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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Survival Guides / Game Help => Topic started by: набегат on January 10, 2012, 12:54:56 pm
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So, the question is: molotov cocktail damage is considered as fire? will it work with pyromaniac perk?
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So, the question is: molotov cocktail damage is considered as fire? will it work with pyromaniac perk?
So 2 levels = +40 damage per cocktail?
lolz
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Use search, there you'll see that damage considered as explode, but pyro will work with it, at least it was in devs plans long time ago, I don't know if they made it or not.
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I don't think they work with pyromaniac, as they should require 100% BG or 100% throwing
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Pyro doesn't increase molotov's damage, tested. That's sad.
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I thought about it, but in the end any perk that made flamers good made molotovs insane and any perk good for molotovs was too weak for the flamer.
So they couldn't share
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Why not use percentage increase :o?
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Consistency between the other perks and the traditional version.
I generally tried to keep things as close as possible to the originals, so it felt more like an update to the perk system rather than something totally new
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But with %increase you could buff flamers the way you wanted and buff molotovs but not overpower them.
Both weapons are like "starter/low tier-weapons" for throwser and BGers, later most people switch to LSW/Minigun/RL and Grenades/Dynacords, so I think its good to have a buff for those both to add variety in weapon usage.
When we talk about the original perk system, did Pyromaniac buff molotov in F2?
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All these +X constant damage perks could be reworked to +% damage so they can be used by more weapons, even single shotting ones
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All these +X constant damage perks could be reworked to +% damage so they can be used by more weapons, even single shotting ones
I agree, also why not make perk which adds +20 damage to flamers and +10 to Molotovs instead +20 to both? :P
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I'm not really sure why we'd need a perk for one low level weapon that already has alternatives above it :P
Why no +%s, because we stay rooted in the originals. There's still enough flexibility and tools in the original set-up to have multiple niches without abandoning the Fallout conventions.
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Still pyromanics isnt good enough, and should be buffed by % instead of + damage, because there are also armor resists, and as we know even upgraded ammo got 0% DR and 0%DT so it doesnt increase damage, and high tech armors got like 25% of it.
Also you need to get close to get a shoot to enemy.
It cannot be good for farming, because ammo for it weigh too much, so there is something that need to be changed.
I suggest adding for second pyromanic perk +15% dmg instead of next +20 damage.
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Or it could just add the equivalent of 15% in a flat bonus. :-\
The damage of an improved flamer is actually pretty good. Against metal armours it actually exceeds even the newly upgraded to crazy levels Avenger.
There are also quite a few ways to get into range now too.
Very early to be writing off the flamers I think.
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Well I did special character for that, now Iam leveling up, still I dont have any prints for flamer mk2 nor that upgraded fuel, so nothing from testing, or even playing with it.
As said before, too early to talk about it.
But it might need a buff in future I think, because old avenger still will win with those flamers.
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(...) because we stay rooted in the originals. There's still enough flexibility and tools in the original set-up to have multiple niches without abandoning the Fallout conventions.
I don't mean to be an ass but after so many changes in the fallout mechanics hearing that is kinda like hipocricy...
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I think you should try it first. Then we can talk balance.
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Heh... balance issue was never mentioned by me...
Nor was it condemnation from my side... It's just reading those words you wrote something "cracked" in my sense of judgement as there's something terribly wrong with that line of yours.
I mean that after you changed drugs in previous era, now traits and perks even more (not to mention myriad of other things) it is hard to agree that you stay rooted in the originals
As for balance lemme ask you a question first - how much gaming experience do you have (devs) with your own game? (Playing as a regular player and not a GM/dev)
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I was replying to Tommo.
Changes happen, drugs didn't suit MP, perks needed changing to expand the char niches (a lot of them were reworked from van buren perks too, not totally new). Changing something which is perfectly suitable is another matter.
The flat bonus system can do anything a percentage system can, so there's no need to change.
As for balance, I played at the beginning of last wipe, I will be playing at the beginning of the season when the high priority bugs are done and I have time.
The only advantage I have are the spreadsheets with accurate formulas showing me what all the weapons do vs every armour and an accurate knowledge of what the perks do. However the real picture won't emerge for a good few weeks I think.
