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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: jonny rust on August 19, 2011, 11:36:03 pm
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Here's my two cents on the current crafting situation, I'm hoping it will;
A) cap the ridiculously massive amount of crafted items that are currently raping our economy,
B) discourage alting and dual/fast logging as emphasis will be taken off of mining and moved to scavenging.
C) put poor/lone/new players on more equal footing in your average encounter with old players since high tier items will not be as commonly used around the waste. My hope is that high tier items become more precious as a result.
D) encourage player cooperation and GET PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR CAVES!
First of all since scavenging does not require great stamina as much as it requires patients there should be either a far shorter cooldown or the cooldown should be completely avoidable by eating food (as per scypiors post), mining can stay as is but will no longer be as important.
Crafting of weapons should mostly be limited to modifications, i.e. you can't make a FAL but if you get one you can modify it's magazine capacity etc. This way you don't need to horde materials as you will only need them when you find or purchase an item that can be upgraded.
The ONLY weapons that should be totally craftable imo are improvised weapons such as the pipe-rifles, zip guns, flamer, laser pistol, molotovs, spears, and knives. Spiked knuckles can be fashioned from brass knuckles witch perhaps should be craftable too.Everything else is factory made and factory made things aren't created at a workbench in a cave!
As for armor, I think that leather jackets should be purchasable, they are cheap anyway and I don't know anyone who actually makes them (ok, maybe they are craftable but i still think most people will opt to buy them instead considering it can be a pain in the ass to find fibre, unless you don't have a knife with you, then you see it everywhere ;)). Then you should be able to upgrade it to a combat leather jacket, which can be upgraded to leather armor, which can then be upgraded to leather armor MK2 with an increasing requisite of repair for each stage.
Metal armor is also only purchasable but can be modified into metal armor MK2 with enough repair AND/OR science skill which can then be modified into tesla armor with high enough science skill.
Combat armor is only purchasable, however it can be upgraded to MK2 with high enough repair AND/OR science skill.
BA is only obtainable from the brotherhood (if they are willing to sell it at all).
PA of course is very rare if it's even obtainable at all. However if it is obtainable then I don't see why it shouldn't/couldn't be hardened by players with enough science.
some of you are going to hate this and some will love it, I guess its just that kind of suggestion :)
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Well, i dont like the "upgrade only" system you are proposing, even if it makes sense. However i should remind you that half of the weapons in circulation, statin' to Fallout lore, are crafted after the apocalypse, sometimes by reverse engineering/finding blueprints.
I agree with armors being purchasable-only, as after all, while one can make a gun in the desert, making a Combat Armor is something more difficult, otherwise almost all the guys in Fallout 1&2 would have Combat Armor. However, apart from the skill requirement, i also suggest implementing a requirement in materials, cause you cannot go from a combat armor to a combat armor mark 2 by just "repairing" or "using science" on it.
And i agree with Power Armor being obtainable.
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I realize I didn't mention mats anywhere but I intended for them to be requisites as well, hence the scavenging, I don't have time to revise it just now but I will later on!
as for guns and reverse engineering, I think that crafting complex weapons should be reserved by people like the gun runners, NCR, BOS, enclave etc. In other words, people with the facilities.
Perhaps if players want to craft any non-improvised weapons they will need to go to mariposa which will make it potentially dangerous to craft high tier weapons? just a thought!
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Well, maybe Mariposa could be one of he "free" places, otherwise they could pay a fee to one of the bigger faction with facilities (Enclave, Gun Runner, BoS) to use one of their weapon production facilities, and make their own weapons. What do ya think 'bout this, mon?
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I think that NPC factions with weapon making facilities would guard them preciously, BOS and Enclave will be far more secretive next test as we know, and I think gun runners would not want people to use their facilities since it's their lively hood and they would rather sell weapons to players.
If players join the BOS thats another story, however I'm against that as it would encourage alting since players would need to stay with the faction in order to craft... one of the down sides I s'pose.
