dare call overpowered, because AP regeneration looks like this: 1 AP/1 sec. In 7 seconds i healed ~7 hp, and you bursted me with 50. (This ofc with 120 skill) Numbers can be tweaked to balance out things.
Discuss.
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certainly the weakened thing is not a good idea and cooldowns are horribly long
I agree that there should be less (or 25) exp for ude of FA, good idea would be if doctor proffesion somehow would affect cooldowns and amount of HP healed
I think your system is to complicated, why we just don't use the old idea with less xp?(for example at first it could be normal xp= 3times HP healed) but it should deteriorate (like with killing creatures) so it wasn't usefull as a xping system
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FA and DOC realy sucks now.
I dont know, how long i will have to leveling my char, if i must wait 7 minutes after one succesful encounter (or 1/5... - depends on how many floaters, centaurs or other though creatures will be in encounter). I dont know, if mr. big (Lexx) tried to spent at least one day with leveling, but i can tell you, i was always waiting my FA cooldown before my next attack, because creatures can harm you, if you dont know this.
I told you know, that this will make bigger difference between regular players and occasional, because one of them will have their chars in few weeks at level 21 and others (like me, because i cant spent so much time this era ingame) will stay at base or chating in ncr.
Maybe, i will use fast relogs and dual alts because of this system and i will give myself doc and fa, or, at least, i will try to level up 2 my chars in time.
please, think about this retard system, I DONT WANT SPENT MORE and MORE TIME in booring PVE (i think no random caves quests or similar funny team PvE is not added yet, am i wrong?).
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FA and Doc cooldowns are now the same, use Doc to remove FA.
For turn based, it is not currently possible to lower the cooldowns in accordance with turns taken, so its just frozen. It was possible to wait out a turn to VASTLY increase the effectiveness of FA. Now it isn't.
You can still heal multiple people with your FA skill, so its not totally needed to match your doc skill to your FA, but if you want to be a totally effective doctor you certainly need the doctor skill.
Hopefully this now means you need to be a doctor char, rather than just a combat god with bumped up FA.
Also, stims and S.stims got a large price reduction, use these.
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FA and Doc cooldowns are now the same, use Doc to remove FA.
For turn based, it is not currently possible to lower the cooldowns in accordance with turns taken, so its just frozen. It was possible to wait out a turn to VASTLY increase the effectiveness of FA. Now it isn't.
You can still heal multiple people with your FA skill, so its not totally needed to match your doc skill to your FA, but if you want to be a totally effective doctor you certainly need the doctor skill.
Hopefully this now means you need to be a doctor char, rather than just a combat god with bumped up FA.
Also, stims and S.stims got a large price reduction, use these.
You dont get it. If i want kill i.e. one floater, i need to give myself at least 1 FA. If i will give one FA, i need to give myself doctor to kill weak to be ready to another FA. But there are up to 40 minutes doctor skill cooldowns and cca 6-7 minutes of weak times. So i must wait 6 minutes to get myself next first aid. Even when i am leveling at highest levels on this kind of creatures (with my SG char) i used cca 2-3 faids on 2 floaters/centaurs/deathclaws.
This makes leveling on this kind of creatures almost imposible.
It is not true, that my temates can help me. If we will go with group to this encouters, there will be alway multiple enemy because of number of players in our group. So everybody will need his own fa and doc.
Yes, i can make stimpacks.. ehm, and i will lost them because of raiders (i have now 150 outdoorsman and i entered a lot of raiders encouters), or lags or PK on the same spot.
You devs were always agaisnt bigger factions. Can you tell me, how much time will have to spent single player with crafting ammo, gun, armor, stimpack before he wants to get stupid 1-3 k of experience?
THiS IS IN OPPOSITE OF YOU SAID: the cities will be empty, because players will spent much more time in encounters without contact to other players.
And why? Because you listen to some noobs without PVP or at least PVE experience (caravan hunting) because you think their ideas are reasonable (every player is miracle doctors ideas).