I would be amazed if several changes were needed though - if my ballpark guesses turned out to be perfect balance I'd die of shock :P
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About pyro for molotov:
It'll be worse than plasma nade, but you'll have alternative damage type (explosion instead of plasma), also molotov has on 3 max range less than nade, also your character will have on 2 perks less. So it can be used by flamer builds, who like to throw molotovs instead of plasmas, it'll make molotov 56-64 damage from 16-24. While plasma nade has 40-90 damage, what on 5 average damage more, so you trade 2 perks for less resource consuming, and also suffer less range. It's not OP.
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I just took pyromanic perk and it didnt even say where its damage added, or how much (even not to the maximum weapon damage like flamer Iam using now) nut still isntead of 32 - 40 dmg to brahmin I dealt like 50 damage, so it adds some.
Need moar levels to get second pyromanic, then I'am home.
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Its +20 each.
50-85 -> 70-105 -> 90-125 for a normal flamer
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I was replying to Tommo.
Changes happen, drugs didn't suit MP, perks needed changing to expand the char niches (a lot of them were reworked from van buren perks too, not totally new). Changing something which is perfectly suitable is another matter.
The flat bonus system can do anything a percentage system can, so there's no need to change.
As for balance, I played at the beginning of last wipe, I will be playing at the beginning of the season when the high priority bugs are done and I have time.
The only advantage I have are the spreadsheets with accurate formulas showing me what all the weapons do vs every armour and an accurate knowledge of what the perks do. However the real picture won't emerge for a good few weeks I think.
I would be amazed if several changes were needed though - if my ballpark guesses turned out to be perfect balance I'd die of shock :P
IMO you guys (devs) need more gaming experience to balance things out
Adding things from Van Buren is bold!
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Tactics which are quite similar to Fonline (with exception of more useful and complex environment) used %mods quite a lot.
It allowed some perks to be useful in all situations where they benefit, instead of being marginally low somewhere and extremely important elsewhere. Just look at how BRD is in F1/2/Fonline and in Tactics. IIRC tactics gives 10% damage per it's two ranks to ranged weapons, which makes it as useful to minigun as to rocket launcher. OFC that this kind of perk would need other perks that you would want instead, so it's not the only way to go (and this is still what is wrong with lifegiver, by the way), but it would at least be more than "get this if you want to use miniguns", which also translates "you need another character to play miniguns, even if you already have machinegunner".
Now you also have already mentioned pyromaniac, fast shot, bonus melee damage or living anatomy, not to mention there already are percentage mods :d.
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noone should complain about changes in game balance before making tables with calculated possible varieties of end results.
I think it all moved in good direction, question is are major specs equal? and should it be possible to make ridiculous alts for PK only? maby stats should be limited to min 3 max 9?
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Wallace, I'm happier basing it off player feedback and numbers. 1 person's experience (mine) would be quite limited in value. I'll play because I enjoy it :p
Johnny, we don't need perks to be equally useful for everything, so that's not a problem.
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maby stats should be limited to min 3 max 9?
Huh? WTF!?
@Solar I'm modding Fallout 3 and New Vegas since 2008, so I know how it is to be dev and how balancing/modding everything works, so keep up the good work :D
P.S. How many people actually work on balancing perks/weapons/armors etc.?
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Its +20 each.
50-85 -> 70-105 -> 90-125 for a normal flamer
Still in description I got (after one pyromanic)50-85, is it right, anyway I deal more damage, but still using cheaper rocket launcher is better)
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P.S. How many people actually work on balancing perks/weapons/armors etc.?
Generally, they would be some of my things.
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Wallace, I'm happier basing it off player feedback and numbers. 1 person's experience (mine) would be quite limited in value. I'll play because I enjoy it :p
So what are you...? Doing math how many players like a feature how many doesn't, wether there's any response at all or an ovewhelming one? C'mon!
I bet that you will never make you can make this game balanced untili more than half of you devs will be playing this game and feel it's balance by yourselves
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So what are you...? Doing math how many players like a feature how many doesn't, wether there's any response at all or an ovewhelming one? C'mon!
I bet that you will never make you can make this game balanced untili more than half of you devs will be playing this game and feel it's balance by yourselves
Well, I thought it's BETA. That's exactly how it works, devs go with ideas and their sense of balance, and beta-testers test it and say if it's ok or not.
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Exactly, we are also not aiming for perfect balance, we are aiming to make a system which players enjoy.
For example, I knew last season's Avenger was the best DPS weapon on the game. I could prove it using numbers and in game tests. It was continually complained about, so I understood that the "feel" of the weapon must not be correct and it got a boost (combined with some limiting factors of my own to stop it getting crazy).
