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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Lordus on December 11, 2011, 05:37:41 am

Title: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Lordus on December 11, 2011, 05:37:41 am
 Hello wastelanders, devs.
 
 Is it possible to integrate permanent inflation into game economy system? If i remember correctly, there exists mathematic formula based on barter skill, specific price level for each npc trader,.. . My idea: prices of every stuff traded by npc traders would slowly raise over the time (another multiplier into price formula). This effect would slowly lower the real value of every player and gang caps savings and it would, if not clear, at least reduce the gap among longer and shorter playing players.

 So after one ingame year, same rifle should cost 2000 instead of 1000 caps (only example).

 I understand, that caps generating (spawning) ratio by NPC traders (simply, caps in their inventories) needs to be somehow related to inflation ratio.

  a) if the ratio would be same (inflation multiplier = npc caps generating multiplier), it would have only effects on gang and players caps savings. Your saved money would lower their value, you would be able to buy less stuff. So this would eliminate the gameplay problem, that after few weeks or months, players have enough caps to buy everything and their effort is undermined.

 I know that you can argue, that players could very early craft or buy huge amount of stuff, so they can later change it for actual amount of caps, but this argument will be obsolete next era. There will be need to maintain your weapons and armors using the very same stuff you want to maintain => no more zilions pieces of unused stuff on ground => no "stuff deposites for later time". Theoreticaly! I agree, that there would be some stuff, you dont need to use in PvP, PvE, crafting, maintaining whatever, and players would be able to early obtain that stuff for preserve value purpose only.

 => But this situation could be nothing less that good gameplay part of Fonline! Players who likes to trade would have another attribute in their gameplay (so second benefit of this idea).

 b) Now imagine situation, that caps spawning ratio by NPC traders would be quite lower than inflation ratio. At the early beginning of era, there would not be a problem to get  caps by selling stuff. (example: 1 armor = 25O caps, npc trader spawns 500 caps (per hour,..) => you can sell 2 armors per hour (for caps)). After some time, caps price of stuff would raise (by inflation), but the amount of caps generated by NPC traders would not (or only slower than inflation).  (1 armor = 500 caps, npc trader spawns 500 caps per hour => you can sell only 1 armor per hour. ).

 This would result into situation, that caps are loosing their value (everything is more expensive) AND (cumulative) caps are getting rare (de facto raising its value)  :o :o :o => Even you have "stuff deposites for later time" (or by crafting), you would not be able to obtain EASILY caps from npc traders (they will slowly lack of caps, because players will get more caps in exchange of constant amount of stuff). Also even you have huge amount of caps, you will loose its value, because of inflation (more caps needed to buy same stuff).
 
 What are the effects of this idea:

- Players would be forced to travel to distant locations to get caps. After beggining of the era because of numerous players on the server (like every post wipe period). Weeks or months after wipe (when many players will left, as usual (no whine, just fact)) because of inflation and shortage of caps amount in NPCs inventories.

- Players would be forced to more trade among them. Imagine situation: VSB gang has 100 000 caps. We collected that amount of caps, when 1 armor costed 10 000 caps (npc trader) => 100 k caps = 10 armors. But now, one armor costs 20 000 caps (npc traders). So we can afford only 5 armors. There is a new player (Wichura :) ), who needs to buy base, but he cannot collect enough caps (traders dont have caps). We contact him and offer him a trade: 50 000 caps for 5 armors (10 000 caps per armor, same amount like before destructive force of inflation). He is accepts the offer, because he knows, that he would need much longer time to obtain caps from npc traders. Clear?

- Players would be forced to barter (stuff for stuff, not for caps) not only with npc traders, but among players.

- The merchant gameplay of fonline would evolve.

Q: So if everything would be more expensive, i would need to spend f....g more time to obtain PvP stuff?
A: No, inflation will not have any direct impact on crafting, mining, scavenging. It will only force players to improvize, if they want to get stuff by other ways. And if you are clever, you can spend even less time to obtain PvP stuff!

