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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: RavenousRat on December 20, 2010, 11:06:31 am
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May be hard to implement, but easy to understand suggestion without wierd "rounds" or global turns or something.
For example you need 5.00 seconds to restore AP from 0% to 100%, but you can do that by different ways!
Sequence means reaction of a character, how he's fast in starting actions... bla bla bla, who cares what's sequence anyway, so it'll work like that:
You're blind moron with 1 PE and minimal possible sequence: 2, name is Character A.
He's 10 PE attentive kamikaze, who, for some crazy reason, took all possible sequence perks. 31 sequence, Character B.
Both, Character A and B, will have full ammount of AP from 0 to thier max AP in 5 seconds. But than more sequence you have than faster it replenish at the start and slower in the end, it'll look like this:
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8751/85445634.jpg)
This way you can see that low sequence character will regen AP slower than high sequence at the start, but later, when he'll have =>50% he'll regen AP faster to compinsate it.
It'll make Earlier Sequence perk useful, the same about Kamikaze trait.
Fast Shots trait users will have an advantage with higher sequence because of low AP per shot usage, making this class more useful than now.
If say in words:
1)
Character A will have only 2 sequence, for example he has 10 AP.
He shots you twice in the head with a pistol, now he has 0 AP.
In the same time Character B, who has 31 sequence have the same ammount of AP and did the same.
In 1 second A will have almost... 1 AP, so still 0 APs, while B will have 3 AP already! (don't worry, it's a big sacrifice to take x3 earlier sequence perks so 31 sequence isn't reasonable...)
In 2 seconds A will have 2 APs, B will have 5 APs.
In 3 seconds A will have 3 APs, B will have 8 APs.
In 4 seconds A will have 6 APs, B will have 9 APs.
In 5 seconds A and B will have 10 APs.
2)
Character A is smart, he knows that if he'll lose all APs he'll restore it slowly, so he shots B's head only once!
Character B is smart too, so he shots his head twice!
In this case high sequence allows you to have less unspent APs to use your character in combat properly, while low AP forces you to leave some APs.
In this way:
A shot only once, he has 5 APs. it's 50% of his APs, so it's like starts from 2.5th second:
In 1 second A will have ~6 APs, B will have 3 APs.
In 2 seconds A will have ~9 APs, B will have 5 APs.
In between of 2 and 3 seconds A will have 10 APs.
In 3 seconds A will still have 10 APs, B will have 8 APs.
In 4 seconds A will still have 10 APs, B will have 9 APs.
In 5 seconds A and B will have 10 APs.
Well.. it's some kind of suggestion.
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Ok you've obviously thought something out. I'm just afraid to see PE10 kamikaze-jet snipers spamming headshots.
Fast Shots trait users will have an advantage with higher sequence because of low AP per shot usage, making this class more useful than now.
If say in words:
Unless you can provide some dps statistics, the fact remains that high spike damage is more effective than many less effective attacks. If you get one-shotted by big gun or receive high dmg knockout shot in the head, being able to shoot single shots fast is no use. It's rather problematic that everyone starts combat with full ap and is able to deliver high ap cost attacks instantly.
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Sequence is passive ability derived from special, am i right? Its purpose was to choose which side will start combat in turn based mode, if this possibility should not be random. So why add more role to passive atributes? The only reason you want is because this attribute is not usable in real time PvP. But there is no need to use it, because it is real time, not TB.
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Sequence have nothing to do with AP regen, which is (more logicaly) already affected by max AP. Sequence can't make any sense in RT, it's pure TB concept.
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EDIT: but Lordus is right. There's already enough passive features which declare the outcome in pvp. Even though RaRat's formula would have something to do with player's skill, it would still make sequence another attribute to minmax.
Sequence have nothing to do with AP regen, which is (more logicaly) already affected by max AP. Sequence can't make any sense in RT, it's pure TB concept.
Actually it can. It could work as delay for player's actions but only along with auto-target and shoot feature. So if we had similar autoshoot as fallout tactics, sequence would declare who would shoot very first when 2 players with auto-shoot would meet.
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Sequence in TB determinates who will have 1st turn, of couse fights in TB are in encounters... it means PvP sequence works bad there already, because if someone will find your encounter he'll have his turn after current turn cycle anyway.
Ok you've obviously thought something out. I'm just afraid to see PE10 kamikaze-jet snipers spamming headshots.
If you're going to spend lots perks on earlier sequence, then you'll have some... bad sides in your build, also Kamikaze trait should be reworked and should give sequence equal to AC given from AG or the same just AG/2. So you'll need to have 10 PE, 10 AG, kamikaze trait (-1 trait), also -3 perks, and then you'll be able to shoot faster when you'll spend all APs, I don't think you'll have good build.
