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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Closed suggestions => Topic started by: Badger on January 26, 2010, 12:53:05 am
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Alright, here's my idea.
Every few hours, members of each town's faction fight in some random location over resources/territory/hats/biscuits. Only people that are members can enter the map, to stop people ruining it. Modoc fights against some Reno thugs over cattle, that kind of thing. It's not intended to make a whole lot of sense, it's more meant to be fun and encourage people to join town factions over their own boring little private bases.
Let's say if you join a town's faction, you get your own locker, you respawn there when you die, and you get to use their crafting facilities.
At 3pm GMT, a fight is always scheduled to begin between two factions. I'm an NCR goon, so I sign up to fight. If I'm well equipped, I fight with what I have and have better chance of surviving. If I've got nothing, I get given some pretty crappy 'standard issue' that replaces my current gear and gets confiscated when the fight is over to prevent people farming.
If no players on the enemy team sign up, then it's you versus NPCs. If they do, it's Players and NPCs vs. Players and NPCs. If you win, you get xp and caps. If you lose, you lose.
That's all there is to it.
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That's a great thing you wrote here. Also fighting in those battles could give you positive reputation to the faction you fight for.
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I like it. If I'm reading this correctly, what happens with TC though? If each town has a faction, then in theory that faction should be able to keep its town safe. (Except Redding, because apparently they don't know how to organize themselves with the fight between Reno, VC and NCR from F2).
Jumping off your idea, this could be an opportunity to make TC more interesting. The player faction controlling the town would have to work with those already signed up with the town's faction. Members of a town's faction are somewhat permanent. Meaning they don't leave every 24 hours when the town changes hands. They can always fight for their town and get rewarded when they win. But the player faction is much more disposable. I say that if in these battles a TC town is involved, and it loses, town control opens up. So say XXX faction controlled Modoc. At YYY time Modoc and Den have a battle. If Modoc loses, that faction loses control as well. The members of the town faction, however, lose nothing.
But we can't leave people out of this. Lets say you are an enemy of XXX faction but do not belong to Den's faction. You want to see XXX lose. So you go to Den, and you sign up as a temporary militia. There would have to be a cutoff, like you have to sign up at least 2 real hours before the battle. If you win, you would be rewarded, as well as getting the chance to take over Modoc, but lose nothing if you lose. Every day, the town fights are between different places. (Maybe even see the Enclave attacking a town if the same faction keeps it for too long?) So instead of TC simply being run to a sheriff's office and fight everyone off there could be some strategy.
Battles should, however, not be fought in the town, but in an area slightly outside of town. The defenders get a slight headstart to set up mercs, (mines if they become available) etc.
After the battle opens, members have one chance to enter. If they are killed, the area disappears to them like it does when you leave a faction. After some amount of time, whichever side has more members left (even if one side only has one man) wins. Winners are returned to town with their rewards in their inventory (locker if they are town members) and losers are left to wander the wastes (or return to their town to defend it from attackers). After the battle, the losers have 1 ingame hour before their town hears word of the failure, kicks them out as reigning player faction, and searches for a new replacement. If the losers manage to retake the town, they do the same thing again the next day and hope they win.
Oh and I think players should get a choice to be armed by the town or bring their own. If they are armed by the town, their inventory is replaced by an armor, a gun (players choose their specialty and get a low-mid quality gun of that type) and an appropriate amount of ammo. Winners should keep this, a few caps, and maybe another item as a reward for winning.
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I like it. If I'm reading this correctly, what happens with TC though? If each town has a faction, then in theory that faction should be able to keep its town safe. (Except Redding, because apparently they don't know how to organize themselves with the fight between Reno, VC and NCR from F2).
Yeah, I'm going to admit I've never been too big a fan of the TC system. I'd rather this just replaced it, but I can see why the devs may not want to. Towns never struck me as the place for PvP. Maybe bar brawls and the like, but never as the centre of FOnline's PvP - too many players are accidentally involved when they don't want to be, and there's too many NPCs to get caught in the crossfire. TC towns aren't usually 'guarded', they're just 'murder when you enter because we don't know if you're an enemy' (except with the Klamath Cajuns, I must admit).
Your suggestion would force them to be useful, but if the TC factions are too involved I can see this just being VSB versus Tasty Dudes under the guise of Redding vs. Reno. I'd like for them to be separate, in order to encourage strangers to interact and cooperate when they normally wouldn't have. They have to sacrifice their exclusivity to be able to fight - with a faction you get a private base, with a town you don't but you get better PVP. There aren't many ways for FOnline players to acquaint themselves with other players outside of the forums, and this would definitely force them to cooperate.