Q: Will be there enough caps to obtain neccesary things in future?
A: Yes, you can do quests, TC, sell stuff to player or npc traders, hire your services to players and other, but it will not be as easy, as  it was.

Q: I think it will not work, i can bring zillions of hunting rifles looted in "Vs. encounters" and barter it for Combat Armor MK2 from NPC trader.
A: Of course you can barter stuff for stuff. Their caps price will raise simultaneously (because of inflation). But things that could be bought only in exchange for caps (bases, cars, train tickets  ;D, mercs, ....) will become difficult to obtain (slowly). But there will still exists ways. Also no more trade behaviour with npcs: "I have zilion of caps and i take all your stuff".

Q: Would this be hard to implement?
A: I dont know. But it is not new map, new quest, new script. It is only rework of existing mechanism. If it does not work properly, it can be changed during era. (By changing inflation ratio, changing caps spawning ratio, reimplementing bank interrests...).

Q: Inflation will crash server, because you will get zilions of caps per brahmin hides.
A: No, because there will not be zilions of caps :)



Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Stration on December 11, 2011, 11:46:46 am
What you propose would be:

1. completely pointless unless stealing caps from NPC's in random encounters is no longer possible,
2. easy to abuse,
3. extremely annoying to new players, especially those joining mid-session,
4. moderately annoying to freelancers.

But you already know that, right?

Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Lordus on December 11, 2011, 01:44:09 pm
What you propose would be:

1. completely pointless unless stealing caps from NPC's in random encounters is no longer possible,
2. easy to abuse,
3. extremely annoying to new players, especially those joining mid-session,
4. moderately annoying to freelancers.

But you already know that, right?



1) stealing caps from NPCs was never the main source of caps. Main source of caps was TC, then caps from NPC traders
2) Do you know Vedaras? Its his phrase.
3) Nonsense. New players, that joins in mid section (when half of post wipe players left) will have plenty of possibilities how to earn caps. And moreover, their effort would be more valued than effort of players that earn their huge value in the start of session, because of inflation.  8)
4) Nonsense. Instead of. "I have quadrilion of useless stuff, give me your gold, you stupd NPC trader!", they would need to use diiferent ways how to trade, even with players. In MMORPG. (Damn, i did not know that some player hates to play with players in multiplayer game).
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Johnnybravo on December 11, 2011, 02:42:03 pm
I think Solar posted something like that is going to happen.

Personally I think this game is just gonna be even more annoying and unfriendly after wipe. (with inflation not playing for several weeks - which is absolutely normal for me - is going to translate into serious cash loss, on top of that annoying repair system or changes to leveling).

Just like bank interest was a failure this is going to be one as well.
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Stration on December 11, 2011, 03:01:46 pm
1) stealing caps from NPCs was never the main source of caps. Main source of caps was TC, then caps from NPC traders
It's not relevant to what I wrote in my post. My intention was merely to bring up that one source of infinite easy caps that you conveniently omitted to mention in your simulation of what would happen should 'permanent inflation' be introduced.
2) Do you know Vedaras? Its his phrase.
And that invalidates my statement how? Or is it maybe an invitation for me to present some of the endless possibilities that your idea's implementation would enable players to abuse?
3) Nonsense. New players, that joins in mid section (when half of post wipe players left) will have plenty of possibilities how to earn caps. And moreover, their effort would be more valued than effort of players that earn their huge value in the start of session, because of inflation.
Dream on.
4) Nonsense. Instead of. "I have quadrilion of useless stuff, give me your gold, you stupd NPC trader!", they would need to use diiferent ways how to trade, even with players. In MMORPG. (Damn, i did not know that some player hates to play with players in multiplayer game).
I've done hundreds of trades; my items/caps come chiefly from interacting with other players (be it bartering, looting, whatever). I don't see how implementing 'permanent inflation' (whatever that means) could ever affect this in any positive way. What you propose is that we gradually lower the amount of new currency in circulation at the same time making the prices go higher. Since in player-to-player trades, the price of any given item is as a rule HIGHER than the base price of that item, it would effectively render players less able to afford to buy items from another player, therefore hindering player-to-player trading rather than facilitating it.
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: T-888 on December 11, 2011, 03:30:40 pm
My idea: prices of every stuff traded by npc traders would slowly raise over the time (another multiplier into price formula).