Also if it'll be combined with "AP spent on running" suggestion, then sequence will be really work like sequence in TB. Because RT ignores moving, that's why everyone have full AP at start of battle, making running consume AP will make sequence work almost in the similar way like in TB. Also it'll make Bonus Move perk useful as someone suggested to make it leave you atleast with 2 APs (x1 rank) and 4 APs (x2 ranks) while you're running, so you'll have some APs to spend already, so if you'll run, and suddenly you see someone's running and he's very evil, fast sequenced guy can stop, wait some and make 1st shot, while 2nd guy, can do that even faster with bonus move perks, or if he has low sequence, then he better don't stop running and just hide somewhere and regen AP, and be ready, so sequence in this way will make you shoot 1st in that situation, like in TB.
I just want to suggest to make RT more similar to TB. TB-build character will easily dominate RT-build in TB fight, I think RT-build character should have the same thinking about his build in TB, taking into account bonus move/earlier sequence perks and sequence. Also it's too many perks, and you can't take them all, so even if you'll get 31 sequence, you'll pay alot for that.
Edit: removed walls of offtop, it makes text more readable.
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Who thinks RavenousRat should divide his post into points/reformat it totally? Walls of text like these, even if they are smart words, aren't fun to read.
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Who thinks RavenousRat should divide his post into points/reformat it totally? Walls of text like these, even if they are smart words, aren't fun to read.
He bolded some important words dont u see?
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Wut...
Ah, yes, you're talking about first post. It is very well formatted. I was talking about his second post here.
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Sequence rolls order of turns in combat.
Analogy in RT mode would be shortening latent actions, like if you had to wait for shot to go off - sequence would then make that time shorter.
However AP in RT also don't play well enough, at lest I'm not aware if players with higher amount of APs regenerate them faster than others. If not, those points are quite expendable.
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Back to topic.
So your suggestion is nothing more than "hidden" ap recovery bonus. So instead of one value for AP recovery (agility and perks), we will have 2 values. And because of you cannot determine sequence directly (like agility), but it is derived from another special attributes, it will cause "stats derived from stats derived from stats effect", that is not easy to balance.
Also i wrote up, this feature will not give you some kind of choice in pvp, but it will grant you only another passive ability.
So i am against this.
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I'm talking about making RT more similar to TB, of couse it also requres AP spending on running, because it makes different builds acts really by different way in TB and RT,
1) sequence will determinate who will shoot (or something else) 1st if they both were running before,
2) it'll make 2 perks useful which can consume up to 5 perk slots (x3+x2),
3) it'll make instant death more rare,
4) sequence will play role not only in TB, but also RT.
If you want to make your characted based on sequence it means you'll be allowed to run and almost instantly shoot someone, but it'll take alot perk slots leaving your character without some other useful perks.
Without spending APs on running in RT this suggestion will affect only continues fighting, where everyone shot on all APs, and then more sequenced characters can start fighting faster, while lower sequenced need to wait more, but still they both, if they won't spend APs before thier full ammount will have thier max in the same time, so AP regeneration itself won't be changed. High sequence will only allow to you to spend all APs and to operate properly after that, while low sequence will make your character slower, or you'll need to keep your APs in second half, making your character "react slower".
So I'm also suggesting to combine it with APs required for running in RT.
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I'm talking about making RT more similar to TB, of couse it also requres AP spending on running, because it makes different builds acts really by different way in TB and RT
Your system for sequence would work really well if running spent aps. In that case low ap single shots could be worth something.
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I am against. It is just too complicated. More mechanisms = more bugs and exploits.
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Eh? This is pretty simple. And Rat explained it very well.
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I am against. It is just too complicated. More mechanisms = more bugs and exploits.
Not not if done well. More mechanisms also involves more options.
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Not not if done well. More mechanisms also involves more options.
We know how well are done things usually here and if you are willing to risk RT combat system completly broken for a month i think devs do not. ;-)
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If I got it right, low sequence and high sequence characters will have advantage over regular chars - low sequence char will spend less than half of his APs every time and high sequence char will try to keep his APs lower than half all the time. Doesnt seem too logical, but it can make things interesting
Speaking about perks, its not very relevant, they are going to be reworked soon.
What about changing sequence this way - sequence is derived from AGI and PE and affects AP regen ( so not max APs anymore )
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If I got it right, low sequence and high sequence characters will have advantage over regular chars - low sequence char will spend less than half of his APs every time and high sequence char will try to keep his APs lower than half all the time. Doesnt seem too logical, but it can make things interesting.
