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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Closed suggestions => Topic started by: Sius on March 16, 2010, 09:31:33 am
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This is very old idea of mine and I've already mentioned it here several times too but I think it deserves its own topic and I would love to see some feedback from devs if such thing is possible. So here we go:
Main purpose of this idea is to get rid of crafting cooldowns (devs don't stop reading here!). Current crafting system "click -> get item -> wait" is (I dare to say) for most people absolutely boring time killer, that can be easily bypassed with bots and stuff like that. Materials and resources are not rare at all and finding them is matter of minutes. I suggest make it vice versa. 0 cooldowns when obtaining resource, 0 cooldowns when crafting from them. Maybe only add "crafting time" so that spear takes like 5-10 real life seconds to craft but CA 40-60 to add some actual work while crafting and not only click -> bang, newborn CA spawned.
Anyway here is the main idea for search -> reward system:
When you enter world map you would be able to enter different encounter map by pressing "world/town" button. Such maps should be huge (something like 3x NCR size or even larger). Resources will be hidden from you on that map, revealing only when you see them through your field of view. Every source should have limited amount of materials you can get out of it. These maps could be pretty much anything from flat deserts up to abandoned gas stations/villages/highways and so on and they would have their own "life". I mean there should be something like geckos crossing it from one end to another or rats having nest near cave with ores, some tribals hunting wild animas, raiders scouting area and looting everything they can and so on.
I will quote blahblah (hope you won't mind): "Search -> reward. Forces the player to search for stuff for 2 hours and as a reward, he gets an item. Click -> get item -> wait. Allows player to 1) Get item, 2) Do other stuff at the same time. So in the end he gets items and can get experience or talk with others in Hub."
As I've said to him at that discussion search -> reward allows you to do other stuff too, limiting you only with place. So if you want to get some experience while searching for materials then instead of focusing only on materials you simply stop avoiding "troubles" at such maps and you go and fight those geckons, enslave some tribals, search that building etc. Also I must mention that if you want to have more you will have to search more or search with fellow crafter or gang member + farming bots will be useless since you have to manually locate resource and when you do you can obtain only limited amount of materials from it. This also means there could be some quests connected to these maps making quests unpredictable. I mean you will get quest to find old gas station where quest giver used to play as a child and bring him his "treasure" he left there - meaning someone could find such location with 1st try and someone would have to look for it for hours. But the real problem with such huge map is TB combat. Maybe it could be done by limiting TB only at limited range of person who triggered it but I don't have much faith is this "solution". Most likely huge maps = real time only :-\.
So lets get it summarized:
+ effort = outcome (no time restrictions or waiting, maybe only crafting time)
+ supports group play
+ making bots useless
+ new scavenger/hunter ground (with quest possibility)
+ adding exploration factor into the game
+ making materials rare (new situation at resource market = supplier/consumer)
- TB combat useless in such locations (if not modified)
- enormous amount of mapping needed (if such locations should be worth exploring)
- economy shock (well I think no one can predict how exactly will economy look like with this system)
- devs will not like it
I want to add that even if cooldown system never changes I would love to see those huge maps implemented simply because I lack exploration in this game (and I think I'm not only one). These maps have much to offer and it would be shame not to consider their pros and possibilities.
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Pretty much what I wanted to see since always instead of cooldowns.
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I like your idea. Or simply make resources only appear in encounter maps (higher outdoorsman/science skill higher chance to find). This will make mining much like slave run or brahmin/gecko hunting.
You can tag the location and come back later to dig them out (limited numbers). And also make certain minerals/critters appear in certain grid.
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I like your idea. Or simply make resources only appear in encounter maps (higher outdoorsman/science skill higher chance to find). This will make mining much like slave run or brahmin/gecko hunting.
You can tag the location and come back later to dig them out (limited numbers). And also make certain minerals/critters appear in certain grid.
I've suggested this idea when cooldown crafting was introduced and its main goal back then was to remove cooldowns from game entirely. But more I've been thinking about this more I liked the idea of exploration itself and what it can bring into the game. So now I think we can divide my suggestion into two parts - a) removing cooldowns and b) introducing huge explorable maps. I think they work the best when they are both combined as I've described them in my main post. So I think your suggestion maybe could replace cooldowns but it lack exploration factor and other pros that large maps have. And I don't want to loose such possibilities in future FOnline.
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I really like this idea, gathering resources wouldn't be such a stereotype.
Though I doubt it would ever be implemented.
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i would like the idea, to gather resources without cooldown, but to craft items with big cooldown (cause in real life it would be more or less like that)
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And then to keep everything going at the same rate that countdowns are you would have to be able to find something at exactly the same rate. (Except this way it would be nigh on impossible to balance)
So instead of moaning about timeouts you would have people moaning about "Its so hard to find stufff"!111!!!"21!!2!"
However you want to disguise the delays to gathering, they will have to be there, be it cooldowns, searching, rocks with HP or anything else - it will still be equally dull - standing still, running about a map, endlessly hitting a rock, whatever else, unless you also add in something interesting (Travelling about the world map, some critters to overcome, forcing players together to open up PvP opportunities, etc).
Upon the wipe we will have a few changes to try to make the process a little less "passive" and a little more "active", whilst also reducing the timouts to be as lenient as we can possibly get them. Hopefully this will make it somewhat less of a tedious task whilst also preserving some kind of balance.
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To this comes that big maps aren't very good for the performance. Klamath is already with the maximum to work with. Everything else becomes a pain in the arse to maintain. Additionally to this, most people will most probably find it very annoying to run around all the time, as it can become very annoying already right now (just try to run from east of Klamath to west of Klamath a few times, it's just meh. Same for NCR and all other big places.
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To this comes that big maps aren't very good for the performance. Klamath is already with the maximum to work with. Everything else becomes a pain in the arse to maintain. Additionally to this, most people will most probably find it very annoying to run around all the time, as it can become very annoying already right now (just try to run from east of Klamath to west of Klamath a few times, it's just meh. Same for NCR and all other big places.
Well, there is a thin line between just running around and exploring. If you add some content, like resources spawning in random places, some npcs to kill, locked containers, hauses with some random stuff on shelves protected by raiders, friendly tribals hunting geckos, slavers on slave runs etc, then I'd much rather call it exploring and it's something that I would really look forward to.
Kind of a playground for players ;) I like it.
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Problem is, that it's just 'exploring' the first time. As soon as you have done it once, it's always the same and becomes tedious. That's why I like it more to add random content. But adding random elements is either very complicated or not possible in big fixed maps.
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Yeah, unfornortunately a lot of thngs would have to be random, in order for exploring not to become tedious.
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Its not about disguising the delays to gathering its about making world matter and possible to explore. Now if you want to fight you go to northern cities, if you want to craft you go to southern or base, if you want to level up you travel until you get random encounter... wasteland is harsh but actually we don't have wasteland, only cities and encounters. Difference between cooldowns and this is that with cooldowns people always have to wait for something and they are not really playing. As someone at General Game Discussion said when you craft its like 30% being ingame and 70% watching youtube or playing solitare.
