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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Tin on July 11, 2011, 12:30:35 pm

Title: Steal Animation
Post by: Tin on July 11, 2011, 12:30:35 pm
Should the steal ability have an animation?

If possible, I think that the animation for stealing should be removed and just have the player stand as if doing nothing. This way stealing is then based purely on stats and is more how it should be. Imagine this scenario, 3 players stood together, 1 player successfully steals. With the animation, its obvious who done it. Without, you wouldnt know which player stole your stuff (more realistic, as the steal was successful). Of course, if it fails you still get the "X is trying to rob you!" so you would know.

The whole point of stealing is taking something without the other person knowing?
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Jotisz on July 11, 2011, 01:00:11 pm
As I read before somewhere animation will be changed when 3d is done there will be a totally new steal anim which is different from current use anim.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Tin on July 11, 2011, 01:02:48 pm
3d wont be any time soon though, but switching an animation could be done now?
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Jotisz on July 11, 2011, 01:11:56 pm
Don't think so making a new 2d animation for the existing characters and for all armor would take months.
Each frame would have to be made one by one like when you make new critters from existing ones.
If you check NMA you can see that most of the new characters and animation was made with long hard pixel editing. I don't think anyone would volunteer to make them especially since they would be replaced as soon as 3d is finished.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Tin on July 11, 2011, 01:14:07 pm
Don't think so making a new 2d animation for the existing characters and for all armor would take months.
Each frame would have to be made one by one like when you make new critters from existing ones.
If you check NMA you can see that most of the new characters and animation was made with long hard pixel editing. I don't think anyone would volunteer to make them especially since they would be replaced as soon as 3d is finished.

It wouldn't need that at all, it just needs a copy/paste of the existing standing still sprite
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: LagMaster on July 11, 2011, 01:26:42 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cjFMBez3CE
This animation is good?
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Tin on July 11, 2011, 01:29:54 pm
 ;D

We just need no animation so you dont know its happened unless the skill fails (still dont need an animation on fail, you get the prompt)
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Jotisz on July 11, 2011, 01:34:02 pm
Sorry I just miss understand you yep I'm sure that could be made dunno if it will be though.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: BadBoy. on July 11, 2011, 03:03:46 pm
I disagree. I think changing the animation to different one, so that everyone know when soemone is stealing, not using f.e. science, is a good idea.
You're staning in NCR and a stealer stands in front of you. He tries to take your stuff. You didn't notice, cuz his skill i 3000... Sure.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Tin on July 11, 2011, 03:57:38 pm
I disagree. I think changing the animation to different one, so that everyone know when soemone is stealing, not using f.e. science, is a good idea.
You're staning in NCR and a stealer stands in front of you. He tries to take your stuff. You didn't notice, cuz his skill i 3000... Sure.

Yeah exactly, his skills are high, you shouldn't be able to notice. Thats what the skill check is for and is the whole point of the skill.

At the moment if your in a place where there is no guards, with an animation everyone can see what your doing so even if your successful people will shoot you, which totally gets rid of the point of the skill check. As in real life pickpockets, you should only notice if someone either messes up and gives it away or if you check your pockets and notice something isn't there.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: avv on July 11, 2011, 04:12:41 pm
If higher skill equals higher success, it encourages alts. Steal has no combat purpose so soloists would suffer.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Sarakin on July 11, 2011, 04:35:30 pm
It would be good if there was a defense mechanism against stealing.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: HertogJan on July 11, 2011, 04:42:15 pm
There is. Walk away. One hex between a thief and you is enough.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Tin on July 11, 2011, 04:45:25 pm
If higher skill equals higher success, it encourages alts. Steal has no combat purpose so soloists would suffer.

That doesnt really hold up, because the way the game is with skills it already opens itself to alts for combat, barter etc. Also,in the second part, crafting has no combat purpose so soloists would suffer..... (I know it creates items but steal also acquires items, just in a different way)

It would be good if there was a defense mechanism against stealing.

Defense mechanism is a high perception, keeping your valuable stuff in your hands so they can't be stolen, and keeping away from would be thieves. Just like real life!


