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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: JovankaB on October 10, 2011, 01:39:13 pm
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Arcomage is a card minigame from Might & Magic 7. It's quite enjoyable to play, actually so enjoyable it was released as standalone game later, because people were visiting inns in M&M7 only to play it. I think it could be implemented as Tragic. From game design pov, it's no-brainer, the minigame is proven to have fun factor and rules + deck exist already. The hard part is scripting and changing graphics/style of cards.
Except that it's not collectible, the cards fit FOnline:2238 lore suprisingly well. Just look:
(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/2787/tragict.jpg)
You can see whole original Arcomage deck here (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3104/3154502788_60200a899d_o.jpg)
Although my cards propositions may look like a joke, WHOLE SUGESSTION IS NOT A JOKE.
I really think it's pretty cool idea, because minigame design is actually quite hard and this one is ready.
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Can you provide a more detailed description of how exactly the game works?
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Sounds kinda fun. Finally something to bet on at Ascorti's or New Reno casinos!
But why not using directly Magic modified card/rules (as it's where the "Tragic" come from) ?
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As far as I know MtG is patented (!!!) and they go apeshit about any knock-offs.
Besides I never played MtG, so I couldn't suggest it :P
Also collectible card game would require a lot more cards and I think would be harder to implement.
About presenting the rules, sure I will write it later when I have more time along with more serious proposition how to make it Falloutish and maybe even a proposition how a card could look.
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But why not using directly Magic modified card/rules (as it's where the "Tragic" come from) ?
That would be nice, too bad this "mini"-game will consume too much time to implement, if only it'll have only few cards but then it'll be boring.
Even PC MTG Shandalar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering_(MicroProse)) is a game itself lacks a lot content and it's boring to play after 1-2 days.
About Arcomage, I'm playing Arcomage with other people almost everyday in a browser game based on heroes5, of course it requires tactic and experience, but still, there's too much randomness, like in whole FOnline >_>
After playing some days in Arcomage you'll know what cards enemy have, and when each card will come (if you're playing with 1 deck), so if both players know that game well, it's pure random. It's easier and faster just to roll dice and you win on 1-3 and enemy wins on 4-6, I think that game requires less time to implement and can be played even now with dices.
+How MTG or Arcomage will be implemented in FOnline, too much work for interface. Really much work. Easier will be make Pazaak (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pazaak) from Star Wars, if each player will have a deck with different cards which he can collect/trade, base deck will have only +1/+2/+3/+4/+5 cards, you can buy - and -/+ etc. this will be easier.
Not Arcomage nor Pazaak are from fallout, and making MTG will require too much work (btw Arcomage too).
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Ahh yes arcomage , might and magic 7 one of my favorite rpg's , good times :)
I think it would be awesome , but i don't think that it is worth implementing due to the amount of work needed.
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Isnt Arcomage trademark owned by someone as well ? (formerly 3DO, now dunno)
MTG Shandalar is old as hell and even if there are just several card editions (you got shitloads of expansion sets and editions nowadays) I found it pretty entertaining.
Anyway if someone is willing to work on it, why not.
Can you provide a more detailed description of how exactly the game works?
There is just one deck, both players have the same cards and the victory is determined mainly by randomness of the cards you get and how you gonna spend them.
Theres a tower which you must protect with its counter and a wall. When your tower reaches 0 or 100 you lose/win. By having 3 types of resources with their generators, you use cards to either fortify yourself and gain resource advantage or crush foe´s tower and his economy.
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Also, one resource provides mostly attacks, other mostly defense, and third.... I don't remember what.
Trademark is one thing, patent is another. Trademark protects only name.
About game rules, in M&M7 they were slightly different in every inn, which required different playing tactics.
Also I think player and NPC had it's own decks (with same cards) but I'm not sure about it.
Yea it's quite random but not as much as gambling checks and player still has enough control to make it interesting.
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Isnt Arcomage trademark owned by someone as well ? (formerly 3DO, now dunno)
There're alot parodies on that game, in Space Rangers 2 you can play it in some text quest, but you have base instead of tower, shield instead of wall and of course other resources, etc. The game where I'm playing Arcomage it has the same card names, there's simply no word about "Arcomage", it's just called "card game", and everything is ok.
About rules, it's different, 100 tower is usually too much. Most used is starting 20 tower and 5 wall, 5 of each resource and 2 income, you need to get tower to 50 or all resources to 150 (noone never done this) or get opponents tower to 0 or less.
