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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Graf on October 23, 2011, 02:38:39 pm
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As all of us know, Fonline is mostly known for three things: evil PK's ("wasteland is harsh" stuff), so called "Korean crafting system" and alts. Today I would like to discuss, how to deal with the last one. I understand, that support characters are not bad by themselves, but if you'll spend some time reading the suggestions board, you'll definitely notice, that nearly 90% of suggestions are being rejected because of their futility, until we get rid of alts. So I spent some time looking for a decision. And I think I've got one. Check this out:
To make alts even more useless, along with other measures aimed to reduce the number of alts, I suggest to divide 18 skills to 3 types...
Combat skills:
(http://hostingkartinok.com/image/01201110/b8ac621f32cfd26babfa473d9802eb51.png)
Active skills:
(http://hostingkartinok.com/image/01201110/ee79b6a7f8d003dd0eca2c3a032b6542.png)
Backup skills:
(http://hostingkartinok.com/image/01201110/a4e0b9c4c4619233a9f24c2e7120b436.png)
... and give a character the same number of skill points, except that he will have 3 groups of skills, and in each group he will have equal number of skill-points each level. This means, that once the character with average intelligence gains a level, he will have 15 skill-points for combat skills, 15 for active skills and 15 for backup skills to assign.
To calculate, if we are going the right way, let's check what wiki says about the intelligence (since, it's the most important skill, affecting the number of skill points received by the character):
(http://hostingkartinok.com/image/01201110/551bcd35e19ce08ce46a5fbc2eef9437.jpg)
So, the average intelligence character will have 3 skills over 250% only, which isn't too much, and not even making him a "Jack of all trades". The character with maximum intelligence and all perks will have 3 skills with 300% and 3 more with 118% skill. Nobody (even true PvP apes) needs a characters, that will be able to handle basically everything, but we all want our characters to shoot well, to be able to craft some stuff, that we need, and to travel without of much difficulties. This suggestion allows you to do so, with 21 (or 24th) level cap, and without of breaking the game. It also could make some sense, to lower the number of skills gained by, for example, by 30%.
That's it for now. Please feel free to discuss this suggestion.
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Sounds good, but I think there is already something planned to make combat chars able to craft/travel.
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There were somewhere few exact suggestions, skills divided into 3 parts, get separate skill points into each section, etc. Just need to use search.
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Definitely yes.Not just yes,you guys MUST do it:One-two characters for person will be normal,alting will be just a pleasure and not a necessity.Can t wait for such improvement.And yes,level cap to 24,with the last 3 level insanely hard to get,million xp maybe,so very old and experienced character can have a deserved little edge over molerats-centaur raised characters grown in a couple days.Thank you and can t wait to see that in action!
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No matter how you divide them, FA and doc are very important for pvp char. So even if you divide those skills like that, pvp char would take one main combat skill, doc and fa and then perhaps repair.
Unless other skills provide similar benefit as doc and FA, there's no encouragement to spend skillpoints in other areas. Sneak is an alternative but it needs to be incredibly high to be useful.
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It's not a necessity to place skills like I did. Sneak could be placed in other section, for example in the "backup". But then everybody will be able to be a sneaker and do other stuff in the meantime. So it might be a better idea, if you have to choose between FA/Doc and sneak.
By the way, I thought about dividing all skills on to two categories: combat and non-combat skills.
Pros:
More diversity in builds.
Cons:
Doesn't solve the alting problem completely.
How do you think, is it better or not?
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Everything that can help to get rid off alts - I support. You have my spear, Leonidas.
Combat ape + uber-woodsman-crafting-machine is all I need, really. And by uber-crafter I mean uber-crafter, able to craft any shit craftable. Not toilet-like-chars (use - flush - forget), made and leveled up just to get profession.
avv - there are stimpaks you know, no need to have FA maxed.
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So we can only tag 1 skill in each section? Or maybe put the 3 tags in whatever section you want?
Though I suppose given the choice everyone would prefer the first.
I think it's a great idea, for reasons already mentioned.
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How do you think, is it better or not?
Better for sure, it's just some skills aren't as useful as others which leads to maxing out the useful ones.
avv - there are stimpaks you know, no need to have FA maxed.
FA is very useful skill because it's fast to use in combat, just press 5 and click and it gives instant healing after death provided you succeed to remove weakness.
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Its just doesnt sound right.
What if i need to tag BG and SG? Ill have still just n points for both skills.