From whats been said here and in chat, I think people are thinking along the lines of "I don't want to be stolen from" rather than what would actually fits the skill. Some people dont want to be shot but guns skills say otherwise!
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: ASDu on July 12, 2011, 07:08:56 am
i think when u trying to rob u shouldn't animate like it's now happening, but u should be not in front of that char and also looking right to the char. So players should just carefully go away from players looking on them while standing near they.
sorry for my english.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Sarakin on July 12, 2011, 12:44:10 pm
There is. Walk away. One hex between a thief and you is enough.
I wouldnt call that a mechanism, its more of an annoyance. (Try moving when trading)
Defense mechanism is a high perception, keeping your valuable stuff in your hands so they can't be stolen, and keeping away from would be thieves. Just like real life!
High perception of a player ? Dont make me laugh. Keeping stuff in hands is pretty futile if you got more stuff with you.
This is not real life, Im not harassed by every bluesuit when I go shopping.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Tin on July 12, 2011, 03:35:12 pm
I wouldnt call that a mechanism, its more of an annoyance. (Try moving when trading)High perception of a player ? Dont make me laugh. Keeping stuff in hands is pretty futile if you got more stuff with you.
This is not real life, Im not harassed by every bluesuit when I go shopping.

But if it was a post apocalyptic world where you needed to survive it would be different from shopping in a city centre ;)

If you dont want to lose stuff dont carry valuable stuff in places where thieves are around.

Again, this is more "I dont want my stuff stolen" rather than what fits the skill
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Chrupek on July 12, 2011, 03:50:38 pm
There is no player skill in stealing. When thief is in any town, everybody knows exactly what he want to do. So its obviously abusing weak mechanism of guard cities.
After war and so on blablabla... if there will be guards, they will probably just shoot on sight bluesuits messing around. In fonline, they cant do anything, so thats the real problem.
After three failures while stealing, player is permanently tagged on red in that town, and if he will walk to another player for 1 hex, he will be terminated. I think that will work in real life, dont u think?
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Tin on July 12, 2011, 04:00:54 pm
There is no player skill in stealing. When thief is in any town, everybody knows exactly what he want to do. So its obviously abusing weak mechanism of guard cities.
After war and so on blablabla... if there will be guards, they will probably just shoot on sight bluesuits messing around. In fonline, they cant do anything, so thats the real problem.
After three failures while stealing, player is permanently tagged on red in that town, and if he will walk to another player for 1 hex, he will be terminated. I think that will work in real life, dont u think?

There is no player skill in shooting, bartering, or anything else. Its done based on the % of the character. You could say "but yeah you need tactics when fighting" etc, but in the same way you need deception when stealing. Thats why there should be no animation, you can deceive someone if they see the animation even if you succeed!

As for the rest, thats more about the mechanics of steal, which is a different conversation and not involved with the discussion of the actual animation  :)
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: jonny rust on July 12, 2011, 05:34:12 pm
I have never played as a thief and they annoy the shit out of me but I still think this is a more than valid suggestion as it is logical.

My two cents are;

A, if you fail to steal there should be an animation, perhaps only visible to the player who caught you. it makes sense that if you are caught stealing it is because the intended victim saw you do it, or noticed in some way and since I cannot feel what my character feels it only feels like i caught you if I see that act.

B, only great thieves are able to stand right in front of you while slipping off your wrist watch, so with less than say 200% steal it should be almost impossible to steal without being behind or at least next to your victim, but not directly in front of.

however I also think that at 200% the thief skill is just a bit unbalanced, I can have 10 perception and never catch these guys (which is fine, a good thief is a good thief) but I would also suggest pooled perception. When someone has you tagged they are essentially watching your back, and if in range, their perception should really make an added role when you are being thieved. This could at least create a protective "buddy system" for players where "I will watch your back if you watch mine". It makes just as much sense that If I am watching the guy behind my friend steal from him, I should be able to catch the thief red handed just as much as my friend should be oblivious to what is going on.... right?
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Phallus Erectus on July 15, 2011, 04:36:54 am
The necessary outcome of stealing from someone is that they do not know that you stole from them. If an animation plays when using the thief skill, the idea that you "stole" anything goes out the window, because it is clear that you were the one to steal from someone. Come on ruskie devs, get to work on fixing this.

A, if you fail to steal there should be an animation, perhaps only visible to the player who caught you. it makes sense that if you are caught stealing it is because the intended victim saw you do it, or noticed in some way and since I cannot feel what my character feels it only feels like i caught you if I see that act.