However, I could just see factions picking their favourite towns and Klamath basically being the new BBS - but they'd be forced to be diluted by a constant influx of newcomers. Killing a fellow faction member a few times would just get you kicked out.
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You're thinking of big schemes Badger. There's lots of things to implement before factions start fighting each other.
Let's say if you join a town's faction, you get your own locker, you respawn there when you die, and you get to use their crafting facilities.
At 3pm GMT, a fight is always scheduled to begin between two factions. I'm an NCR goon, so I sign up to fight. If I'm well equipped, I fight with what I have and have better chance of surviving. If I've got nothing, I get given some pretty crappy 'standard issue' that replaces my current gear and gets confiscated when the fight is over to prevent people farming.
Sounds good. However with that standard issue gear, how about if the faction had limited storages for standard issue sets and would run out if players died too often and didn't return their issued weapons? In the end it's about victory of your faction, not some pesky assault rifles and smgs. In addition factions could have respawn points to be spent in these fights. When player is killed by enemy faction member or in the combat area, a spawn point is reduced from the common pool. Once it's depleted your faction loses this fight/war.
Yeah, I'm going to admit I've never been too big a fan of the TC system. I'd rather this just replaced it, but I can see why the devs may not want to. Towns never struck me as the place for PvP. Maybe bar brawls and the like, but never as the centre of FOnline's PvP - too many players are accidentally involved when they don't want to be, and there's too many NPCs to get caught in the crossfire. TC towns aren't usually 'guarded', they're just 'murder when you enter because we don't know if you're an enemy' (except with the Klamath Cajuns, I must admit).
That's how it goes. It's quite irrational but there has to be some pvp grounds around. It hurts nubs alot but if they are smart, it hurts them only once. Perhaps in future we'd get some sense to the whole pvp system. Quite certainly trappers in Klamath would not allow constant murdering and body mutilation in their town, neither would the farmers in modoc.
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Sounds good. However with that standard issue gear, how about if the faction had limited storages for standard issue sets and would run out if players died too often and didn't return their issued weapons? In the end it's about victory of your faction, not some pesky assault rifles and smgs. In addition factions could have respawn points to be spent in these fights. When player is killed by enemy faction member or in the combat area, a spawn point is reduced from the common pool. Once it's depleted your faction loses this fight/war.
Not so keen on the respawn point/limited gear idea. You forget how shitty people can be. I can honestly see people making fake characters, getting them into a faction, and deliberately screwing things up by losing the limited gear and wasting respawn points. Maybe to help their friends win, or maybe just to be a dick.
What you've made me think of, in the spirit of cooperation with strangers, is a faction 'Quartermaster'. If you've got a bunch of spare gear, you can donate it to your faction's gear pool and gain reputation (maybe a bit of xp). Other faction members can get one donated piece of gear every 3/6/12/24 hours or so (depending on the value of the gear), and you have to be a faction member of good standing and over level 3 to get access.
That's how it goes. It's quite irrational but there has to be some pvp grounds around. It hurts nubs alot but if they are smart, it hurts them only once. Perhaps in future we'd get some sense to the whole pvp system. Quite certainly trappers in Klamath would not allow constant murdering and body mutilation in their town, neither would the farmers in modoc.
Oh, yeah, I agree that there should be a lot of dangerous places where you can get your face shot off at any time without warning, but I don't think those places should be towns. They should be places with a lot of raw materials, or areas with dangerous monsters or rare tech. It defies logic that the least safe place to be in a post apocalyptic world isn't the desert, it's a backwater farming town.
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I guess having spawnpoints would be bad, but winning battles with material overpower would still be logical. That's how recent wars are fought. It just have to be made so that only trusted and respected faction members are allowed to receive free stuff every now and then. Like you described: stuff per timeunit, quality depends on your reputation. This way some shitheads farming lugers won't be such a big deal. Players could lose their reputation if they keep taking more than providing.
What you've made me think of, in the spirit of cooperation with strangers, is a faction 'Quartermaster'. If you've got a bunch of spare gear, you can donate it to your faction's gear pool and gain reputation (maybe a bit of xp). Other faction members can get one donated piece of gear every 3/6/12/24 hours or so (depending on the value of the gear), and you have to be a faction member of good standing and over level 3 to get access.
This would release the lone players from being forced to be pure crafter/fighters. They could just be respected members of faction and gain their material needs from there in exchange of participating battles and giving away some of their surplus loot. This system would indeed encourage players to participate faction events, befriend certain people and consider others as enemies. This way we'd get rational pvp.
