fodev.net

Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: avv on January 31, 2012, 02:25:49 pm

Title: how should shops work
Post by: avv on January 31, 2012, 02:25:49 pm
Shops full of pointless stuff?
The guy before you unloaded his inventory full of fnfals and took all the goodies?
Feel like bursting other traders?

If you agree on these this thread is for you. If you don't have a clue what's wrong with shops, read the spoilers.


Shops should encourage players to sell them good stuff they don't need so that other players who need them can come and buy them off. Allow me to propose how this can be done. It's a wall of text, but if it scares you just gtfo.

Each shop has a limit of how much certain type of items they want to buy.
Sg merchant has limit for all sg guns and ammo in the game like this:
10mm pistol: max 5
Desert eagle: max 5
Gauss: max 5

When someone buys off one of those guns, he creates demand in the shop. What will happen is that the merchant will want to fill his supply of guns. So if you buy 10mm pistol, the merchant will want to buy it back. Once someone sells the gun to the merchant, he soon will restock an additional gun and also increases the maximum supply by one.
So if you bought 10mm pistol, the merchant has 4/5 of them. When someone sells that gun to him, after like 30 mins he restocks and now has the one that was sold +1, resulting in 6/6 10mm pistols. This way more wanted items have bigger supply.
Now you probably don't expect people buying 10mm pistols, but think of the same thing with gauss, p90 or drugs.

If some weapon isn't bought, its supply will drop slowly over time there's only 1/1 stock of it.

Prices need to be global and same for everyone and everybody. Shops have infinite caps.
Prices could vary in this way: the longer a shop is out of products, the more the salesman will pay for the missing product. However, the time it takes to prices to rise could go hand in hand with the reducing supply. So when price increases by x the supply decreases by 1. So when the product is in state of 0/1, it has biggest demand and price. But it should take time, like 10 hours before the first price increase takes place.

Benefits:
- Players handle the restocking
- Players with caps will buy the items they want
- Players who need caps and have items other people want will sell those items

Downside:
- Certain shops will become hubs of trading while unsafe town shops will be abandoned due to their unsafe nature
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: teamabyss on January 31, 2012, 02:45:46 pm
I do like the idea,
I mean seriously.
The gun store in the hub, doesnt buy guns,
and the general store guy in the hub,
doesnt buy general items.
;/
So... i resort to fruit, and other randomcrap i find out in the waste.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: marager on January 31, 2012, 03:10:40 pm
+1 billion points
This would make the game so much ....idk? BETTER? then  it is now? i really like the idea of stock and demand on the shop keepers part, because as it stands now the shops make no sense, you cant do anything alone (with one toon) and you need a ton of alts for TRADING and crafting alone, why? why is it such a bane for the developers to allow people to get rich in this game?
this feature would limit the "getting rich quickly" part for people, and will leave only room for those who are smart, fast, strong and furious to prosper in the wasteland, just as it should be
and not some 50 people who gather together from one country and then work to have an endless supply of BA's in their base, thats rediclious
also, this puts in the idea of keeping track of the MARKET,  and actually CREATES one such market, also might i add that all the shops in a single town be connected and inflounce each other? would be awesome :D
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: cemooooooooo on January 31, 2012, 04:05:30 pm
you are absolutely right !
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: Badger on January 31, 2012, 06:46:07 pm
Yeah, I've only been playing for an hour or so but I've noticed the shops are still swamped with stuff that's crafted by players and 'valuable' but nothing anybody actually wants. Healing powder, BBs, etc. Definitely worth rewarding players for producing goods that other players need/will use. And I support stores having infinite caps as a simple tweak in favour of playability.

But that needs to be reflected in crafting too - if it's easier for people to make useless gear and trade it for stuff they want, then the practical gear is too far out of reach.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: Vandal on January 31, 2012, 07:11:20 pm
I agree!
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: ThePhoenix77 on January 31, 2012, 07:13:47 pm
Has anyone seen the HIGH TECH stuff in SF shops!
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: Reconite on January 31, 2012, 10:01:56 pm
Very nice idea, but the bartering interface also needs a lot of work (if possible without Cvet changing things himself), having to scroll through tons of shit while on a damn TIMER is just not ok.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: Catoptromancy on February 01, 2012, 06:20:09 am
Mostly agree 99%. Close enough.

