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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Closed suggestions => Topic started by: Kilgore on February 16, 2010, 11:22:15 pm
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Firstly, I would like all who don't fight to leave this poll.
Secondly:
As we can see, all massive PvP is now limited by new Town Control system with 24h permanent control, which makes almost all northern towns pretty empty throughout the day and then camped (grid/worldmap) for an hour or so.
My idea how to fix things and encourage PvP and also discourage boring camping for few hours only to get few minutes of fight:
1. Disable perm control, you should be able to capture the town whenever you like (as pre-wipe). 20min capturing seems to be working well, though.
2. Since there are some caps generated at the time the "guarding" team has perm control, divide it by 24 and spawn every hour in the footlocker.
Why limit something when we can have more battles in the north?
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Fuck the new town control system. all bullshit dont matter what side your on what faction your in its faggot gay shit. first of the system assists only GMT +1 not everyone that plays is fuck that place favoring only GMT+1 users = GAY next the telling people who controls a town tells you why not to go or why to go = GAY people shouldnt know whats going on maybe a notice [A TOWN IS BEING TAKEN OVER] would be better then saying the town or 2 TOWNS ARE BEING TAKEN OVER. or something..... TOwn control now supports people camping on world map like cock sucking mother fuckers kiss my ass if you dont like my wording... Town control should be open more control durring a given day lower the caps being got who cares... at this point its a waste of time knowing in GMT+1 i need allies to control a town because 90% of my guys are off because of the time zone... if you dont agree your GMT+1 and shut the fuck up
towncontrol now it to help fonlines favoratizm to people in that time zone alone.... system was better pre wipe.
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True.
Players in GMT+1 timezone have advantage, I wrote about it here: http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=33.0
It was December. Now, 2 months later, devs still don't give a fuck about players being in different timezones.
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Agree. Also, the town preview is too abusable, like Dusty said earlier. It should be removed or at least make some cooldown on preview.
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if it was up to me towncontrol would be perfict but its up to Devs and they dont care about it
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I agree with that...
If we want to make that harder :
- A gang can control a town whenever they want in a day. At the end of the day, we compare how long (in the day) each team had control of the town and then the winner obtain caps (or something else) and the loser...nothing.
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Maybe you should use less words like "gay" and "faggot" if you want that someone takes you serious.
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+1 for Kilgore
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Maybe you should use less words like "gay" and "faggot" if you want that someone takes you serious.
Well, the point is that, technically speaking, the current town control system is kind of gay ::)
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With such a vocabulary and aggressive posts, don't expect devs to bother to read that thread.
Edit : Thread moved, does not look like a faction announcement ;p
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With such a vocabulary and aggressive posts, don't expect devs to bother to read that thread.
The vocabulary used here is a clear indication of the scale on which this system failed. Being angry doesn't mean you don't have a valid point. For example, if you consider logic:
a) f**k, sh*t, every square is a rectangle, goddammit! is just like
b) every square is a rectangle.
The ammount of negative emotions seen here should actually make the devs take it more seriously.
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You're on a quite public forum, with rules, that's the main problem of it - and in a society, everyone have to make some efforts to be understandable, unlike Psycho is, for example. If you can't comment Town Control without using "gay" or "faggot", will be hard to bring anyone's attention on it.
Note : This is off-topic, so I just leave the topic like that for now. Back to the topic please )
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before wipe Taking town system . NOW =D
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The ammount of negative emotions seen here should actually make the devs take it more seriously.
We've been asking for player suggestions for TC for a long time, don't know why you have the impression its not taken seriously :/
Anyway, The problem with allowing control at any time was that there was not much combat going on. Gangs would just go round all the cities claiming them off each other constantly. I agree more windows are needed and that those windows need to be spread equally around the 24 hours though. The intention is there to do this, but not the time.
Perhaps the time should drop from 20 to 15 or 10 mins? Reducing the time you have to camp.
Also, how about giving a bonus to the reward which depends on how many members remain on the map for the entire countdown time?
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We've been asking for player suggestions for TC for a long time, don't know why you have the impression its not taken seriously :/
Anyway, The problem with allowing control at any time was that there was not much combat going on. Gangs would just go round all the cities claiming them off each other constantly. I agree more windows are needed and that those windows need to be spread equally around the 24 hours though. The intention is there to do this, but not the time.
Perhaps the time should drop from 20 to 15 or 10 mins? Reducing the time you have to camp.
Also, how about giving a bonus to the reward which depends on how many members remain on the map for the entire countdown time?
