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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Rio on July 12, 2011, 03:56:41 pm

Title: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Rio on July 12, 2011, 03:56:41 pm
   Like many players I like PvP and I notice, the changes are needed. Fights end too quickly. My favorite example: 2 x burst with LSW in the back. Much depends on luck, not much depends on skills, that should be obtained along playing. Every new player and his neighbors download PvP build from forum. At the same time they don't know why it looks like that. After a few days of exping they come into PvP fights and they have the same chances like experienced players. More things should rely on player's experience.
   I was thinking about new skill like "taking cover" or sth like that. Presently, it's hard to use obstacles in fight. When the skill bonus for sneaker standing near a barrel was introduced, I thought it's the thing I will never use. However, once I was running away from hostile sneaker and reminded about barrel. I used it, survived and the enemy was surprised. I noticed, enviroment object can diversify the gameplay.
   My idea is about existence of area, that gives you additional damage resistance points, when you stand behind some kind obstacle or near corner of the building. It protects you only from defined directions and this area increases within raising of the skill. It'd allow creating new unique tactics, give an advantage to experienced players, who knows spots well and make fights longer. Fact, obstacle protects you only from one direction and make impossible existence of ideal obstacles and forces players to fight with various ways.
   I've seen an idea about increasing HPs to 300-500 and decreasing damage of weapons. In my opinion, it will make the fights longer, but in the artificial, innatural method. The winner will be a person with larger amount of stimpacks.
   I am not sure, if it's the best description, so I paste a picture:

(http://i0.simplest-image-hosting.net/168bf183b2abe8bc9188aacc163dd507/stupiditywithoutborders.png)

   Blue area depends on skill and gives damage resistance points. In closer area, that are not filled with colour, there is no effect.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: T-888 on July 12, 2011, 04:12:01 pm
This is pure genius :) dammit this is really good you could even implement to be able to take cover behind a teammate ;D for an example a sniper stays behind a tank big gunner that way gaining a tactical advantage therefore increasing the chance of success , using obstacles and " real " cover to your own advantage , i hope i am not missing something because on paper this feature sounds very good it would promote team play and the skill cap of the player in my opinion.

So +1
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: avv on July 12, 2011, 04:48:46 pm
Rio you're not the first to suggest this. But yes, something like this would add to the gameplay. In addition some objects that block the view at the moment could be turned as transparent cover instead. Car wrecks and cactuses come to mind first.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: jonny rust on July 12, 2011, 04:58:03 pm
I'm totally on board with this, the game absolutely NEEDS it.

I agree with avv in that (and I have posted this somewhere else) anything that can be seen over but not walked through (and I believe there is a specific marker for these objects used in the map maker) should be usable as variable amounts of cover, i.e. things like cacti (being the lowest form of cover) to things like car wrecks (being the best).

I dont however think this should be another skill (not unless we start to consolidate existing skills as suggested in the "useless skills etc." post) as it would probably spread our limited skill points too thin.

Perhaps it could instead be based on agility and luck? and add to damage resistance somehow.

It would obviously have a lot of kinks to work out, all the more reason to implement this sooner rather than later. 
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Crazy on July 12, 2011, 05:13:07 pm
I don't think it should be linked with any skill (even a retard understand how to use a cover), an heavy AC bonus or DR bonus when you're protected by a cover would be enough (which not apply from back nor close range obviously). Yeah that would be awesome...

But already suggested at least two times or more, and I think dev will implement it as soon they will find a way to do it. Which is not the case yet...
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Sh4D on July 12, 2011, 05:14:17 pm
great idea, this was a thing i thought off long time ago. Not to mention that if we have 3d critters it will be easy to make them even crouch! and if everything is in 3d it will be stupid to not use the hittest possibilities of a 3d engine, which would allow covers like this, even if in 2d its still a loto f job because people can shot u from different directions and dev would need to make it so the cover knows if they're shooting u from front, side or back which would modify the cover effects. Thats still possible but would be way more easy in 3D. Also using 3d would allow a completly different game play where u can move and aim shot with mouse, and its in my mind stupid to modify all graphics to 3d if ure not changing the gameplay. I end my off topic rambling.
peace
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Aquare on July 12, 2011, 05:43:35 pm
   This skill should be based on sth. In my case I propose skill points, like Rio did, in order to deprive combat characters of possessing every ability. For instance if someone choose skill "taking cover", he's not able to have insanely high FA, DOC. That could create some space for medic character on the battleground (TC). If the game is various, it's not boring. One character cannot be expert in every domain. Using obstacles one could balance sniper and big gunner class.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Johnnybravo on July 12, 2011, 06:00:58 pm
No, Fallout graphics make it hard to even think about such feature.