 I understand, that caps generating (spawning) ratio by NPC traders (simply, caps in their inventories) needs to be somehow related to inflation ratio.

Why like this ? It doesn't make sense it's inflation out of thin air.

Player X trades random item at npc Y , random item gets more expensive because ...... ?

What makes sense each item of it's type gets more expensive or cheaper to buy/sell due to it's present amount. X item is 20 it costs less , Y item is 2 it cost is multiplied due to it's low stock + the cap ratio spawning would depend on the amount of total items. So you can't suck caps out of traders for ever , make items in his inventory decrease the price the longer they haven't been bought , one feature balances out the other.

I've read all your suggestion , good idea in general but i think wrong approach.
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Fizzle on December 11, 2011, 03:34:25 pm
um... this is a wasteland, If you have the supplies you can charge what ever you want for it!
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Lordus on December 11, 2011, 04:02:48 pm
It's not relevant to what I wrote in my post. My intention was merely to bring about that one source of infinite easy caps that you conveniently omitted to mention in your simulation of what would happen should 'permanent inflation' be introduced.

 Yes, there are a lot of ways how to get infinite caps. But sources of caps (stealing from npcs, looting Vs. encounters,..) would not counter inflation (in oposite to npc traders).

Dream on.

 Faction in mid session with that collected huge amount of caps would have two choices: spend their caps for lower amount of stuff (because of inflation), or trade with other players, who cannot easily obtain caps.

 
I've done hundreds of trades; my items/caps come chiefly from interacting with other players (be it bartering, looting, whatever). I don't see how implementing 'permanent inflation' (whatever that means) could ever affect this in any positive way.

 Most players gets mosts trades from interacting with NPC traders, not players. (If i omit "trades" among members of same faction). So your example dont represent the majority.

 There exist inflation in the game economy. But is not permanent. Many players wants car, car price rises, less players wants car, car price is decrease. Permanent inflation would raise the price level continually, without any decrease.

 
What you propose is that we gradually lower the amount of new currency in circulation at the same time making the prices go higher.

 Yes, the amount of new currency will gradually lower, but total amount of currency will still raises (there would still be new caps in traders, TC, quests,..).

 
 
Since in player-to-player trades, the price of any given item is as a rule HIGHER than the base price of that item, it would effectively render players less able to afford to buy items from another player, therefore hindering player-to-player trades rather than facilitating them.

 You forget one thing, my friend. 2238 is not growing economy. A lot of player disapears after start of session, the number of players in mid session decrease, but the amount of caps still raises. There is not any economical reason, why players (gangs) with bases, cars, PvP or PvE stuff and milions of caps needs to trade with each other. Only newbies wants to trade with players, but it is more begging than trading (because longer playing players realy dont need anything from newbies).

 If value of gangs caps savings will decrease, but on opposite, if it would be more harder for other players to get caps, they will be economicaly forced to cooperate (trade).


