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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Doctor Eex on February 01, 2011, 03:24:30 pm
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Suggestion
Buff up unarmed and melee builds in TB by giving them FREE BONUS MOVE perk.
Buff up unarmed and melee builds in RT by giving them MASTER OF DODGING perk.
What is the hell is MASTER OF DODGING?
MASTER OF DODGING x1 - max chance to hit you -85%
MASTER OF DODGING x2 - max chance to hit you -75%
MASTER OF DODGING x3 - max chance to hit you -65%
Conditions
15 lvl + 150 unarmed (melee) ew sg bg <80 - 1st FREE BONUS MOVE and (or?) MASTER OF DODGING
18 lvl + 180 unarmed (melee) ew sg bg <80- 2nd FREE BONUS MOVE and (or?) MASTER OF DODGING
21 lvl + 200 unarmed (melee) ew sg bg <80- 3rd FREE BONUS MOVE and (or?) MASTER OF DODGING
(need balancing)
Why to give them it?
Because now any shooter can just run away from melee. But melee cannot run from shooter in most cases.
In RT melee vs avenger :) funny story, yeah?
With this suggestion implemented they'll have some chances.
I never played this class because wasteland is too harsh for them. And I don't even know what skill they must have to be effective. So let's discuss
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Of course the big negative of this idea is the fact that a melee build can run away with 6 free movement aps?
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Runaway from whom?
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Anyone in TB? Sniper shooting at you, a turn or two later and your to far away for it to matter, also there is the fact that they will be able to exp off of critters even easier.
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Anyone in TB? Sniper shooting at you, a turn or two later and your to far away for it to matter, also there is the fact that they will be able to exp off of critters even easier.
Oh noes... those overpowered HtH powerbuilds!
Actually only thing that is wrong with this suggestions is to see 200%bg 200%HtH character with 12ap + 6 move points. Someone should count it out with 10Int and then less and less then see how that would work.
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On condition
15 lvl + 150 unarmed - 1st ew sg bg <80
18 lvl + 180 unarmed - 2nd ew sg bg <80
21 lvl + 200 unarmed - 3rd ew sg bg <80
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i agree unarmed and melee build are to over powered. in tb they should get what you suggested in rt maybe higher dam resistence or big ac bonus. :)
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On condition
15 lvl + 150 unarmed - 1st ew sg bg <80
18 lvl + 180 unarmed - 2nd ew sg bg <80
21 lvl + 200 unarmed - 3rd ew sg bg <80
Now it looks just perfect!
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Anyone in TB? Sniper shooting at you, a turn or two later and your to far away for it to matter, also there is the fact that they will be able to exp off of critters even easier.
Melee / unarmed are in theory in better shape (a theory for those are shit their pants when something isn't "RP accurate" / "realistic")
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Updated first post, let's discuss.
Anyone in TB? Sniper shooting at you, a turn or two later and your to far away for it to matter, also there is the fact that they will be able to exp off of critters even easier.
OMG, you're afraid you will not be able shoot some bluesuit to death?
Exping unarmed is easy enough now anyway.
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Yup i think that Unarmed and Melee need something changes, because weapon holders can still beat up those easily without problems (almost)
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big no to the whole idea! Just think about it unarmed and melee have to be much worst than any distance weapon - its just logical! Technology gives u big advantage and thats how its should remain. Compare guy with minigun and guy with bear hands - who do u think should win ? - there is no question about it. Keep it real guys.
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big no to the whole idea! Just think about it unarmed and melee have to be much worst than any distance weapon - its just logical! Technology gives u big advantage and thats how its should remain. Compare guy with minigun and guy with bear hands - who do u think should win ? - there is no question about it. Keep it real guys.
It's a game. We are talking about balancing some type of builds. Of course guy with pistol still should be better then guy with bare hands but not against power fist user.
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big no to the whole idea! Just think about it unarmed and melee have to be much worst than any distance weapon - its just logical! Technology gives u big advantage and thats how its should remain. Compare guy with minigun and guy with bear hands - who do u think should win ? - there is no question about it. Keep it real guys.
First of all in REAL nobody can hold a minigun. It's mounted on vehicles.