This would give wasteland a soul it lacks and for moaning that stuff is hard to find, well I think "search harder" sounds better to most players rather than "wait longer".
Performance is the other side of the coin and thats something where you devs have to decide if pros outweigh cons. I think I've read somewhere that FOnline engine is capable of creating maps many times larger than Fallout 2 ever could but being able and being usable are not the same :(. And for annoying running well these maps should have their own life that should prevent them from being boring. Also excitement of possible "treasure hunting" could drive people to search such locations upside down. Everything depends only on mappers fantasy and skills so we won't get bored searching for materials yet we will not get too spoiled. Also exit grid should be accessible on every single step in such locations. I mean something like world/town button when you are already at the map. Because you simply don't change your position really so why should be swapping running for traveling at world map limited only to exit grids? So if you are not in combat you should be able to switch world map for desert and vice versa anytime you want.
EDIT: In ideal world you would come with solution to make everything on map random starting with environment, surroundings and ending with spawned NPCs and resources (kinda Diablo style). While that what should get spawned would be decided by players location, so if its desert we could get some highway, if its near shore then some fishing boats and tribals, if its ruined city then we get... ruined city. Well ideal world must be really nice place to play MMORPGs.
But when I remember few years ago something like Fallout MMO was pretty much considered an ideal world kinda thing. When I remember few months ago something like new player/item skins were the same deal yet here we are today and we have both. I will just wait for you to surprise me again few months later ;).
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Yes please.
If you remember the caravan car encounters which had resources in them, then try to recall what it was like to get mats from them: it was mildly exciting because there was a chance to meet someone.
Back in time when shopkeepers didn't have caps hardly ever, I used to travel to new reno to sell my stuff because the shopkeepers there were the only ones with caps. That was truly exciting. Watching out for playerkillers while trying to make fortune.
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I really wasn't into this idea at first but then something crossed my mind - rmember how in Arcanum you were able to travel by ground instead of worldmap? Probably such thing, with several tweaks, is possible - and would also suffice "explorers" needs as well as make some rare resources available. It is big of a feature enough to deserve its own thread, but it is heavily based on OP's suggestion, so I will leave it here for now.
1) make a "randomly" generated bigger map available for each square of worldmap every time somebody enters the square (tents will probably just reset the map) and delete the map when no players remain on it. Let us call those maps "travelling" maps.
2) make "travelling" maps ~4x bigger than normal, more deviated - probably created from several "parts" (gas stations, river banks etc - lots of people love mapping and I bet you will get enough help from the community with it)
2) when someone leaves a town, tent, base or a "travelling" map, he can choose to use worldmap or continue "travelling" - this also could be set up in game options, like combat mode selection. If he chooses to "travel" - he just gets another "travelling" map
4) going through 1 such map will net him 1 square of worldmap passed (so the "travellling" map will need to have 8 different exits - to appear top left top mid, top right, mid left, mid right, and 3 bottom borders of a worldmap square if player chooses to stop "travelling" and go to worldmap.
Here are the additional up and downsides of replacing encounter maps with "travelling" maps
pros:
1) more diversity and fiun in caravan/partol/animal/slave hunting - beiiger maps and different groups of mobs on same map
2) resource gathering in between of current and Sius's system: rocks/minerals/plants are visible on the map so you kow where to go - just go to them hoping there will be no mobs/player traps in your way
3) gathering cooldowns can be removed that way, because you risk being found by mobs and other players every second you remain on map.
cons:
1) requires a lot of work to implement
2) bots are still possible in distant corners of the worldmap
3) makes loners/new players even more vulnerable to PKs (honestly i don't think it's bad, but, what the hell)
4) probably sucks
Please discuss.
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Probably such thing, with several tweaks, is possible
Not with the FOnline engine in the actual state. Also keep in mind, the Arcanum worldmap was build in many small maps and then merged into one big. We can't do this kind of stuff already because of the limited graphic set. Except if you want to have whole west coast as one flat desert ground.
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Not with the FOnline engine in the actual state. Also keep in mind, the Arcanum worldmap was build in many small maps and then merged into one big. We can't do this kind of stuff already because of the limited graphic set. Except if you want to have whole west coast as one flat desert ground.
Um. Lexx, with all respect - What exactly is not possible for the engine in this suggestion? I did not suggest using one big map, rather my idea was to use those "exporable maps sius suggested to actually travel across wasteland - and also I had some tweaks to his original idea in mind... is it still not possible? or we just misunderstood each other somewhere? =)
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It's the same problem. We are capable of creating maps with 60.000x60.000 hex. To compare, Klamath now is approx 400x400 hex. But it's already a pain in the arse just to work with Klamath. I've tested out maps in a size of 2000x2000 some days ago and it was an even bigger pain in the arse, due to performance and overal lack of overview. And really, 2000x2000 is not yet the size that one of the worldmap zones would have.
Additionaly to this comes the graphic problem I've talked about already. Let's take Arcanum... there you have specific mountain walls, that can be used over and over again from _all_ perspectives. In Fallout, there is just front and thanks to modders, the side view. Nothing more. Thanks to this, you would either have to make new walls that don't look repitative or just don't use any mountain walls, which brings me to the next point: The world is flat. Very flat. Not even the real desert is as flat. In smaller maps, like we got 'em now, this problem is more or less not existing, as you never see a really big part of the desert.
Another point is the encounter system. If every zone would be one map and you travel over the worldmap, while you get an encounter, the game doesn't know where you should spawn in the map. So it's either a totally random point or specific points which would be always the same then. Very hard to realize a good effect here.
Also you would most probably be faster with travelling manually from zone to zone than using "fast travel" via worldmap. Always depending on the zone map size and the obstacles in it.
Last but not least, the zones. We have approx 2419 zones. Okay, a lot of them are water zones, but still... Imagine just 1000 zones, this would mean 1000 maps (if you really want to go into detail). All these maps have to be huge, so they will need a lot space, so they will need a lot memory. Also it's very hard to build 1000 maps and _not_ make them look repitative. :>
So to say... the idea is heroic, but very unlikely to ever get done, if one would start such a thing.
I know, I am the destroyer of dreams.
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I like the search > reward idea.
Seeing as the biggest contribution people want to make is to make maps, this'd be a great way to channel that.
So everybody produces some interesting maps - abandoned gas stations, diners, caves, pre war bunkers, schools, hospitals, department stores, bars - all of which are abandoned and ripe for scavenging. If we just got ten people to make five maps each, 50 maps would be enough to keep things feeling fresh for a quite a while.
They might be totally empty, overrun with rats, overrun with raiders, or just occupied by friendly squatters. Here would be the primary source of crafting materials, as well as various other items - useful or just junk to sell. The items would spawn randomly - either on floors, in containers, or on the bodies of the occupiers.
Is it possible to have a random item spawning system?
Mechanics wise, I'd suggest you use the same system as special encounters.
The items in the location would be proportional to the place in the worldmap. Klamath has the safest random "scavenging areas" but also the crappiest stuff. The Boneyard has great stuff, but is also very dangerous.
