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Other => Closed Beta => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Winter 2011/2012 => Topic started by: runboy93 on December 12, 2011, 06:05:41 pm
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Bonus Rate of Fire, Bonus HtH Attacks = 225% SG/Unarmed skill need to take -> 180% should be more than enough.
Blessed Are the Weak = 125% FA -> Something like 100% sounds better.
Hit the Gaps = 150% Unarmed -> 180% same amount as Bonus HtH attacks.
Lifegiver = 5EN -> 6EN, nobody takes 5EN.
Lifegiver+ = 6EN -> 7EN, because now normal lifegiver got 6EN requirement.
Lifegiver++= 7EN -> 8EN, because lifegiver+ got 7EN requirement.
Medic = 175% FA -> 150% FA
What you think about these?
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What I don't understand with lifegiver is that why does it require high endurance to take when those who have low endurance need it most?
FA perk requirements are indeed very high. That's because now that level cap is 24 (more skillpoints) and no combat perk has intelligence requirement players will choose as low intelligence as possible to just get the gunskill at good level and then perhaps some doctor. 150FA is pretty rare in current nonwiped version, let alone 175. After wipe with these settings players might not invest to fa at all.
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Bonus Rate of Fire, Bonus HtH Attacks = 225% SG/Unarmed skill need to take -> 180% should be more than enough.
Lifegiver = 5EN -> 6EN, nobody takes 5EN.
Lifegiver+ = 6EN -> 7EN, because now normal lifegiver got 6EN requirement.
Lifegiver++= 7EN -> 8EN, because lifegiver+ got 7EN requirement.
What you think about these?
About bonus rate of fire and HtH , yes they need to be lowered.
Lifegiver should be like 4en , 6en , 8en , nobody sets uneven values for endurance , maybe only new players and that's a mistake.
FA perks , well they can be as high they are right now , but one thing doesn't make sense why all those perks require only FA .... for example blessed for the weak should require doc since it's the skill that depends on healing weakness at all.
What I don't understand with lifegiver is that why does it require high endurance to take when those who have low endurance need it most?
Yes , the same goes for strong back perk , only concerning str.
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perks are what you get for being exceptional, not for being unexceptional. They make you better at what you're good at rather than overcoming what you're poor at.
Re: Blessed are the weak. It makes sense as it is to me. Your FA skills are just so good that you've learned to perform it even if someone is weakened.
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I HAVE IDEA. leave perks just what they are but change lvl when you can get them.
for example lvl3 - lg
lvl 6 or 9 - lg
lvl 12 - lg
and someone who need lg most and dont know wchich perk should he take on lvl 3-6 will be fine.
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they should change lvl when you can get 1rst and 2nd live giver.
for example 1rst lg - lvl 3/6
2nd lg - lvl 6/9
3rg lg - lvl 15
because sometime you will have to lvl up more about 1 or 2 lvl more to get needed reuires for some perks like more crits/brd and others. I am worried that many players who didt know how to build char after wipe wont be able to take right perk at current lvl
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Speaking of requirements:
Bonus HtH Attacks 18 Melee/Unarmed 225% HtH attacks cost 1 less AP
Who in Cthulu's name would ever put 225% in these skills, when ~175% is already enough to get these fancy hits like Haymaker, Piercing Strike and stuff?
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They just force everyone take high IN...
This is just too much :/ 225%.. damn it takes all SPs only, if you got 5-7IN
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who cares about BROF, You want to know how to shot faster? Rise Your IN coz knowledge is they way.
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who cares about BROF, You want to know how to shot faster? Rise Your IN coz knowledge is they way.
I don't know who cares about BROF.. not me :/ I don't even dare touch guns anymore..
What I do care is HtH attacks. And you suggest to take fast shot? But then you cannot hit other parts than torso and criticals will fail. Criticals+DMG is everything ingame.
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sure try to punch someone in ca/++dodger/man of steel/jinxed
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Of course I wasn't in CBT, so probably to hit chance formula could be changed, but if not, then:
Speaking of requirements:Who in Cthulu's name would ever put 225% in these skills, when ~175% is already enough to get these fancy hits like Haymaker, Piercing Strike and stuff?
You created an unarmed troll who's supposed to run in bluesuit and kill innocents with haymaker. So you come to some unguarded town, and there, you see some random bluesuiter shoveling brahmin shit, you think: oh, now I'll teach him how to shovel shit in unguarded town. You're running to him, standing in front of him, aiming his eyes and miss, then again and again, then he laughs at your worthless attempts, you're trying to hit his torso at least, but again miss and miss.
10 AG, livewire, x2 dodgers and hth evade will give him 140 AC. So if you want to kill him with your fists in the eyes with 175% unarmed, you'll have -140-95-30+175 = -90% to hit in the eyes and -90%+30%= -60% to hit in the torso.
