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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: GaiusCesar on December 06, 2010, 07:54:03 pm
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Supermutants destroy PvP because they are cheap, can do instakill damage on the most frequented places in cities (entrances), where you dont have any chance to succesfully defend them, players with dual log dont need to control the leader and de facto, everyone with second computer is capable to use them as a powerfull secondary attack, so in fact, in every TC pvp, there is a huge threat that defending gang will be wipe out immediately. Current http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire-and-forget Fire and forget tactic is only helping players who cheat (dual or fast relog) and it si punishment of players that are playing regulary.
Combat often consist of situations, where in small maps, like Redding, South and Downtown entrace and adjacent places are zones of death. I dont see anything balanced on situation, where gang fully equiped enter area and is smashed up by teleport of 5 rockets mutants, that can fire at least twice before they are eliminated, but it means that victims are killed too. Fact is that supermutants use mainly huge teams, with more than 15 players they dont need it. There are often 15 supermutants during one combat.
So, my suggestion is very humble: Do something with this.
THANK YOU, Developers.
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I'm going to agree with this, 1 guy having the power of a small super army isn't right. maybe make it so that each supermutant takes up 3 or 4 follower slots?
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The amount of follower slots and other merc related stuff will probably soon get reworked.
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Army of mutant isn´t invencible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yboRnAP9n6g
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I am curious as to why you think supermutants are "cheap" if that refers to the price at all your crazy.
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Army of mutant isn´t invencible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yboRnAP9n6g
You miss the point. Problem is, where all of you stay at city spawn point or in rocket launcher shoot range near those spawn points. Then every mutants spawn is equal to very quick death without any possible chance to defend yourself.
Of course, if enemy supermutant is in city, or you are not at those spawn points, you can kill them easily by snipers, but this is not the topic about this thread.
I can imagine that there will be some solution of kind that you will be able to have only one supermutant, but in situation, where i.e. 5 enemies can use second dual log, there will be no limitation to those 5 players use 5 alts with 5 supermutants and strike very same like now. Again, numerous and cheating gangs would still have advance against small one and not cheating.
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Supermutants destroy PvP because they are cheap
Fixing economy will also fix Supermutant's problem, I think.
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Fixing economy will also fix Supermutant's problem, I think.
One question:
In which era there was not any caps bug or unbalance mechanism that ends in state where everyone or at least major gangs had zilions of caps on their accounts?
I cant remember even one. So i am very pessimistic in this.
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The era where bank interests were not activated.
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Fixing economy will also fix Supermutant's problem, I think.
The amount of follower slots and other merc related stuff will probably soon get reworked.
It's just not the slots or price. It's the fact that npcs got instant reflexes. I run past a window and cross mutant's LoS for 0,2 seconds, the mutie turns without any delay and shoots rocket.
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It s hard to fight with enemy if use supermutants on TC battles, even more if they enter 3mercs commanders 3x5=15 supermutants on grid and 15 players. Its their choice that they cant play normal PvP and they are afraid of loosing battle and must use that things . Anyway devs should use their imagination? and change something.
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I know the Master has died quite a long time ago, but, what has happened to Supermutants' good old racial pride? Muties have gone from total racism to letting humans use them as tanks. What would the Master say!?
F.E.V. Power! F.E.V. Power! F.E.V. Power!
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The era where bank interests were not activated.
The era where TC wasn't bugged.
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I know the Master has died quite a long time ago, but, what has happened to Supermutants' good old racial pride? Muties have gone from total racism to letting humans use them as tanks. What would the Master say!?
F.E.V. Power! F.E.V. Power! F.E.V. Power!
In 2238, the master isn't dead, even though the crater suggests the opposite. ;)
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Hmm, this topic reminds me one interesting thing that I saw in another Fonline server:
Every 21st lvl player, that is in the "Super mutants faction" could get one of two available super mutant skins and since they can't wear any armor, they get a bonuses to their stats equal to Combat Armor and Combat Armor MK2 depending on the type of skin. This equates the difference between the normal player and a player with a super mutant skin. Maybe we should do something similar to this on 2238?
On topic: ffs, what's the problem, you can go and buy mutie too!
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Graf you talking about you char can be a mutie?