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As I've noted in cons its not a one week task. Anyway I've thought about "map square linked together" idea too but it felt somehow strange so I sticked with search -> find instead. So what it does is pretty much same thing as we have now in encounters but its player triggered and a lot more complex. So encounters (current random encounters) are simply hardcoded maps with random events taking place on them right? So we have X encounter maps, that we can see while we are traveling over desert, Y for mountain areas, Z for coasts etc...
So taking it into whole new level means working with more hexes (pain in the ass BUT possible) and with random effect. I don't know how these effects work but I'm pretty sure that engine is already capable of everything that we need to get huge maps working. Getting map itself randomized is something that will require some heavy coding but most of all someone insane enough to try such thing. So that will leave us with hardcoded maps for now. And into such maps we will have to somehow manage to implement randomized events like:
- spawn points for resources
- NPCs and their behavior (so even in same map with same NPCs on same places they could act differently)
- items and additional scavenger loot
- maybe even some small events (slave running from his slaver begs for help: a) you help him he tells you his former master looked for some "treasure" here b) you stop him, slaver gives you some cash c) you ignore them d) you "undo" both of them, you are here for experiences for Christ sakes! and so one)
Also these maps should have different entrance points so people could get into same one without even knowing they are not alone. That could be done by random encounters so someone from world map enters already created map where he as the one who gets random encounter spawns at upper right corner with some NPCs attacking him, but at the other end of the map someone would be happily farming stuff. Or when you try to enter map by world/town you will have chance to get into the same location as people who are already in such map and on same world map square.
Anyway if this gets into the process and devs start to working on such feature there are 2 major drawbacks. Maps size with the need for not-boring-maps-worth-exploring is the mapping related drawback. The second thing is graphic content so the dessert will not look flat. Anyway I think there could be some nice maps done even with current game content. But it would require some deeper thoughts, plans and sketches to be done before some actual work starts.
But it would be nice to know how many encounter maps are there right now. How many for certain environments like desert, mountains, cities etc...
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I just can say, that it's very unlikely to see something like this in 2238. But well, as soon as the server files are released, the way is open for other teams to try it. I would like to see how it works out in the end, but for sure, this will need a lot time and work. I don't know, maybe it would be better to do something else then directly from the beginning.
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:'(
Is it the idea that has flaws or is it because of technical reasons? I would like to know whats yours and other devs opinion on it (we already know who voted for cooldowns ;) ).
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http://www.deadfrontier.com/
That's a pretty cool zombie-related browser based game. It basically has one bigass city full of zombies and loot. The city is divided in blocks so that when player walk towards the border of that block, he switches area. It works pretty well, but has a bit too much walking for my taste.
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What about adding scavenging? Is that deemed worth considering?
I'd argue that it would be the 'active' way to get crafting materials that people seem to want. It requires the player's attention and active participation, but also rewards them with more than just the crafting materials if they're thorough.
It encourages teamwork - some places will obviously have too many enemies for one person.
If a little more work was put into it, it would also require diversity in character builds. If you want to start up an elevator, you'll need someone with repair. If you want to talk squatters into letting you have a look around, you'll need speech. If you want to make use of the medical terminal, you'll need a doctor. So on, and so forth. Hell, you could even have the odd place that will give you hefty rewards if you've taken traps or gambling.
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What about adding scavenging? Is that deemed worth considering?
What do you mean by scavenging? Getting random loot from gathering locations? It would rock too. People could not farm specific things, but they would have to search a bit and then keep what they need and sell the rest.
It's always bothered me a bit that why do we go whack some stones when the world is full of scrap metal.
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You still dig iron ore? sucks to be you =)
Only Minerals are worth digging, perioud =)
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What do you mean by scavenging? Getting random loot from gathering locations? It would rock too. People could not farm specific things, but they would have to search a bit and then keep what they need and sell the rest.
It's always bothered me a bit that why do we go whack some stones when the world is full of scrap metal.
Yeah, basically. As well as random encounters there are random locations, such as bars. These contain the crafting materials, like ore, randomly placed either on the ground or in containers. There's also other stuff that can be looted or may need to be stolen from the NPC occupants. That kind of thing.
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Scavenging was brought up in the TLA thread too and i mentioned it a while back after I spent a couple of months playing on the russian server.After a while a couple of the more friendly russians who spoke english took me around and showed me all these places around the map that contained different items.What type of items you found depends on where in the world you were at the time.I found gas stations near Reno with junk and metal parts,farms near Modoc with hides and fruits,forested areas near Broken Hills with a shack contianing a knife and some fibers for rope.I enjoyed looking for things and exploring the map for hidden materials,it gave me a reason to leave the towns even though i knew i might die.This is kinda like what Sius is suggesting except the maps were no larger than any we have here for encounters now.They even had maps with manholes that led to sewers filled with molerats that were a bit tougher to kill on your own,but if you managed to beat them you could find 3 or 4 useful crafting items.I would personally love to see this in 2238 as an alternative to mining and looking for plants.
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yeah, people have already explore caves and harvesting ripper/small guns from those cave dwellers. The only thing we need is to have raw material/more stuff/critter/maps/small repeatable quests from those encounter maps. So no fundamental change to the current encounter map mechanism.
Also check out this thread
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=1891.0
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Well PvE pretty much does not exist right now. But encounter maps could also introduce group "dungeons". Just imagine it!
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Guys I'm up for some ore runs. Anyone coming with me? Count me in. Only one? Hmm OK, lets go.
/ 10 minutes later:
Ok m8, I'll search this part, you search yours but keep it close. I don't want to die from those stupid slavers like last time got it?! Ok so lets get busy...
/ few moments later:
You might wanna take a look at this! What? WTF?! Man lets check it out! Yeah!
Shit there is nothing down here. Hmm too bad. But have you checked that elevator? Sure I did. Its broken. Never mind lets get back.
Hey check that description when you want to use it. We might be able to get it running! Whats your repair and science? Damn it! I have my fight char here. I really hope you have radio on you...
/ later on that day:
Ok ok I'm here. Yeah, finally. Whats your problem? I have more important things to do than hang around with you two so whats the deal? Erm... fix that elevator. What? Fix that elevator... please? And how am I supposed to do that?! Dunno just try repair or science on it. Oh god, thats what I get for listening to you. OMG just do it! Ok ok, here we go...
Oh shit! It worked! Sweet! How does it come, that its still not moving? We have to power it up dumbass! Go check that terminal up there. Consider it done.
/ few seconds later:
Give it a try now. We are ready to go!
/ moment later, few meters under ground:
Woho! Thats it? Just a cave? Man Vault 13 is in the cave as pretty much any vault. Lets search this place. Hey guys whats that? Whats what? Dunno something is there in those shadows. Its probably nothing but we are already here so. I'm going to check it out. Me too.
Guys its dead end here, did you find anything? Guys? Can anyone hear me? We are wasting our time here so don't make me go there and drag your sorry asses out of here! I need my materials omg! Where are you you idi... OH F*** WANAMIN... . . . .
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Well PvE pretty much does not exist right now. But encounter maps could also introduce group "dungeons". Just imagine it!
I hope to get the part of 'Red Guy' in the film adaptation. That was fun to read.