 
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Stration on December 11, 2011, 05:18:14 pm
Yes, there are a lot of ways how to get infinite caps. But sources of caps (stealing from npcs, looting Vs. encounters,..) would not counter inflation (in oposite to npc traders).
I never said they would. If anything, more and more caps = greater and greater inflation rate, but I don't see how that relates to what I wrote before.
Faction in mid session with that collected huge amount of caps would have two choices: spend their caps for lower amount of stuff (because of inflation), or trade with other players, who cannot easily obtain caps.
So you're suggesting that a guy who knows how to obtain items that a major faction might be willing to buy from him at the same time has no idea how to get caps? Really?
Most players gets mosts trades from interacting with NPC traders, not players. (If i omit "trades" among members of same faction). So your example dont represent the majority.
Just because you don't trade with players from outside your faction doesn't mean nobody else does.
There exist inflation in the game economy. But is not permanent. Many players wants car, car price rises, less players wants car, car price is decrease. Permanent inflation would raise the price level continually, without any decrease.
And that would be good?
Yes, the amount of new currency will gradually lower, but total amount of currency will still raises (there would still be new caps in traders, TC, quests,..).
I'm sorry to say this, but you have no clue how money works. Also, TC money is to be gone after the next wipe, and these meager few caps that quests give you are not even worth mentioning.
You forget one thing, my friend. 2238 is not growing economy. A lot of player disapears after start of session, the number of players in mid session decrease, but the amount of caps still raises. There is not any economical reason, why players (gangs) with bases, cars, PvP or PvE stuff and milions of caps needs to trade with each other. Only newbies wants to trade with players, but it is more begging than trading (because longer playing players realy dont need anything from newbies). If value of gangs caps savings will decrease, but on opposite, if it would be more harder for other players to get caps, they will be economicaly forced to cooperate (trade).
In short: "adjust the game economy so that my faction can profit." The answer is no, but nice try.
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Lordus on December 11, 2011, 05:58:48 pm
I never said they would. If anything, more and more caps = greater and greater inflation rate, but I don't see how that relates to what I wrote before.
The total amount of caps in game does not affect the price of stuff of NPC traders in 2238. This is how it works. => You cannot buy best stuff, because it is always sold out. My suggestion goes counter this fact, but inflation will be created generaly.

 
So you're suggesting that a guy who knows how to obtain items that a major faction might be willing to buy from him at the same time has no idea how to get caps? Really?
Players know how to get caps. Players will know, how to get caps from players, because of lack of caps of NPC traders in midsession and later. Just go to NCR and trade with caps holders. Or spend a lot of time to checking all npc traders, risk death because of PKs.. Best players find best way. Like before.
 
 
Just because you don't trade with players from outside your faction doesn't mean nobody else does.
Dont be agressive. Tell me, what is the ratio between player vs. NPC trade and player vs. player trade? 100:1? 1000:1?

 
And that would be good? (Inflation)

 I posted reasons why it would be good in my first topic. In general => more activities of players to preserve value => more players interaction => more populated locations!

I'm sorry to say this, but you have no clue how money works.
I am sorry, but you forget that we are talking about online game currency mechanics, not about free market environment. This currently artifical created economy environment of 2238 is more similar to central planned economy with fixed prices than to outside world.
 
 
Also, TC money is to be gone after the next wipe, and these meager few caps that quests give you are not even worth mentioning.
So you can still get zilion of caps by trading a huge amount of useless crap.
 
 
In short: "adjust the game economy so that my faction can profit." The answer is no, but nice try.

 Every faction has everything after few weeks or months. This would not change (because of slow rate of inflation). But after that time, there is no need for rich players to trade with others. And basic players are useless for them, only meat for guns. My idea could change this.

 
Why like this ? It doesn't make sense it's inflation out of thin air. Player X trades random item at npc Y , random item gets more expensive because ...... ?

 Inflation made by infinite source of every stuff.

What makes sense each item of it's type gets more expensive or cheaper to buy/sell due to it's present amount. X item is 20 it costs less , Y item is 2 it cost is multiplied due to it's low stock + the cap ratio spawning would depend on the amount of total items. So you can't suck caps out of traders for ever , make items in his inventory decrease the price the longer they haven't been bought , one feature balances out the other.

 I think that your idea is classic free market idea. But problem is, that 2238 has infinite sources of stuff that could totaly ruin (lower) the prices of some stuff. Also barter skill affects the final prices of stuff, so it has a very big potential to be abusable, so it would need much time and sources to test it.

 Also my idea aims to some purpuses and it could be generaly relatively easily regulated (by changing inflation ratio, reimplementing bank interrests, changing money spawning ratio,...), your idea could work in 2/3 of Npc traders, but rest could be "caps generators".
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Stration on December 11, 2011, 06:18:04 pm
And that would be good? (Inflation)

You misquoted me by adding "(Inflation)" to what I wrote, changing the meaning of my question which clearly didn't pertain to inflation in general, but rather to the notion of infinitely increasing car prices.