I like Vedaras, but he was unable to create PvP char (not only pure PvP, but any PvP char, but he always trolled because nobody wants to use his doctors skills - sorry Vedaras, you are my king and i am your queen :) ).
So Solar, make your own char, give him instantly level 12 and some weapons, and go to floaters with few stimpacks..
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FA and Doc cooldowns are now the same, use Doc to remove FA.
Did the doc cooldowns change? Because i didnt notice... IF the Doc skill scaled CD would match the FA scaled CD, then i wouldnt have problem with this, because i have 1:1 doc:FA skill.
For turn based, it is not currently possible to lower the cooldowns in accordance with turns taken, so its just frozen. It was possible to wait out a turn to VASTLY increase the effectiveness of FA. Now it isn't.
Yeah, just like i said. So does this mean, this is just a temporary solution? Because if it is, then good, you are working on it, ill just wait untill theres a change and dont make a doc char until then.
You can still heal multiple people with your FA skill, so its not totally needed to match your doc skill to your FA, but if you want to be a totally effective doctor you certainly need the doctor skill.
Hopefully this now means you need to be a doctor char, rather than just a combat god with bumped up FA.
Again, IF the CD of doc would be a bit more reasonable, then it would be fine by me. But i AM a doctor, like i said, with 1:1 skill in doc:FA, and from my own experience, the CD on my doc skill is more then TWENTY MINUTES. Ofc, im still a low level char, but this just tells me, that when im lvl 20-ish, then my FA CD will be ~1 min, while my doc at ~5 minutes, thus rendering my FA skill useless for the remainder of those 4 minutes..(in a big battle)
Also, stims and S.stims got a large price reduction, use these.
But why?? You nerf the ability of the DEDICATED healer class, to replace it with a potion that can be infinitely used without penalty by ANYONE with no healing skills, i just dont get it ???
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- Doc countdown should've changed as of last night (At about 10-11 GMT)
- When the engine can support cooldown counting down as turns are taken, this will be how it will work
- Doc cooldown should be lower now (see above). If it isn't its a bug and will be fixed.
- Healer class chars got a tremendous boost IMO. No longer will every man and his dog have 100 FA and be able to take care of all their FA-ing needs, so there should be a place for battlefield medics (Both in terms of being able to heal multiple people with your FA skill and in the extra ability a dedicated doctor char has over a simple FA PvP char.
As for why people would bother to use medic's services rather than use stims, stims still cost money - hopefully the cost of healing is a little more reasonable to see stims used, but free still beats any cost.
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I would've preferred having to use first aid kits to heal people, but I'm interested to see how this works in practice.
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- Doc countdown should've changed as of last night (At about 10-11 GMT)
- When the engine can support cooldown counting down as turns are taken, this will be how it will work
- Doc cooldown should be lower now (see above). If it isn't its a bug and will be fixed.
- Healer class chars got a tremendous boost IMO. No longer will every man and his dog have 100 FA and be able to take care of all their FA-ing needs, so there should be a place for battlefield medics (Both in terms of being able to heal multiple people with your FA skill and in the extra ability a dedicated doctor char has over a simple FA PvP char.
As for why people would bother to use medic's services rather than use stims, stims still cost money - hopefully the cost of healing is a little more reasonable to see stims used, but free still beats any cost.
Q1: What kind of medical "service" will use players during the leveling characters in wasteland? I mean serious enemies, like floaters, centaurs, deathclaws etc..
Q2: Are you sure, that combat medic will have time to heal 2 people in battle? Battles before wipe were no longer then few minutes. Are you sure that with high FA and DOC will be able to use it at least 3x per battle (= cca 1 minute cooldown for FA and DOC)?
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Thats up to the players. The tools are there.
Want to heal yourself at roughly the same speed as before, or want to be a reliable Medic to your gang? You'll need the Doc skill aswell
Want to heal your gang mates? You can have high FA without Doc
Want to heal yourself without having to use skill points? Stims and Super Stims are pretty cheap
What you will not be able to do is look after all of your FA needs from a minimal investment in FA, you won't be able to use turn based timers you make critters easy and nor will it be possible to pump XP to level to quite the same extent.