I agree, the text box is not always preferred to update the character on what is happening as there may be a high volume of chatting going on.

B, only great thieves are able to stand right in front of you while slipping off your wrist watch, so with less than say 200% steal it should be almost impossible to steal without being behind or at least next to your victim, but not directly in front of.

I thought that a thief gets a penalty to stealing when standing in front of the player. The pickpocket perk should remedy this for a thief, but I will not waste one of my perk choices with one that does nothing.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Boon Lived on July 15, 2011, 04:58:12 am
I say we keep the stealing animation, as some people trade in towns, it would be easy to steal from them, and they wouldn't know.
You could even have a bomber doing this, and nobody would have a clue.

Lets not give theives more power, shall we?
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Phallus Erectus on July 15, 2011, 06:17:26 am
Do I really need to mention that when the thief fails, you'll know who tried to steal from you? Honestly, it doesn't help you to know who has stolen from you. They could turn right around and steal from you again and they might be successful again. Still, nothing you can do, so it would be best to lighten the mental trauma of being aware of your loss at the hands of someone who should rightfully have passed by unnoticed. As for bombers, it would be fairly obvious who-dun-it when the guards shoot the guy for slipping up the placement.

It seems many of you think getting rid of the animation gives more power to the thief, but how? When the thief fails, they are known to steal, so we are back where we started with known random assholes trying to filch everyones' goods.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Reginmund on July 15, 2011, 07:05:46 am
The main problem is more likely the player than this animation/no animation argument.  You will typically see a thief harassing somebody with the animation so even with out it you will just see some random bluesuit continuously running up next to somebody.

Failed steal?
-go steal off npcs in unguarded place to level up for more skillpoints to dump into steal.

Got stolen from?
-did you walk away? no? why didnt you?
-is your perception high? no? deal with it or make alt with 10 pe. perception is high? well sucks to be you.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Johnnybravo on July 15, 2011, 02:05:01 pm
Quote
, I can have 10 perception and never catch these guys (which is fine, a good thief is a good thief)
Yeah obviously guy with perfect perception will not notice somebody stealing metal armor from his inventory...

PvP stealing has been trollfest ever since it has been implemented.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Perteks on July 15, 2011, 03:41:11 pm
I can say only one
(https://i.imgur.com/WCjXJ.jpg)
But no animation will be nice :D
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: jonny rust on July 15, 2011, 07:41:25 pm
I can say only one But no animation will be nice :D

best point so far, so how about this as a compromise;

we get rid of the animation, but, we change the weight vs. Chance to steal ratio.

linear increase in weight = exponential decrease in chance to steal successfully.

something needs to be done about that anyway.

Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: DocAN. on July 15, 2011, 07:53:53 pm
we should back to thief-flag system +
Pickpocket 12 Ag 8, 125% Steal Halve size and facing modifiers when stealing 1
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Johnnybravo on July 15, 2011, 11:00:18 pm
Stealing should be hard and unreliable enough so that you wouldn't care to try steal every piece of junk just because you can.
If you try to take a risk for chips or maybe a good handgun (I'd guess one can not just steal big guns and armors, and who the hell carry those in inventories anyway) then go and take your chances.

Dynamite planting is a thing we would've better not have at all, as one would hardly give one or two reasons for it not related to trolling people.

Existense of animation is just question of paranoia. Should there be no animations and plethora of thieves, result is different, than having animation, and only several thieves who mastered their trade.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: jonny rust on July 16, 2011, 12:18:16 am
the suggestion is good because it makes sense.

If the thief isn't caught, then nobody saw him, then there should be no visible sign of the theft.

but It doesn't actually mean that theft will be easier;

If someone gets into your personal space then move (besides this level of paranoia could save you not only from getting thieved but also from getting bursted) there is no waiting for a visible sign that your getting thieved, you move to eliminate the possibility.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Tin on July 16, 2011, 02:08:44 am
Just to keep people on topic, the suggestion is regarding the actual point of having an animation of stealing, not the actual mechanics of the steal skill (beyond the animation). All of that is a totally different argument  :)
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: SBBM on July 16, 2011, 02:57:40 am
Why not remove the animation for the initial "inventory-check", but leave it for the actual stealing. I mean, why are you fondling someone to check their inventory, you aren't taking anything at that stage in the process.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Reginmund on July 16, 2011, 06:19:53 am
The main problem with being a thief on this game is you are quit noticable with or without the animation because you stand out in such a small crowd and bluesuit/f6 shows you are another player getting a bit to friendly right next to somebody.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Tin on July 16, 2011, 10:24:57 am
Why not remove the animation for the initial "inventory-check", but leave it for the actual stealing. I mean, why are you fondling someone to check their inventory, you aren't taking anything at that stage in the process.