Downside:
- Certain shops will become hubs of trading while unsafe town shops will be abandoned due to their unsafe nature

Better items could be found in unsafe towns. Some towns could refuse to sell a certain item. A town could buy an item but not restock it, limiting availability in that town. This would force people to travel to get a different variety of items.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: avv on February 01, 2012, 11:13:58 am
Very nice idea, but the bartering interface also needs a lot of work (if possible without Cvet changing things himself), having to scroll through tons of shit while on a damn TIMER is just not ok.

All it really needs is dialogue option to see the lacking supply. The player tells the trader
"What are you missing"
And the trader answers with a list of items he needs as follows:

4/7 Buffout
3/10 psycho
500/500000 223. ammo
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: Solar on February 01, 2012, 01:15:44 pm
The new lists will already stop good stuff being traded for crap.

The penalties for the price based upon how much the trader already has achieves the same penalties to trading the same items too much.

Both of those achieve the same spirit as this suggestion without having to rewrite how traders work (Again!). 
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: Vandal on February 01, 2012, 01:46:56 pm
Solar can you explain a little bit how barter works? I mean I have an alt that has 130% barter 10 CH and I can only sell some stuff in general store (san francisco city) and others mechants won't take any of my items (guns, ammo, armors, drugs, pelts, parts, anything), why?
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: avv on February 01, 2012, 01:58:18 pm
The new lists will already stop good stuff being traded for crap.

The penalties for the price based upon how much the trader already has achieves the same penalties to trading the same items too much.

Both of those achieve the same spirit as this suggestion without having to rewrite how traders work (Again!).

Let's hope. But players have the tendency to amass items and sell them even for pitiful price if they can get what they can turn crap into useful items that. This can be withnessed with the hoards of ammo and fruits that exist in shops. If fruit or ammo is worth even one cap, it will be massed and sold. You see if bb is worth even 1 cap, you basically craft 50 caps every time you craft one dose of bbs.
So there needs to be good prices for quality items and absolute 0 for crap.
And even if fruits and ammo no longer give any money and the trader has room for example spears, knives and whatever, players will bring those. They will keep bringing junk as long as it's worth something.

Shops autorestocking is also a problem because it basically resets the shop and allows players to bring their junk there again, leaving the shop empty of actually wanted items. Restock in nutshell is "Wohoo I get to change my junk into treasures"
Restocking also means that players won't even consider selling their good stuff because they know their junk will be useful sooner or later, so they stash it and wait for restock. They might log off in the next door inside the shop and keep logging back in to check if the restock has occured.

One way to combat the two problems would be:
- Shops only restock quality items and cash but when restock occurs, the items they bought from players won't disappear. So if someone sold 5 radios 2 years ago and nobody bought them, it's still there.
- prices for items drop to absolute zero after the shopkeeper has enough
- shops buy like 3-5 pieces of same product, until it's no longer worth anything. Ammo and drugs more.

Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: S.T.A.L.K.E.R on February 01, 2012, 02:09:00 pm
I agree, you got my vote cause I hate the new shopping system.
Terrible..
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: vilaz on February 01, 2012, 03:11:33 pm
but... how... how about possibility to dismantle almost everything and crafting almost everything from basic parts?

I mean... dismantling spear would give you a chance for some junk or metal parts. Really small amount of that and low chance but still. Same for knives and other HtH weapons. Then Rope back to fibers, radio into junk and metal parts well basically everything with downward tendency.

If you have 200 spears. That would mean they were produced with:
400 junk
100 sharpened poles
100 metal parts
Then after dismantling this stuff you would get at most (let's just say) 80% of resources with maximized science and dismantler perk.

Then adding possibility of crafting high tier stuff with LOTS of low tier stuff. For example 10-20 alloys could make you one advanced alloys. 20 junk could get you electronic parts. Same for Metal parts and gunpowder with let's say some other extra easy obtainable material (junk, hides, broc flowers, flints etc.) but in enormous quantities.

So with recovered:
320 junk
80 Sharpened poles
80 metal parts

You can craft:
16 electronic part
Eh... uh... it's wood right? I dunno gluing it back to log? Meh nevermind this one.
4-8 hq metal parts
etc.