We shall see how the system goes.
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Thats up to the players. The tools are there.
Want to heal yourself at roughly the same speed as before, or want to be a reliable Medic to your gang? You'll need the Doc skill aswell
Want to heal your gang mates? You can have high FA without Doc
Want to heal yourself without having to use skill points? Stims and Super Stims are pretty cheap
What you will not be able to do is look after all of your FA needs from a minimal investment in FA, you won't be able to use turn based timers you make critters easy and nor will it be possible to pump XP to level to quite the same extent.
We shall see how the system goes.
Why you devs want so much long time leveling, when you can not do nothing realy funny during this time?
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FA and DOC realy sucks now.
I dont know, how long i will have to leveling my char, if i must wait 7 minutes after one succesful encounter (or 1/5... - depends on how many floaters, centaurs or other though creatures will be in encounter). I dont know, if mr. big (Lexx) tried to spent at least one day with leveling
then maybe stop worrying about leveling to your 15+ level when you can finally play 2D deathmatch, and start playing MMORPG
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What I would say I'm disappointed with is the lack of a crafting path for doctors.
Gunners can start churning out BBs and BB guns (which is great, by the way), but doctors can't start out by crafting humble healing powders and antidotes to get basic xp and some starter cash.
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Guys, let's give the current settings a chance. I feel fine about FA/DOC right now (even though - DAMN - it is the first time I haven't tagged doctor and now it is really useful :'( )
Besides - I've got level 3 and 25% doctor. This 25% doctor is quite often enough to erase weaken on my char. Try it ;]
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I like the new system. It prevents xp farming from FA and the stimpaks are now much more worth than before.
It feels more like the original Fallout to me than before.
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XP farming with FA was a joke, crafting had way better returns and so does killing creeps.
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then maybe stop worrying about leveling to your 15+ level when you can finally play 2D deathmatch, and start playing MMORPG
Hmm, maybe you forged, that you allowed me to broadcast radio mad brahmin only from prison, where i cant get any news, zero interaction with players ... So, please, dont tell me play MMORPG, it sounds funny from you.
After this post wipe euphory, only PvP will be the magnet for most players staying inside.. And i have not time to spent so many hours, like others.. So me, and many others, single or occasionaly players will be in disadvantage in the major reason why to stay in, just because we will not be able to heal ourself during leveling (last leveling my char to level 21 takes me cca one month).
This measure, aimed primary on PvP, has sideeffect on other part of playing.
But seriously, i dont understand, why players, which spent many hours of crafting, leveling, traveling, are unable to add yourself FA to raise their 2-3 minute combat life by another few seconds.
Give us repetable, team PvE action (like was my shitty caves quests) and i will enjoy the leveling.
I appreciate your work, devs, but maybe you are loosing the connection with kind of players, which are the biggest part of this gameworld.
P.S.: At level 9 player which has not doctor skill is almost unable to heal weak. It is not about pure PvP, it is about world travelling, anti PK, leveling,... .
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What I would say I'm disappointed with is the lack of a crafting path for doctors.
Gunners can start churning out BBs and BB guns (which is great, by the way), but doctors can't start out by crafting humble healing powders and antidotes to get basic xp and some starter cash.
But conversely what they can produce is now worth something. Just look at all the (not so) willing customers right here in this thread! :)
Give us repetable, team PvE action (like was my shitty caves quests) and i will enjoy the leveling.
I think stage 1 will be PvE-ing the advanced material zones - look at the toxic caves for an example (I think these are already done anyway :P )
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But conversely what they can produce is now worth something. Just look at all the (not so) willing customers right here in this thread! :)
True, but there's no entry level stuff to craft, you have to wade right in with the higher end stuff. Small gunners can at least start out with BB guns and 10mms, we just have to shoot things until we get doctor profession.
At least give us healing powders and give us back antidotes. I feel like an idiot crafting endless primitive tools.
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We're going to add weak healing powder, give the budding doctors out there something to do.