I think it was good if is like in fallot tatics. In ther you can have more of 10 on EN and ST with mutie, have diferent perks, and you have more damage resistance. But you can take only one perk for 4 lvl´s and can wear only armors to mutie.
Soory for off-topic :-[
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This is off-topic.
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=14.0
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In 2238, the master isn't dead, even though the crater suggests the opposite. ;)
I had no idea about that, Surf. Is that information supposed to be public? Can I read it anywhere? I would love to catch up on that kind of details.
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I had no idea about that, Surf. Is that information supposed to be public? Can I read it anywhere? I would love to catch up on that kind of details.
The story is pretty much in flux, nothing is set in stone, but the Master being alive would be much better ;)
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On topic: ffs, what's the problem, you can go and buy mutie too!
Yes, we can! .. ehm :)
We play pvp because of fun, take equip, group team, enter city and fight.. if we win, it is the icing on the cake. But supermutants ruins this experience. Even we will be able to kill enemy, what kind of victory is that. One click from the world map? Come on. Its like orgasm without women, you can enjoy it once, twice, than it is boring. So i dont understand why those gangs frequently uses supermutants.
What kind of fun they have, if they kill their enemy in few seconds, instead of many minutes lenght battle. Look at some sport, like hockey. If one team dominate other by score 10:0, it is not entertaining as it could be if score would be 3:2 where winner team is loosing most of their match, but in last few minutes, they scored goals and at the end they won.
Also, in our team, we dual log only to transport chars to battlefield, we are not using second chars as a backup main battle characters or supermutants leader. I dont believe that any supermutant leader wait on world map over the city and waits for right moment to commit suicice during the TC. It is always dual logged char. And because there is no way how to eliminate it, only real solution is to change game mechanics somehow.
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This is off-topic.
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=14.0
omfg, Izual, your topic are LOCKED! What's the matter of redirecting to a different topic, where I can't write my opinion?
p.s. And wtf, why did you deleted my post, according to what I said above?
Graf you talking about you char can be a mutie?
I think it was good if is like in fallot tatics. In ther you can have more of 10 on EN and ST with mutie, have diferent perks, and you have more damage resistance. But you can take only one perk for 4 lvl´s and can wear only armors to mutie.
[offtop]Yep, I'm just saying that I saw that kind of thing already implemented on the one of the Fonline servers and wanna see this one
Oh, btw, being a mutie shouldn't give give any advantages to the SPECIAL, imho. Free armor is already enough[/offtop]
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Im already dead from 10 super mutants. We and my frieds in reno, the rougues attack with 5 guys, we kill all. Them come back again with more guys, i think +-10 we kill somes, and them run to up, nobody of us are dead, we will will again easy, in this time enter 2 guys with 10 super muties. i give one shoot and was killed liked all of my friends. Now i undersand your idea.
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AHuhaUHUAHa
Yeah ins't funny anymore :-[ dunno if was 10, maybe "freaking focking alot" of muties may discribe.
Suggestion: Make class "mutant" use 5 slot or somenthing like that, instead of 2 slot.
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AHuhaUHUAHa
Yeah ins't funny anymore :-[ dunno if was 10, maybe "freaking focking alot" of muties may discribe.
Suggestion: Make class "mutant" use 5 slot or somenthing like that, instead of 2 slot.
This will not solve the problem. In my country, we get netbook free if you buy lawn mower. Many people got old computer, laptop.. Look at the statistics. Rogues are mostly polish players, same like Chosen soldiers. They often use mutants, it is fact. And their nation populate wasteland mostly.. So even you will lower the number you need at one char, they will use 5 alts instead of 2 alts. Of course, if they fast relog (i dont tell they are doing this), they can in few seconds attack with second wave. Of course you will complicate this, but problem will not be solved.
I realy dont know, why there must be something like this proffesion. It does not help smaller gang agaisnt bigger, it only helps big PK gangs (who gave mutants order to not kill their mates, but everyone else) to kill everyone.
So whats the point?
I heard that Fortress is almost unaccesible during PK gangs player peak, because of supermutants waiting on the world map over that place.
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Of course this could solve the problem.
What? Are ou saying that the fact that they have 2 PC or 2 Notebook is simple to do dual log? This do not change ip by what i know.