Reducing the time won't help much, people are going in during the final 5 minutes anyway. Making the "windows" smaller (like 30 minutes instead of an hour) and having two rounds for each town (one for GMT+1 and the other one 12 hours later or so) could do the trick. The bonus to the reward actually sounds awesome, but I'd say it should be counted by all the people present in the town for the entire countdown time - it'd make the defenders sort of think twice before shooting anyone they don't know, would count the allies and would give a reward for winning a really huge battle. I think that implementing this idea in a proper manner wouldn't break up the big alliances, but it would make the fighting less tedious and maybe even enjoyable. Or at least worth the wait.
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Well, we want there to be more factions than just NA vs DA or anything similar, so rewarding for allies would be opposite to that.
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Well, we want there to be more factions than just NA vs DA or anything similar, so rewarding for allies would be opposite to that.
If you want more factions, remove the "window" for combat. It doesn't allow for more than 2 factions, cause essentially even if you had 3, the 2 starting the fighting would get raped by the last one entering. Add more and the "snake" becomes even longer. If you want to have "windows" for TC, you have to take alliances into account (if you don't people are simply going to "fuck the system" and add fighting chars into a proxy base or something like that which will make the alliances much closer). Saying that you want to have "windows" and more than 2 big factions is simply schisophrenic.
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Your suggestion sucks for 1 simple reason, you are only thinking about yourself, yes it would be better for gangs, more fights and so on, but simple people with bluesuites couldnt enter towns and do quests so half of fallout spirit would be out of the game. Even now many people are crying that they lost metzger package or died when they picked reward.
I think that town could be taken for a longer time, but just not for 24h a day for sure.
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If you want more factions, remove the "window" for combat. It doesn't allow for more than 2 factions, cause essentially even if you had 3, the 2 starting the fighting would get raped by the last one entering.
At which point the 3rd has to wait out their time, when 1st and 2nd can come back. Don't think its the TC system, DA vs NA was from before new TC IIRC, rather the fact that more players win fights ... thus the arms race begins.
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At which point the 3rd has to wait out their time, when 1st and 2nd can come back.
No, because it happens/can happen on multple locations at once and not all the players are present at all times. Pre-wipe you had a few FFAs with 3 or even 4 gangs/groups, right now the very notion is ridiculous. Mostly it was about small scale skirmishes (from 5 up to 10 people per side), which were pretty fun and could take hours of non-stop fighting, which was REALLY fun. Right now combat is all about waiting, which maybe is realistic, but from a gamer's point of view sucks.
Don't think its the TC system, DA vs NA was from before new TC IIRC, rather the fact that more players win fights ... thus the arms race begins.
NA was formed to counter BBS domination post-wipe, DA was formed to nullify NA's superior numbers.
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Indeed, independently of TC. But anyway, its easy to add multiple towns being open at once to simulate the same thing
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Indeed, independently of TC. But anyway, its easy to add multiple towns being open at once to simulate the same thing
If you had all the towns open for TC between, say, GMT+1 15 till 23 that'd do the trick, yeah. But you'd have to rework the reward system to award gangs for keeping the town for a given ammount of time instead of "taking the day" there or else everything would happen at 22:30 and we'd be knee deep in the same old shit again.
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All I can say: you just convince and settle it with Solar, and we're set:)
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Well, lets try and get some consensus.
1. More TC windows.
2. Overlapping windows, 2 (or more) towns at once?
3. Bonus for members who have remained on the map for the entire capture time
4. Lower / Keep the countdown time
5. NPC "Mercs" for TC (from the other thread)
6. Unique "points" which can be used to trade from more unique items (I guess this will be combined with allying to NPC factions)
7. XP for TC?
8. Removal of other NPC's during TC hour?
9. Town reputation not affecting players in TC hour, obviously not needed if 8 happened
10. NPC "Raiders" attacking controlling factions?
Other things?
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1. More TC windows.
- Yes, definitely, or disable perm control.
2. Overlapping windows, 2 (or more) towns at once?
- Yes.
3. Bonus for members who have remained on the map for the entire capture time
- Not necessary.
4. Lower / Keep the countdown time
- Keep, it's good.
5. NPC "Mercs" for TC (from the other thread)
- Nope. Too many changes at once.
6. Unique "points" which can be used to trade from more unique items (I guess this will be combined with allying to NPC factions)
- This requires further discussion, but yes.
7. XP for TC?
- Not necessary + seems exploitable.
8. Removal of other NPC's during TC hour?
- Yes
9. Town reputation not affecting players in TC hour, obviously not needed if 8 happened
- Yes
10. NPC "Raiders" attacking controlling factions?
- Nope.