As for all the points you've made, they pretty much bear out my initial claim, i.e. that introducing 'permanent inflation' would be quite pointless.

Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Lordus on December 11, 2011, 06:34:27 pm

As for all the points you've made, they pretty much bear out my initial claim, i.e. that introducing 'permanent inflation' would be quite pointless.

 If you are satisfied with how current economy ruins gameplay, then yes, it would be quite pointless.
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Stration on December 11, 2011, 06:44:01 pm
If you are satisfied with how current economy ruins gameplay, then yes, it would be quite pointless.
How does it ruin gameplay? By allowing all players easy access to whatever they need? You're being ridiculous.
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Lordus on December 11, 2011, 06:59:31 pm
On every discussion there exist same kind of people. Instead of argumentation and at least little effort to understand the facts about what are people writing, this kind of people chooses offensive aproach in disscusion and lacks good manners. Any argumentation with this kind of players has no sense. Sad is, that often you can not recognize this type of people, until you are in discussion.

 But i will give you last chance and last answer. Good gameplay is not about easy acces to whatever they need. Good gameplay is about entertaining overcome of obstacles. MMORPG offers player interaction as entertaining element. My idea offers motivation for players who dont need to interact, because they have easy acces to whatever they need.  :-*
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Stration on December 11, 2011, 08:01:57 pm
On every discussion there exist same kind of people. Instead of argumentation and at least little effort to understand the facts about what are people writing, this kind of people chooses offensive aproach in disscusion and lacks good manners. Any argumentation with this kind of players has no sense. Sad is, that often you can not recognize this type of people, until you are in discussion.

 But i will give you last chance and last answer. Good gameplay is not about easy acces to whatever they need. Good gameplay is about entertaining overcome of obstacles. MMORPG offers player interaction as entertaining element. My idea offers motivation for players who dont need to interact, because they have easy acces to whatever they need.

In short: "whoever disagrees with me is an ill-mannered moron."

Sorry to disappoint, but you're not in kindergarden anymore. This, dear sir, is the Internet. When you're in the wrong, people will call you out on it. And if, having been proven wrong, you decide to persist in pushing your point of view, it's only logical that your opposition should at that point cease to substantiate their claims which are, by then, self-evident.

Protip: next time you make a suggestion, think it over a tad more carefully. Don't just think about your own short-term benefits, but rather than that consider the big picture, preferably in long term.
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Wichura on December 11, 2011, 09:14:21 pm
This thread looks like
(http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/political-pictures-titanic-uss-economy.jpg)

tl;dr of course.
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Astenu on December 11, 2011, 11:52:24 pm
Most of us is in Fonline to spread death all around, not economy. Some people are more interested in crafting and some other things not exactly connected with mayhem. I remember how disappointed i was when i find out caravans useless and not to many crafting professions and many other small things, jokes like 10k of bbs in every shop. Once i told my friend about fonline and he asked if the crafting system was advanced, i said game is more fight orientated, so he passed. people like him could have their fun and be very usefull for any faction. I think that could be a kick for economy in some way.
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: OskaRus on December 12, 2011, 04:56:08 pm
Well lordus this idea indicates some fundamental misunderstanding about economy. (nothing personal.) Inflation is effect caused by adding more money to economy tahts true. But important variable in the equation is also supply and demand (both caused by players). Any attempt to implement in game NPC inflation would be like curing flu by baning sneezing and coughing.

In singleplayer game where exist no economy but NPC trader it might have some sense. But do we want to have Hello kitty economy where NPC traders buy all the shit and are no money around when you need them? Or do we want real economy where players can trade freely and set their own prices based on supply and demand and have only alts they like and trade the rest of stuff?
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Lordus on December 12, 2011, 11:24:31 pm
 OskaRus, i know how inflation in real world works.
But you should know Oskarus, that inflation could be effect caused by another thing, than supply and demand. Look at our (Czechoslovakia history), at times when we had planned economy. Most prices of goods and services were determined by decision of leaders of communist party. From time to time, price of goods and services were changed, from various reasons.