Yeah, but why show it for the steal? The whole point of a pickpocket is stealing without being noticed, if you have an animation then even if your successful then your noticed. You might get the item but you'll get a bullet in your head for the trouble.

The main problem with being a thief on this game is you are quit noticable with or without the animation because you stand out in such a small crowd and bluesuit/f6 shows you are another player getting a bit to friendly right next to somebody.

I think thats how having no animation would work best. Would no longer be run up, steal, run away. You could do stuff like chat to the person to distract them, walk past them slowly and steal etc
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Josh on July 18, 2011, 03:33:53 am
That doesnt really hold up, because the way the game is with skills it already opens itself to alts for combat, barter etc. Also,in the second part, crafting has no combat purpose so soloists would suffer..... (I know it creates items but steal also acquires items, just in a different way)
From whats been said here and in chat, I think people are thinking along the lines of "I don't want to be stolen from" rather than what would actually fits the skill. Some people dont want to be shot but guns skills say otherwise!
1. Please don't compare the users of the useful skill of crafting equipment to the human garbage that steals their equipment. Thank You.
2. Combat is an integral part of the game, removing it would mean the nullifying of the majority of the gameplay. Getting stuff with no real effort on your part is not, and (imho) removing it would greatly improve gameplay as you wouldn't have to watch out for thieves all the time when crafting or bartering. If you can think of a reason it should stay other than "its more realistic" than please feel free to share it with the rest of us.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: jonny rust on July 18, 2011, 03:51:00 am
1. Please don't compare the users of the useful skill of crafting equipment to the human garbage that steals their equipment. Thank You.
2. Combat is an integral part of the game, removing it would mean the nullifying of the majority of the gameplay. Getting stuff with no real effort on your part is not, and (imho) removing it would greatly improve gameplay as you wouldn't have to watch out for thieves all the time when crafting or bartering. If you can think of a reason it should stay other than "its more realistic" than please feel free to share it with the rest of us.

I don't like getting thieved anymore than the next guy but try to remember that "human garbage" is also an integral part of the fallout world. There is no place in the wasteland that is sacred and the sooner you develop a healthy sense of paranoia the better, and thats really the way it should be. I have dealt with thieves for a long time and weather or not the animation is there really won't make their job that much easier. If someone gets in your face you should move for reasons beyond just the risk of getting thieved anyway. Having said that, I am all for this suggestion from a purely logical standpoint, thats all I really need.

At the end of the day everyone playing this game is gambling, thats what really makes it fun imo. Everything you do has a certain amount of risk attached to it, and that risk keeps you on your feet and makes you a stronger player. So when you get annoyed at thieves remember that they are low risk players who don't want to put any chips on the table which generally means low gain for them in more ways than one.

However they are necessary. What is not necessary is the harassment they sometimes dish out, but that goes for any character class.

Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Josh on July 18, 2011, 04:08:41 am
<Insert "its not practical to move at all times" Counter>
What is not necessary is the harassment they sometimes dish out
I agree that this is the main problem. Perhaps a distinct animation and increased cooldown would be the best idea.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: spears on July 18, 2011, 04:34:24 am
Just to keep people on topic, the suggestion is regarding the actual point of having an animation of stealing, not the actual mechanics of the steal skill (beyond the animation). All of that is a totally different argument  :)
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: jonny rust on July 18, 2011, 05:08:18 am
you can't suggest something like this and expect people not to debate weather or not it would effect the mechanics.

right now people respond to the animation, that makes it part of the mechanism.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: ASDu on July 18, 2011, 08:32:39 am
i suggest kill animation but limit stealing making it available only from behind.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: HertogJan on July 18, 2011, 12:25:52 pm
2. Combat is an integral part of the game, removing it would mean the nullifying of the majority of the gameplay. Getting stuff with no real effort on your part is not, and (imho) removing it would greatly improve gameplay as you wouldn't have to watch out for thieves all the time when crafting or bartering. If you can think of a reason it should stay other than "its more realistic" than please feel free to share it with the rest of us.