Second, imagine such Arni Schwartznegger against bruce lee or jacky chan. In close combat arni has not much chance. He simply couldnot turn barrels in right direction. He has a chance something like max chance to hit you -65%
Again, compare the running speed and movement capability
And still after implementing suggestion unarmed or melee will not be imba.
So, balance is at the right place, IN REAL explanation is valid.
Why don't give unarmed chance in PVP and PVE?
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Yea melee and unarmed need some changes but let's be honest here, you're never supposed to bring a knife to a gun fight... I think that 'rule' pretty much explains why we use guns in the wasteland and not so much hand-to-hand combat.
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Melee, shotguns, unarmed are situational weapons/combat style. Of course they shouldn't be better than or equal to a minigun or a sniper rifle, but they should WORK to some extent if thats all ya got. You should at least get the chance to utilize it.
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big no to the whole idea! Just think about it unarmed and melee have to be much worst than any distance weapon - its just logical! Technology gives u big advantage and thats how its should remain. Compare guy with minigun and guy with bear hands - who do u think should win ? - there is no question about it. Keep it real guys.
guys like you with the whole "realism!!" idea seem to make some really bad points
Just think about it, people in the game can take 40 bullets like it's no big deal
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Melee, shotguns, unarmed are situational weapons/combat style. Of course they shouldn't be better than or equal to a minigun or a sniper rifle, but they should WORK to some extent if thats all ya got. You should at least get the chance to utilize it.
how situational are those weapon if you never use them? hey here is idea let's remove them. No more hth 'cus its useless, no more melee 'cus it's uneffective etc.
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how situational are those weapon if you never use them? hey here is idea let's remove them. No more hth 'cus its useless, no more melee 'cus it's uneffective etc.
No, Two reasons...
1. cops use shotguns because they often go through corridors and can make quick work of a target who jumps in your way to shoot because he doesn't have to aim, just shoot in that direction. (Situation that happens ALOT in fonline, we just need to utilize it, like making each hex of distance affect damage output/overall burst accuracy) Very similar to melee/unarmed, but no cop or swat uses this unless he loses his gun or the enemy is simply too close.
2. Unarmed and melee are situational because thats when you don't have a gun, in fonline, chances are you got your arm fucked up by a sniper and can't doc it, so you have two choices if you plan on still fighting, if they're available, grab a melee or start beatin his ass if you can get close enough. (We need more skillpoints btw; but its not like there can't be builds specialized that wouldn't be effective in these situations, kinda like spec op troops on stand-by behind, but these things need a boosting, such as auto run all the way to hit, damage upgrades, and more ways to defend against damage/aims crits.
And, oh, what do you know, number 2 is being developed right now... now we just need to work on number 1
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No, Two reasons...
1. cops use shotguns because they often go through corridors and can make quick work of a target who jumps in your way to shoot because he doesn't have to aim, just shoot in that direction. (Situation that happens ALOT in fonline, we just need to utilize it, like making each hex of distance affect damage output/overall burst accuracy) Very similar to melee/unarmed, but no cop or swat uses this unless he loses his gun or the enemy is simply too close.
2. Unarmed and melee are situational because thats when you don't have a gun, in fonline, chances are you got your arm fucked up by a sniper and can't doc it, so you have two choices if you plan on still fighting, if they're available, grab a melee or start beatin his ass if you can get close enough. (We need more skillpoints btw; but its not like there can't be builds specialized that wouldn't be effective in these situations, kinda like spec op troops on stand-by behind, but these things need a boosting, such as auto run all the way to hit, damage upgrades, and more ways to defend against damage/aims crits.
And, oh, what do you know, number 2 is being developed right now... now we just need to work on number 1
I agree.
...but :>
Number 2 is being developed right now so we gone see how it will work out. From what I heard it was supposed to be balance between crafting and fighting to make every character kind of hybrid. I don't know how would work with two different combat styles. Yeah we will just see and then discuss it over.
Number 1 would be just beautiful. I still can't understand how minigun can be most effective on 1hex. There actually should'nt be any way to use it on 1hex... following this thought yes it is really good suggestion. Fighting should be based on this.