 And 2238 is also more like planned economy. Most goods (weapons, armors, bases,...) and services (proffesions, quests,..) have artificaly set prices. And like in real existing planned economy, where exists black market based on supply demand principles, in 2238 is NCR bazaar, where you can trade with players on supply demand principle.

 Back to my idea. 2238 artificaly set prices and supply of caps IMO negatively affect player vs. player trades, in quantitative level (majority of trades are player vs. NPC) and qualitative (i think that core PvP stuff is not traded among players (looting after PvP does not count :) ). So i think, that change of current artifical set of economical attributes, could result into more interaction between players => more fun.

 

 
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Kanly on December 13, 2011, 12:23:39 am
Why I think this is a bad idea ?

After some time with inflation a combat armor will cost 21000 caps,  we will trade with other player? NOOO
We will sell to the traders some lazor rifle find figthing unity ( and we will sell it to the trader to the double of normal price)
or we will give to the trader bb ammo ( with inflation bb ammo = 8 caps huzzah)

So we will change something? Yes people will keep more stuff at the tent, more lag that is the thing we need MOAR
Huzzah !!!


If you want realistic market and more useful inflation then you must do some real script
when a trader resupply then he should compare the stuff that he have now with the stuff he haved
and lower the price of stuff unselled (bb ammo would become soon without value) and items that have selled
and are now out of supply should have now a higher price ( soon buffout will reach 5000 caps each).

My humble opinion   ;D


Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: OskaRus on December 13, 2011, 12:35:57 am
And 2238 is also more like planned economy.


Highest time to march from modoc to ring our keys in the NCR square and demand free market. Not introduce more artificial market regulation. ;-)

Back to my idea. 2238 artificaly set prices and supply of caps IMO negatively affect player vs. player trades


Thats just small part of the problem. Prices are set only for low tier stuff or materials (unupgraded weapons). Finding anything usefull (sniper rifle, combat armor) is more of a quest itself consuming much more time than caps by the final trade. Like the queues for bananas i Czechoslovakia. xD NPC traders as i understand them are more like hostile boses or dungeon treasures which sometimes after long and tedious battle drop something of value.

Player interaction in economy is nonexistant in fonline because trading is
a) insecure: youll get robed or (sucuide) killed on meeting point with your customer
b) time consuming: you have to actualy ask on forum or in bublic place (outcome a) and wait for replies
c) requires exact timing: you just have to be loged the same time as your customer.

due to a) any profit of trading is highly disputable and more of a luck than hard work. Due to b) it is much faster to make your own crafter than to ask for goods. due to c) trading between different timezone players or players with different work shifts is practicaly impossible.

I believe some pepople would like to see marketplace flourishing of player life and people huddling about prices but thats just not how trading in MMOs works. Many successfull projects (Eve online, WoW for instance) have shown that single safe (more or less, but suicuide ganks here are much more costly and harder to pull out) unregulated place of trade is required and sufficient for any PvP trading and economy.

With any such marketplace or auctionhous i believe PvP trading would swiftly take over NPC traders in volume and popularity. NPC set prices might be still twisting a prices but there would be at least any prices and trade they migh twist.
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Lordus on December 13, 2011, 01:53:17 am
After some time with inflation a combat armor will cost 21000 caps,  we will trade with other player? NOOO
We will sell to the traders some lazor rifle find figthing unity ( and we will sell it to the trader to the double of normal price)
or we will give to the trader bb ammo ( with inflation bb ammo = 8 caps huzzah)

 1) after wipe, you will need to "consume" another same item or more to repair it, so you will not have same large amount of items storaged on bases ground. You want weapons to PvP, you need to repair it. You want sell weapons to NPC merchants, you need to repair it. So not dozens laser rifle from one player...
 