Unlike tactics, most of fallout scenery was not done with anything similar in mind, and also any 1hex cover would not be sufficient - only one line of hexes would loose visibility, and there is little to no desired 3 hex scenery.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: jonny rust on July 12, 2011, 06:25:15 pm
No, Fallout graphics make it hard to even think about such feature.

Unlike tactics, most of fallout scenery was not done with anything similar in mind, and also any 1hex cover would not be sufficient - only one line of hexes would loose visibility, and there is little to no desired 3 hex scenery.

there are lots of car wrecks and there could be more to make this viable, also once we go 3D it will be possible to crouch or go prone behind rocks falls and such.

also a barrel is one hex and is sufficient to one man to hide behind.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: DocAN. on July 12, 2011, 07:01:00 pm
If you know how to play You dont need any "take cover", You just know how to use walls and other map elements to ambush Your enemies.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: jonny rust on July 12, 2011, 07:09:15 pm
If you know how to play You dont need any "take cover", You just know how to use walls and other map elements to ambush Your enemies.

right, that's knowing how to play under current conditions, adding another dimension like taking cover would meaning adding and learning new ways to play.

So your saying, don't fuck with tradition?
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: DocAN. on July 12, 2011, 07:11:07 pm
Im saying that any sneaker with LSW will kill You from behind becouse You have to low HP to survive atack and no "cover" system will change it!
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: jonny rust on July 12, 2011, 07:16:38 pm
so? flanking is an important tactic and if you have your flank properly covered then it could be avoided.

I dont see why anyone should survive a pointblank burst from an LSW, it makes no sense. Just make sure you don't end up in that position...
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Rio on July 12, 2011, 08:12:06 pm
    You can have fair fight with LSW sneaker even if you have sniper rifle when you are mobile, know map(covers)-it is my goal, it is why I created this topic. I assume that players will change positions and covers many times to find good occasions to shot. If you make mistake you hurt but no lose immadietly.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Jotisz on July 12, 2011, 08:33:18 pm
Quote
there are lots of car wrecks and there could be more to make this viable, also once we go 3D it will be possible to crouch or go prone behind rocks falls and such.

also a barrel is one hex and is sufficient to one man to hide behind.
Just a little thing from 3d question and answers
Just in case:
We will not add Fallout: Tactics movement like crouch-walking, etc. So if such animations will be implemented, it's only a kind of "emoticon" like waving hands and such.
I think this is ok since though PvP is a big deal of the game but its an rpg.
Personally I think we need to find a higher impact for the other skills like for example speech. A char should able to use his/her speech skill and have the advantages in fallout with high speech a lot of fight was avoidable...
The only skill I would implement would be driving therefore players would need to learn to drive which should be the case since the average wastelander rarely had a car. They should learn to use and drive it.
The cover idea is nice btw but it shouldn't be skill based.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Jackall on July 12, 2011, 09:12:09 pm
I always tought about a method to get DR or AC when using covers in a way similar to the strategy game Company of Heroes. Shooting from windows or from a fence, a rock, a barrel should give AC or DR. I never suggested it since I think that something like that would encourage camping.

Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: jonny rust on July 12, 2011, 09:23:40 pm
    You can have fair fight with LSW sneaker even if you have sniper rifle when you are mobile, know map(covers)-it is my goal, it is why I created this topic. I assume that players will change positions and covers many times to find good occasions to shot. If you make mistake you hurt but no lose immadietly.

right, after your opponent has wasted his AP on your cover you know that you have time to run to the next bit of cover, perhaps making your way closer to him or closer to your escape.

there would be more time spent waiting for your opponent to make a dumb mistake leaving himself open, as is the case in a real fight.

I always tought about a method to get DR or AC when using covers in a way similar to the strategy game Company of Heroes. Shooting from windows or from a fence, a rock, a barrel should give AC or DR. I never suggested it since I think that something like that would encourage camping.

It might encourage camping but i think one would camp to one's own detriment. With this system one would want to stay on the move as there would always be cover spots behind you or on your flank for someone to take advantage of unless you are so far to the edge of the map that you are basically out of the fight in which case your enemies can simply run the other way.

what I like most about this is that the fights would be protracted but it's in your best interest to try to end them fast or get out. Otherwise your opponent  would be able to send a distress signal for reinforcements before you get a chance to kill him (of course you could do the same).