Even if they use proxy, they will need to use 4 proxy to got 5 mutants by player. I don't think that is easy to play in 5 windows.
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Rogues are mostly polish players, same like Chosen soldiers.
Nope, it's like 50% Russian, 40% Polish and 10% others. While CS are 100% (I guess) Polish gang.
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Of course this could solve the problem.
What? Are ou saying that the fact that they have 2 PC or 2 Notebook is simple to do dual log? This do not change ip by what i know.
Even if they use proxy, they will need to use 4 proxy to got 5 mutants by player. I don't think that is easy to play in 5 windows.
Heh.. dont be naive. Do you realy think i am posting this n.1 suggestions and i am new player here. It is so easy to .... violate that rules. Better than ignore it is to accept that this kind of behaviour is here, devs cant do anything with this, so rather change game mechanics. There could still exist dogs, slaves.. but supermutant mercs? why?? just there is no reason why to have computer buddy.
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Still unbalanced?!!?!?!?!
I had over 4(?) months of break in FO.. and really .. in that whole period of time ... nobody tried .. to make .. well? Maybe a supermutants taking 2 of total slots that leader character has?!
4 men or 2 muties, simple wash & go.
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Make the supermuties react slowly, like in a Unity encounter.
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Make the supermuties react slowly, like in a Unity encounter.
Speech skill against mercs ^_^
Than more speech than more invisible you're for them when you enter location or they enter location. They are stupid NPCs, you know, you can use speech% to make them not shoot you for some time. It'll make impossible artillery use for muties, even minimal speech (5%) should give something like 1-2 seconds, then create a progression so if you have like 100% speech you'll have ~8-10 seconds to be invisible for mercs on current location when you enter it, or invisible for every merc that enters location where you're at already. However shooting mercs should remove this "invisibility" instantly, so it'll only make you escape/hide/get a position before die.
Also it can affect every other NPC on random encounters, depending on how bad is your reputation with current faction and how many of them there, so high speech will make encounter like now (very very very slow reaction), and low speech will force them attack instantly.
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Speech skill against mercs ^_^
Than more speech than more invisible you're for them when you enter location or they enter location. They are stupid NPCs, you know, you can use speech% to make them not shoot you for some time. It'll make impossible artillery use for muties, even minimal speech (5%) should give something like 1-2 seconds, then create a progression so if you have like 100% speech you'll have ~8-10 seconds to be invisible for mercs on current location when you enter it, or invisible for every merc that enters location where you're at already. However shooting mercs should remove this "invisibility" instantly, so it'll only make you escape/hide/get a position before die.
Also it can affect every other NPC on random encounters, depending on how bad is your reputation with current faction and how many of them there, so high speech will make encounter like now (very very very slow reaction), and low speech will force them attack instantly.
Brilliant idea!
With high speech you'll be talking their teeth in, while your teammate prepares himself for the combat. And with a Charisma check, you won't get attacked at all.
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So mercs would be payed to kill the enemy unless the enemy is too fucking good looking, a nice person, and knows how to talk smoothly? Even though the merc will never get caps from that person? Even though the merc would probably get killed by another enemy? How is that supposed to make sense?
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How is that supposed to make sense?
The same way as you will always hit at 95% chance if you got high weapon skill. In rpgs you throw sense in dumpster and resolve everything with dice roll.
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The same way as you will always hit at 95% chance if you got high weapon skill. In rpgs you throw sense in dumpster and resolve everything with dice roll.
exactly.
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The same way as you will always hit at 95% chance if you got high weapon skill.
Still makes more sense than that Speech & Charisma thing.
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So mercs would be payed to kill the enemy unless the enemy is too fucking good looking, a nice person, and knows how to talk smoothly? Even though the merc will never get caps from that person? Even though the merc would probably get killed by another enemy? How is that supposed to make sense?
It's making sense, if the speaker can convince the mercs that they're from the same faction, are the reinforcements, intimidate, confuse, humour them or pretend they've delivered the pizza to gain time.
Charisma isn't just pretty blue eyes, you know?
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It's making sense, if the speaker can convince the mercs that they're from the same faction, are the reinforcements, intimidate, confuse, humour them or pretend they've delivered the pizza to gain time.
Charisma isn't just pretty blue eyes, you know?