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Well, for the enclave i suppose you are right... BoS have membership, i forgot that ;D,... but Gun Runners are still merchants, and money is money mon! Maybe they could set up some "Public Gunsman Workbench", that can be used for a quite high fee (up to 1k-1.5k caps) so that they might be a problem for low level, loners, and poor players, but will be no problem for skilled merchants (maybe also a barter check to reduce price a little?).
Main downside: more PK traps around the Boneyard, due to it being a forced place to craft.
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Everything else is factory made and factory made things aren't created at a workbench in a cave!
A video proof you clearly don't know what are you talking about. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT_d9-52D04) Making guns is even simplier than making bows because wood needs seasoning, and metal doesn't.
What you suggested won't take people out of their tents or caves but will do the opposite. If you want people to go out and do something instead of being afraid of their stuff you need to let them accumulate it. If I have spare armors and guns at my place I have no problem with losing one (which is EXTREMALY EASY) because I have spares. Upgrading jackets, making them only purchasable etc. is even worse, at some point some people will be able to buy out every single one of them, other players won't get any armor. Just like with caps, it's a frequent problem that vendors have no caps. As for "omg super rare items plx" - been there, done that. Already tested out with Combat Armors and so they ended up as base decoration.
And one more thing: Fun > realism. I'm fine with making armors out of junk as long as it's fun and doesn't include boring cooldowns.
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That guys is in Pakistan, in a weapon market. Not in a Gas Station that had been abadoned for over 200 years, that has seen nuclear holocaust, raiders, and who knows what other shit.
You are basically suggesting making Gauss Pistols with junk.
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That guys is in Pakistan, in a weapon market. Not in a Gas Station that had been abadoned for over 200 years, that has seen nuclear holocaust, raiders, and who knows what other shit.
You are basically suggesting making Gauss Pistols with junk.
No, he's suggesting making assault rifles out of junk. It doesn't take much to do it; just some machining skill and a lathe is about all you'd need. Apparently the only piece of machinery you can't make with a lathe is a bigger lathe, but I'm not speaking from experience here.
As an example, partisans in the second world war were churning out STENs by the bucketload. Admittedly, it wasn't a very complex design, but still. It's not really a matter of skill, just patience and having an example of the design to use as a base. I came across a PDF once of a 9mm submachinegun from some sort of "anarchists cookbook" type work; didn't save it, but it wasn't that complicated.
In other news:
http://garagegunsmithing.com/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=56&time=1263236919
Now, as for me, I haven't really got a stake either way, although if this gets implemented, it'd be important to make weapons easier to fix. As it is, you get a gun, wear it out in less than two or three levels, throw it away, and buy a new one. As far as I can tell, the ingame economy's pretty much built around disposable firearms.
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A) cap the ridiculously massive amount of crafted items that are currently raping our economy,
Economy does not exist, so leave it. Caping anything in this game causes only more and more specialized alts.
B) discourage alting and dual/fast logging as emphasis will be taken off of mining and moved to scavenging.
Alting and logging stuff won't be necessary if cooldowns gonna be removed. Get rid off reasons to make alts, so alts will die by themselves.
C) put poor/lone/new players on more equal footing in your average encounter with old players since high tier items will not be as commonly used around the waste. My hope is that high tier items become more precious as a result.
More precious = more time required to get it, right? So this means no one would risk losing such precious thingie by wearing/using it.
D) encourage player cooperation and GET PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR CAVES!
Sure, but not by increasing butthurt and boredom.
As for armor, I think that leather jackets should be purchasable, they are cheap anyway and I don't know anyone who actually makes them (ok, maybe they are craftable but i still think most people will opt to buy them instead considering it can be a pain in the ass to find fibre
So now you know one (http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/4126/kurtki.jpg).
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Totally agree with wichura.
D) is totally nescessary to make game look alive. I think that the bes way would be introducing some game mechanisms which would encourage crafting and trading in cities and high level stuff oriented repeatable quests.
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D) encourage player cooperation and GET PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR CAVES!