It will make PvP more interesting out in the waste. It will encourage dialogue between two stalemated opponents, It will even give blue-suites a bit of a leg up.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: falloutdude on July 12, 2011, 09:53:01 pm
rio is wise man with good ideas +1.
so yes and mcdocter come back.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Michaelh139 on July 12, 2011, 10:43:34 pm
Man I remember suggesting this a few weeks or a month after I first started playing.

And such a topic has been discussed between a few others as well, it's up to the devs at this point.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Sarakin on July 12, 2011, 10:45:00 pm
I doubt that it can be implemented, but I would like to see it ingame, why not.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Bartosz on July 12, 2011, 10:59:00 pm
Quote
And such a topic has been discussed between a few others as well, it's up to the devs at this point.
Yes, but question whether to use skill, or not is still available for discussion.

I doubt that it can be implemented, but I would like to see it ingame, why not.
Well, from what I'm aware it's not that hard to implement.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: jonny rust on July 12, 2011, 11:01:27 pm
Well, from what I'm aware it's not that hard to implement.
I'm suddenly extremely interested in this topic
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Crazy on July 12, 2011, 11:07:51 pm
Well, from what I'm aware it's not that hard to implement.

What? Daaamn, so we totally need a cover system!


But I still think making it skill related is a bad idea. We already have too few skill point, and we would need another skill around 200? Not mentioning it doesn't make much sense for realism, it would be also bad for gameplay. We already have much char related parameters, I don't think we need more. Also, I would give a DR bonus rather than AC bonus, because it would end up causing problem with shooting pople under cover : would be only luck deciding if you hit or not, which is always bad. Also, it would allow to make some boost only to normal/energy DR, while flamer and explosives could be used against covered people.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Michaelh139 on July 12, 2011, 11:26:56 pm
What? Daaamn, so we totally need a cover system!


But I still think making it skill related is a bad idea. We already have too few skill point, and we would need another skill around 200? Not mentioning it doesn't make much sense for realism, it would be also bad for gameplay. We already have much char related parameters, I don't think we need more. Also, I would give a DR bonus rather than AC bonus, because it would end up causing problem with shooting pople under cover : would be only luck deciding if you hit or not, which is always bad. Also, it would allow to make some boost only to normal/energy DR, while flamer and explosives could be used against covered people.

I agree with this.

The from bursts and such considering its not really aimed directly the bullets being powerful enough to penetrate through would be slowed if not put off course considerably causing what bullets that get through to have to deal with the armor as well.

however when it comes to aimshots there should be a skill dependancy only because your obviously not trying to shoot through the cover, your waiting for a chance to shoot the bodypart intended.

Fire based weapons should be able to do normal damage without the DR of cover in the way consider fire is in flamers is napalm, a liquid like fire,would just be sprayed over the cover or into it.   And molotovs is liquid being lit on fire, so even if you hit the cover with the bottle it would splash all over them.

Explosives, is another question, I think they should still get the DR bonus from cover, but should still be blown away like normal, because of the explosion itself and not the shrapnel.  If possible, Dynamite would totally ignore the cover and blow straight through and hit the enemy.

we're not using Electricity based shit so *ignores*.  (well there is militia with yk32 pistol...)  But it's not like electricity would do anything to cover unless used on metallic cover, and that depends on whether not the guy is actually touching it.

Lasers should totally ignore cover unless it is a metallic based, but there should still be very little resistence.

Plasma would just totally melt through the cover not to mention the splash it would cause so "poof".

Melee?  There should be a skill check since it is used mainly to aim but also because your not gonna stab or smash through a big brick to get to them you would just jump through the cover swinging.  (unless you had a super sledge, but dynamic maps is not possible last i heard). 
God imagine you waiting for this guy with a bigass hammer to jump out and burst him and then the crazy fucker just busts through the wall and charges you xD.

So uh, there is the aiming thing that i think should be skill based, but everything else should just deal with the cover depending on the type of ammo and weapon etc.

Did I miss anything btw?
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: jonny rust on July 12, 2011, 11:32:54 pm
What? Daaamn, so we totally need a cover system!


But I still think making it skill related is a bad idea. We already have too few skill point, and we would need another skill around 200? Not mentioning it doesn't make much sense for realism, it would be also bad for gameplay. We already have much char related parameters, I don't think we need more. Also, I would give a DR bonus rather than AC bonus, because it would end up causing problem with shooting pople under cover : would be only luck deciding if you hit or not, which is always bad. Also, it would allow to make some boost only to normal/energy DR, while flamer and explosives could be used against covered people.