 2) At moment, when new CA would cost 21000 caps, you will be able to sell it to NPC trader at same price (21 000 caps, minus some caps because of sell price is always lower). But at this moment, NPC trader would have still only 5 000 caps spawn per hour in his inventory (those numbers are only examples of course). So almost everyone, who wants to sell something, will drain caps from NPC traders. Temporarily, until next caps respawn. So as a player who need caps, you will have two choices: travel across wasteland and seek for respawned caps (=> population of empty cities, this is good effect), but it will take a time or you can trade with players (sell your crafted items), who have caps. Because at moment, when CA would cost 21 000 caps (after several real life weeks or months), there will exists (like every session) many wealthy gangs with bank accounts or caves filled with dozens, hundret thousands or milions of caps (=fact). And those gangs, or rich players who will need many items (armor, weapons = because of repair ) will have 2 choices = go and sell more of their caps for less items from NPC traders (inflation), or talk and trade less of their caps for items from players (who would rather craft usable items for players, instead of crafting huge amount of bb gun ammo with risk that they will still need more time to sell it).

If you want realistic market ..

 I dont think that we want realistic market, we want market, that fulfills its purpose. And purpose of MMORPG is player interaction. Trades with NPC is not player interaction.


Highest time to march from modoc to ring our keys in the NCR square and demand free market. Not introduce more artificial market regulation. ;-)

 :) This will mean that you will have to remove NPC traders from game, because every NPC trader will deform free player market.
 
Thats just small part of the problem. Prices are set only for low tier stuff or materials (unupgraded weapons). Finding anything usefull (sniper rifle, combat armor) is more of a quest itself consuming much more time than caps by the final trade. Like the queues for bananas i Czechoslovakia. xD NPC traders as i understand them are more like hostile boses or dungeon treasures which sometimes after long and tedious battle drop something of value.

 But this supports idea of my suggestion. Players with caps needs much more time to find stuff they need (NPC traders seeking). So they craft. But my idea adds another "disadvantage" => inflation. And solution => trade with players.

Player interaction in economy is nonexistant in fonline because trading is
a) insecure: youll get robed or (sucuide) killed on meeting point with your customer
b) time consuming: you have to actualy ask on forum or in bublic place (outcome a) and wait for replies
c) requires exact timing: you just have to be loged the same time as your customer.

due to a) any profit of trading is highly disputable and more of a luck than hard work. Due to b) it is much faster to make your own crafter than to ask for goods. due to c) trading between different timezone players or players with different work shifts is practicaly impossible.
I agree that this obstacle, but not the main reason.
I believe some pepople would like to see marketplace flourishing of player life and people huddling about prices but thats just not how trading in MMOs works. Many successfull projects (Eve online, WoW for instance) have shown that single safe (more or less, but suicuide ganks here are much more costly and harder to pull out) unregulated place of trade is required and sufficient for any PvP trading and economy.
Problem is, that when you reach some level of wealth, you dont realy need to trade with other playres to get stuff, because you are self-sufficient (player or faction). So you can have free market, but no ECONOMICAL need to trade there.
With any such marketplace or auctionhous i believe PvP trading would swiftly take over NPC traders in volume and popularity. NPC set prices might be still twisting a prices but there would be at least any prices and trade they migh twist.
That could exist even if my suggestion would be implemented. But on other way, auctions, where you set up price and amount, than you leave for a while is not the exact form of player interaction, i would like to see in MMORPG, because you can practicaly do bussiness without any contact with other players.
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Infiltrator on December 13, 2011, 02:17:25 am
This is utterly useless. It'll just ruin the prices and also the way you trade. You higher the price, you lower the price of the item you sell. It's pointless.
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Shonsu on December 13, 2011, 05:40:07 am
if we want further player to player trading we need an auction house.  Bring your item in, set a starting price and a minimum price, and an end date and players can come in and bid on that item.  A guarded zone obviously.  Anyone caught with a weapon in his or her hands is instantly shot.