The tactic is very easy, as you both have the same deck and all cards are unique and only in 1 piece, it means if you have card A, your enemy can't have it until you use/drop it and the deck ends and cycle will start again. Don't drop cards that are useless for you but useful for your enemy and he'll never get it, don't rase your wall on more than ~5-10 if you don't have "Shift" card in your hand, or else enemy will change your and his walls if you'll have too high wall, if only you haven't used that card recently and don't let enemy to get tower >29 if you don't have "Dragon's Eye" card, because it's the only card that raises tower on 20. It means that tactic is very easy, and unfortunately you can't affect gameplay much, it's just who's more lucky.
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The tactic is very easy, as you both have the same deck and all cards are unique and only in 1 piece
Then I'm quite sure that it's a bit different than in M&M7, because you had some double cards there.
Also it could be the case that each player had it's own deck, but I don't remember.
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Then I'm quite sure that it's a bit different than in M&M7, because you had some double cards there.
Also it could be the case that each player had it's own deck, but I don't remember.
Well then it's even more random, if each player will have his own deck, then there's no tactic at all, as you're both can do the same things, simply if you're getting better cards than your opponent, you'll win. I think 2 decks are really stupid to play. Also I can't remember well Arcomage in M&M7/8 as I played only once in each tavern just to earn gold and complete quest, and 11 games aren't much+playing with bot is a bit... boring and I wasn't interested much in this game in M&M7/8.
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If theres is any legal issue then its not about trademark or patent but its all about ip (intellectual property). Beside I would rather see it in fallout design and not related to 2238 in any way ;)
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If theres is any legal issue then its not about trademark or patent but its all about ip (intellectual property).
I think it's not that simple. IP is a basket for all kinds all laws. If you mean copyrights:
See: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html
Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.
Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression.
Rules in a sense of game system can be patented if it's a new invention. Expression of these rules - the text in rulebook is copyrighted. But you can express the same rules in another way, with other words etc.
If copyright was enough, noone would patent new board games.
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Trademark, patent, IP.. you all know what was meant here - if it can be fully used in other projects.
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Well, i was about to suggest making Tragic playable... so i like this suggestion. We need more "vanity" items to make the game more appealing-satisfing-funny.
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How about just make Poker playable at NCR's table?
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Poker is mostly about emotions, not about who's got the best cards, aren't it? If so, then it's pointless to add it to the game. On the other hand, Arcomage or something similar, makes perfect sense.
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If I remember correct, TLA has a poker script. Though, judging by our scripters emotions, the script is very.. uhm... complicated. :> That's why we haven't taken it over yet.
What I personally would love to have is something like pvp gambling, even minor card games, etc. Something that gives some social sidecontent.
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What I personally would love to have is something like pvp gambling, even minor card games, etc. Something that gives some social sidecontent.
Give this a try then:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=15279.msg124943#msg124943 (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=15279.msg124943#msg124943)
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Why not invent a simple card game for the purpose of Fonline then?
I mean classic-styled card game, like a simplified bacarat or blackjack.
Here's my extremely-reduced idea and implementation in the terms of gameplay:
The game is called BRAHMIN SNATCHING, it plays in a dialog box just like crops in Fallout.
Both players draw 3 cards and keep their value secret. There's no need for keeping track of other cards (deck) after this, so mechanics-wise its just about randomising 3 values of 1-10 per player.
To incorporate the element of Luck (from SPECIAL), random card's (1st or 2nd or 3rd) value is substituted by a random number between its initial value and Luck (meaning that low luck can lower this value, while high luck can make it higher).
Now both players get to choose a card from their enemy's hand and discard it (Choose 1, 2 or 3)
This is a part where bluf and poker-face come into play. A roll against Gamble is made during this step for each player.
On success, a player gets a verbose hint about which enemy card is highest ("You sense that the second card is your opponent's best bet")
On failure, player doesn't get any hint at all ("You can't seem to read anything from your opponent's face")
If critical success and failure are to be incorporated, critical success means succes for one player and overrides a success of the other (if any, making it failure). Critical failure gives a pointer like normall success but to the wrong (lowest) card! If both players roll critical success or failure simultaneously, it counts as if they both had normal successes or failures.
Whoever has a total closer to 20, wins the game!
If both players have the same total, the game is a draw.
That's it. Now a little explanation:
- Why is this solution good?