Damn 5% to hit in the torso! He's invulnerable to your trolling! He still can shovel shit even when you're trying to kill him, because he made even better troll build than you and now trolling you by not-dying.
You need to increase your unarmed skill on 90+95=185% to have 95% to hit in the eyes, it means you need to have 175+185=360% unarmed, damn but you can't get unarmed higher than 300! So max possible chance to hit is 95%-60%= 35% in the eyes and 65% in the torso, if you'll have 300% unarmed. So make 10 INT character, get all SP into unarmed, may be you'll kill someone.
So 225% unarmed requirement seems good.
The same with BRoF 225% requirements, I don't know how much AC will decrease armor, but if jacket will decrease it even a bit, then best armor will be bluesuit (in OBT bluesuit is good because of 0 weight/no drop/look like poor troll making your victim rage/immun to bypasses, after wipe it'll also make you invulnerable to fail builds with < ~250% combat skill!), 120 AC (or 140 AC if you can spend few SPs on unarmed for HtH evade perk (you need only 75% unarmed, it's not much) and then move your scoped hunting rifle (most accurate weapon in the game against other dodgers like you) from inventory to main hand slot when need to shoot), if range formula isn't changed (-4% per hex), if limbs/eyes to hit isn't changed (-60% for eyes for example), if ammo won't decrease AC on very very much, then:
A sniper with sniper rifle need to kill you on ~30th hex for example (I won't talk about 50 hexes, because it's obviously miss miss miss)
ideal sniper for best tohit% (10PE+sharp+10IN+10AG) will need to have:
140+30x4+95=355% penalty for AC and range and 95% to hit chance in the torso at least
9*16=144% bonus for sniper rifle and 10pe+sharp
355-144=211% SG skill to have 95% to hit in the torso at 30 hexes range, 271% SG for the eyes.
Also ammo -AC mod, but I don't know what it'll be after wipe.
Well it's still possible to kill dodger at ~30 hexes range with sniper rifle, argh.
Now for BGers (with 10PE+sharp lol)
Same penalty: 355%
9*8=72% bonus.
355-72=283% BG skill if not take into account -AC ammo mod to hit troll dodger in bluesuit with 95% chance on 30th hex in the torso. With BG 225% (min requirement for BRoF), you'll have 95% to hit in the torso only at 283%-225%=58 /4 = 14 hexes. So after 14th hex, you'll have on 4% less and less chance to hit with each hex. So sniper, with all AC perks including hth evade, who's always running with bare hands keeping his scoped hunting rifle in inventory and wear bluesuit will survive better than BA snipers at long range, if not, then if only ammo will have really high -AC mod, so high that dodger perks will be useless.
Edit:
Well, AC is kinda useless against unarmed, cause if you are hit in HtH, you are probably not running.
Ah damn, I didn't take this into account, trash this post then ;p
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Well, AC is kinda useless against unarmed, cause if you are hit in HtH, you are probably not running.
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so thnx god for splash damage ;] you forget about jinxed, mele boxer would break his arms in the air ;] this would be ultra mega troll build ;]
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Bonus Hth/RoF could do with coming down a bit.
I can't remember what the new HP equation will be, if it still means odd En is useless then it should change, rather than keep LG on evens
Higher FA is its own reward anyway, not sure if the requirements need to come down. They should be for medics, not combat builds with some FA.
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HtH Evade is needed to change that it counts only main hand, not second too.
It's mean to be for HtH fighters only (75% unarmed, second takes 150% unarmed)
And HtH guys only keep 1 weapon with them on main hand and second hand hold healing item.. well mostly.
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They should be for medics, not combat builds with some FA.
For medic, a "don't shoot on the medic!" perk who raise AC when standing still with paramedic bag in hand? :P
I can't remember what the new HP equation will be, if it still means odd En is useless then it should change, rather than keep LG on evens
Oh, well, ofc if uneven EN become useful... But atm I think it's still useless, the Hp gain is still EN/2 (only the +2 each level have been removed).
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Higher FA is its own reward anyway, not sure if the requirements need to come down. They should be for medics, not combat builds with some FA.
The wut? I can tell there's no such thing as medic unless in proxy form or as crafter alt. Fighting comes always first unless it's a sneaker. After putting enough points in main gunskill remaining points are first allocated in doc and then in FA. If superstims are plenty, fa won't even be needed.
Moving fa and carryweight related perks to support would surely increase their popularity. I can assure nobody in his right mind will choose fa perks over lifegiver or action boy.
EDIT: actually it would be cool to have a medic class the same way there's merc leader and slaver classes that are used occasionally. The thing is this class should be a damn health powerhouse but with the current perks he just won't be any better than a guy who has 50 superstims and just keeps pumping them in everybody who's hurt.
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Of course, by medic I mean someone who invests properly into the skill to be able to go all the way up the perk tree for it. (Instead of being a dodger etc)
Not some limp wristed char who only has FA.