To gain faction reputation would be killing the enemies of this faction - players and npcs alike, donating stuff and participating faction events. Faction events would be these battles, escorting faction's caravans etc.
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To gain faction reputation would be killing the enemies of this faction - players and npcs alike, donating stuff and participating faction events. Faction events would be these battles, escorting faction's caravans etc.
Hell, even 'Junktown Scouts' and 'NCR Patrols' could now include players as well as NPCs. If you want a bit of cash and xp, you offer to go out on patrol. You get accompanied by NPCs and your path is fixed, so you can't just murder bluesuits in the name of Junktown.
I guess having spawnpoints would be bad, but winning battles with material overpower would still be logical. That's how recent wars are fought.
I'd say that could still work if both players and NPCs were equipped with good gear from the 'gear pool' before the infinite supply of (unfarmable) standard issues. That way you could still make a decent impact on the outcome of a fight if you handed out good gear.
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That's a nice way of saying "to hell with those player factions that keep killing me and my mates, screw their politics, economic stability and all that endgame stuff, just make them gtfo from the towns and throw them some shitty encounter battles so that they shut up about having their fun taken away". And being in a player faction is not about having a base, it's about placing the PvP you do in a proper context - you have control over your actions, you take the responsibility, you pay the price if you screw up. The possibilities in the current system are basically endless, limited only by player imagination (as evidenced by spying, scouting, logistics and politics that are all parts of it right now) - and you're proposing to replace it with boring set-piece battles you fight with random people on your side and basically have no control over how they play out. That'd be just silly, with nothing to gain for the PvP crowd. And you "peaceful" guys have all the south at your disposal and then some more - why do you try making us dumbass gang members happy with your brilliant ideas is beyond my understanding, especially since we generally don't try screwing with your part of the game. All I'm hearing here in the forums is "make the north safe" repeated like a mantra over and over again by a very limited and easily identifiable group of people while there was no single thread about remaking NCR into a battlezone. Hmmm... I wonder why ::)
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Nice_Boat you're misunderstanding this thread as some sort of conspiracy against your gaming values.
while there was no single thread about remaking NCR into a battlezone. Hmmm... I wonder why
Because nobody really wants that? Ever tried to trade in New Reno?
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Nice_Boat you're misunderstanding this thread as some sort of conspiracy against your gaming values.
I don't think that's a misunderstanding since the author has specifically stated that he doesn't like the whole "north is for TC" idea and wants us bloodthirsty bastards out of the cities. I think that's what you could call a carebear-nazi.
Because nobody really wants that? Ever tried to trade in New Reno?
Yeah, I did trade in New Reno and I did PvP in NCR - both are silly ideas that have little to no chances of working. And it's good cause we have both PvP and trading and we know where to go looking for each.
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I don't think that's a misunderstanding since the author has specifically stated that he doesn't like the whole "north is for TC" idea and wants us bloodthirsty bastards out of the cities. I think that's what you could call a carebear-nazi.
Yeah, I did trade in New Reno and I did PvP in NCR - both are silly ideas that have little to no chances of working. And it's good cause we have both PvP and trading and we know where to go looking for each.
Yeah, you caught me. My secret master plan is to make the northern towns used for something other than battlegrounds, and let players (even players without bases, god forbid) engage in PvP that's structured, has an overall goal that isn't HA WE SHOT U LOSERS IN MODOC I HAVE UR GEAR I RP SHITTIN IN UR MOUTH. But shh. Don't tell anyone. Secret.
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Yeah, you caught me. My secret master plan is to make the northern towns used for something other than battlegrounds, and let players (even players without bases, god forbid) engage in PvP that's structured, has an overall goal that isn't HA WE SHOT U LOSERS IN MODOC I HAVE UR GEAR I RP SHITTIN IN UR MOUTH. But shh. Don't tell anyone. Secret.
PvP right now is structured (with an overall goal and all this shit) to the point most free-roamers are ready to puke due to:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=21.0
... so yeah, we don't really need your Master Plan, neither do we need random no-names forcing themselves upon our teams, flat combat zones and free gear. Go be happy in your south, let us be happy in our north. If you want to PvP and have no base, either a) join a gang or b) create your own gang and join one of the alliances. Or just murder someone in Reno. Simple, isn't it? And hey, it's been like that for a long, long time and, unlike your Master Plan it actually is proven and works.
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Splitting the playerbase to "you and we" won't have a bright future. One way or another pvp will be suited to fit the game world so that everyone knows why they are fighting and who. Devs have said that they want to mend the pvp and rp/whatever into one solid world. If you don't want any restrictions, play raiders. They are allowed to do whatever they want, or just keep your own total anarchy faction. I'd be more than pleased trying to hunt you down as some sort of sheriff or bounty hunter. The reason why I don't do it now is because evil dudes got so many names and there's no telling who's bad and who's not.