Getting stuff without effort is possible without stealing too. So we shoudl remove PvP too than. It's rather easy to burst someone in a guarded town and have a friend take the loot. It's even easier in unguarded towns and mines. Not to mention setting traps or doing a distress call when entering someone's encounter.

What is not necessary is the harassment they sometimes dish out, but that goes for any character class.

Exactly. This weekend I got harassed by someone who refused to wait till I finished trading. He used the animation on me to get me to run. Unfortunately for him I was trading with my thief alt, so I was kind enough to return the favor ...

<Insert "its not practical to move at all times" Counter>I agree that this is the main problem. Perhaps a distinct animation and increased cooldown would be the best idea.

Stealing currently has a 30 seconds timer which resets with every item taken from someone's inventory. Having a unique animation only available once every 30 seconds will remove most of the grieving problem there is now.
If people can't grief with the animation, they'll find other ways to grief. Like pushing people out of the trader's range.

i suggest kill animation but limit stealing making it available only from behind.

That's rather ridiculous. It would make the pickpocket perk less interesting and it makes no sense. Why couldn't I steal from the side?
This will result in people having a friend standing behind them, a thief pushing the trading character away and standing behind him to steal. All in all not a change.


As I hardly visit NCR and when I do it's not for trading purposes, I don't understand much of the thieving problem.
I haven't seen any thieves in the Boneyard and hardly see them in SF, the Hub, Junktown or VC. In my experience you're more likely to get shot for loot in SF or VC courtyard than be stolen from those places.

Stealing is part of the game, whether people like it or not. In this game you need to be paranoid and trust no one. Which means being careful everywhere all the time. There's no need to to be careful or not to pay attention when trading.
However that doesn't justify the amount of people (thieves and other players alike) who use the animation to grief.
Change the animation and the amount of grieving will seriously reduce. Removing the animation won't have that effect as it will just mean people will walk up to others and stand next to damn. The target walks a way, the griever follows.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: jonny rust on July 18, 2011, 04:20:33 pm
Which is why I don't believe that this animation, or lack of, will effect the amount of grief that thieving, or pretending to thieve, can already inflict.

Dealing with that kind of harassment really is a completely different topic.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: Slaver Snipe on July 19, 2011, 02:58:25 am
I'm fine with it being removed IF you have a chance to detect when someone is just looking at your inventory and that makes them unprotected. I would say the % chance should be partially based on perception obviously. Should also help with people just trolling away by standing next to you without you have to check your inventory constantly to see if things have gone missing. I know that if someone was going through my shit in a world like Fonline I would probably burst them and it should be represented.
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: ASDu on July 19, 2011, 04:28:23 am
That's rather ridiculous. It would make the pickpocket perk less interesting and it makes no sense. Why couldn't I steal from the side?
This will result in people having a friend standing behind them, a thief pushing the trading character away and standing behind him to steal. All in all not a change.
As alternative there could be basic penalty(BP) like in front - 150%, front sides - 100%, back sides - 50%, back - 0%
and stealing should count: steal-BP*(PE of target)/10
or (i like it more): steal*(your AG)/10+50*(your LU-target LU)/10-BP*(PE of target)/10

Then kill animation on attempts and show animation only when fails.

Ofcourse it's just an idea, so any changes to this idea r welcomed
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: jonny rust on July 19, 2011, 04:30:14 am
I'm fine with it being removed IF you have a chance to detect when someone is just looking at your inventory and that makes them unprotected. I would say the % chance should be partially based on perception obviously. Should also help with people just trolling away by standing next to you without you have to check your inventory constantly to see if things have gone missing. I know that if someone was going through my shit in a world like Fonline I would probably burst them and it should be represented.

great idea! thieves generate lots of paranoia, make that process a risk for them!
Title: Re: Steal Animation
Post by: jonny rust on July 19, 2011, 04:34:08 am
As alternative there could be basic penalty(BP) like in front - 150%, front sides - 100%, back sides - 50%, back - 0%
and stealing should count: steal-BP*(PE of target)/10

the decreases might be a little to linear, also there already is a penalty from the back but I don't know it's mechanics.