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Field medic? It is usless. Well if some one is knocked down he will be dead is 5s. There allready increased hp to 290hp and dead man walking special perk, so it is additional +60hp before you die. And surf please leave lsw and mini/av alone. Make m60 stationary defend weapon but leave rest. Boost assault rifle lvl3 - it is v expensive weapon but totally usles, it could be like laser rifle 42-45range and with some perk, or req str 4- because it is composite weapon so it is lighter
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Well I was not part of the beta test but I have noticed a nice surprise on the FCP.
I think better toughness should require toughness to take the next level. That makes no sense to me.
My overall opinion is BG tanks are going to be RIDICULOUS with all these +ac perks and +10% damage resistance perks.
I mean the balance with sniper is that it can shoot 50 hexes but is generally weak(lower hp) and requires a lot of skill point, so now we have all these +AC perks, anti-cirt, and bonehead trait which is going to make it impossible to shoot somebody at range and do decent damage or cause a knockout.
And now bonus range damage and toughness requires no luck? So this is going to be all 1 luck big gunners while other things like SG and EW are gimped. I hate big gunners, I don't like playing big gunners, and this is what pvp is going to be nothing but max HP 1 luck big gunners. So now big gunners are going to be impossible to hit with +AC perks, or going to be ridiculous to try and shoot and knockout with a targeted shot build. That is the balance in PvP that targeted shot builds can do knockouts because they generally require less HP to make them.
I just don't see this next session being very balanced, its going to be all big gunners. EW and SG snipers aren't going to do much. That is what I think about these new perks and changes, I haven't played Beta but this is what I think so far just looking at the FCP.
And why can't we get bonus rate of fire with energy weapons?
I don't know I haven't played the beta and haven't played next wipe maybe it wont be so bad, but I just see big gunners as being over powered, and energy weapons as gimped and nerfed badly. I just don't see the devs thinking with weapon handling and bonus rate of fire can't be taken with energy weapons. So all the builds can do 2 shots but energy weapons have to take jet and get -DR from jet, and they are going to get owned super quick because they can't hit tanks at max range, or they can't at least knock them out because of perks like stonewall and traits like bonehead.
In current session its already pretty bad that stonewall blocks knockouts and knockdowns, but now we have bonehead, stonewall and that one perk that does -10% crit chance? This is kind of ridiculous if you ask me. Targeted shot builds aren't going to be fun at all.
I mean at least in the current session snipers and ew stand a chance against tanks because they can bypass and do knock outs. And can at least hit 75% in eyes max range to a tank with damage resistance.
Although I think this is a good improvement for melee characters I think we well see more of them in PvP a melee character seems like it would be fun with +AC and HtH evade etc.
Correct me if I am wrong but does anybody see it the way I do that energy weapons and snipers are going to be useless against tanks? And PvP is going to be all big gunners?
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I think it might be a little better to wait and actually try playing with the perks before the complaining begins.
I have no doubt things will need changing, the interaction of all the perks, new weapon stats, etc is very complex and I've essentially guessed with these things. So of course it will need fine tuning.
Do need to make sure EW and throwing are added in to some requirements though.
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add brfo to ew, and grim stop crying. no one will take now stonewall because it is from 9 or 12lvl so pvp builds have to take others perks like lg/brd/toughnes/brof...
surf please make gatling pvp weapon ;] something equal to av but for range 30-35. gatling is most expensive gun to use and buy...make it pvp weapon, add perk spray and prey or armor piercing like magneto laser pistol.
grip no one like g a y ew in metal armors. laser rifles are toys
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I think it might be a little better to wait and actually try playing with the perks before the complaining begins.
I bet people would love to do some hinkleying with superstims and drugs to see how the builds work. It would take about a week to roughly see which perks and builds stand out from the rest.
Drugs and superstims are must because by the end of the day everyone who's played a while will have a build that uses at least buffout, nuka and cigs.
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drugs on hinkley? it is little imposible. everyone would just go there use drugs and go on wm full drhat would dugged for next 30min. that would kill med crafters market. but idea of giving only nuca and smokes on hinkley is quite good. only basic drugs and stims in arena arent good idea either. arena is for quick fight kill or die, adding stims would increase time of every match so people which are waiting for next match would get bored of waiting. hinkley has another map...arena of barrles ;] only for brusters ;]
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I meant in cbt.
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you can get drugs from shops. caps from npcs and basic drugs cola and smokes and stims and random gear. hmmm i didnt see gatling on hinkley. and also m60 wasnt quite good as lsw
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I think it might be a little better to wait and actually try playing with the perks before the complaining begins.
I have no doubt things will need changing, the interaction of all the perks, new weapon stats, etc is very complex and I've essentially guessed with these things. So of course it will need fine tuning.