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Melee and unarmed would be fine if silent death perk would work.
It would be nice for pvp, even tc if a player could sneak in and kill a lone enemy. But in the open a hth fighter should loose to any gunner.
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Melee and unarmed would be fine if silent death perk would work.
It would be nice for pvp, even tc if a player could sneak in and kill a lone enemy. But in the open a hth fighter should loose to any gunner.
I agree, the power of unarmed should lie in stealth but with current line of sight it's going to be problematic.
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No, Two reasons...
1. cops use shotguns because they often go through corridors and can make quick work of a target who jumps in your way to shoot because he doesn't have to aim, just shoot in that direction. (Situation that happens ALOT in fonline, we just need to utilize it, like making each hex of distance affect damage output/overall burst accuracy) Very similar to melee/unarmed, but no cop or swat uses this unless he loses his gun or the enemy is simply too close.
2. Unarmed and melee are situational because thats when you don't have a gun, in fonline, chances are you got your arm fucked up by a sniper and can't doc it, so you have two choices if you plan on still fighting, if they're available, grab a melee or start beatin his ass if you can get close enough. (We need more skillpoints btw; but its not like there can't be builds specialized that wouldn't be effective in these situations, kinda like spec op troops on stand-by behind, but these things need a boosting, such as auto run all the way to hit, damage upgrades, and more ways to defend against damage/aims crits.
And, oh, what do you know, number 2 is being developed right now... now we just need to work on number 1
Melee is used when you have to reload your gun, but your enemy is near, so instead of removing clip from your rifle, getting another clip from your belt and then put it in your rifle and reload, it's easier to get a knife and jump on your enemy, because you can't wear much weapons with you really, but reloading in Fallout and FOnline plays minor role and much faster than shooting, also it's easier to take another gun if it's neccessary than a knife. Having only melee will never be a good idea, even in close quarters there're many firearms that are better than melee, so it should be as 2nd combat skill, but again, it's better to reload because it's fast here, or carry other gun.
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Who those who don't get it - THE WHOLE IDEA has nothing to do so-called "REALIZM"
Because F universe has nothing to do with it.
You play a bluesuit, who stands and looks epic.
Let us remember Chuck Norris for example. He can kill a mini-gunner.
Unarmed and melee should act as extremely deadly masters of fight like in the movies.
Imagine unarmed with 65% max chance hit running towards to minigunner. Miniguner burst, and unarmed has 35% chance to remain intact. Why? Because he's perfectly mastered to control his body, he makes somersaults and other evasive maneuvres. Yes we don't have such animation, but still can imagine.
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Imagine unarmed with 65% max chance hit running towards to minigunner. Miniguner burst, and unarmed has 35% chance to remain intact. Why? Because he's perfectly mastered to control his body, he makes somersaults and other evasive maneuvres. Yes we don't have such animation, but still can imagine.
That would ruin pvp for life. Ninjas doing roundhouse kicks and phazing in and out like in DragonballZ would be awful immersion breaker for wasteland themed game. Why you could dodge bullets in Fallout 2? Because you played as the Chosen One who was pretty badass in every way. In fonline we play as regular wastelanders.
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That would ruin pvp for life. Ninjas doing roundhouse kicks and phazing in and out like in DragonballZ would be awful immersion breaker for wasteland themed game. Why you could dodge bullets in Fallout 2? Because you played as the Chosen One who was pretty badass in every way. In fonline we play as regular wastelanders.
DragonballZ
- wtf is that.
35% is only 30% more than 5%. Once again, I dont see much tragedy if minigunner missed the bluesuit. Next burst can be last anyway, as unarmed will be at point blank.
O'k may be we need to balance the figures here.
Once again, we have 6 battle skills.
1 skill offers 3 char classes - bursters, snipers, pistol criplers (and exotic one - fastshot TB)
2 skill gives BG bursters and Bazookers.
3 skill gives laser pistol cripplers, laser snipers and plasma assaulters.
4 skill gives backup weapon for BG
5,6 skill ARE USELESS except RP purpose.
Why don't add some versatility in chars?
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Why don't add some versatility in chars?