If you find interesting to spend only 1/2 of your AP all the time (if you're low sequenced), then yes, but I think a guy with the same ammount of AP, but high sequence, or even middle sequence will have 100% of thier AP and can use it properly, while low sequenced will have only 50% of thier AP, if they want to regen it with the same speed as high sequence.
But again, you need to spend APs on running, so low sequence will be always worse than average, and average worse than high. Of couse it also requires balancing, it can be even made from average (20%/20%/20%/etc) to high only, so with lowest possible sequence you'll have the same AP regeneration all the time, while than more sequence you'll have than faster you'll regen 1st half of APs and slower 2nd half, if current suggestion will be really so easy to exploit. But again, APs aren't regenerating when you doing an action, it means you'll need to wait everytime to keep your APs in 2nd half for slow sequenced characters, while high sequenced can spend all thier APs so work in 100%/50% = 2 times better at the begining.
If it was up to me, I'd use sequence to determine starting AP. So with low sequence one would only regen 2-3 AP when out of combat, when combat starts the AP regen to full at normal rate.
As someone said about that: you'll see guys punching each other to keep themselves in combat and have full APs.
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It could work, but it's hard to say without empiric tests.
If it was up to me, I'd use sequence to determine starting AP. So with low sequence one would only regen 2-3 AP when out of combat, when combat starts the AP regen to full at normal rate.
So a fastshot gunslinger can draw and fire before a miniguner can get those barels spining.
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I think after some simulations that sequence should work following way:
OOC ( out of combat ) everyone would be efficiently at max AP ( so it was true in original ), once combat is engaged, everyone except NPC or player who started it would begin to recieve AP from zero to their max. This first dose would be significaly faster than subsequent regeneration, and would be based on sequence.
This will emulate order of turns in TB system pretty well.
Another thing is AP per movement, it has to be implemented to make RT battles viable where currently only TB works ( so that you can exit in combat and NPCs, as well as get range advantage over melee NPCs and ranged NPCs/PCs with less AP than you have, because currently running away only negates AP regeneration which is same for anyone, so that you can't run further with more AP, and you can't force enemy to spend their AP by running away )
This might be for another thread, but it won't work without sequence.
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The problem is, that sequence is determined by agility and perception. At this moment, where many pvp builds and weapons are well balanced, we will have to erase all progress and start from scratch. And why? Because some statistic originally created to choose which side will start fight in encouters only (if i remember it well, it was not in cities.. there you chose that by your trigger or by conversation option), is obsolete in real time. No, there is a lot of others things to be balanced and i dont see any benefit from this.
The second thing is, that fonline is derived from fallout series. Potentialy new players know fallout mechanics, but this one would be something completely new they dont know. The whole result of developing this project is to maintain fallout mechanism but also balance them into MMORPG, result should have been compromise so new players should find all things familiar but old fonline players should be satisfied with changes that improves playability.
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The problem is, that sequence is determined by agility and perception.
In fact, its only 2x PE now. I was talking just about my idea, where sequence would be derived also from agility ( so people wont heavily favour perception while agility becomes less useful ).
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The second thing is, that fonline is derived from fallout series. Potentialy new players know fallout mechanics, but this one would be something completely new they dont know. The whole result of developing this project is to maintain fallout mechanism but also balance them into MMORPG, result should have been compromise so new players should find all things familiar but old fonline players should be satisfied with changes that improves playability.
Oh yeah, RT combat is so familiar to me from original Fallout!
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Oh yeah, RT combat is so familiar to me from original Fallout!
Read whole text first. The mechanism that you have some AP, you spend them and you cannot do anything more is same like in original Fallout.
BTW, how your sequence change will affect TB?
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BTW, how your sequence change will affect TB?
No how, because I don't want to change Sequence like "create something new", I just want to make it work the same way in RT like in TB, so... it won't be changed in TB, because it's already working there like it should be, it makes you to act 1st, if you have more sequence than other, in RT it's just human's reflexes.
About what I wanted to say: well.. I just said that just now, Sequence has no effect in RT, I'm trying to find a way to make it work the same way like in TB. If you don't like current suggestion, then it can be done by other way by starting from average to high sequence, to avoid exploiting or something with faster regen APs in 2nd half. So with lowest possible Seuqence you'll have the same AP regeneration as it is now, the same speed from start to end, with higher Sequence you'll restore faster at begin and slower in the end. Or opposite, low Sequence slow in the begin, faster in the end, high possible Sequence will make you regen APs like now.