Do need to make sure EW and throwing are added in to some requirements though.
Well I am stating my opinion what I think based off of reading what these perks do. But I was very shocked that the character planner stated something like -16% chance to hit in eyes with laser rifle max range to a target with max AC perks and more toughness + psycho and brotherhood armor. 300 skill points, 10 perception -16% chance to hit eyes? To a build that has 120ac + better toughness + psycho using brotherhood armor?
And I just found it weird the only way to make a efficient energy build you need 200% small guns or big guns which does not work out well when you need 300% skill points to do anything. That is my biggest complaint, everything else looks fine and I like the new ideas, and should make for some interesting builds and pvp.
But I am glad you took into consideration of adding an energy and throwing requirement for these perks.
And for of those who say I am crying you should be happy that I discuss these things and discover this kind of stuff, because I know a build that would make it -16% chance to hit eyes at max range with sniper and energy builds. Even with 300% skill points and 10 perception. That would not be fair to snipers and ew now would it? And the way to get this build is not having requirements to get perks like even more toughness, dodger+ without taking dodger, or toughness. Or maybe the character planner is glitched or bugged I do not know, I hope its bugged but if it is accurate there needs to be changes.
I just do not want to see the game being all one type of power build, and my favorite builds to play are energy builds and snipers. And this is based off of assumption, but I have been playing fallout1/2 for many years and understand the math of criticals DR/DT luck rolls etc.
I would love to wait to see these perks in action then I can truly say if its over powered or not. I am hoping that the character planner isn't accurate and hopefully its nothing to worry about.
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Well I am stating my opinion what I think based off of reading what these perks do. But I was very shocked that the character planner stated something like -16% chance to hit in eyes with laser rifle max range to a target with max AC perks and more toughness + psycho and brotherhood armor. 300 skill points, 10 perception -16% chance to hit eyes? To a build that has 120ac + better toughness + psycho using brotherhood armor?
but you know to make such a build you will have to make ultra troll build. you woulnd make any damage to oponents so it will be only troll char. maby good for sneaker ;] and now to take brof you must have 225% skill of sg/bg/...
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I think that's the point of AC. But I have no idea how is this ever going to be balanced with 70% (and higher) reduction on armors.
Then again I've heard it has some buff to it's damage, so you can cut bluesuits like a boss.
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Its better to wait until you can test it than have me explain everything that's wrong in those assumptions :P
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If explanation's gonna be as good as that about slow/fast world map squares, i deeply believe, that waiting is option who every living creature gonna choose.
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Only one level of Strong back? Give me back my carry weight! :'(
With both Strong back and Pack rat i will carry like 20 cw less than my build from this era (it's a crafter build - i love the possibility of carrying a mountain and now they gonna cleave of that mountains peak?)
Give another strong back pretty please (it won't unbalance anything now would it?)
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You should be able to carry "182.5" with 10ST and those 2 perks, enjoy maths )
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You should be able to carry "182.5" with 10ST and those 2 perks, enjoy maths )
I'd rather like my current 215 to stay! Thank you for that kind of inferior math...
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Its better to wait until you can test it than have me explain everything that's wrong in those assumptions :P
Because the way it seems is that a big gunner with psycho dodger+ and more toughness perks and brotherhood armor are going to run up 1hex everybody and it can't be stopped because its -16% chance to hit in eye with ranged builds? While having max hp. I could see this being fine for melee builds but it makes BG builds over powered if they can't be hit. But I hoping that its a character planner bug, and I am worried about nothing.
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10ag/doger/+doger and another perk. This inst v good build because you didnt make any damage.
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You can still shoot those high ac builds in arms and legs.
What's troubbling me are 90ac jinxed trollbuilds that can just spam themselves in maps and hope enemy gets weapon destroyed. Perhaps remove the weapon destroyed entirely from jinxed? Gun drop, -ap crit miss etc. are bad enough, big harm caused by bluesuit who risks nothing.
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I wonder if leg cripples will finally be worth while.
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I wonder if leg cripples will finally be worth while.
Well leg cripple always worth it when you manage to do it. In a sense, that's even worst than arm cripple, as one prevent you to shoot while the other prevent you to run away, rush, follow your mates... It was never really used because of low crit rate+low cripple rate.
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Its not particularly low chance as far as I remember. Certainly would be very high if you can be certain of the crit (using the right perk)
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;) ;) would help if the crit tables were made public.
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;) ;) would help if the crit tables were made public.
Oh yeah , i don't understand why that kind of information is always unknown to mortals aka regular players.
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Oh btw there is guy who send PM about CBT and how to play it (Includes download links+changelog)
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10078 (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10078)
This guy.
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So this "guy" just created an account today to send you CBT informations... it makes sense to me !
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So this "guy" just created an account today to send you CBT informations... it makes sense to me !
That's why I called him on IRC with name "Mysterious stranger" ;)