Sure but a guy who relies on his passive defensive attributes and can rush enemies head first doesn't sound very interesting build to play with or against. Doesn't require much strategy. Shooting least requires at least some strategy like using cover when regening aps, but a melee dude just wants to get close.
"I shoot him, he doesn't die and gets near me so I die"
That's the worst way melee build can end up.
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Are you blind or something? 65% chance to hit means 2 of 3 burst will reach you. You definitely use some corners and covers.
That's the worst way melee build can end up.
NOW melee is worst way. Because it useless both in TB and RT. I won close combats vs melee in small brahmin pen. I was with 14 pistol aiming eyes (and it was BEFORE autoaim and even BEFORE Bantz's scope). Poor melee guy could not even touch me!
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Are you blind or something? 65% chance to hit means 2 of 3 burst will reach you. You definitely use some corners and covers.
All the same, the point was that a build dedicated only in getting close is pretty awful class to play, especially with current mechanics like 360 field of view, unmodified running speed and instant acceleration to max running speed.
NOW melee is worst way.
Maybe for melee fighters. By worst way to implement I meant that they would cause undeserved troubble for others, like thieves are doing right now.
Because it useless both in TB and RT. I won close combats vs melee in small brahmin pen. I was with 14 pistol aiming eyes (and it was BEFORE autoaim and even BEFORE Bantz's scope). Poor melee guy could not even touch me!
Like I said, pure melee build would be rather unwastelandish, that's just an opinion. Having pure close range fighters working in par with gunmen would break the immersion of post apocalyptic gunfights.
In fonline fists can only beat gun if they get massive support in form of passive bonuses that have nothing to do with your gaming skill. Want to dodge bullets? Well play good enough and dodge them with your micro. Too bad the game doesn't encourage micromanagement enough. Adding more passive build-related bonuses is not the way to go, rewarding invidual player's options to invest his skill should be the way to go.
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In fonline fists can only beat gun if they get massive support in form of passive bonuses that have nothing to do with your gaming skill. Want to dodge bullets? Well play good enough and dodge them with your micro. Too bad the game doesn't encourage micromanagement enough. Adding more passive build-related bonuses is not the way to go, rewarding invidual player's options to invest his skill should be the way to go.
You know zero about what is RPG. The whole Fallout 1,2, Online whatever idea - your success or lose is determined by your stats skills and perks.
Fallout has Dodger perk, remeber? And armor class? And chance to hit.
You need to implement you micromanagement skills - go play Stracraft. If you want to implement your fast clicking skills - Diablo
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You know zero about what is RPG. The whole Fallout 1,2, Online whatever idea - your success or lose is determined by your stats skills and perks.
Maybe versus npc. But even in fallout 2 your personal skills and knowledge about the game was helpful. Just go straight to navarro and receive APA, you can't stop players from using their creativity.
If you want pure rpg, then shouldn't speech 300 builds be able to talk you to suicide? Or force you to join him and do whatever he wants? He has high speech so he convinces your char. That's rpg.
Fallout has Dodger perk, remeber? And armor class? And chance to hit.
In my opinion it would be better if players could perform actions ingame to reduce enemy's chance to hit, like taking cover behind objects. Instead of just choosing some perks and counting on them.
You need to implement you micromanagement skills - go play Stracraft. If you want to implement your fast clicking skills - Diablo
Fast clicking already gives massive advantage. Maybe you should suggest removing it. In addition taking cover behind walls and recoving aps is unfair too because it's micro. Remove it aswell. In fact we should just throw a dice and compare our stats and equipment in autocombat mode to see who wins.
When players compete, the winner must be the most skilled. It cannot be balanced otherwise. Most skilled will find the strings that lead to victory anyway. Currently the skill required is rather indefinite. It has to do with making the best build, finding enough free time to grind, finding a good gang and so on. You can't somehow remove remove the effect of player's creativity from multiplayer game.
When you fight against npcs, the winner can be declared by rpg rules. That's because npcs are slaves to their script and cannot adapt as players do.