Second idea seems much better. I think that, in first group there should be EVERY skill, needed for combat. So: SG, BG, EW, unarmed, Melee, Throwing, Sneak, First Aid, Doc.
The second group.... hmmm... still i think its weird to get same SP to distribute in any skill. Maybe we need some other system for those, non-violent stats. Something based on actual playing style. for example: 2% Outdoorsman for every square of map visited (or 3% if you have tagged OUT). Same for reapir: the more weapons you try to repair, the more skill u get. Same with, dissasembling for science.
Because your suggestion Graf, leads to ending alts era (which i think is really great idea), there should be no any cap of those non combat skills.
Combat: everyone has same chances - build pvp ape you ever wanted.
Non combat: benefits for explorers, barters, scientists, repiarsmen. The more you play your character, the more all-around it becomes.
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No thank you
No need for that
Death to the level cap!
Problem solved
(just changing some skills so that those would be working fine without bumping them up to 250 - 300) (like sneak or repair)
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No level cap? No way, characters should not be able to have 300% in each stat. It will just be molerat grinding, and the distance between noobs and no-lifers will just increase infinitely. I can't believe that you're being serious.
This suggestion won't make it perfect, but it will make it better, whether it is divided into two or three parts.
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No level cap may work if XP will be limited for actions. Right now XP is unlimited, you can gather it without worrying it ends.
Like non-repeatable quests only, and if repeatable, then XP only for fixed number of attempts.
No XP after N kills of some type of mob, or diminishing XP to some number and then 0 after it.
XP from quests gained from 0% to 100% of possible by quality of completion, if quest is for more than 1 player, but less than 4-5 and this number can't be changed at the middle of quest (noone can't enter location after 1st enter), then 100% completion should require some skills like gambling/speech/science/repair/outdorsman/barter in process.
XP gained from mob should be dependant on quality of kill and your level, if you dealt 100% of all damage to mob and it 0% to you, then you'll get full XP, or else some penalty to it.
This way there will be some kind of "level cap", because after some time you won't get XP from actions when all quests are done, all types of mobs are killed on max, etc. The level cap will be different for each player, dependant on its knowledge of game and quality of using this knowledge.
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It looks good, but u miss one thing, SPECIAL requirements for specs and specs limit. For every profession you need an alt. Also Fa, Doc, Outd in 1 group would be hard
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No level cap? No way, characters should not be able to have 300% in each stat. It will just be molerat grinding, and the distance between noobs and no-lifers will just increase infinitely. I can't believe that you're being serious.
This suggestion won't make it perfect, but it will make it better, whether it is divided into two or three parts.
What you seriously think this way ?
Chars don't gain perks , hp after level 21 and can reach level .... for example 30 much simpler = less alts because the existing characters more universal or just better powerbuilds ;D ..... well both.
It looks good, but u miss one thing, SPECIAL requirements for specs and specs limit. For every profession you need an alt. Also Fa, Doc, Outd in 1 group would be hard
Yep , this all suggestion sounds candy and sugar but it isn't all that good , i wish it would be happyland ... hmmm sweetcakes.
But this suggestion is good in overall , i give a green light from my side.
(just changing some skills so that those would be working fine without bumping them up to 250 - 300) (like sneak or repair)
This is a problem too , if you give enough skillpoints then everyone in the wasteland will be invisible , invisible proxy looters , big gunners , snipers , UNSEEN merc leader chars , invisible maxed out traps suicide bombers , each crafter is gonna become invisible sooner or later , that means invisible miners etc. etc. i could go on forever and ever. That would be the era of 12 pe only chars and shit ;D
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I like it! Its like a less invasive version of my old suggestion.
(http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=18780.0)
However it doesn't address the problems already brought up about some skills functionality. With the current system you might as well drop the last 3 skills off of Backup.
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If this suggestion is primary for reducing alts it can not fulfil this requirement much.
For example my alt situation:
1 BG pvp ape + 8 tent alts
1 sniper pvp ape + 8 tent alts
1 energy pvp ape + 8 tent alts
1 BG, 1 SG, 1 armour crafters
1 stealer
1 barterer + 10 tent alts
some other failbuilds forgotten in the ashes of wasteland.
(i realize that there are many other kinds of chars which have to be separate alt like sucuideburster/bomber, merc leader, .... but i dont use them so this is only example.)