I agree with the skill part, but I don't know about only DR being affected by cover. It makes more sense to be missed when behind cover than it does to be hit for no damage, however a combination of misses and reduced (grazing bullets?) damage would make a lot of sense.

As for explosives, cover should still apply to some extent depending on what the cover is, but a smart rocketeer won't just shoot as his target's cover, he would shoot at the ground next to his target splashing him with far more damage than firing a direct shot.

Flamers would have to get so close they might as well just rush past the cover anyway.

I think we need cover to further balance weapon types at the end of the day and for this reason I would still like to see laser and plasma damage being resisted by cover as cover would be an ideal way to withstand a sniper (which might be laser based) or big gunner attack logically.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Rio on July 12, 2011, 11:43:25 pm
I think the main purpose of throwning granades behind obstacle should be to uncovering enemy. Grenades will become more popular, also throwning skill. This give us more tactics in game. Throw grenade, uncover enemy, burst- for example. I expected it can be implement easily but I was afraid of posting it(sneak bonus from barrels and similar to sight, range area).
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: jonny rust on July 12, 2011, 11:48:35 pm
I think the main purpose of throwning granades behind obstacle should be to uncovering enemy. Grenades will become more popular, also throwning skill. This give us more tactics in game. Throw grenade, uncover enemy, burst- for example. I expected it can be implement easily but I was afraid of posting it(sneak bonus from barrels and similar to sight, range area).

sounds like Tactics now, and it should! Tactics had a great combat system, further more it made team strategies very interesting and diverse which I think this will help to do here.

thanks Rio!


Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Rio on July 12, 2011, 11:50:39 pm
Np I love this game too! Btw: Maybe if not skill points that Perks can improve "taking cover".
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Haterade on July 13, 2011, 12:39:49 am
love this idea! what about if you stand really near to wall, about 33% you get "cover"
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Jackall on July 13, 2011, 10:54:07 am
I think the main purpose of throwning granades behind obstacle should be to uncovering enemy. Grenades will become more popular, also throwning skill. This give us more tactics in game. Throw grenade, uncover enemy, burst- for example. I expected it can be implement easily but I was afraid of posting it(sneak bonus from barrels and similar to sight, range area).

A cover system togheter with the Hex-Shooting suggested  a week or so ago. Epic.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Slaughter on July 13, 2011, 11:47:07 pm
There are many good ideas implemented here, and I think that a cover system is a necessity.
Fights are usually too damn short, even firefights between elite soldiers in PA play more like a knife fight in speed and dynamic. For example, if you and a friend have been attacked by some enemies, your only options are flee, fight, die. Cover would add a new option: Delay. Example:

Two dudes (let's call them GROUP A) are attacked by three dudes (GROUP B) somewhere in Reno. The two dudes run behind some cover, and start shooting. The three dudes get some cover too and both sides start shooting. Everyone has plenty of options:
Group A:
- Make a run for it
- Make a fighting retreat using constant cover
- Cripple their legs and run for it
- Cripple their legs and use your superior speed to constantly change cover and flank them
- Use a grenade to knock them away, then attack with all abbadon
- Shot them with lasers to bypass their cover
- Stay inside cover and whip out radio, delay the enemy and call out desperately for help
- Switch to armor-piercing ammo
- Any combination of any action

Group B:
- Use grenades to knockback the covered enemies, then attack with all abadon
- Send a unarmed-melee fighter to go there, knockback them away from cover (most unarmed/melee attacks have a small knockback effect, Sledge and Super Sledge specially) cripple their legs/arms or kill them
- Use lasers or flamers to bypass cover
- Use armor-piecing bullets to ignore DT bonus

I think the main problem of cover is WHAT is going to give cover bonuses. I suggest PE for DR bonus (represented as the character's ability to find the sturdier part of cover, therefore dimishing damage when he gets hit), AG for AC bonus (obvious here) and LK for both.

 A suggestion of mine is to make a perk that makes IN and CH give those bonuses instead, and ONLY acessible for characters with low BASE PE and AG (to represent the "Smart Non-Action Guy" type of characters, think the Medic/Diplomat/crafter). What about something akin to "Smart Coward" as a name?

Another suggestion is to make the bonuses depend on current unused AP. So, in real-time, the guy who's drops into cover then bursts nonstop should be easier to hit and get more damage than the other guy who stays in cover and sometimes takes a potshot at his foe, waits for his AP to regenerate and does so again. This also makes sense for characters who NEED to stay in cover to do something like healing. This would make different playstiles in relation to cover.