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It's not really about making unarmed/melee as strong as other guns, but to make it at least playable to some extent
Someone said before "hth / melee is when you don't have any weapons, so you're forced to use it" right, let's completely ignore power fists, cattle prod, ripper, etc.
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It's not really about making unarmed/melee as strong as other guns, but to make it at least playable to some extent
Someone said before "hth / melee is when you don't have any weapons, so you're forced to use it" right, let's completely ignore power fists, cattle prod, ripper, etc.
But in modern era, it works just like that. People prefer to use ranged weapons over melee, because you can maintain safe distance. Furthermore, ranged weapons are more lethal. Melee weapons and unarmed just cant compete with ranged weapons in any way, maybe when is sneaked. As it was stated, it should be weapon of last resort. My only solution is to promote unarmed/melee in PvE or in various tournaments/events.
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Don't need to buff melee, why? Here's why: Never bring a knife to a gun fight.
Master dodger is just stupid, we don't need it. What we need is a perk for pure melee builds that allows them more hp (possibly up to 270-280, something higher than 250). Make melee builds into tanking builds :D
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But in modern era, it works just like that. People prefer to use ranged weapons over melee, because you can maintain safe distance. Furthermore, ranged weapons are more lethal. Melee weapons and unarmed just cant compete with ranged weapons in any way, maybe when is sneaked. As it was stated, it should be weapon of last resort. My only solution is to promote unarmed/melee in PvE or in various tournaments/events.
Unarmed & melee could be someone's profesion like any crafting ability is. They would then participate in competitions where only melee is allowed and gain caps by winning. Boxing anyone?
Melee just can't work until there is some sort of penalty to shooting an enemy from point blank with a gun like minigun. Sneaking can't work either until turning is penaltized and field of view reduced from sides and rear. Otherwise it's just gonna end like this: sneak behind burster, he notices you from 3 hex, turns instantly and puts a burst in you with max damage. Same goes with eyeshot snipers. Instant 180 degree turnaround followed by knockout eyeshot with 3x bypass dmg.
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Master dodger is just stupid, we don't need it. What we need is a perk for pure melee builds that allows them more hp (possibly up to 270-280, something higher than 250). Make melee builds into tanking builds
Why it is stupid?
And why "we don't need we don't need" You don't need may be.
Boosting hp won't do ANYTHING.
promote unarmed/melee in PvE or in various tournaments/events.
I'm not sure it is nice - to have a char useless all the time, except 1-2 events per era or punching brahmins.
O'k some of you people still want to pwn anything that moves with miniguns, I got it. And avv, master of micromanagement and shit, I got your point. But when somebody says - don't bring a knife to gunfights because it is unrealistic - I can say the same for human mounted miniguns and plasma rifles.
Because Fallout has rippers and powerfists, they should be far more useful than farm and sell ' em
Now some reasonable thoghts please. For those who don't want to boost unarmed and melee - just post something like "Minigon rulezz!!!" and stop flood please.
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Why it is stupid?
And why "we don't need we don't need" You don't need may be.
Boosting hp won't do ANYTHING.
I don't see many melee builds, do you? That's where WE comes from.
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I don't see many melee builds, do you?
Because the suck so much as the are now. That's why I suggest to do something
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Now some reasonable thoghts please. For those who don't want to boost unarmed and melee - just post something like "Minigon rulezz!!!" and stop flood please.
There's nothing wrong with melee used in pvp, it's just a matter of how it's used. Worst way to implement it would be that meleedude has to only charge his targets and that's it. Sneaking would be more acceptable, but why sneak and stab if you can just shoot?
Melee could work accompanied with guns. When you're over range, you use guns but when you're really close it'd be better to use melee.
If you think about it, a strong big gunner could be a good fistfighter (except that our big gunners aren't strong) and sniper should without a doubt know how to handle a knife.
Game mechanics just have to be tuned to favour that kind of gameplay. Like I said, instant turning, too sweeping line of sight, equal running speed in all situations and instant firing just make it impossible to implement a melee in pvp so that it makes everyone happy. In addition to be good at melee, it demands too many perks that are away from gunfighting skills. However, perks like more crits and better crits work in melee and shooting so it's an example how perks should be like. Bonus ranged damage could be combined with bonus hth damage, same with brof and bhtha.