And the old pvp system working? Maybe for some, but basically every new player feedback is partially about why they were killed by people they didn't provoke in any way.
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Splitting the playerbase to "you and we" won't have a bright future. One way or another pvp will be suited to fit the game world so that everyone knows why they are fighting and who. Devs have said that they want to mend the pvp and rp/whatever into one solid world.
Actually it is one solid world, because most of the factions that do the fighting also do a lot of trading - so you may not be aware of that fact, but the person you sold the rockets yesterday could be the person blowing you up tommorow. Same with rp - it happens from time to time even for "hardcore powergamers lol", for example when they negotiate their position inside their alliance etc. It's actually a wonderfully complex and interlinked environment - but you have to actually play and reach the endgame to appreciate it, something I'm more and more sure Badger didn't bother to do (and if you did, what's your gang, man - and what's your position in it?).
If you don't want any restrictions, play raiders. They are allowed to do whatever they want, or just keep your own total anarchy faction. I'd be more than pleased trying to hunt you down as some sort of sheriff or bounty hunter. The reason why I don't do it now is because evil dudes got so many names and there's no telling who's bad and who's not.
We're playing raiders, we're fighting the NA who fancy themselves the sheriffs of the vastes, you might want to join their cause. They have the names you need etc. If you want to play raiders, join us. This part of the game works, but to get to some serious groups you need to put some effort in - is that really bad? What do you propose instead - forcing veteran players to fight side by side with newbies? Replacing player driven politics with some bullshit "NCR vs Vault City" noone's going to care about? Nobody's going to enjoy that in the long run (because it's much more shallow than what we have now) and it's going to look more like a public Counter-Strike game than "well-structured PvP placed in a proper context". You could have some occasions for beginner PvP based around AI factions, but that would be way better if the player-driven caravan system was implemented as an addition to town control we have now.
And the old pvp system working? Maybe for some, but basically every new player feedback is partially about why they were killed by people they didn't provoke in any way.
Are you telling me that there are new players who don't know there's a major, large scale war going on? If so they should get informed before trying to travel because well, you know, wasteland is harsh... ;D
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We're playing raiders [...]
How comes that many people never saw a single person playing a raider proper?
What exactly are the goals of you "raiders"? Attacking people in towns for... what?
Raiders in the fallout games raided to.. survive, to get food, valuables or.. women,slaves etc.
What do you "raid" exactly? Of course I don't know the actual circumstances because I'm not involved there, but for players not joining this "war" it looks just... stupid.
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How comes that many people never saw a single person playing a raider proper?
What's playing a raider proper? Engaging in idle conversations in the middle of combat? Sorry, can't do that - I don't have an additional pair of hands to type while I'm busy searching for targets, exchanging fire or applying first aid. Moreover - even if I could, I wouldn't if the battle wasn't over cause those large chunks of text (and especially the red ones) are a nice bullet magnet.
What exactly are the goals of you "raiders"? Attacking people in towns for... what?
But for their belongings of course.
Raiders in the fallout games raided to.. survive, to get food, valuables or.. women,slaves etc.
What do you "raid" exactly?
We raid the towns, force them to pay us tribute and get valuables from the people we don't know who just happen to be unlucky enough to be there. That pretty much fits the description, doesn't it?
Of course I don't know the actual circumstances because I'm not involved there, but for players not joining this "war" it looks just... stupid.
And yet somehow the people who get involved and fight this war usually end up having the best equipment and being able to project the most power which I believe is the goal of every player driven faction out there (either the ultimate goal, or just means of securing their own little town and doing some rp/trading there).
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We're playing raiders, we're fighting the NA who fancy themselves the sheriffs of the vastes, you might want to join their cause.
Nah, youre just powergaming. The fact is that killing everyone everywhere and using trading and crafting alts happens to be the most powerful method to gain power in this game. By power I mean items. There's not much bigger goal. Besides, there's no way to really change the gameworld. You can keep blasting your enemies forever but nothing really changes. People die, stuff changes its owner and that's it.
What do you propose instead - forcing veteran players to fight side by side with newbies? Replacing player driven politics with some bullshit "NCR vs Vault City" noone's going to care about? Nobody's going to enjoy that in the long run (because it's much more shallow than what we have now) and it's going to look more like a public Counter-Strike game than "well-structured PvP placed in a proper context".