Because its easy to code and doesn't recquire any non-text resources (gfx, sounds) and its equally easy to implement for PvE games (NPC always picking the suggested card depending on its Gamble roll) and for PvP games. Besides it's somewhat random and somewhat based on stats giving a nice mix of real-life luck coupled with in-game Luck and Gamble.
- How could this be used for PvP ecatly?
It could be used together with barter-like window to place bets on both sides.
I think Lexx and Andr3aZ are gonna like the last 2.
;)
Discuss!
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Gamble skill must be totally out of the calculation, or else 'abuse' with gamble-alts will start.
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My linked suggestion is simply altering the already implemented dice to become a non-fakeable dice, because afaik the current dice just post a random number in the .e emote font style.
Would be easy to implement and nice to have imo. What players do with this dice is up to them.
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Gamble skill must be totally out of the calculation, or else 'abuse' with gamble-alts will start.
Dude, thinking like this one should render all skills useless, coz every skill asks for an alt specialised with it!
If someone wants to play a gambler to make his money, then why the hell not?
Especially that NPC-Gamblers' rewards would be small bets like 200 cash at a time and You can't always win anyways.
Besides, cooldown would be added to Gamble, representing the strain (just like with every other skill-related action).
If You want simple bets for Players only, then yeah, dice are fast and easy, but to mirror usage of Gamble skill ingame (Player Character's knowledge of tecniques, cheats, his gambling intuition etc.) my idea is simple and efficient, no?
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My diploma thesis was about intellectual property, so i can give you little advice. In general, rules and ideas of any game could not be protected by intellectual property law. Only graphic, text, name of the game,.. . So if you avoid to use same names, text or graphics in your game, you will not violate the intelectual property law.
On other way, you could violate the competition law or bussiness law. More probably the competition law, but it would be very hard to prove, that your "game in the game" caused harm to holder of rights of Arcomage card game. If i would have more time, i can focus on some recently solved cases of similar topic, but i dont think it would be neccesary. If you little modify the card rules, there should not be any fear of legal consequences.
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Dude, thinking like this one should render all skills useless, coz every skill asks for an alt specialised with it!
PvE gambling would be extremely easy with a pimped up gamble character. You could make money like nothing else. It will result in a lot people going to the machines, producing money. We actually had this issue already in the very beginning.
PvP gambling would be extremely unfair if a pimped up gamble character is playing against a "normal" character. It will either result in nobody playing against anyone anymore or everyone using a gamble alt. Both situations are bad for the gameplay and if a situation can be abused, it will be abused.
Alts are not good. If we try to get rid of them, we shouldn't add situations to the game, where alts are very useful (nobody skills his main character - who needs to be able to fight and maybe craft - to a good gambler).
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PvE gambling would be extremely easy with a pimped up gamble character. You could make money like nothing else. It will result in a lot people going to the machines, producing money. We actually had this issue already in the very beginning.
If you cap maximum caps you can gain per hour and risk factor would be involved, I dont see anything wrong in it. Imagine gambling in New Reno, you might farm some caps, but in the same time, you could get shot while leaving New Reno and lose everything. Its similar to farming staff in encounters.
Gambling skill could only slightly affect chance of winning or net gain. (common logarithm or cube root functions)
PvP gambling would be extremely unfair if a pimped up gamble character is playing against a "normal" character. It will either result in nobody playing against anyone anymore or everyone using a gamble alt. Both situations are bad for the gameplay and if a situation can be abused, it will be abused.
If other player would get basic idea how good the other player is in gambling, it might solve both results.
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Give this a try then:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=15279.msg124943#msg124943 (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=15279.msg124943#msg124943)
I like this.
If you cap maximum caps you can gain per hour
Actually after too much wins casinos ban you, for being suspected oif cheating.
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And then you create another alternative character and continue. Singleplayer rules don't apply to an MMO like 2238.
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PvE gambling would be extremely easy with a pimped up gamble character. You could make money like nothing else. It will result in a lot people going to the machines, producing money. We actually had this issue already in the very beginning.
Did You somehow missed the point with cooldowns?
Its just like with every other production (profession/skill) => cooldown => limiting income.
Besides, like Sarakin said, gambling is most popular in dangerous places:
Den, Redding, Reno...
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Did You somehow missed the point with cooldowns?
Last time I checked there was no "mining" skill.
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My bad, should have phrased it like "gathering or production".
It still doesn't change a thing tho...