But this is like saying "make the game better".
It's very tricky to make it working, without killing fun for PKers, with making sure game is original, requiring huge updates to UI, etc.
I hope it's something we'll hear more about in future, as it's to be honest the most important stuff for the game.
It's irrelevant how powerful plasma rifle is, or how long it takes to make combat armor, if there is no player cooperation in MULTIPLAYER game.
TC was probably a success, but outside of it, game is still lacking quite a lot.
Remmember this is not just about making some flashy fancy stuff, adding friend lists or whatever, players should still care about IFF status, and should still be able to hurt their friends intentionally or not. That's just this game.
But on top of this, they should be able to benefit from having friends, they should be able to play with friends without being interrupted by design flaws (eg. clicking "follow" a bit late or whatever similar).
I really look forward for any improvement. Though there will surely be a lot of problems and strife before it's done.
Just have a look - game is English, but you can type name in cyrillic. Naturally, big part of community will not be able to even read your name.
Should you be able to have that kind of name? Is it fair to just ban language?
Yeah game development is so interesting.
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i like this suggestion.
At some point in the beta the craft system was like this, no gathering cooldowns, resources findable in encounters, only a small amount of weapons where available to craft and some upgrades for the other weapons. And i really enjoyed this game in that era.
Ofcourse there was a lot of improvement at this point, but still dont like the actual craft system.
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Economy does not exist, so leave it.
now you know one (http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/4126/kurtki.jpg).
I didn't know we were giving up on the economy
Caping anything in this game causes only more and more specialized altsnow you know one (http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/4126/kurtki.jpg).
But this cap will apply to any character and part of this idea is actually lowering skill requirements since modifications are simpler than building entire weapons.
More precious = more time required to get it, right? So this means no one would risk losing such precious thingie by wearing/using it now you know one (http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/4126/kurtki.jpg).
Not more time to get it, just less chance. High tier weapons will be fought for instead of simply crafted. And yes, people will need to be more selective of when they do and don't use their best equipment, hopefully promoting more of a mix of equipment in regular PvP.
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Loooks like something like "I`m wanna be the only one to wear that Bozar/Gauss/YK/SniperRifle/Pankor/Whichever else "best" weapon"
If it`s obtainable by some certian way everyone will have it like they do now.
Else it`s not about a fair game
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Loooks like something like "I`m wanna be the only one to wear that Bozar/Gauss/YK/SniperRifle/Pankor/Whichever else "best" weapon"
If it`s obtainable by some certian way everyone will have it like they do now.
Else it`s not about a fair game
I actually prefer playing lo-tech and as for fair... well is the waste meant to be fair?
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One way is to remove crafting at all. So you have to find your gun and rare ammo. Wasteland is tooo safe now that walkspeed changed...
Also encouters have to happen once per 2 to 10 seconds, not something like "I was walking from klemath to Glow and have encountered nothing... Next day I have 10 encounters traveling from Hub to Junktown"
If ammo and weapons will be rare at all Unarmed/Melee will be usefull.
Again some big factions are making theyr factories or something...
Crafting can be nerfed to just upgrading hunting rifle into scoped one and other same stuff.
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One way is to remove crafting at all. So you have to find your gun and rare ammo...
...Crafting can be nerfed to just upgrading hunting rifle into scoped one and other same stuff.
exactly, thats what I'm going for with this. Aside from very low tier weapons players can only upgrade/modify what they find.
Since you can't make a high tier weapon to farm more you will need numbers instead, that means more player coop in PvE.
If ammo and weapons will be rare at all Unarmed/Melee will be usefull.
A world where everyone has a few points on Unarmed would be nice imo. Its a skill which one would need to fall back regularly in a realistic wasteland.
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Good idea, but not for the part of people who like to craft just such a system as it is now. I play on this server mainly because of her. I know the server where the main part of your ideas is realised - TLA. Go there.
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Crafting is awesome, it is a great feeling when you gather a whole bunch of stuff to make some gear for your later travels. Nerf crafting and the only chars that will have INT are sneakers. It will be as bad as CH usage is now.