The reason why I think npc factions should have bigger role is that players who don't want to be involved in intense player controlled clan game schemes is this:
Being in clan has a social burden. You have this "feel of responsibility" when you're running an event with your gangmates. It's not proper to leave in the middle of enlonged fight because it could mean your faction could lose. Having npc factions players could enjoy being in a society without the responsibility to constantly work for the common good, or to wonder who's gonna have to mine more ore or take less stuff from cabinets. Neither you'd need to discuss the faction's policies because it has certain laws that everyone agrees on (to murder or not to murder). You could gain fame, wealth and power by being a respected member of that faction or just hang around there because of the security the city offers. Besides, you could pick the guys inside this npc faction whom you want to co-operate with.
I'm quite sure that everyone is somewhat interested in changing the game world, even thought they might not care about the glory of Vault City. But to change the bigger schemes it would have to happen through npc factions because only they got the manpower and materials. You think some random "The Westside Roughboys" gang could ever take over ncr? Ncr has 10k soldiers. Good luck.
But if you want to raid modoc, kill or enslave everyone there, it sounds plausible.
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Nah, youre just powergaming. The fact is that killing everyone everywhere and using trading and crafting alts happens to be the most powerful method to gain power in this game. By power I mean items. There's not much bigger goal. Besides, there's no way to really change the gameworld. You can keep blasting your enemies forever but nothing really changes. People die, stuff changes its owner and that's it.
What does it mean to powergame? We're doing the same stuff raiders did in FO2, only we're doing it in a more efficient manner because we're, you know, humans and this is a player driven environment. And what do you mean by changing the gameworld? There were at least 3 historical events that basically reshaped the wasteland po-wipe:
- BBS domination
- NA was formed
- DA was formed
... and all of these influenced basically EVERYONE including the NCR dwellers whether they have the honesty to admit it or not. The fact that one side is blasting the other more, hence gathering more stuff is enough to change the gameworld and actually have a lot of influence on the towns the given faction choses to camp.
The reason why I think npc factions should have bigger role is that players who don't want to be involved in intense player controlled clan game schemes is this:
Being in clan has a social burden. You have this "feel of responsibility" when you're running an event with your gangmates. It's not proper to leave in the middle of enlonged fight because it could mean your faction could lose. Having npc factions players could enjoy being in a society without the responsibility to constantly work for the common good, or to wonder who's gonna have to mine more ore or take less stuff from cabinets. Neither you'd need to discuss the faction's policies because it has certain laws that everyone agrees on (to murder or not to murder). You could gain fame, wealth and power by being a respected member of that faction or just hang around there because of the security the city offers. Besides, you could pick the guys inside this npc faction whom you want to co-operate with.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somehow not many people are really willing to enjoy their membership in the Enclave or the Vault City. Maybe because, you know, having your own faction that is actually 100% player driven instead of being a collection of repetitive scripts is, you know, more fun ::)
I'm quite sure that everyone is somewhat interested in changing the game world, even thought they might not care about the glory of Vault City. But to change the bigger schemes it would have to happen through npc factions because only they got the manpower and materials. You think some random "The Westside Roughboys" gang could ever take over ncr? Ncr has 10k soldiers. Good luck.
That's why best you could hope for in the NCR is stirring up the slums for a few minutes. It's already there. As for changing the bigger schemes - as you've said, those factions are a) npc driven, b) have no business in open military confrontation and c) too big to be influenced by some random wasteland dudes.
But if you want to raid modoc, kill or enslave everyone there, it sounds plausible.
That's why TC is restricted to the smaller towns.
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What does it mean to powergame? We're doing the same stuff raiders did in FO2, only we're doing it in a more efficient manner because we're, you know, humans and this is a player driven environment.
Yeah right. Being player driven enviroment alone changes all your goals. I bet that you're just doing everything that's possible, rather than doing what raiders would do. If you could force everyone in the game to carry an apple on their primary slot and worship brahmins, you'd do it just out of interest. Killing people and taking their stuff just happens to be the most interesting way to interact with other players right now.
And what do you mean by changing the gameworld? There were at least 3 historical events that basically reshaped the wasteland po-wipe:
- BBS domination
- NA was formed
- DA was formed
... and all of these influenced basically EVERYONE including the NCR dwellers whether they have the honesty to admit it or not. The fact that one side is blasting the other more, hence gathering more stuff is enough to change the gameworld and actually have a lot of influence on the towns the given faction choses to
camp.
I don't know a single DA member, let alone NA. I don't even know which faction member you are. From my point of view the only influence the gangs seem to have on the game world is to make the unguarded towns unsafe, fill the worldmap with caravan cars and occasionally try to stir up some confusion in guarded towns. Basically none of the unguarded towns have something so important that a player has to visit them more than once, so camping there doesn't have such a big impact on the game world.