Returning to Lexx's point about sigleplayer rules not applying to MMO, that's only because in the current state its more like Fallout-shooter then real MMO. Near-edngame gear can be obtained within a day and lost within seconds, that's why everything instantly depreciates and people never really play (apart from rare RP outbursts) characters who aren't 100% efficent in what they're doing (being mostly just killing others who actually tried to be productive, because its easier to profit this way).
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A "real MMO," okay. Mind you, all other "real MMOs" have noob protection, you can't lose all your gear under most circumstances, and it must be harder to obtain high-level gear to keep players busy, who then continue to pay their subscription. Additionally, a lot things that do work in singleplayer just don't work in multiplayer, because of abuse, which is possible in a lot cases. Just think back at bounty hunting and co. It was scrapped because the mechanic just doesn't work in a multiplayer game. Also you are now saying that because you lose your gear fast, you can't play without min-maxing? That's nice and all, but I don't get what this has to do with the thread and gambling.
Even with a cooldown, gambling would become nothing else than a skill to farm money. Doesn't matter if gamble places are dangerous or not. You wouldn't care about the danger anyway, as you only go there with your high-skilled bluesuit gamble alt.
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PvE gambling would be extremely easy with a pimped up gamble character. You could make money like nothing else. It will result in a lot people going to the machines, producing money. We actually had this issue already in the very beginning.
PvP gambling would be extremely unfair if a pimped up gamble character is playing against a "normal" character. It will either result in nobody playing against anyone anymore or everyone using a gamble alt. Both situations are bad for the gameplay and if a situation can be abused, it will be abused.
Always with excuses and no alternatives.
Do you want to make the game better or you just can't handle the work that needs to be done in order to make this game with some content ?
300% gambling alts = bad
300% skill cap for gambling = alts = bad
300% skill cap balanced even if you max it out , you won't be able to win all the time = alts = bad
lower the skill cap for example 200 and balance max that you won't win all the time = better
lower the skill cap for example 200 and balance max that you won't win all the time and set it up that you don't gain almost any significant bonus after .... let's say 160 or less = good
Since some universal crafter alts will be able to spare skill points into gambling due to it doesn't need shitloads of skillpoints , there shouldn't be any pure gambling alts.
Solution found , but fuck. Was it so hard ? No , needs work and implementing - yes ! This is considered minor stuff since devs have to do something bigger all the time - yes. Will this be implemented - most probably yes and we never know ! When we grow old and die.
since it's not perfect , nobody is gonna give a crap.
carry on in content less fonline 2238
i had to say what i wish to say
btw most people discuss pointless things that doesn't lead to anything else than more fuck.
Denying someones idea finding reasons and arguments why it won't work , what people should do is fulfill the idea.
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Even with a cooldown, gambling would become nothing else than a skill to farm money. Doesn't matter if gamble places are dangerous or not. You wouldn't care about the danger anyway, as you only go there with your high-skilled bluesuit gamble alt.
People to do what is the most profitable for them. If I was ganged there regularly, I wouldnt consider it as profitable and rather find other means how to make my living. Its all about choices: Some like to craft their stuff, some rather kill NPCs, others would rather gamble.
Besides, I really dont know why you lean on linear skill functions e.g. 300% skill is twice the better than 150% skill. If you really want to limit alts (not gambling alts, but generally), why you dont make skill functions more cube root/common logarithm like. (The bigger the skill, the lesser gain)
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Always with excuses and no alternatives.
Do you want to make the game better or you just can't handle the work that needs to be done in order to make this game with some content ?
Haha, good fun. I am showing what the problems are and the response is "excuses, excuses!" I don't have the answer to all questions and I don't claim to have the answer to all questions. But I can tell you what will not work in the game, because of a) experience and b) of what we tried and failed with already.
With the next update, we are changing things already to make alts less attractive. If I remember correct, it was said already a few times- if not, then you know it now.
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What's wrong with alts If You want to wait 10 minutes to log out and in?
Oh wait, I get it! Its all wrong because You can't manage multilogers.
Simply put - people will do all kinds of dumb shit because they CAN.
But why would they constantly try other chars? Because they're BORED.
Because there's no satysfying CONTENT to keep one playing same char
other than PvP ape which is always good for the lulz when You ruin
someone else's shit.
Always compromising with "multiloging issue in mind" only leads to
halfassed solutions, why don't You get rid of the real problem once and
for all and start from there?
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Multi logging isn't the problem, the problem is combat alt, barter alt, crafting alt,... We are trying to reduce the need for alts, nothing more. Besides, the 10 minutes timeout can be cheated around. Not that this has anything to do with this thread now, though.