Time consuming but would give use for useless right now junk. I know spears can be sold for caps but this is just an example. All of these were random numbers just for presenting idea. It would need some balance but could work.

tl;dr
Give me 200 spears, 1000BB's, 100knifes and I'll smelt it into minigun with ammo for one or two series.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: avv on February 01, 2012, 03:17:26 pm
Vilaz you can already do that. Gather enough stuff and dismantle them with your science char and you get parts for anything. But it doesn't prevent players from hauling their stuff to shops because you can't craft everything.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: vilaz on February 01, 2012, 04:04:24 pm
Vilaz you can already do that. Gather enough stuff and dismantle them with your science char and you get parts for anything. But it doesn't prevent players from hauling their stuff to shops because you can't craft everything.

You can't dismantle spears, knifes, hammers, brass knuckles. etc. etc. and those are items which stuffs merchant pockets usually.

also you skipped part about creating HQ parts from MANY LQ resources.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: Solar on February 01, 2012, 06:16:11 pm
As I said before, new lists stop trading junk for good stuff.

Meh, easier to wait until you actually see what its like that me have to explain it all :p
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: Who Killed Bambi on February 01, 2012, 06:44:39 pm
My idea at suggestion board was about random spawn of high tear items, no matter for what stuff player buying, if it is not 1 player buying all stuff, like at gun runners, hub armor shop and other places.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: Lonelylurker on February 01, 2012, 11:05:29 pm
As I said before, new lists stop trading junk for good stuff.

Meh, easier to wait until you actually see what its like that me have to explain it all :p

Do you mean the current post-wipe lists of who will buy what, or is this some new change being planned?
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: Solar on February 01, 2012, 11:12:12 pm
The lists we currently have are the old ones. Before it didn't matter too much what was or wasn't on lists because it just meant that you had to use your barter skill to get a decent price, so those lists were rather loose.

The new ones should change things quite a bit.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: delphius on February 16, 2012, 07:15:32 am
Very nice idea, but the bartering interface also needs a lot of work (if possible without Cvet changing things himself), having to scroll through tons of shit while on a damn TIMER is just not ok.

I hate the timer. It's annoying in dialogues, but it's a KILLER in shops. I see I'll be spending about half my game time searching the forums for these annoying little bits of hell.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: delphius on February 16, 2012, 07:20:29 am
though i found this thread while searching for the TIMER issue, i have an idea which may actually contribute. i understand that the timer allows other players a chance to get their turn with an NPC. right? okay. it sucks, but i guess i get it now. my idea about shops: have items in CATEGORY CONTAINTERS. just like when you open bags in a fallout inventory or trade interface, you could open a category in a shop inventory, represented by a generic icon which symbolizes that category! yay! and even sub-categories! i.e. weapons/energy weapons
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: Vincenzo on February 18, 2012, 04:34:38 pm
I personally think it would be best, if vendors would only trade with the items specific for their trade specialization. It seems like the only right solution...
Example: GUNSshop vendor will ONLY accept caps and guns or ammo, so he will allways only have guns and ammo to sell, since he won't be buying anything else. GENERAL store - the same but opposite, he buys your gecko hides, metal parts, ropes and fruits, and other trash but you couldn't rape his inventory by selling 10000 fruits because he would only have the same kind of stuff to sell - materials and general stuff, no guns. Same goes for doctors and healing stuff, bartenders and alcohol, armorers and armor.

This would make trading more logical and instinctive (instead of going everywhere searching for some usefull stuff at any vendor you would just go to GUNS-SHOP to buy guns, GENERAL to buy general materials, etc.) And most important - it would fix the 'useless junk rape' problem, since the  more or less uselless stuff would mass at a merchant, who can only sell you other 'useless stuff' in exchange.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: ThePhoenix77 on February 18, 2012, 08:25:38 pm
I personally think it would be best, if vendors would only trade with the items specific for their trade specialization.
What about food stands? you know, as we have now got companions that need feeding.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: Michaelh139 on February 18, 2012, 10:11:40 pm
though i found this thread while searching for the TIMER issue, i have an idea which may actually contribute. i understand that the timer allows other players a chance to get their turn with an NPC. right? okay. it sucks, but i guess i get it now. my idea about shops: have items in CATEGORY CONTAINTERS. just like when you open bags in a fallout inventory or trade interface, you could open a category in a shop inventory, represented by a generic icon which symbolizes that category! yay! and even sub-categories! i.e. weapons/energy weapons
If I understand you correctly you suggest categories to search items when trading in shops.