By changing the world I mean simply changing something of the gameworld towards your own favour. For example right now there's no way to defeat or conquer anyone for extended time period. If you're a gang who decides to establish their own rules and laws in Den, they may do it for 8 hours in row but when they leave its all for nothing. There's no way to declare that you have gained a significant checkpoint in the timeline of the server. I would call it an achievement if some group could establish their own city in the middle of all this chaos.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somehow not many people are really willing to enjoy their membership in the Enclave or the Vault City. Maybe because, you know, having your own faction that is actually 100% player driven instead of being a collection of repetitive scripts is, you know, more fun ::)
That's why best you could hope for in the NCR is stirring up the slums for a few minutes. It's already there. As for changing the bigger schemes - as you've said, those factions are a) npc driven, b) have no business in open military confrontation and c) too big to be influenced by some random wasteland dudes.
That's why TC is restricted to the smaller towns.
Players could choose the factions whiches rules suit them best. Raiders, slavers and New Reno gangs would be closest to total anarcy. NCR rangers and brotherhood would be the wasteland police, but with rules that prevent cruelty towards innocents. Because players that are fans of total anarchy would basically destroy the whole world if they could, their factions have to have limited power.
There's nowhere near clear picture how exactly this whole npc faction system could work. There's no telling yet how and how much players should be allowed to change the npc faction's policy or extend its influence over the wasteland. But it certainly doesn't have to be repetitive scripts. Maybe a player could become the general of vault city's security forces, the president of ncr or the leader of raiders. He would have to make decisions that make the faction stronger, not fuck it up.
However I do admit that freedom to have your own gang and being part of its conquest over the gameworld is fascinating. This fascination is the engine that runs many mmo games but in those games there are always rules, boundaries and common goals which all the gangs follow or they perish or fail have any influence.
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Yeah right. Being player driven enviroment alone changes all your goals. I bet that you're just doing everything that's possible, rather than doing what raiders would do. If you could force everyone in the game to carry an apple on their primary slot and worship brahmins, you'd do it just out of interest. Killing people and taking their stuff just happens to be the most interesting way to interact with other players right now.
I don't think that raiding Vault City to kill Lynette or the NCR to intercept a trading operation is really all that cost effective. But we did it because that's what raiders would do and we liked the idea. Moreover, we don't really craft that much somewhat limiting our resources even though we could do it without any problems. But then again - you seem to know what we do and what we don't do better than us, so this part of our discussion doesn't seem to go anywhere.
I don't know a single DA member, let alone NA. I don't even know which faction member you are. From my point of view the only influence the gangs seem to have on the game world is to make the unguarded towns unsafe, fill the worldmap with caravan cars and occasionally try to stir up some confusion in guarded towns. Basically none of the unguarded towns have something so important that a player has to visit them more than once, so camping there doesn't have such a big impact on the game world.
They have the cash and having cash gives a lot of benefits - along with the possible equipment gains when your faction wins it's all well worth it. The unguarded towns are unsafe because fighting has been quite fierce lately. Before that stage, DA was winning so you couldn't really expect to feel safe there.
By changing the world I mean simply changing something of the gameworld towards your own favour. For example right now there's no way to defeat or conquer anyone for extended time period. If you're a gang who decides to establish their own rules and laws in Den, they may do it for 8 hours in row but when they leave its all for nothing. There's no way to declare that you have gained a significant checkpoint in the timeline of the server. I would call it an achievement if some group could establish their own city in the middle of all this chaos.
That's because no side has gained an advantage significant enough to establish their rule. You could defeat or conquer anyone if you had enough people and stuff to outclass them.
Players could choose the factions whiches rules suit them best. Raiders, slavers and New Reno gangs would be closest to total anarcy. NCR rangers and brotherhood would be the wasteland police, but with rules that prevent cruelty towards innocents. Because players that are fans of total anarchy would basically destroy the whole world if they could, their factions have to have limited power.
Yeah, but it's more about choosing your own companions than about the groups' mindset. I mean, if I were a member of Mordinos I'd to have to deal with other Mordinos even if I didn't like them. That way those factions would have simply no coherence and esprit the corps if you will, which is what makes the current gang scene so awesome to participate in.
There's nowhere near clear picture how exactly this whole npc faction system could work. There's no telling yet how and how much players should be allowed to change the npc faction's policy or extend its influence over the wasteland. But it certainly doesn't have to be repetitive scripts. Maybe a player could become the general of vault city's security forces, the president of ncr or the leader of raiders. He would have to make decisions that make the faction stronger, not fuck it up.