Other things?
- Cooldown for preview during TC hours.
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1. More TC windows.
Yeah, that's a necessary addition.
2. Overlapping windows, 2 (or more) towns at once?
Yes, for reasons mentioned above.
3. Bonus for members who have remained on the map for the entire capture time
Not really sure, but I'm leaning towards no - more doesn't really mean "better" and it could introduce the "let's have a proxy gang for TC" factor I mentioned above (it really would be "proper play" in that situation and the only thing that'd keep it from becoming reality would be the potential laziness of players).
4. Lower / Keep the countdown time
Keep it, countdown time = combat time.
5. NPC "Mercs" for TC (from the other thread)
Depends. If you want to have a long TC window for all towns, than yes, if 3 - very limited, if 2 - disabled. The number of "TC rounds" (ie. times the TC windows start) could also be taken into account to a lesser extent. The idea behind the militia or "mercs" was that they'd give the faction some time to react in a situation when every town can be attacked at any time, this rationale isn't really there when you know which town gets attacked because of the "attack window".
6. Unique "points" which can be used to trade from more unique items (I guess this will be combined with allying to NPC factions)
I'm really excited about this, seems to be an awesome idea.
7. XP for TC?
Wouldn't matter much since TC is basically 21 lvl char thingie and like Kilgore said it seems a bit exploitable.
8. Removal of other NPC's during TC hour?
If 9 can't be done, yes.
9. Town reputation not affecting players in TC hour, obviously not needed if 8 happened
Yeah, but only if the reaction to being hit by a stray bullet wouldn't be the entire town becoming hell bent on taking your head. Karma could be lost by such individuals, which would be enough of a punishment for not checking your fire.
10. NPC "Raiders" attacking controlling factions?
No. Exploitable by the attackers.
Other things?
Kilgore said to have a cooldown on preview during TC window, I'd go a step further. Keep the preview as it is, but when the town becomes open for TC, simply disable it. It's not even that gamey if you think in terms of "something's hanging in the air, so we're searching for those bastards with binoculars right now" :P
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" 8. Removal of other NPC's during TC hour? " nah, put all the npc's inside there homes like what would really happen :P like when the great wipe of moses, red paint above doors lol , you cant enter someones home without repercussions neways idk what im saying im drunk sorry
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" 8. Removal of other NPC's during TC hour? "
Wow. The Northern Towns are now as good as dead and you want them to become even more empty? Why don't name Klamath "Pvp Town #1", Modoc "Pvp Town #2" etc? You guys seem to hate fallout/2 pretty much. :D
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3. Bonus for members who have remained on the map for the entire capture time
i like this, but what about small gangs ? maybe lets make northencities more alive and add this bonus money buy ammout/sum? / player citizens / visitors / _alive_npcs / in town by every hour
that will force gang who controling city for making town safe , wihtout pointless killing beginners ;]
sorry dont know how to explain this - i dont speak much english ;]
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Wow. The Northern Towns are now as good as dead and you want them to become even more empty? Why don't name Klamath "Pvp Town #1", Modoc "Pvp Town #2" etc? You guys seem to hate fallout/2 pretty much. :D
It's because AI is too stupid to fend for themselves and NPCs just stand in the way all the time doing nothing but being annoying. People hide in their basements when there's a battle going on in their dwellings, so it makes much more sense than pedestrians standing in the streets like nothing's wrong. AFAIR streets got sort of empty in F2 too during some "prescheduled" shootouts (the one in Redding being the most obvious example). It just makes sense both from gameplay and setting (very much like Western movies at times) perspective.
And what's this whine about North being dead? It's pretty much alive (at least when compared with southern cities other than NCR), it's just that it's much more brutal out there. If you don't like being shot in the face you should stick to protected towns, it's been said over and over again. If you complain about being shot at in general - well wasteland is harsh and no gang is going to allow trespassing during combat for obvious reasons, so the question of NPCs being there for that hour or two comes down to whether it's really necessary to annoy the living hell out of everyone involved in the fighting or not. If you ever had to deal with constantly respawning Metzger's group because of a single burst gone wrong you'd know.
Anyway, the biggest problem with the suggestions board and the community in general is the fact that people who don't participate in a given activity (especially when it comes to organised PvP and weapon balance) have a lot to say without having a clue how the hell does it really look and play like, so the ammount of bullshit is at times totally out of proportion and some stuff that gets implemented really bogs the game down. Most of the issues that turned the TC and PvP play from very enjoyable to laborous and boring like TC-windows and oh-so-abusable preview (not to mention parley) can easilly be linked with the misconceptions and incessant whining some of the NCR dwellers exhibit, so I think it's high time they shut the hell up and let the devs handle it in cooperation with people who actually do participate in gang-related stuff.