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yeah, people have already explore caves and harvesting ripper/small guns from those cave dwellers. The only thing we need is to have raw material/more stuff/critter/maps/small repeatable quests from those encounter maps. So no fundamental change to the current encounter map mechanism.
Also check out this thread
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=1891.0
Problem is that small maps are not explorable. When whole map is not larger than 2-3 screens then its hard to explore anything there. Sure we can always add new exiting maps and places and scavenger them, but its still luck/skill based rather than effort=outcome. I mean what should decide that you encounter such location instead of basic desert map? Your outdoorsman skill? Also how should crafting system work with it? Remain the same, just add some possibilities to loot raw materials at interesting locations or something else?
Yea sure such additional locations would be great, bringing some more fun into the game but in the end they won't change much.
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As someone at General Game Discussion said when you craft its like 30% being ingame and 70% watching youtube or playing solitare.
Adding a PvE element to crafting is totally different to searching for resources.
PvE is good, searching/timeouts/hitting HP rocks is all the same thing disguised differently
Searching for resources would just be filling up time with *something* that is totally unproductive is no better than standing still waiting for a timeout.
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possibility of making random stuff to explore is most fallouty thing i can ever imagine. :<
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Adding a PvE element to crafting is totally different to searching for resources.
PvE is good, searching/timeouts/hitting HP rocks is all the same thing disguised differently
Searching for resources would just be filling up time with *something* that is totally unproductive is no better than standing still waiting for a timeout.
but it would make botting really goddamn hard and right now its 30% Ogame :/
I think idea is great.. just adjust it so it's possible to implement yet still cool
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Searching for resources would just be filling up time with *something* that is totally unproductive is no better than standing still waiting for a timeout.
But it wouldn't be totally unproductive. In these locations there would be things to kill, non-crafting items to loot, skills to use, and even maybe quests to complete. To me, that's not unproductive, that's a solid foundation of a game.
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Searching for resources would just be filling up time with *something* that is totally unproductive is no better than standing still waiting for a timeout.
Unproductive? ??? I have alway thought that exploring abandoned zones in search for resources/items is - as well as exploring post nuclear communities - the essence of the fallout. Tell me I'm wrong ;).
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Adding a PvE element to crafting is totally different to searching for resources.
PvE is good, searching/timeouts/hitting HP rocks is all the same thing disguised differently
Searching for resources would just be filling up time with *something* that is totally unproductive is no better than standing still waiting for a timeout.
But where is the line between farming resources and fighting NPCs in order to get access to old gas station/search wrecked car/enter destroyed house? With my suggestion it could be very thin line. And introducing small "not-marked-on-world-map-dungeons" could finally create some PvE challenge in the game while still Fallout rules like "no instances generated for each group" will not be broken. And yet raiding such dungeons would be pretty much undisturbed because chances of getting into the same location as previous group, finding same dungeon and following them there are pretty small.
You can say its same as cooldowns only disguised and you could be right but my idea would have to look like "huge empty map with some randomly spawned resources for players to find and move on to another map". But its not and the main thing that separates current system and my suggestion is that people would have choices here. No boring waiting and alt tabing, simply active time spend ingame with all possibilities that awaits you out there.
Just look at pool statistics. Yea its nothing compared to number of players that play 2238 but it still have some value. People are not satisfied with cooldown crafting and they never were from the day one when it was introduced. I understand that its easy manageable way how to overseer crafting and its effect on the game but this is not browser game. Its Fallout online and its great game that deserves something more than this...
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But it wouldn't be totally unproductive. In these locations there would be things to kill, non-crafting items to loot, skills to use, and even maybe quests to complete. To me, that's not unproductive, that's a solid foundation of a game.
Nothing in that sentence rules out timeouts and favours making things sufficiently hard to find that it takes as long as a timeout to find them.
But where is the line between farming resources and fighting NPCs in order to get access to old gas station/search wrecked car/enter destroyed house? With my suggestion it could be very thin line. And introducing small "not-marked-on-world-map-dungeons" could finally create some PvE challenge in the game while still Fallout rules like "no instances generated for each group" will not be broken. And yet raiding such dungeons would be pretty much undisturbed because chances of getting into the same location as previous group, finding same dungeon and following them there are pretty small.
See above.
Divorce the aspects from each other.
1. PvE good. Was stated many times we are going in this direction
2. Searching for things that are so hard to find they take as long as a timeout = having a timeout.
Nothing stops these PvE locations from being part of a timeout system.
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Nothing stops these PvE locations from being part of a timeout system.
Timeout in that sense it will have to take some time to find them so items will not be "for free". But man thats pretty ANY crafting system what so ever. But these PvE locations would not be boring as waiting for damn cooldown to expire.
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This is a waste of time and yes I'm going to stop worrying about it.No matter what anyone says here its going to come down to the same responses about trading one timer for another.We understand that your either waiting for a timer or looking for materials,but its not the time spent on crafting so much as How the time is spent.With a more active system im place it could take twice as long to make anything as far as Im concerned because all i really want to do is get away from rocks and plant stalks so i can go do something fun.I think that is what it all comes down to so YES please do trade one for the other.Six minutes isnt such a long time but it doesnt give you a chance to do anything else until its done and that I think is why it sucks.I will wait and see what you guys have up your sleeves because I know you guys want it to work as good as possible for everyone even if we dont all agree on your methods.
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I'm with Solar on this. Timeouts are the lesser evil because you can actually do stuff while it is counting down. With map searching it'd be like before the wipe where rocks could be found 50/50 on a map so you just had to do the boring "enter, check, nothing, go out" until you found one rock and then repeated it over and over until overweight. But now it'd be 5/95 to find the rocks because you should be able to find one pile every 6 minutes, so it'd be really boring.
Sius, I can already find resources and explore the world. I just dig and then go move around to kill some plants or rats. It's essentially the same and with your maps we'll all be doomed.
Fun suggestion to mods:
Do a wipe *now* and get rid of gathering timeouts. Then make maps with resources appear only 5% of the time. In a few days there'll be wipe anyway and players will get to know how search -> reward is a pain in the ass too.
EDIT:
I didn't read through even half of the thread and just skimmed through to get to GM answers, so maybe this was noted before.
Huge flaw in your idea Sius:
Because timeouts are gone, resources are generated on maps sometimes, and factions don't give a damn about anything other than PvP, groups of people will enter location, see "interesting" rats or other stuff... And ignore it looking for items.
See, the faster they get to resources the more they'll get. And distractions such as "interesting" stuff are not interesting for them. So while a casual player can go investigate, they'll simply rush through the map, say "CLEAR" and rush through another. Again and again. Because the only thing limiting resources amount is luck and number of people searching. So big factions in two days will start saying "gay" and "this is stupid, remove searching," and, "why do I have to go through twenty maps to find stuff? this is lame."
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I'm with Solar on this. Timeouts are the lesser evil because you can actually do stuff while it is counting down. With map searching it'd be like before the wipe where rocks could be found 50/50 on a map so you just had to do the boring "enter, check, nothing, go out" until you found one rock and then repeated it over and over until overweight. But now it'd be 5/95 to find the rocks because you should be able to find one pile every 6 minutes, so it'd be really boring.