EDIT: ok sneakers and those who use a few specific combat perks or play medic :P
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Crafting is awesome, it is a great feeling when you gather a whole bunch of stuff to make some gear for your later travels. Nerf crafting and the only chars that will have INT are sneakers. It will be as bad as CH usage is now.
http://fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Bonus_Rate_of_Fire
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http://fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Bonus_Rate_of_Fire
Perks reworked after wipe, requirement lowered.
Crafting is awesome, it is a great feeling when you gather a whole bunch of stuff to make some gear for your later travels. Nerf crafting and the only chars that will have INT are sneakers. It will be as bad as CH usage is now.
Huh, many snipers/energy need those 6 Int to have proper skill. Having good doctor is a great help too.
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Even if doctor right now isnt that incredible help. Cause before it's cooldown finishes you will probably explode due to your inability to move, or aim, or throw a grenade.
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Even if doctor right now isnt that incredible help. Cause before it's cooldown finishes you will probably explode due to your inability to move, or aim, or throw a grenade.
I was talking about basic doctor skill (90-100), which allow to actually heal your limbs.
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Oh. I thought doctor in the middle of the fight ::)
Just a question: doesnt seems strange to you that you can heal your eyes?
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Nope :D Its same question, you are dying and with one first aid u are fulyl health ?
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ok doctor prof has been mentioned now, this suggestion does not effect doctor craftables. In fact the doctor profession is already sort of in keeping with my suggestion, i.e. you cannot make syringes but need to find or buy them in order to make stims, hence stims are like an upgraded syringe.
@Josh- I'm sorry, I know this suggestion completely undercuts the A.A. Co. and I have a lot of respect for you guys. If it makes you feel better it also undercuts my own future endeavors but I felt that it was still important suggest this as it makes sense to me.
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@Josh- I'm sorry, I know this suggestion completely undercuts the A.A. Co. and I have a lot of respect for you guys. If it makes you feel better it also undercuts my own future endeavors but I felt that it was still important suggest this as it makes sense to me.
I would be ok with changes to the crafting system if they were for the bettering of the game, but I don't see how anything is to be gained from nerfing the crafting system. Adding and improving stuff is great and that's what they're doing now. But taking stuff away or nerfing it because some demographic of players is unhappy with others crafting instead of scavenging... we all know how great things turn out when one group takes things away from those who are different from them or their ways. I would really hate it if the devs had to remove features because of another front in the fun vs realistic or pure combat vs other bits too wars. Why can't we just leave the current options of both crafting and scavenging for guns or retool it if really needed? That way can just go about our preferred ways and all parties be content.
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Just a question: doesnt seems strange to you that you can heal your eyes?
Not any more strange than being able to heal a crippled leg. We are all Fallout Jesus. \o/
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I would be ok with changes to the crafting system if they were for the bettering of the game, but I don't see how anything is to be gained from nerfing the crafting system. Adding and improving stuff is great and that's what they're doing now. But taking stuff away or nerfing it because some demographic of players is unhappy with others crafting instead of scavenging... we all know how great things turn out when one group takes things away from those who are different from them or their ways. I would really hate it if the devs had to remove features because of another front in the fun vs realistic or pure combat vs other bits too wars. Why can't we just leave the current options of both crafting and scavenging for guns or retool it if really needed? That way can just go about our preferred ways and all parties be content.
I get that some people really enjoy crafting while others never bother with it, and I wouldn't want to take something people enjoy doing away from them. However I seriously doubt that this idea will ever get implemented anyway and I didn't even necessarily suggest it so that it would. Besides, the thread has gotten seriously derailed...
I just hope that through discussions here we can refine ideas until we end up with something that works for everyone... and the economy too.