Let's face it Surf Solar - even if all the stuff you think is good for TC was implemented, you still wouldn't come cause you're not really interested in this part of 2238 experience. The chance that devs are going to remove TC in total is realistically speaking nill (remember how 2238 started out as a faction mod?), so why do you bother with people who thoroughly enjoy this part of the game? Wouldn't your energy be spent more productively if you invested your time discussing quests, trade and other NPC-related matters? 2238 is big enough for all of us and trying to mess with features you don't like and don't use doesn't help anyone. Just let the PvPers talk about PvP and enjoy their part of the cake and take good care of yours.
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I agree about making wider time windows. Also to prevent last 5min attack it could be changed to next way:
E.g. capturing time is 18-21 in Den and Modoc.
GangA controlling Den at previous day. If GangB attacks, then they capture town in 20 min. If GangC try to recapture, limit will be reset back to 20 min. If GangA, who have city before recapture it, cooldown will be reset to 0min. But if some gang (B/C/etc, except A) managed to capture town, then no capturing is allowed until next day.
This will lead to situation, when it will be impossible to control all towns by one gang. Bigger gangs could try to capture several cities, but it will be hard for them to protect all next day.
Also town could be attacked any time (so defending, will be bored most of time). If 2 big gangs fight for one city, 2 smaller could try to fight for another.
20 minutes is good time, allow 2-3 full attacks by one faction. If time is reduced, then capturing will be much easier by big alliances.
NPC during TC
I completely disagree that they should be removed, or reputation changes disabled. Start thinking: you are trying to get control of town, and killing citizens. No town will join to you then, because if you kill npc, they start to hate you. And if faction have good reputation in town (tries to play carefully), then it should be easier for them to control, as NPC will not disturb you.
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well, would you stand in the middle of a firing range, between 20 or so guys with assault rifles on both sides? one of the bullets is gonna hit you if you are dumb enough to say yes, the AI is nonexistent in this game, it is more like AS (artificial stupidity) the npcs are dumb as hell, so removing them from the streets during the big battles sounds like a great idea.
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Militia need to be fixed. As long as they're useless town control is just back to which group has more level 21s.
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Make the TC countdown variable, perhaps random 15-35 minutes, minus random 1 to 3 minutes per gang member above minimum required.
Make the ANNOUNCED TC coundown be inaccurate, say 10 minutes plus random 1-15 minutes, with announcement delay of 2-10 minutes. This way it will sometimes be a surprise- so scouting is encouraged. This will sometimes result in announcement of control attempt AFTER the town is controlled: Fog Of War.
Town Control time also could be variable: random 60-120 minutes minus random 3-6 minutes minutes per gang member that leaves during that time. No points for coming back as that could be gamed.
Make the Town Chest fill immediately upon conquest and refill every random 10-20 minutes.
Chest money/etc. is affected by number of citizens killed and also by number of transactions done/amounts transacted by
the traders during TC time, not counting any transactions made by controlling faction members.
This would be gamed, too! Just make non-aligned traders and have them buy/sell back and forth.
Only way to really guarantee "Protective Behavior" is:
DRUMROLL
Have the game generate fake bluesuits to appear in town and wander around, pretend to trade, etc.
Killing them reduces chest amounts and TC time left.
TC time left is also never known for sure.
Of course, with crappy TC time the militias are too expensive.
I would get rid of all fancy weapons and make militia be Leather, Combat Leather, pistols weaker than 14mm pistol, shotgun, sawed off shotgun, molotovs, hunting rifles, occaisional 10 mm SMG.
They give warning to any with a gun in active slot like in NCR inner town but with only a 4 second warning.
Anyone tagged hostile from this gets mobbed.
Exception is made for members of the controlling faction and for designated allies (how to designate them?)
No crappy melee militia.
Also militia cost 300 caps instead of 1500 and you can buy 30 instead of 20.
Edit:
Perhaps renewal of TC is possible with a window at end of TC period-- controlling gang members in town will recieve warning that time is almost up-- random 3-6 minute warning.
In this time TC can be restored and Militia can have term extended for just 20% of original cost.
Pay lump sum for all or less with Say Button: lesser amounts result in some Militia dissappearing in proportion to the reduced payment.