Current gathering timeouts are bad, 6 minutes is not enough to do much and being forced to check in every 6 mins or so to maximize production is definitely not fun or entertaining. Sius idea wouldn't be anything like "check location, leave", but "explore location, leave". The difference between checking and exploring is that when you explore, you might meet quest related things, nice random loot, enemies, friends or victims. There's much more interaction.
3) Factions don't give a damn about anything other than PvP
1, 2 & 3 combined mean that groups of people will enter location, see "interesting" rats or other stuff... And ignore it looking for items.
See, the faster they get to resources the more they'll get. And distractions such as "interesting" stuff are not interesting for them. So while a casual player can go investigate, they'll simply rush through the map, say "CLEAR" and rush through another. Again and again. Because the only thing limiting resources amount is luck and number of people searching. So big factions in two days will start saying "gay" and "this is stupid, remove searching," and, "why do I have to go through twenty maps to find stuff? this is lame."
This is what they are doing right now and there's not much that can be done about it, but the system suggested would definitely bring more good than bad, it would fix few bad features and totally bring more interactivitiy. In addition If there was a chance to meet other players in those maps, people would not just rush through them because it could get them killed.
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I think people are imagining the search > reward system to be like a bad game of hide and seek.
Think of it instead like a self contained quest area, with the reward being crafting items and other loot.
You could power through it and grab what's instantly available, but you wouldn't get anything good. If you invest more time into it, you're rewarded more. If you're with a group of people with a diverse set of skills, you're rewarded more. If you've brought more than your jumpsuit and tools, you're rewarded more. Then getting resources becomes more than just emptying your inventory back at your tent, and clicking in and out of encounter maps with your crafter alt.
If you want the best stuff, you'll have to do what the NPCs want. Or find/craft/steal a rope in order to get down an elevator shaft. Or exterminate deathclaws to get into the area with the best materials. Or repair a generator. Or science up a terminal to get it producing bio med gel. Or hell, even gamble with NPCs.
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Think of it instead like a self contained quest area, with the reward being crafting items and other loot.
Then think of this, but when you get that reward you have a 5 minute timeout applied.
Instead of then having to make these places hard enough that it takes 5 minutes to get through for a level 21 (which is an almost impossible task) you can forget about that fiddly requirement and it makes the whole process easier.
Obviously we hope the time that things of interest are happening matches or exceeds the timeout, so there is no waiting, but if players become good enough/there are easy ways round it/bugs then we always have the timeout insurance, so the economy doesn't get flooded.
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this whole thread looks somewhat fammiliar...
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52314&highlight=drakonis
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How about just make another way to gathering, like searching/scavenging, and keep existing way of gathering with cooldowns for rocks, junk, wood and so on? You can either go search for some resources with couple mates, like real Boneyard scavengers, and find goods, adventures or death, or take a hammer and stick to some rock pile for a longer while.
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this whole thread looks somewhat fammiliar...
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52314&highlight=drakonis
Or kinda like upgraded http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=727254&highlight=#727254
To blahblah:
1) Timeouts are gone.
How is this in any way flaw in my suggestion? Sure cooldowns are easy way how to manage things but they are also the most boring aspect of the game and incredible time killers. I believe if some global vote pool is done most of players would vote against current crafting system calling for some change. I'm one of them and I suggested something that would keep me interested even when I have to do the boring stuff (find mats to craft from them). If the idea supports cooperation, pve, exploration then why on earth you talk about it like its some evil that will corrupt the game economics and ruin it. Yes its challenging to implement it, yes its hard to get it balanced, but hell yes its fun.
2) Resources are generated on maps sometimes.
That would be very rare case and only for some resources like metal parts, wood or such, that can be found on "natural" spots like wood near destroyed family house, metal parts at wrecked car etc. Main idea is to get material sources randomly spawned so people would have to find them and obtain raw materials from them.
3) Factions don't give a damn about anything other than PvP
Ok I don't get it how this is a flaw again. You mean that gangs would scavenger such locations in greater numbers, getting their items faster than others? Well but thats also part of the main idea and anything against that system (try harder=get more) would be... absolutely stupid. You want more search harder or bring some friends. No stupid mining bot will help you now, no alts or cheats to bypass cooldowns, everything is based only on you and your effort to obtain resources. And I also have to remind you that there is possibility of new supplier/consumer economy that could start existing thanks to this. People could actually start cooperating among themselves, because its not an easy task to get all materials together so its easier for some just to buy and craft from them and then sell the stuff etc. But now its pretty much like everyone is universal factory for himself and he just choose what he will produce and then wait, wait, wait, wait...
I think this is not bad idea at all, its just hell of a job to get it implemented and thats main reason why it will most probably never happen. But if it should get implemented then imho its success/fail would depend only at developers and how they would process and balance it and not on any flaws in design. Yeah balance is always pain whenever its weapon strength or crafting "cooldown" but damn it you don't make this game to be simple and easy (=boring more or less), do you?
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To blahblah:How is this in any way flaw in my suggestion?
Sigh. I wrote that in a hurry and it was morning so I organized it badly. Re-read that one sentence in my post again please.
I'm not against trying harder equalling getting more, but I'm just trying to show you that unless every location has good stuff, then the idea will be even more hated.
Factions will not try harder, but just look for ways of getting stuff fastest. So devs will need to adjust every timesink accordingly to a 10-man party of level 21 biggunners & assorted specialist alts.
Unless you create new components needed to craft stuff, the only resources required will be iron ore and minerals. So for a group that large to get 5 ore per member only once every 6 minutes means that you'd have to fight 50 supermutants and 10 laser-shooting cows for each source of resources. So people other than massive gangs will be fucked over once again.
If you implement other items needed for crafting, then these maps will be perfect for griefing.
Imagine going down an empty elevator shaft with your team. You're all, "wow. let's see what's inside," and when you get down you get killed by three guys in powerarmour with avengers shouting "HA HA" and farming noob gear.
Cooldowns are time killers, but only when you can't do anything then. But you can! After the wipe mods say you'll be able to do even more, and that's a big :O from me, because now I already can craft, like, 200 bullets and a sniper rifle and go shoot stuff without having to wait at all thanks to the cumulative timeout goodness.
The only people who are butthurt with current timeouts are factions who want to maximise production. Sane players just do other stuff after the timeout starts and after 15 minutes of having fun realize "oh. look at the time. I can get some more ore now." If you want to be 100% efficient, tough luck. It's a fair price to pay, if you ask me.
With the system you suggest, unless devs magically start shitting rainbows and code so that a perfect implementation is done, factions will either be overpowered, or crying bloody murder.
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The only people who are butthurt with current timeouts are factions who want to maximise production.
Yeah, everybody else just love it.
Sane players just do other stuff after the timeout starts and after 15 minutes of having fun realize "oh. look at the time. I can get some more ore now."
Now tell us what exacly is that you can do in 6 minutes.
If you want to be 100% efficient, tough luck. It's a fair price to pay, if you ask me.
Or use autoclicker.
factions will either be overpowered, or crying bloody murder.