But...  That's already been implemented.



Sadly I cannot contribute to the main topic of this discussion due to me inability to fully understand what anyone is saying for some reason.  ???
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: Elvis on February 19, 2012, 12:05:46 am
"the invisible hand of god"
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: Vincenzo on February 19, 2012, 01:05:20 am
What about food stands? you know, as we have now got companions that need feeding.
I don't rly see a problem with this. Food stands would only trade food-caps, which means the NCR Iguana-on-a-stick guy could finaly be a viable vendor.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: chocolate_chip_cookies on February 19, 2012, 06:34:10 am
Good thinking guys 8)

I would like to add an idea.
So how about, trading a half broken combat armor to trader would make it 100/100 again.
You'd sell it half-broken for the 500 - 1k and it'd be worth over 10k for sale once more.

People would want to sell, people would want to buy. It would help the economy ;)
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: delphius on February 19, 2012, 08:26:31 am
If I understand you correctly you suggest categories to search items when trading in shops.

But...  That's already been implemented.



Sadly I cannot contribute to the main topic of this discussion due to me inability to fully understand what anyone is saying for some reason.  ???

yes. as soon as i posted this, i became embarrassed to discover the truth. ah well... i am a bit noobish here.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: blahblah on February 20, 2012, 04:45:15 pm
Trader item categories are implemented? What? How? Where? :o

As for the original suggestion by the topic starter:
It's a great idea that will work only partially.
So demand increases supply, right? What would be the demand be biggest for? Things that are hard to farm.
What would people sell the most? Things that are easy to farm.
Where is the middle ground? It doesn't exist :P

Say, I want to buy a 14mm pistol and ammo for it often. Someone likes crafting, supply is full. I see it in the shop. I only need to pay for the item.
Now, my character can craft simple armours and likes killing bandits or slavers. I can offer to sell spears, (which nobody wants, so the shop is full) shotguns, (which nobody wants) leather armour, (which nobody wants) or fruit, healing powder, ropes. (all of which nobody wants)
How, in such a situation, where everything I have to offer is plentiful in encounters, can I get a 14mm pistol and ammo? The only solution I can think of is to spend lots of time crafting some stupid items, mining HQ ore, moving boxes and wasting more time on things I do not like.

Currently, I just check the store once or twice a day, see if he has 14mm. If yes I go back and bring gecko skins for sale. With the supply and demand, I would have next to no chance to get a 14mm pistol simply because everything I have is common, so players would not buy them from the trader, which means I would not be able to sell them to the trader.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: OskaRus on February 20, 2012, 05:44:15 pm
OMG guys. Look how eve online economy works please. Your ideas are ridiculously complicated and in the end leading only to more abuse, discontent and discomfort.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: blahblah on February 20, 2012, 06:41:17 pm
EVE Online economy is based on infinite money from doing missions and being able to sell and buy anything from anyone without risk. Also, there are hundreds of guns so the prices can gradually increase from ten thousand to one billion per gun.
In FOnline the devs are trying to limit the amount of caps to prevent hyperinflation and buying anything from players is very risky because unless you spend a lot of time to get to know who is a trusted seller, he can kill you after the trade and get his items back with an alt or friend.
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: Dayve110 on March 01, 2012, 03:58:44 pm
Auction house type of deal perhaps?
Put an item up for sale at a price within a certain % of its predetermined value.
If the item that is put up sells well then gradually the predetermined price will rise and vice versa.
Over time prices should stabalize based on supply and demand.

Traders would still have a place, they could each sell something a little sPecial, or offer mini quests perhaps "gather me 200 logs to replenish my stocks" or whatever for a small cap reward and karma points.

Needs some work but it's an idea!
Title: Re: how should shops work
Post by: Who Killed Bambi on March 01, 2012, 04:07:22 pm
Auction shop like in WoW sounds great :D