There's no way NPC factions could be both open and player governed. It'd eventually lead to the towns becoming very hermetic communities and new players would be even more screwed than they are now. Besides, aside from the label - what different would being VC general be from being a gangleader right now? The only REAL difference would be a very limited faction number which never is a good thing.
However I do admit that freedom to have your own gang and being part of its conquest over the gameworld is fascinating. This fascination is the engine that runs many mmo games but in those games there are always rules, boundaries and common goals which all the gangs follow or they perish or fail have any influence.
There are rules (see TC system and the guarded towns are) and there are unwritten rules (make your fights give you economic profit instead of loss, choose your friends carefully, some tactical stuff which changes from town to town etc.). It's all there, you're barking up the wrong tree right now.
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Got an addendum I'd like to add this idea. Attacking a player who's a member of another town's faction unprovoked earns you minus reputation with that faction. Nothing too huge, maybe just -100 per person or something. And obviously it gets degraded over time like all reputation.
Obviously it needs to be tweaked to consider suicide bombs, stealing etc. But it does cause indiscriminate slaughter to have a consequence, even if you always win.
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They have the cash and having cash gives a lot of benefits - along with the possible equipment gains when your faction wins it's all well worth it. The unguarded towns are unsafe because fighting has been quite fierce lately. Before that stage, DA was winning so you couldn't really expect to feel safe there.
They can be as rich as they want but still it won't change anything. It's not like they are going to burst into my tent and enforce me to pay them tax. Nor will they buy the whole Hub and start governing it how they see fit. If I'm not interested in their affairs, their power cannot reach me.
That's because no side has gained an advantage significant enough to establish their rule. You could defeat or conquer anyone if you had enough people and stuff to outclass them.
Or a group of people with such determination towards the game that it's not even healthy. I've read an article about game called Asheron's Call where group of determined players prevented an event by taking turns in watching over some area. That is not what the game should encourage. Certain mmo games go too far with maximized effectivity, having people wake up in the middle of night to perform certain tasks. There should be easier ways to have visible impact on game world.
Yeah, but it's more about choosing your own companions than about the groups' mindset. I mean, if I were a member of Mordinos I'd to have to deal with other Mordinos even if I didn't like them. That way those factions would have simply no coherence and esprit the corps if you will, which is what makes the current gang scene so awesome to participate in.
Indeed, players could have to get to deal with people they don't want to know. But common goals force people to teamwork, just think of any team based pvp game. Even though there can be inner quarrels, they all want that it is their faction/team that wins. That's how it goes everywhere.
There's no way NPC factions could be both open and player governed. It'd eventually lead to the towns becoming very hermetic communities and new players would be even more screwed than they are now. Besides, aside from the label - what different would being VC general be from being a gangleader right now? The only REAL difference would be a very limited faction number which never is a good thing.
It's hard to say certainly what would happen if players had a say over npc factions. Nevertheless, all I'm trying tell that there needs to be more to reach for in the world. I've read some messages how the game turns uninteresting once max level has been reached. At that point players have enough stuff to arm themselves with the best available gear or buy every brahmin in the world, but there's nothing to fight for or nothing to put that money. Players can think of some imaginary goals for themselves but such things don't have any impact on the gameworld nor are they marked anywhere. Fighting for and strenghtening an npc factions would provide players a long term goal and it would be on par with fallout background story.
However, it's basically all the same what this long term goal would be, as long as it suits the wasteland theme.
There are rules (see TC system and the guarded towns are) and there are unwritten rules (make your fights give you economic profit instead of loss, choose your friends carefully, some tactical stuff which changes from town to town etc.). It's all there, you're barking up the wrong tree right now.
By rules and boundaries I meant rules that should encourage players not to play in irrational ways compared to the game world's theme. If the theme is wasteland and fallout, players should be after survival and perhaps even survival of their kin. This way the feel of the game is kept, powergaming goes along with roleplaying and people have clear visions about what they want to achieve. Some gangs fighting just because they can fight has nothing to do with survival because they could just live peacefully. However if they fought over a watersupply, it'd be another story.
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I have nothing against providing further goals in the endgame (but I think you're a bit mistaken about the ammount of stuff those people tend to have) - I'd gladly see something more to do even though fighting for control and prestige is fun enough. What I totally disagree with is that it has to be based around NPC driven factions. They could get interested in a gang that has taken control over given ammount of towns for a given ammount of time and perhaps hire it to wage a little proxy war or guard their caravan for an additional reward in caps or nice equipment if successful (which I'd say wouldn't go against F2 lore too much if at all), but I think we shouldn't be looking this way in the long run. Maybe making resources more location specific would make some sense (fighting for water supply seems bad cause it'd require 24/7, but having some resources become available to the faction that won the town control would be a nice idea aside from the fact that it could cause serious balance issues if one of the factions became too dominant over time). I also don't like the idea of "permament achievement", as it implies that the game could be "won" - ie. one of the factions could become so powerful that others simply wouldn't have a shot against them.