If you compare a faction to a lone player capabilities the yes - factions will always be "overpowered".
I think that the only reason why the devs are so strongly against this idea is that they know how much work it would require. I don't really believe that they really see scavenging instead of cooldowns as a bad suggestion - they just certainly have a lot of other issues to deal with :-\.
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Everyone who is hungry for scavenging-crafting system visit TLA. There are no timesouts for gathering, you just enter random loactions on the map and gather stuff. And belive me it gets really boring after 3 times.
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Everyone who is hungry for scavenging-crafting system visit TLA. There are no timesouts for gathering, you just enter random loactions on the map and gather stuff. And belive me it gets really boring after 3 times.
I really doubt they have anything like this suggestion working there. They simply have raw materials waiting for them at encounters instead of waiting for cooldowns as we do. I've read posts here at forum from people that think TLA crafting>2238 so its 100 people 100 tastes. But cooldowns are something I would expect at browser game and not in Fallout. Browser games are designed that way so you have your 30-60 mins of fun but after that you simply turn it off and do other stuff until its ready again next day. But such thing does not work for MMORPGs. People play it because they want to experience oldschool game from bright new perspective and eventually have fun and/or relax while playing. And majority of people simply does not find anything entertaining in waiting. And don't tell me you can do other stuff while cooldown counts. Yes you can, but its like saying you can go drive your new car but you have to wait every 6 minutes for fuel to magically appear in tank. Yes of course you can leave your car alone for those 6 minutes and go admire butterflies or play Snake game at your mobile phone but god damn it you want to drive your car at that time and not to be forced to "do other stuff" just to kill some time while waiting for cooldown.
No one is trying to say that this will morph boring waiting into juicy running around with smile on your face all the time, but hell there are options what you can do, there are choices and eventually its possible to avoid boring part at all if you are rich enough to afford it. Farming materials imho will be always the most boring part of the whole crafting while learning how to craft new items and eventually craft/modify/sell them will be the fun part. Search->reward will not change that, but it can add real choices what to do with your time while you are on the hunt for materials and make it a little bit more fun. And again look at the pool. If we divide undecided people in two then its 80% for and 20% against this suggestion...
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I think that the only reason why the devs are so strongly against this idea is that they know how much work it would require. I don't really believe that they really see scavenging instead of cooldowns as a bad suggestion - they just certainly have a lot of other issues to deal with .
Unbelievably (and for the last time) I will say this again.
There would be no difference between a timeout system that makes use of "active" features and a system where things are hidden and makes use of active features.
Why it (meaning taking timeouts away to be replaced by hiding stuff) won't be done is 1. Its far too technically demanding and 2. We aren't in the habbit of undertaking masses of work for no net gain.
The "active" part of the suggestion was said several weeks ago to be underway. In fact it was avv's suggestion in IRC that I shamelessly stole and then modified. (Although you are correct about it requiring a lot of work :P )
Or use autoclicker.
After the wipe I expect autoclickers will just be killed and looted. 8)
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The "active" part of the suggestion was said several weeks ago to be underway. In fact it was avv's suggestion in IRC that I shamelessly stole and then modified. (Although you are correct about it requiring a lot of work :P )
Actually it was Sius' post in nma forums which I tried to introduce.
But if there is some sort of interactive gathering system on the assembly line, then we'd better check it out first.
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Unbelievably (and for the last time) I will say this again.
There would be no difference between a timeout system that makes use of "active" features and a system where things are hidden and makes use of active features.
Why it (meaning taking timeouts away to be replaced by hiding stuff) won't be done is 1. Its far too technically demanding and 2. We aren't in the habbit of undertaking masses of work for no net gain.
The "active" part of the suggestion was said several weeks ago to be underway. In fact it was avv's suggestion in IRC that I shamelessly stole and then modified. (Although you are correct about it requiring a lot of work :P )
Well I see you don't think that people bored/people entertained has any differences between each other so its pointless for me to try to defend this suggestion.
And just for a record I don't know what avv suggested at IRC but I can assure you this idea of mine is as old as the whole cooldown crafting since it was suggested at NMA few months ago.
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We aren't in the habbit of undertaking masses of work for no net gain.
Well to be honest, I think that replacing the the current gathering system with just anything else is already a net gain. Forcing a player to stay and click in one point once a 6 minutes is bad, and do really have a hope that it's only a temporary solution.
After the wipe I expect autoclickers will just be killed and looted.
I really look forward to see what you have prepared for us :).
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I really look forward to see what you have prepared for us :).
If you keep mining at the same spot for over 1 hour it will be reveal in the world map as a big yellow dot. ::)
and I sincerely think Sius' idea is pointing to the good direction. Anything which will enhance the PvE/teamwork/role playing aspects of the game is good. That's what FOnline 2238 is currently lacking. Talking on the PvP side, it would be more fun if you don't lose the most valuable item after you die or if it was not such a pain in the ass to craft one.
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And majority of people simply does not find anything entertaining in waiting. And don't tell me you can do other stuff while cooldown counts. Yes you can, but its like saying you can go drive your new car but you have to wait every 6 minutes for fuel to magically appear in tank. Yes of course you can leave your car alone for those 6 minutes and go admire butterflies or play Snake game at your mobile phone but god damn it you want to drive your car at that time and not to be forced to "do other stuff" just to kill some time while waiting for cooldown.
You are intentionally ignoring the solution :/
Your car example is so flawed I can't even fix it.
Crafting/Gathering is not fun. So timeout does not prevent you from having fun. Every player-killing bastard here will agree PvP and killing others is fun. What is not fun is making the weapons required.
So you can either waste 6 minutes (or MORE if you are unlucky searching) to find materials, or you can find materials in 10 seconds. Leave it in base. Go kill someone, or do other stuff that takes more than 6 minutes and when you are done you can get some more materials.
What poor Solar is trying to show you is that both solutions need to take 6 minutes or more to get 5 iron ore. Either you get it instantly, do whatever you want ingame and then get some more. Or you actively waste your time doing stuff you may not like at all.
Everyone wants to be 1000% best and get everything fastest they can, and that forces people into the habit of waiting for the timeout to end. Stop waiting, start playing. And gather the other 5 ore 20 minutes later after you are done.
Now tell us what exacly is that you can do in 6 minutes.
Did you even read what you quoted?
Timeout is 6 minutes. Player want million items. Player wait. Player is not powergamer? Player does stuff. Player finishes stuff. Timeout gone. Player did more than timeout. So timeout gone. Now can click. Timeout again. Do stuff again. Player notices that again timeout ended 10 minutes ago.
Simple enough?
Nobody but you yourself are forcing you to WAIT for the timeout. NORMAL PEOPLE DO OTHER STUFF LIKE SHOOTING RADSCORPIONS.
Or use autoclicker.
Players cannot get to level 999 and have 300% of every skill. That means they create alts.
I know! Let's fight alting by getting rid of level cap and making every player able to have 300% of all skills so that he won't need alts.
Wrong approach dude.
If you compare a faction to a lone player capabilities the yes - factions will always be "overpowered".
There's a difference to dying when attacked by a group - faction. And dying when attacked by just one person because he is part of a group which can create 50 CAs in a day so everyone wears one and does not even mind losing it in random fights.