This solves both problems of safety and time zone issues.


p.s. how's tis maintenance thing going to work after wipe? Any specifics? 
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Lordus on December 14, 2011, 05:12:26 pm
This is utterly useless. It'll just ruin the prices and also the way you trade. You higher the price, you lower the price of the item you sell. It's pointless.

 I agree, that this would change the way you trade in this session. But because of exact purposes i described before. Useless? Well, if you think that change in price of goods and sevices does not affect human (player) behaviour...  ::)

 
if we want further player to player trading we need an auction house.  Bring your item in, set a starting price and a minimum price, and an end date and players can come in and bid on that item.  A guarded zone obviously.  Anyone caught with a weapon in his or her hands is instantly shot.

 Auction house is idea that could exists or not with my suggestion. I agree, that wasteland needs absolutely safe place for trade (no PKs, no thiefs, no suicide bombers, ...).  I can imagine, that players should pay some minor payment for this secure services. (dozens or hundreds of caps per entrace/time ..), so more unsafe places would still provide pleasure for players that parasites on other players.

 
.

 But player vs. player trades should not be without direct players interaction. It is wasteland, market place, where you need to meet players, talk with them, negotiate, trade or not, make contacts and future discounts, friends... Auction house, where your player vs. player trade will realized thru another NPC is not reason why to play MMORPG (because of absence of direct interaction with player).

 And another reason. Why do you think, that auction dome would help players? Again, rich gangs and players could totaly deform prices of items (and they did), they will buy all pvp usable stuff. Simply. And it would be buggy, very buggy. Rather simple solution.

 I remember many post wipe times, when i traded on NCR bazaar with other players. But this trades, motivated by getting first needed stuff to level and arm your chars disapeard, when players reached some level of wealth. My idea wants to improve trades after this stages, motivate players to do that.
 

 
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: OskaRus on December 14, 2011, 10:13:09 pm
But player vs. player trades should not be without direct players interaction.

Thats not just how mmo works. That would require people to spend there as much time selling shit as selling shit in their real life jobs. Noones gona do it. If you have actually seen it in any game let me know but i havent.

Again, rich gangs and players could totaly deform prices of items, they will buy all pvp usable stuff

Thats exactly the point of free market. If you have enough money you can manipulate the market. But another property of free market is also that it never runs out of goods. Prices will just go so high that only as much people are willing to buy stuff as are willing to sell it. (supply and demand curves intersection) It works pretty well in real life, in eve online and in wow. Tell me where it is abused to the level people want to ban it and dont use it at all?

Your suggestion would not motivate any PvP interaction at all. Most of the time NPC trades are done via barter which would not be affected by inflation at all. Sometimes stuff is sold for money because NPC traders are the only reasonable caps source of fonline. Sometimes in interest era caps were used also for buying but i doubt that any such situation will occur again. So this suggestion would bring only easier way to buy bases and cars and mercs for noobs in later era but also more caps clean traders so profit for noobs is disputable and there is no change for wealthy players. Waste of dev work imho but still entertaining argument on forum.
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Solar on December 16, 2011, 01:42:57 pm
Inflation does make sense. Evenually we will have it.

I'm out of time on my lunch and have to get back to work, but I'll explain my view later :)
Title: Re: Game economy, inflation
Post by: Solar on December 16, 2011, 07:05:12 pm
Briefly, Inflation is really an encouragement to spend now, interest encourages you to spend.

When we do have inflation it should be applied to everything, increasing rewards, prices to both buy and sell and costs of bases, professions etc.

Savings will depreciate (so money hidden in your base will become less valuable) whilst "stuff" keeps its value. Banks giving interest would then allow you to retain the value better.

As everything else goes up at the same rate it would be mean new players would always be in the same relative situation.


You could also have multiple rates of inflation to rebalance rewards vs costs, drop interest rates to reduce world capital and other fun things :)

A lot of the previous replies have said this won't stop X or Y and that is correct. But its not meant to and those things will be fixed in other ways.