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Virtual economies are almost always going to be whacked. The foundation of economics is scarcity and as we all know there is no scarcity when you reach the higher levels and have rl experience under your belt. I get that mining/crafting is an exploitable way to have unlimited production of guns/armors/caps to satisfy your needs but the same could be said about farming encounters. The only way that the supply side of the game's economy could be kept in check would be for there to exist a limited resource. In pay to play games this would be the one that rl money would buy. As fonline's license prevents that this method won't work but the exchange rates between the pay resource and the rest of the game are usually shit anyways. An alternative would be for the GMs to spend their time making sure that there are only so much of everything in the game, only x sniper rifles in the hands of players, if theres x, then no more will drop until 1 breaks or is sold and disappears. I feel like this would only make the hoarding habit worse and prevent noobs from EVER getting equipment (you swing your hammer but there is no ore left/you can't make that now, there are too many already in existence/raider drops: nothing). On the plus side the lag problem would probably be reduced and unarmed use would go from select few to mainstay of all but a few rich players...
BTW this is all theoretical, I personally would prefer our current system and all its myriad flaws as opposed to the problems that would come with most of these.
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Not any more strange than being able to heal a crippled leg. We are all Fallout Jesus. \o/
Ok, actually i can heal my leg, with a stick, some bandages, maybe some anestetic. But if you can heal your eyes, this means that you have eyes on your hands!
(http://sgnewwave.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/pans-labyrinth-1.jpg)
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Virtual economies are almost always going to be whacked. The foundation of economics is scarcity and as we all know there is no scarcity when you reach the higher levels and have rl experience under your belt. I get that mining/crafting is an exploitable way to have unlimited production of guns/armors/caps to satisfy your needs but the same could be said about farming encounters. The only way that the supply side of the game's economy could be kept in check would be for there to exist a limited resource. In pay to play games this would be the one that rl money would buy. As fonline's license prevents that this method won't work but the exchange rates between the pay resource and the rest of the game are usually shit anyways. An alternative would be for the GMs to spend their time making sure that there are only so much of everything in the game, only x sniper rifles in the hands of players, if theres x, then no more will drop until 1 breaks or is sold and disappears. I feel like this would only make the hoarding habit worse and prevent noobs from EVER getting equipment (you swing your hammer but there is no ore left/you can't make that now, there are too many already in existence/raider drops: nothing). On the plus side the lag problem would probably be reduced and unarmed use would go from select few to mainstay of all but a few rich players...
BTW this is all theoretical, I personally would prefer our current system and all its myriad flaws as opposed to the problems that would come with most of these.
Well, current system is on it's way out too. We'll see what the schematic system brings when it comes. Depending on how that works out we can reconvene here :)
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I'm gonna briefly shed some light on what will future comes and how it addresses your concerns:
a) scarcity of resources - gathering cooldowns are gonna be removed in favor of scavenging locations. On those locations, resources will be spawned occasionaly, on known rates. This means, they will be unlimited, but 'countable' (we know exactly how much is gonna be produced in a world per unit of time, as opposed to gathering cooldowns, where we knew exactly how much one player could produce in a unit of time)
b) high tier stuff - it was never meant to be as easily acquirable. Some stuff will require using those workbenches that are in some PvP/PvE locations. It was always meant to be this way.
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high tier stuff
I personally think that the actual "high tier" should be obtainable only via quests-scavenging in particular places (example: Mariposa, The Glow, SAD...) and not craftable.
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I'm gonna briefly shed some light on what will future comes and how it addresses your concerns:
a) scarcity of resources - gathering cooldowns are gonna be removed in favor of scavenging locations. On those locations, resources will be spawned occasionaly, on known rates. This means, they will be unlimited, but 'countable' (we know exactly how much is gonna be produced in a world per unit of time, as opposed to gathering cooldowns, where we knew exactly how much one player could produce in a unit of time)
makes sense, will the mines be removed?
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makes sense, will the mines be removed?
Don't know yet how exactly it will look like, probably HQ ones will be some kind of dungeon with PvE.
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Don't know yet how exactly it will look like, probably HQ ones will be some kind of dungeon with PvE.
Awesome! Thats the thing wich can make mining fun.