Well to be honest, I think that replacing the the current gathering system with just anything else is already a net gain. Forcing a player to stay and click in one point once a 6 minutes is bad, and do really have a hope that it's only a temporary solution.
Who is forcing you to stay now? Who? Nobody.
But with this suggestion, you will be forced to stay in one place and look around endlessly for 6 minutes or more to get what you want.
I really hope this gets implemented. Everyone will complain when they realized it's not going to magically make things faster.
EDIT
@ below:
Notice how 6 out of 18 people said they play the game while 'waiting'.
You have to understand there is a difference between, "I need to get this done with absolutely 0 seconds wasted," and, "I'll gather some ore while playing."
If you don't want to waste any time then you're stuck with being bored. If you're smart, you enjoy the game. And by the way, I can't even begin to express how insanely awesome the cumulative 60 minute crafting timer is.
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Nobody but you yourself are forcing you to WAIT for the timeout. NORMAL PEOPLE DO OTHER STUFF LIKE SHOOTING RADSCORPIONS.
Oh. (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=1218.0)
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Oh. (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=1218.0)
"Normal people" :p
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"Normal people" :p
Oh, the bitter developer sarcasm...
Speaking of which, statements like this always improves personal opinions.
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You have to understand there is a difference between, "I need to get this done with absolutely 0 seconds wasted," and, "I'll gather some ore while playing." If you don't want to waste any time then you're stuck with being bored. If you're smart, you enjoy the game.
And you have to understand that people are bothered by that never ending circle of wait-action-wait. When they start an action they want to end when they fulfill their goal or at least some part of it (or whenever they decide its time to move on) and no one wants to get interrupted during their action by some forced "ok now its time to do other stuff, before we allow you to continue in your original action for a while". Thats just bad game design and not entertaining at all. You say if people are smart they will do other stuff. Yeah like killing radscorpions which is absolutely not possible in my suggestion because you have to run around endlessly like Forrest Gump right? Tell me what do you mean by "do other stuff that takes more than 6 minutes" exactly? What do you do when you play this game and you do not craft at the moment or you wait for cooldown? You go out level up a bit? You chat with some friends? You PvP a bit? Every single one of these is possible in my suggestion and some of it even taken into whole new level (like an actual PvE and player cooperation). Man you just see it from bad angle.
Crafting/farming is pretty much one man task and you can establish your own manufacture on it right now. But try to look at my suggestion rather not only from crafting point of view but from "playing the game" point of view. Such maps should be designed to be the playground for pretty much everyone starting with crafters, PvE seekers and ending with PvPers. So its not like you decide to get some materials farmed and run to the wilds just to get some of it to craft this particular item. Yes you can do that, but it would not be necessary because during an actual leveling/PvEing/scavengering you simply stumble across resources and you farm them as you continue your journey through the map. Only those who would focus on farming will get some better reward but there again people could absolutely ignore boring farming and simply pay people that will farm for them. But now nothing like this is possible because obtaining mats is easy and if you wait 30 or 50 minutes, hell whats the difference I'll at least get my room tidied up...
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And you have to understand that people are bothered by that never ending circle of wait-action-wait. When they start an action they want to end when they fulfill their goal or at least some part of it (or whenever they decide its time to move on) and no one wants to get interrupted during their action by some forced "ok now its time to do other stuff, before we allow you to continue in your original action for a while". Thats just bad game design and not entertaining at all. You say if people are smart they will do other stuff. Yeah like killing radscorpions which is absolutely not possible in my suggestion because you have to run around endlessly like Forrest Gump right? Tell me what do you mean by "do other stuff that takes more than 6 minutes" exactly? What do you do when you play this game and you do not craft at the moment or you wait for cooldown? You go out level up a bit? You chat with some friends? You PvP a bit? Every single one of these is possible in my suggestion and some of it even taken into whole new level (like an actual PvE and player cooperation). Man you just see it from bad angle.
Crafting/farming is pretty much one man task and you can establish your own manufacture on it right now. But try to look at my suggestion rather not only from crafting point of view but from "playing the game" point of view. Such maps should be designed to be the playground for pretty much everyone starting with crafters, PvE seekers and ending with PvPers. So its not like you decide to get some materials farmed and run to the wilds just to get some of it to craft this particular item. Yes you can do that, but it would not be necessary because during an actual leveling/PvEing/scavengering you simply stumble across resources and you farm them as you continue your journey through the map. Only those who would focus on farming will get some better reward but there again people could absolutely ignore boring farming and simply pay people that will farm for them. But now nothing like this is possible because obtaining mats is easy and if you wait 30 or 50 minutes, hell whats the difference I'll at least get my room tidied up...
Come on, Sius, here you can read what devs think of the idea.
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=2310.0
The topic was closed.
Not only you is pissed about the fucking waste of time calling cooldown. The server could be flooded with items - suggestions to avoid it were made, but hit deaf ears.
That's why bot miners are being developed, i say it again.
Just eliminate the cause. Get prospectors in Redding sell Ore and Minerals. What are they doing, jetting themselves off all the day? Where comes the money?
IT'S A MINER CITY GODDAMNIT! THEY MINE AND SELL STUFF!
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You know what they say about lies. Repeat a lie a thousand times and it becomes the truth. I'm just hoping it works with suggestions too...
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Sius, i dont believe you will succeed.
I suggested my Nuclear waste caves.
It will not take much time to realize it. Only take one or two longest caves map, add green area to their ends (green area = transport to other part of the city/map) and make one little map, with storage like 10-20 hex, with one generator, one cage, one computer. And add radioation, some critters (firegeckons, because they are best). And the result was: Lexx: dont think adding firegeckons will balance the caves..
So they did not get the point, that we need more (at least ONE) PvE where we can use something else than our weapons skills (lockpick, science, repair,..).
No, they dont get it, that this kind of repatable actions can hold the players inside the game.
They rather make 3D (like major game developers) but they did not realized, that fallout was about content, not about super 3D graphics.
Why they need 3D if they were unable to add purpose to most of smallguns, cold guns,... in the past 8 months? To add new weapons, HAHA. I dont think that new hair color or.. will hold me in the game. Hurray, i have new basic skin, i will more enjoy endless leveling, 3 quests, clicking on minerals than ever. Hurray. What is the logic???
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You know what they say about lies. Repeat a lie a thousand times and it becomes the truth. I'm just hoping it works with suggestions too...
I wish you were right. Most things a player wish doesn't make sense from the developers point of view.
I don't get it.
Are we perhaps testing only the mechanics in beta? Fun in gameplay seems for now just a very secondary priority.
Does it makes sense making gameplay improvement suggestions at all?
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And you have to understand that people are bothered by that never ending circle of wait-action-wait.
Like. I. Said. Your suggestion will most probably end being search-die-search. And the current situation is action-click-action. Gathering any resource takes 5 seconds after which you can continue doing what you were doing. Be it PvP, PvE, or nagging people in NCR.