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I think stage 1 will be PvE-ing the advanced material zones - look at the toxic caves for an example (I think these are already done anyway :P )
I know, i was already there :) But i think this is the same map with no variation and our team was full of noobs and we suceed .. so no challenge, no radiation and no firegeckons throwing their flame from every corner...
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Heh, well, difficulty can always be tinkered with.
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The toxic cave isn't meaned as a high-level PvE location.
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We're going to add weak healing powder, give the budding doctors out there something to do.
Nobody uses healing powder anyway, -1 PE isn't really worth it, even with the new first aid system. I'd suggest you just give untrained doctors healing powder and antidotes, and give doctor level 1 all the booze. And maybe First Aid Kits.
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Nah, weak healing will be fine. Its only level 0 afterall
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Nah, weak healing will be fine. Its only level 0 afterall
So long as you get rid of the perception penalty, or at least make it pretty short. Otherwise folk will just stand around instead of healing
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use fuckin stimpacks :>
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use fuckin stimpacks :>
gathering 3 items, cd on crafting and low hp heals = useless crap.
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use fuckin stimpacks :>
WTB 10 000 000 stimpacks .)
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how much do you pay for one? i can lower the detail price, because you buy much of them...
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I dont know, if mr. big (Lexx) tried to spent at least one day with leveling, but i can tell you, i was always waiting my FA cooldown before my next attack, because creatures can harm you, if you dont know this.
Yes, the whole day long already, since I am up. This makes approx 12 crazy hours of playingtime. I died once now, just due to some player killers. But I will have my vendetta. Some day. Because I tagged him and will recognize him.
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I repeat, i hope that if we will level up our combat medic, he will be able to give us FA during battle (3-4 minutes) at least 2 or 3 times. But i bet now, that it will be impossible, because nobody of you devs, were actively fighting in PvP in cities, so you dont know how long are battles.
So i suggest now, before you realize you did little mistake with your "combat doctor proffestion", add medkits in the game, you will need i.e. 150 FA or DOC skill to use it, and this medkits will lower the cooldowns.
Because if you want to make changes in this way, i hope it will be better idea than milions of superstims
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The med kits are already there, increasing those skills (thereby lowering the cooldowns)
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XP farming with FA was a joke, crafting had way better returns and so does killing creeps.
Not if you left a bot running all night. It was impossible with crafting or fighting mobs.
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The med kits are already there, increasing those skills (thereby lowering the cooldowns)
Are they craftable?
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Buyable from ... Dr Fung and ... erm, the Doc in VC courtyard (I think)
I'm not sure if the ones increasing the doc skill are there yet, it wasn't such an important skill back then, but its easy enough to add them at some point if not.
Also, the price might need a review downwards
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Do you realize, that priority of doc skill is to heal weak, not heal criplped limbs. So if you use fa, you are unable to heal crippled limbs. So another reason why this idea is trying to win in worst idea competition.
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Using Doc skill only picks one thing to fix now?
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Doctor skill will always heal weakened status over any crippled body parts. It also has a very high cooldown. I spend a lot of my time healing broken eyes, which often take multiple tries to fix, and sometimes they're weakened and don't tell me so I waste a doctor use on that.
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Being weakened and crippled should have the exact same chance of healing a crippled result as not being weakened and crippled.
Wheres the problem?
We should now (after the update) at least have the cheap stims we should have had from the start, hurrah.
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We should now (after the update) at least have the cheap stims we should have had from the start, hurrah.
Please tell me they don't tell me weak healing powder needs the FA book. And to be honest, the book requirement for regular healing powder is overkill. If I die, I've got to shuffle all the way to the library to get a new book.
How much HP will it heal? Healing items mid combat doesn't seem to be catching on.
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Same healing, it'll just cost half as much.
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I wanted to remove all book requirements for level 1 stuff. When our tool is fixed I'll do it.
As for weak healing powder, Im not sure. Perhaps exactly the same as healing powder, but remove the -1 Pe penalty from the normal stuff.