Then we should be able to apply this on players too. What's the difference between succesfully shooting someone or succefully convincing someone in terms of rpg gameplay? They are both just dice rolls.
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Then we should be able to apply this on players too. What's the difference between succesfully shooting someone or succefully convincing someone in terms of rpg gameplay? They are both just dice rolls.
here we go with "Parle'" again :P
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It's making sense, if the speaker can convince the mercs that they're from the same faction, are the reinforcements, intimidate, confuse, humour them or pretend they've delivered the pizza to gain time.
Charisma isn't just pretty blue eyes, you know?
Do you really believe that makes sense?
-I'm gonna kill you!
-Don't shoot pal, I'm from the same faction that hired you :)
-Oh, sorry, I didn't know. Heh, I'm really sorry, it won't happen again.
-*Bursts the merc's leader dead* Hey! It's fine! :D
-But, what was that?
-Oh, nothing, just some friendly fire! *shoots another enemy*
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Do you really believe that makes sense?
Do you really believe that it doesn't? It's psychological warfare.
-I'm gonna kill you!
-Don't shoot pal, I'm from the same faction that hired you :)
-Oh, sorry, I didn't know. Heh, I'm really sorry, it won't happen again.
-*Bursts the merc's leader dead* Hey! It's fine! :D
-But, what was that?
-Oh, nothing, just some friendly fire! *shoots another enemy*
Rather:
-I'm gonna kill you!
-All hail Master!/We bring ammo!/Behind you!
-All hail Master!...Hey, why are you running? (loses 3 seconds)/Oh yea...Umm, what is the password?(loses 7 seconds)/What? There's nobo... HEY!(loses 2 seconds)
-*plasmaeing merc's leader head* Bad day, focker!/Behind you, guys!(confuse them further)/You bastard robbed my money!(lack of civil courage from other mercs)
-*die, being confused*
That's automatical triggered sequence based on Speech. Initially, as long as noone is hostile, this could be viewed as a skill-based Parler for one or a party in tow.
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Do you really believe that it doesn't? It's psychological warfare.
Rather:
-I'm gonna kill you!
-All hail Master!/We bring ammo!/Behind you!
-All hail Master!...Hey, why are you running? (loses 3 seconds)/Oh yea...Umm, what is the password?(loses 7 seconds)/What? There's nobo... HEY!(loses 2 seconds)
-*plasmaeing merc's leader head* Bad day, focker!/Behind you, guys!(confuse them further)/You bastard robbed my money!(lack of civil courage from other mercs)
-*die, being confused*
That's automatical triggered sequence based on Speech. Initially, as long as noone is hostile, this could be viewed as a skill-based Parler for one or a party in tow.
Nope. Still don't believe it makes sense. Mutants' tendency to have low intelligence is the only small think that could tell me that idea makes sense... But I guess that at some point, someone would shot at that dumb mutant and tell him who to shoot. Alright, that would give you one or two seconds, but I do not see it as a reason to start creating Speech alts.
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Do you really believe that it doesn't? It's psychological warfare.
Rather:
-I'm gonna kill you!
-All hail Master!/We bring ammo!/Behind you!
-All hail Master!...Hey, why are you running? (loses 3 seconds)/Oh yea...Umm, what is the password?(loses 7 seconds)/What? There's nobo... HEY!(loses 2 seconds)
-*plasmaeing merc's leader head* Bad day, focker!/Behind you, guys!(confuse them further)/You bastard robbed my money!(lack of civil courage from other mercs)
-*die, being confused*
That's automatical triggered sequence based on Speech. Initially, as long as noone is hostile, this could be viewed as a skill-based Parler for one or a party in tow.
What if its a psycho without faction and willing to kill everything and everyone? Why the would someone like that listen to some dumbass talking over possible bullets being sprayed everywhere about random nonsense?
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What if its a psycho without faction and willing to kill everything and everyone? Why the would someone like that listen to some dumbass talking over possible bullets being sprayed everywhere about random nonsense?
Hmm.. to prevent from instant grid killing?
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Hmm.. to prevent from instant grid killing?
That does not answer my question in the slightest...
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Why the would someone like that listen to some dumbass talking over possible bullets being sprayed everywhere about random nonsense?