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Nice_Boat, you're absolutely mistaken if you think the current state of PVP doesnt affect the way others play. All of the cities are different; there are some crucial low-tier quests in Modoc and the north towns, and all the PVP shit really interferes with that. Remember, YOU may not have use for those NPCs in those towns but I'd say almost all of the starting players will. The suggestion in this thread is atleast aimed at letting more people play the way they want instead of mob rule in an unbalanced beta win out. You have no sense of decency, if you consider new players and decide "my actions / our actions as PVPers in the north don't interfere with game flow or new players". The south is nothing like the north, from a newbies perspective there's nothing to really help a player out down there (after the initial, unrepeatable quests have been done).
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Nice_Boat, you're absolutely mistaken if you think the current state of PVP doesnt affect the way others play. All of the cities are different; there are some crucial low-tier quests in Modoc and the north towns, and all the PVP shit really interferes with that. Remember, YOU may not have use for those NPCs in those towns but I'd say almost all of the starting players will. The suggestion in this thread is atleast aimed at letting more people play the way they want instead of mob rule in an unbalanced beta win out. You have no sense of decency, if you consider new players and decide "my actions / our actions as PVPers in the north don't interfere with game flow or new players". The south is nothing like the north, from a newbies perspective there's nothing to really help a player out down there (after the initial, unrepeatable quests have been done).
It does affect the way others play - I was the one saying that, avv was the one saying that it doesn't. And you're saying that the obvious solution is moving PvP out of the towns to some shitty, boring flatlands instead of moving some beginner quests to the safe towns? And after making such a claim you dare to talk about decency? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Besides, guess what - I'm not the one to blame. Ask the devs why all the quests are up north. Because honestly I couldn't care less about the wellbeing of new players' characters that are in no way related to my group. Nevertheless you're right that it creates a conflict between the newbies and the advanced players with a very predictable outcome. It's just a failed design choice that's been there since last 2238 session started, nothing more, nothing less. Or maybe it's not that bad and you just weren't smart enough/didn't know the game well enough/didn't ask the right people to pull getting the suitcase to Metzger off. Either way suggesting that those 3000exp points should come before the core of the game (remember how 2238 was supposed to be a faction mod in the first place?) is just batshit insane.
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And you're saying that the obvious solution is moving PvP out of the towns to some shitty, boring flatlands
Who said anything about flatlands? Why not a Sierra attack/defense? The Cathedral? The Stables? Mariposa? Ghost Farm? Golgotha? Navarro? Toxic Caves? Vault 15? Hell, maybe even places that don't exist yet. Maybe maps cannibalised over from other stuff, like the Restoration Project or Fan Made Fallout.
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Who said anything about flatlands? Why not a Sierra attack/defense? The Cathedral? The Stables? Mariposa? Ghost Farm? Golgotha? Navarro? Toxic Caves? Vault 15? Hell, maybe even places that don't exist yet. Maybe maps cannibalised over from other stuff, like the Restoration Project or Fan Made Fallout.
Maybe because making something of the caliber of Broken Hills or Klamath would take a shitload of work? And honestly, all the locations you talk about would suck at PvP except Navarro, which wouldn't make any sense lore-wise. And I still don't understand why are you so strongly opposed to the way PvP and protected areas are divided now. I agree that making some noob-quests in Boneyard, NCR, SF, Hub or Necropolis would make sense, hell it'd make even more sense if some high risk quests were left in the PvP cities - but forcing the PvP crowd out of the cities and, as a matter of fact away from the rest wouldn't do any good. And face it, mingling different level individuals (both player skill-wise and character skill-wise) wouldn't really work, as people generally dislike being forced to do something, to work with someone they barely even know etc. Even TLA, which doesn't have a faction system implemented has people divided into gangs, groups of interest and alliances. Every gameplay mechanic should work with this fact in mind, not against it.
As a matter of fact, I think that your idea would be a great supplement to the current TC system - but by no means should it replace the current gangs. If we had NPC faction based combat, gang based combat and player-driven caravans eventually we'd have some sort of progression in the PvP game - and introducing bonus exp (like 3000 for a successful mission and 5000 for a caravan escorted) would mean that people would stop beating their dogs to get to the fun part and start playing the game instead. All in all I really think we need evolution instead of a revolution.