As you can see 80% of alts are just lvl1 tent alts. Not mentioned at all
Altough tent alts migh not be considered as relly "active alts" which run around wasteland and meets other players. This suggestion would allow to merge 1pvp ape with 1support char and one crafter char reducing amount of active alts to one third but reducing overall amount of alts by only one third (included reduction of tetn alts associated with support chars.).
Imho the effort to implement that kind of mayor change with all exploits and bugs and reballancing which will occur on the way is not worth one third reduction in alts.
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The thing with skillpoints is that they offer a tradeoffs. But in fonline players go "Tradeoffs? I don't want to trade anything off, I want to keep it all". In singleplayer tradeoffs create replayability but in multiplayer it's alts.
To cut alts, you'd have to cut tradeoffs which basically meant all skills 300%.
Or you can make every char so versatile that he can do most things and the rest he can compensate with equipment. Like cha1 guys drink beer or take mentats to compensate their bad leading skills.
Changing alt resembles just changing equipment these days anyway.
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In singleplayer tradeoffs create replayability but in multiplayer it's alts.
That's pretty much true.
I think there is still a way to eliminate crafting alts, mining alts etc and still having trade offs, but it's a harsh solution. Quickly explained below.
Things needed:
- Battle.net like account system (1 account per person, your account contains all your characters)
- Item crafted / found by character x on account y cannot be given to other characters on account y.
- Only one character from account y can be in faction x.
This way you cannot:
- Gather resources and give them to your main char.
- Craft items and give them to your main char.
This would force...
- ...you and your faction to buy items you and your faction cannot craft from other players / NPCs
- ...faction to look for a specific player (e.g. we need a gunsmith)
That's quick and dirty explanation. This also goes to category "just-popped-into-my-head" so I'm not surprised, if I have missed out something important. If this was combined with the system Graf is suggesting, it could be pretty cool... maybe.
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That's pretty much true.
I think there is still a way to eliminate crafting alts, mining alts etc and still having trade offs, but it's a harsh solution. Quickly explained below.
Things needed:
- Battle.net like account system (1 account per person, your account contains all your characters)
- Item crafted / found by character x on account y cannot be given to other characters on account y.
- Only one character from account y can be in faction x.
This way you cannot:
- Gather resources and give them to your main char.
- Craft items and give them to your main char.
This would force...
- ...you and your faction to buy items you and your faction cannot craft from other players / NPCs
- ...faction to look for a specific player (e.g. we need a gunsmith)
That's quick and dirty explanation. This also goes to category "just-popped-into-my-head" so I'm not surprised, if I have missed out something important. If this was combined with the system Graf is suggesting, it could be pretty cool... maybe.
And why player can't make.... 2nd account for crafter? >_>
Then he'll "buy" it for free from his 2nd account and would be able to use it.
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And why player can't make.... 2nd account for crafter? >_>
Then he'll "buy" it for free from his 2nd account and would be able to use it.
Yeah this. Another thing that makes alts is the encouragement. If the game encourages something, it will be done even through most hideous cheating. It's a big fail in development to have the features and mechanics say "do this" but have the rules that say "don't do it".
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And why player can't make.... 2nd account for crafter? >_>
Then he'll "buy" it for free from his 2nd account and would be able to use it.
I don't know, if it is possible to prevent creation of another account, but you can make it a little bit longer process:
- Email activation (1 email = 1 account)
- MAC-address check
- IP-address check
There must be better ways too, but these came to my mind first. Several checks that doesn't frustrate the "one account users".
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Yeah this. Another thing that makes alts is the encouragement. If the game encourages something, it will be done even through most hideous cheating. It's a big fail in development to have the features and mechanics say "do this" but have the rules that say "don't do it".
Wishful thinking. Using alts will always result in more efficient gameplay unless you delete all features available.
I don't know, if it is possible to prevent creation of another account, but you can make it a little bit longer process:
- Email activation (1 email = 1 account)
- MAC-address check
- IP-address check
Creating multiple email accounts was never a big deal. IP address check is weak (see proxy users, dynamic IP users, or people that play from 1 IP address). MAC-address is easy to change too.
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Wishful thinking. Using alts will always result in more efficient gameplay unless you delete all features available.
Not a big dealio. Alts exist in every mmo out there because people want to try something differend. All that's needed is that an individual player can center his gameplay around one char and do fine in all aspects of gameplay (tc, pvp, crafting, exploring etc) without being tempted to create an alt.
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Creating multiple email accounts was never a big deal. IP address check is weak (see proxy users, dynamic IP users, or people that play from 1 IP address). MAC-address is easy to change too.