Gambling must be fair if you play against other players and it should not become an easy way to farm lots of money when using machines and such. Both can't be achieved if you have a gamble skill which makes you better in winning (in a singleplayer game, this doesn't matter, as it only influences your character and not other players). And even if you can read in the description of your opponent how good his gamble skill is-- would you want to play with anyone who is better than you? He probably will win due to stats, not with his own abilities. It would result in a pure luck based game and nothing serious.
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Wait, aren't skills supposed to be better with higher number?
If not, what's the fucking point of having any skills at all?
Wasn't all that the idea of RPGs in the first place? Numeric
representations of "how good a character is at performing
action X", rings a bell?
Suppose I agree with You, then remove combat skills and replace
them with "who aims better", add moves and combos for unarmed
and melee, turn First Aid and Doctor into "patch him up minigame",
and finally drop the SPECIAL and Perks because its all those stats
asking for alts again, finally just wipe Fonline servers and make
a Fallout-themed skins for Counterstrike lol.
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Some skills work, some don't. Deal with it. Even in the original games, the gamble skill was useless and in the later games (including Van Buren) it was even scrapped totally.
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Gambling useful only in singleplayer? That's umm, interesting, hehe
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PvE Gambling in New Reno.
Gambling skill should not determine the possibility of winnning or loosing during gambling, but only ability to play at different tables/games. Max needed gambling skill could be cca 100 skill points and this skill could raise (to level 100) by using gambling tables or games. (if you dont want to add your own skill points). So in general, you dont need to tag gambling skill and gambling will be alternative minigame, you can test.
The possibility of win or loose during gambling should be set like in real world machines: cca 40 percent chance to win (=>60 percent chance that money will stay in gambling machine).
So your skill in gambling will only determine, if you can invest more money in different kind of gambling machines.
But i would also like possibility, that faction can rent, occupy, control, what ever, some casino and they could get reward from casino income. I can imagine situation, where in Junktown Don Gizmo casino will get as a reward for temporary time (one week) winner of hand to hand combat in local arena. Maybe the winner team could get all of the winning money in the casino (win - lose = reward). But because i think that this is too complicated, they can get only constant amount of money per one player who played in the gambling machine (of course, it has to be lower amount than minimal bet).
PvP trading card.. i will rather see very rare, random tragic card, that if you collect some of them, you can "use them" and this will give you small bonus in some skill, or perk. Lets players create their own "game" how to get different card, or let them barter this cards,... .
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Some skills work, some don't. Deal with it. Even in the original games, the gamble skill was useless and in the later games (including Van Buren) it was even scrapped totally.
Hm how about scrapping it then and introducing Piloting or Driving in its place.
This skill would determine the speed of the car, the detoration and the fuel usage.
Under certain percentage player shouldn't be able to drive the car at all.
This could bring in some perks too.
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Hm how about scrapping it then and introducing Piloting or Driving in its place.
This skill would determine the speed of the car, the detoration and the fuel usage.
Under certain percentage player shouldn't be able to drive the car at all.
This could bring in some perks too.
And a lot of taxi-driver alts :(
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Well sadly all the skills that used bring in an alt...
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And completly different question - anyone is willing to design traditional TtG card game (traditional one)? ;)
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Gambling skill should not determine the possibility of winnning or loosing during gambling, but only ability to play at different tables/games. Max needed gambling skill could be cca 100 skill points and this skill could raise (to level 100) by using gambling tables or games. (if you dont want to add your own skill points). So in
I agree. Gambling should be a sort of "minigame" stuff, maybe with useless reward apart from caps (eg collectibles like Gold Watch)
And completly different question - anyone is willing to design traditional TtG card game (traditional one)? ;)
I dont get the point. Why?
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I dont get the point. Why?
For sake of making something else than writing bullshit?
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Skejwen correct me if I mistaken but by traditional you mean a normal real card game one thats not played on computer. If yes I think making one would be quite awesome but real hard not the graphical part after all there are plenty of guys with talent around here. The hardness would be making up rules and the way of playing.
Personally if we put the card game in Fonline it should be as simply as possible and probably text based again no idea for it from me just like for the rule set in case of a real card game.
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And completly different question - anyone is willing to design traditional TtG card game (traditional one)? ;)
I could do that... I am making my own card game in post-apocalytic universe
I can make some rules and graphics (ready cards)
If i do so will it be implmented?