I don't read one comment and rush off and implement whatever they say, I read lots of them and watch fights from sneak (helps being able to see the whole map sometimes ;)), think about if they have a valid point, spot if there are consistent themes running through them all and then come up with something which will address the problem.
At which point the process begins again.
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Exactly, we are also not aiming for perfect balance, we are aiming to make a system which players enjoy.
For example, I knew last season's Avenger was the best DPS weapon on the game. I could prove it using numbers and in game tests. It was continually complained about, so I understood that the "feel" of the weapon must not be correct and it got a boost (combined with some limiting factors of my own to stop it getting crazy).
I don't read one comment and rush off and implement whatever they say, I read lots of them and watch fights from sneak (helps being able to see the whole map sometimes ;)), think about if they have a valid point, spot if there are consistent themes running through them all and then come up with something which will address the problem.
At which point the process begins again.
Exactly!!!
You pointed good example of issue need to be balanced... How about not so good example - weapon/armor deterioration - what made you think that nerfing it sky high would benefit anyone?
So if i get plenty of buddies to argue on something here you will do accordingly? You can't judge effectively something you cannot experience...
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I didn't actually set det rate. Repair is a good example of lots of things I come up with. I get the general idea and tell a scripter - then they make sense out of my ramblings ;)
I will eventually get round to looking in to it, there's just lots of things ahead of it.
I actually did play a Minigunner at that time - and I still thought it was fine. :P However I knew people who loved being Minigunners and have opinions I don't automatically disregard (!), so I knew if these people were not enjoying playing as these characters then something was wrong, even if I considered it "balanced".
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Well repair is now player-friendly skill, that you don't need "anothetrepalt123" to repair your stuff, Iam doing it with 100% of skill and its cool
Now I got 2x pyromanic and just dealt 100 damage to some bluesuit. {:>
Can get impv flamer on hinkley?
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Solar... By "you" i didn'y mean only you but "you - devs" And some dev put that deterio rate
(personally i don't like ideas taken from F3 - but that's only my opinion...)
From what you say i see that your gaming experience is pretty limited (only minigunner some time ago... i suspect you play more guys but not very much right?). And as i mentioned it's hard to balance game the makers do not play with...
And finally something related to topic: What for helmets have explosion/fire resistance? Does it soak damage at all (if there would be solar schorcher availible just let's say it doesn't exist for the sake of this question)
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only minigunner some time ago... i suspect you play more guys but not very much right?
No, I've played many chars thanks, probably best you stop just typing random nonsense that you have no idea about. ;)
Helmets have the stats of their armours for DR/DT.
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Its +20 each.
50-85 -> 70-105 -> 90-125 for a normal flamer
If thats the case the perc is not working correctly. I just got Pyromaniac 1... Flamer still shows 50-85... i do a lot of 50-60 / 60-70 damage hits (wich shouldnt even be possible if Flamer is now 70-105) and was not able do do more than 85 damage in a single not critical hit in numerous encounters with varoius types of enemies...
Edit: BG skill is 170 at the moment if that would be of interrest
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Do these targets have armour/flame resistance?
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I tried at all kinds of rats, raiders, ghouls and even had some brahmin bbq... dont know if these dudes have ressistance against fire sorry
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Do these targets have armour/flame resistance?
I can say that pyromanic give a lot of damage , I got two of them, and deal 90 dmg to bluesuit, and 60 - 70 to brahmin now(normal flamer, no critic 2x pyromanic)
With Improved flamer and mk2 fuel I shot into CA mk2 guy - it gave 162 dmg and then 150.
I'll test more but I think its too small amount, flamer should be anti tanker weapon, but would be killable buy snipers on open terrain - thats what I think.
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60 to brahmin when you should deal at least 90 with 2 times perc... how high can a cows ressistance to fire be?! ;D
Edit: just realized they have 20% resisstance... so it could be that it realy is related to this... will look for some weak bluesuit and have some testing ;D
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No, I've played many chars thanks, probably best you stop just typing random nonsense that you have no idea about. ;)
Helmets have the stats of their armours for DR/DT.
Aww... Don't be mean =P I was just asking (with kinda placing a bet that you didn't play much, anyway question with suggestion in it is rather far from being a random nonsense now is it? ;P)
Since helmets have the stats of armor in explode/flame DT/DR then why do they show the bonus with only helmet on?