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Who those who don't get it - THE WHOLE IDEA has nothing to do so-called "REALIZM"
Because F universe has nothing to do with it.
You play a bluesuit, who stands and looks epic.
Let us remember Chuck Norris for example. He can kill a mini-gunner.
Unarmed and melee should act as extremely deadly masters of fight like in the movies.
Imagine unarmed with 65% max chance hit running towards to minigunner. Miniguner burst, and unarmed has 35% chance to remain intact. Why? Because he's perfectly mastered to control his body, he makes somersaults and other evasive maneuvres. Yes we don't have such animation, but still can imagine.
Seriously? Where is the logic in this?
So martial arts masters can move faster than bullets... No that happens only in the matrix.
The whole realism thing is bullshit, this IS Fallout Online and the only shit that should make sense is the shit that actually goes down in the fallout universe. I have not played one fallout game where my unarmed/melee skill has allowed me to dodge bullets. Nor have I really used a melee/unarmed weapon to charge an enemy with a gun. Why? Not because melee/unarmed suck, but because IT IS STUPID TO RUN HEAD ON TOWARDS A MAN WITH A GUN WITH THE INTENTION OF KILLING HIM WITH YOUR HANDS.
Melee/unarmed isn't nerfed, it's just meant for other things besides owning in PVP.
Want to use melee in pvp? Make a thrower/melee hybrid. Use frags to knock down enemy and beat him to death with your hands/melee weapon. OR use a sneak build.
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Unarmed is a good skill in this game. You don't need to craft, repair, buy weapons or ammo. You can beat most enemies in TB, you just have to avoid bursters or strike first and strike hard.
The downside is that in pvp you will always die.
Melee sucks. Sure super catle prod can hit for nice damage, but you need to craft it, get ammo etc, so you migth as well use a gun...
...as for the realism gun vs knife... You grab his hand holding the gun, force it aside and stab him while he's fighting to regain his gun.
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Unarmed is a good skill in this game. You don't need to craft, repair, buy weapons or ammo. You can beat most enemies in TB, you just have to avoid bursters or strike first and strike hard.
The downside is that in pvp you will always die.
Melee sucks. Sure super catle prod can hit for nice damage, but you need to craft it, get ammo etc, so you migth as well use a gun...
...as for the realism gun vs knife... You grab his hand holding the gun, force it aside and stab him while he's fighting to regain his gun.
I agree with everything except the bolded line. The whole notion is that the gunman would be able to shoot you down before you even got to him. Eex wants to make it so that a melee/unarmed person can dance through a flurry of bullets and punch all his opponents in the face, killing them outright... And that's absolutely ridiculous.
This idea kind of goes with the bolded statement. INCREASE the critical failure rate of gunners standing too close to their targets. Critical failure in that case could involve some sort of tussle for the gun or a physical action such as the gun being knocked from your hand in the heat of battle.
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You can beat most enemies in TB, you just have to avoid bursters or strike first and strike hard.
What enemies? NPC like raiders? Even 4 mercs near SF and you're dead.
As for vs. player, you will not kill even 1 lvl bluesuit, because he will simply walk away.
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I've killed deathclaws with a spiked knuckle, beat unity patrols with haymakers, I can kill anything with 120-150 hp in one turn with a rock. Never killed a player.
Its not useless its just not as good as guns.
And just for the record, I don't want hth fighters to turn into jedi, sneak attacks is the only valid option for me... Or 'In your face!' perk.
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... guy with bear hands - who do u think should win ? ...
You made my day.
+1 for an idea. IMHO melee builds really need a good boost. (FIX THIS DAMNED "HTH EVASION" PERK AT LEAST)
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Theres a difference between 1 on 1 scenario and large TC fights involving more than 40 players, where each group acts like platoon. Obviously, you wont stand a chance as a melee against several players aiming at you, no matter what.
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Theres a difference between 1 on 1 scenario and large TC fights involving more than 40 players, where each group acts like platoon. Obviously, you wont stand a chance as a melee against several players aiming at you, no matter what.
Yes, even with this suggestion implemented.