Yeah like killing radscorpions which is absolutely not possible in my suggestion because you have to run around endlessly like Forrest Gump right? Tell me what do you mean by "do other stuff that takes more than 6 minutes" exactly? What do you do when you play this game and you do not craft at the moment or you wait for cooldown? You go out level up a bit? You chat with some friends? You PvP a bit? Every single one of these is possible in my suggestion and some of it even taken into whole new level (like an actual PvE and player cooperation).
This is why one dev here said that this suggestion requires a lot of work for no big benefit. You admit it yourself all of this is already possible. And new encounters will probably be added "Soon".
I won't be able to PvE in your suggestion because it's real-time only. I haven't been playing Quake for the last ten years of my life so my 50HP low-level character will get murdered by anything with a gun very fast. And when someone joins my encounter then that 12AP I have sacrificed a lot to get is useless and won't let me escape anyway.
The "timeout" for getting resources will stay the same even with your suggestion. Only difference is that it will be adjusted to the standard of a 10-person party of powergamers. Because if not, the game will be flooded with easy to get items. You can't have an encounter map with ore appearing somewhere in the open, because factions will keep entering new encounters to get just that one without any effort. So single players won't be able to even make a gun for themselves.
Such maps should be designed to be the playground for pretty much everyone starting with crafters, PvE seekers and ending with PvPers.
A crafter goes in, followed by a PvE seeker, and they both die and get looted by a lucky minigunner.
So its not like you decide to get some materials farmed and run to the wilds just to get some of it to craft this particular item. Yes you can do that, but it would not be necessary because during an actual leveling/PvEing/scavengering you simply stumble across resources and you farm them as you continue your journey through the map. Only those who would focus on farming will get some better reward but there again people could absolutely ignore boring farming and simply pay people that will farm for them. But now nothing like this is possible because obtaining mats is easy and if you wait 30 or 50 minutes, hell whats the difference I'll at least get my room tidied up...
You've just explained how I play the game. I walk around the worldmap, level up and sometimes venture inside a cavern, and after every finished encounter I look around to see if there are some rocks around and my timeout finished. So I gather stuff while I play. Gathering is not considered by me as part of the game, just as a short interruption. Only thing I'd change is weight of materials. If they weighed 1/2 as much then I wouldn't have to go to a city and craft them into lighter items every time I gather them. Low ST sucks :p
The server could be flooded with items - suggestions to avoid it were made, but hit deaf ears.
Are you really thinking a rock with HP would be better than allowing players to play? The ones with deaf ears are players, I fear :/
Spend 6 minutes "attacking" rock to get 5 ore, or get ore and go play the game again after 5 seconds? I prefer the latter.
Get prospectors in Redding sell Ore and Minerals.
Good idea, but right now I think there is still a caps exploit allowing factions to get 99999999 caps in a day.
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Well I see you don't think that people bored/people entertained has any differences between each other so its pointless for me to try to defend this suggestion.
And just for a record I don't know what avv suggested at IRC but I can assure you this idea of mine is as old as the whole cooldown crafting since it was suggested at NMA few months ago.
Urgh. *Beats self in the head repeatedly*. I'm saying that there is nothing intrinsically more entertaining than trying to find something thats hard to find over timeouts, the interesting thing was not and never will be the delaying mecahnism that needs to be in there to prevent the whole system being flooded.
The wipe will see "interesting" things added to mining locations, seemingly arrived at by a game of chinese whispers from your old post on NMA. They'll either be open to PvE from NPCs, or a combination of PvP and PvE or out in encounters where you'll have to search for them.
There will also, generally, be more need to move about the world map to get all the stuff you need together and there will be reduced timeouts for the things with really long timeouts now too.
But as I've been saying, this is all possible without removing timeouts, since they have never been the problem, but the general passivity of the whole experience was :P
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Urgh. *Beats self in the head repeatedly*. I'm saying that there is nothing intrinsically more entertaining than trying to find something thats hard to find over timeouts, the interesting thing was not and never will be the delaying mecahnism that needs to be in there to prevent the whole system being flooded.
Eh its maybe first time we understand each other :D. Yes I agree completely but this was never an issue of my argues here. All I'm trying to defend is a bit of strange thing for Fallouts and thats world and environment (since we know only cities/other locations/random encounters as green circles). As I said at the end of my 1st post here I would love to see some explorable maps and opportunities to scavenger the wasteland ingame even tho cooldowns never change. Also same thing applies to the PvE aspect that is totally missing right now. And if exploration+scavenging can be combined with PvE all together in natural environment of the wasteland (without green circles) then its even better.
The wipe will see "interesting" things added to mining locations, seemingly arrived at by a game of chinese whispers from your old post on NMA. They'll either be open to PvE from NPCs, or a combination of PvP and PvE or out in encounters where you'll have to search for them.
There will also, generally, be more need to move about the world map to get all the stuff you need together and there will be reduced timeouts for the things with really long timeouts now too.
But as I've been saying, this is all possible without removing timeouts, since they have never been the problem :P
Well thats all great news but still when I hear something like timeout or cooldown then I always tend to compare it to other games and how their crafting system works without such features. Well I guess I will never get used for cooldowns.
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They rather make 3D (like major game developers) but they did not realized, that fallout was about content, not about super 3D graphics.
You have obviously no clue about what we are doing and that's why you make shit up, eh?
I tell you some news: Right now, nobody from us is working on 3d models.
Why they need 3D if they were unable to add purpose to most of smallguns, cold guns,... in the past 8 months? To add new weapons
We are adding 3d models for characters with lots of customization possibilities, because the community want's to have their characters not look like clones. And the only real way to archive that is via 3d models. Except if you want to draw thousands of images, wich I guess you don't want to do.
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Well I guess I will never get used for cooldowns.
I guess the best of both worlds is sort of 'parallel approach', where you are still doing some activities to obtain stuff, but when you obtain it, the timeout is still applied, so at minimum, you're still limited by it.
Otherwise adjusting the difficulty/chance is nightmare, and, if balanced finally, will end up with average time equal to the timeout anyway.
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We are adding 3d models for characters with lots of customization possibilities, because the community want's to have their characters not look like clones. And the only real way to archive that is via 3d models. Except if you want to draw thousands of images, wich I guess you don't want to do.
I am glad that when wipe will be done, i will be able to customize my char.
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I am glad that when wipe will be done, i will be able to customize my char.
Nope, Lordus, in case you didn't noticed: after this wipe we will have only 3D critters.
Devs will probably test if they run fine with the system, don't cause unsolvable problems and expect player user feedback with them.
Perhaps give some custom skins to various players on different machines or GMs to test how the animation reacts to input, if there's some lag, etc.
After that, they will PROBABLY introduce player customisation content if it's complete and this goal is still months away and there's still work to do.
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With this wipe, we will only include the few animal 3d models we have. Nothing more. Player 3d models will be deactivated for this time. We said this in the news and in the third dev video.
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With this wipe, we will only include the few animal 3d models we have. Nothing more. Player 3d models will be deactivated for this time. We said this in the news and in the third dev video.
Will you announce the stats of new critters soon?
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Will you announce the stats of new critters soon?
I think those will be automatically updated on the wiki by AHS-9 because that's one of the things he is responsible for.