Yeah, like I said that I don't know, if there is a way to prevent it completely. These were just examples of ways to make it more frustrating and longer process to create an alt (which is a small improvement). Feel free to suggest better ways, if you think the idea of the system is good. :)
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This thread is about skills overhaul, not alts. My point is, would you kindly control yourself and stick to a bloody topic.
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Concept of the idea looks interesting, I'll give it a thought.
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... 8 tent alts ...
... tent alts ...
As you can see 80% of alts are just lvl1 tent alts. Not mentioned at all
Nothing against you personally, but it is reading things like that which make me (again) wish that I had a button to turn someones tent/base into a radioactive crater.
Onto the suggestion: I'm fond of what has been said, as it tackles an issue I thought on awhile ago. The reason I didn't think on it much is because of the (possible) difficulty involved with altering SPECIAL/Skills in any meaningful way for the game. I'm not sure, but it just strikes me as being one of the more difficult things to even alter, if its possible at all. Only someone who are, say, the Devs or has similar knowledge of coding/whatever with this game could really reply on its feasibility.
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I'm not sure, but it just strikes me as being one of the more difficult things to even alter, if its possible at all. Only someone who are, say, the Devs or has similar knowledge of coding/whatever with this game could really reply on its feasibility.
Nah, it was like that some time ago, it's now highly customizable.
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And why player can't make.... 2nd account for crafter? >_>
Then he'll "buy" it for free from his 2nd account and would be able to use it.
Or simply create limited number of codes, serials and each one would permit to set up one char. However then all people would become "playing on a shared IP" trololo.
One thing would be to make lvling harder so that u wouldnt have 10 pvp apes and 10 mining alts and so on and so on.
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I'd encourage everyone not to waste time on making up various kinds of 'technical' limitations to fight with alts. Should we introduce any of them while leaving other issues intact - it would be just unwise to say the least.
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It would help a alot already if some skills were merged, buffed and the skill cap was lowered to 200.
Ranged weapon skills can honestly remain as they are. Bg, sg and energy have their good and bad guns, except sg burst that kinda sucks. If something should be merged, then it's melee, unarmed and throwing.
Doc and fa merged. Dump free fa and doc, instead make requirement to have doc bag and fa kit. When you use fa kit, it performs fa. When doc bag is used, it performs doc. Call it Medicine.
Steal and sneak merged. Call it Stealth.
Repair merged with lockpick and traps plus it could use a buff so that it's viable in combat. Let's say zero det armors give additional defense so that regular in-combat repairs would be encouraged. Perhaps implement blowing up certain doors, objects and parts of walls with dynamite. Call it Mechanics.
Then we got outdoorsman, science and diplomacy skills. These simply cannot give rational combat bonus so it's very tempting to move them to alts. This is when Graf's skill brances come in. We could have combat, combat support and utility skills divided in three categories like Graf explained.
Fighting skills go to combat. Medical, Mechanics and Stealth go to combat support. Utility has outdoorsman, science and merged speech+barter. Pretty solid division. That way each char has his weapon of choice, combat support ability and an utility ability.
Rest is up to how other character features turn out. Carryweight, perception, action points and perks have their say aswell. Alts will still exist but at least single char is more versatile.
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(...)
so that it's viable in combat.
(...)
These simply cannot give rational combat bonus so it's very tempting to move them to alts. This is when Graf's skill brances come in.
This is more along the lines I've thought about it. Simply because, the only end-game content we've got now, is combat. So, as long as you can have other skills without your combat skills suffering, it makes your character useful in those endgame activities, thus, lowering the need for an alt.
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Avv can you please copy that text into a new suggestion ? :)
Merging skills sounds really efficient.
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There are some topics about merging skills already. If devs do think it's a possible road to walk, one of them should open a new one to let everyone
troll each other share their ideas there instead of spawning a swarm of "Skill merging" alts.
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There are some topics about merging skills already. If devs do think it's a possible road to walk, one of them should open a new one to let everyone troll each other share their ideas there instead of spawning a swarm of "Skill merging" alts.
Agreed, but we're opening such threads when we're ready/close to implementing some feature/change. With this, those are still free discussions, we're not planning to change anything in that regard in the closest future (aka next wipe;) ).
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Then I will wait until the real discussion begins :) Thanks for your quick answer Scypior.
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I like this idea :D. Tumbs up!!