Another suggestion is to make Bonus Move give a small cover AC bonus, as to represent the person's increased mobility making it easier and faster for him to shoot and cover.

I agree with the skill part, but I don't know about only DR being affected by cover. It makes more sense to be missed when behind cover than it does to be hit for no damage, however a combination of misses and reduced (grazing bullets?) damage would make a lot of sense.

As for explosives, cover should still apply to some extent depending on what the cover is, but a smart rocketeer won't just shoot as his target's cover, he would shoot at the ground next to his target splashing him with far more damage than firing a direct shot.

Flamers would have to get so close they might as well just rush past the cover anyway.

I think we need cover to further balance weapon types at the end of the day and for this reason I would still like to see laser and plasma damage being resisted by cover as cover would be an ideal way to withstand a sniper (which might be laser based) or big gunner attack logically.

I think both AC and DR bonus are necessary. AC represents the cover protecting you from enemy shots entirely. DR bonus represents the enemy shots losing strength after going though the cover. I like the AC bonus because it makes AC-bonus perks more rewarding. I like the DR bonus because it makes DR-perks more important, and also because it means using armor-piercers against enemies, which I like.

About the flamer: Increase flamer range a bit. Flamer range in reality is much strong than in games. This is a typical case of Videogame Flamethrowners suck.

I think Laser should either ignore cover entirely or at least ignore the DR bonus. A laser is a beam of energy focused in one point. A plasma bolt is a big ball of super-hot ionised gas contained and launched though magnetic processes. Plasma is stronger, but laser' focus in one point should give it a advantage. This is good because lasers are mostly neglected.

I think the main purpose of throwning granades behind obstacle should be to uncovering enemy. Grenades will become more popular, also throwning skill.

Very much this. Grenades should ignore cover bonuses. Combined with the explosive effect and the common explosion knockback, grenades will be the anti-cover. This will finally make them useful in the game. I think throwing spears could ignore cover AC bonus, as a way of making spear throwing more popular.


A cover system togheter with the Hex-Shooting suggested  a week or so ago. Epic.

Also this.

right, after your opponent has wasted his AP on your cover you know that you have time to run to the next bit of cover, perhaps making your way closer to him or closer to your escape.

there would be more time spent waiting for your opponent to make a dumb mistake leaving himself open, as is the case in a real fight.

It might encourage camping but i think one would camp to one's own detriment. With this system one would want to stay on the move as there would always be cover spots behind you or on your flank for someone to take advantage of unless you are so far to the edge of the map that you are basically out of the fight in which case your enemies can simply run the other way.

what I like most about this is that the fights would be protracted but it's in your best interest to try to end them fast or get out. Otherwise your opponent  would be able to send a distress signal for reinforcements before you get a chance to kill him (of course you could do the same).

It will make PvP more interesting out in the waste. It will encourage dialogue between two stalemated opponents, It will even give blue-suites a bit of a leg up.

Agreed entirely.
I like the whole new focus on moving though cover to cover. This will make leg shots more useful, because crippling someone's leg will impair his hability to switch cover. It would also make battles more dynamic.

Only a few places would be suitable for camping. Spending too much time camping will allow the camper's foe to prepare to break his cover. Campers can be flushed out with grenades/melee, attacked with lasers or flamers, flanked or eventually out-camped by some smart-allec who will eventually call his bros to siege him and do anti-camper measures detailed above.



Combining all those suggestions would make the combat much, much better.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: jonny rust on July 14, 2011, 01:16:09 am
Nice post slaughter, and I agree, Lasers should ignore a cover's DR bonus but since the shooter can't actually see his target (or at least the target is now smaller), AC should still be boosted and the same would apply for AP rounds.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: Crazy on July 14, 2011, 01:19:22 am
Nice post slaughter, and I agree, Lasers should ignore a cover's DR bonus but since the shooter can't actually see his target (or at least the target is now smaller), AC should still be boosted and the same would apply for AP rounds.

AP round already have a -DR bonus, while lasers haven't, which justify to give the bonus only to laser as AP rounds penetrations is already implanted.
Title: Re: New skill "taking cover"
Post by: jonny rust on July 14, 2011, 01:24:57 am
AP round already have a -DR bonus, while lasers haven't, which justify to give the bonus only to laser as AP rounds penetrations is already implanted.

that's true, in fact cover would probably lessen the DR bonus AP rounds have just a bit