Hmm.. to prevent from instant grid killing?
I mean... in in-game terms, there's no real life logic or something.
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What if its a psycho without faction and willing to kill everything and everyone? Why the would someone like that listen to some dumbass talking over possible bullets being sprayed everywhere about random nonsense?
We're talking about NPCs, the only living beings in Wasteland who wouldn't kill without a reason. They can be tricked.
Of course, it won't work out on underage SHOOTAN ON SITE playerkiller.
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We're talking about NPCs, the only living beings in Wasteland who wouldn't kill without a reason. They can be tricked.
Of course, it won't work out on underage SHOOTAN ON SITE playerkiller.
Stop that stuff in Bold. It's ridiculous how you and others have protrayed every single "pk" as a child, complete nonsense and you know it, your just troling.
but yes... npcs... this would totaly destroy the merc leader build totally, after such thing you will almost never see another one ever :(.
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Stop that stuff in Bold. It's ridiculous how you and others have protrayed every single "pk" as a child, complete nonsense and you know it, your just troling.
Yea, excuse me then. IMHO, it's still a childish, troll-like behaviour
but yes... npcs... this would totaly destroy the merc leader build totally, after such thing you will almost never see another one ever :(.
Why is that?
Heavy armed Supermutants will be easily deceived than more intelligent, but lightly equipped mercenaries - firepower will be balanced out by intelligence, Speech will be worth to spend some skillpoints upon and supermuties will require a intelligent leader, instead of being a gridcamping annoyance.
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What if its a psycho without faction and willing to kill everything and everyone? Why the would someone like that listen to some dumbass talking over possible bullets being sprayed everywhere about random nonsense?
Because the one trying to talk is simply so convincing, that's what high speech is all about. It doesn't matter what the characters are talking about or if it makes sense, it's rpg the chars take care of the details we just order them to do stuff. With 300 speech your char should be able to convince low cha and speech builds to shoot themselves. Use loudspeaker for area effect ::)
I'm partially fooling around but this is how rpgs work: you roll a dice using your offensive skills versus enemy's defensive skills. In combat it's your damage output and accuracy vs enemy's ac and defensive numbers. So when it comes to convincing someone it's their speech, charisma and intelligence vs yours. Rpg rules are horrible settings for multiplayer but if steal, sneak and weapons skills work that way, so should every skill speech included. It's skill point investmen as any and should pay off.
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Why is that?
Heavy armed Supermutants will be easily deceived than more intelligent, but lightly equipped mercenaries - firepower will be balanced out by intelligence, Speech will be worth to spend some skillpoints upon and supermuties will require a intelligent leader, instead of being a gridcamping annoyance.
So humans would be less easily fooled then? I guess that's ok compromise. But I still don't like it.
Because the one trying to talk is simply so convincing, that's what high speech is all about. It doesn't matter what the characters are talking about or if it makes sense, it's rpg the chars take care of the details we just order them to do stuff. With 300 speech your char should be able to convince low cha and speech builds to shoot themselves. Use loudspeaker for area effect ::)
I'm partially fooling around but this is how rpgs work: you roll a dice using your offensive skills versus enemy's defensive skills. In combat it's your damage output and accuracy vs enemy's ac and defensive numbers. So when it comes to convincing someone it's their speech, charisma and intelligence vs yours. Rpg rules are horrible settings for multiplayer but if steal, sneak and weapons skills work that way, so should every skill speech included. It's skill point investmen as any and should pay off.
But this game has a few factors that are totally unrelated to RPG elements considering of course Real Time combat, taking cover and waiting for aps to recharge, and being able to outwit your opponent.
but you do have a point, but this is the way the game is and how it's going to be so we just have to deal with it and have as much fun and do as much betatesting as we can for it. But like I've said, I simply don't see how people are going to accept speech skill for this use.
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But this game has a few factors that are totally unrelated to RPG elements considering of course Real Time combat, taking cover and waiting for aps to recharge, and being able to outwit your opponent.
These skill factors only apply when builds and equipment are equal. A stronger builds can simply wtfpwn every weaker build no matter how much they take cover and watch their ap regen.
But like I've said, I simply don't see how people are going to accept speech skill for this use
They already accept that their chars do the aiming, sneaking, spotting, stealing, haggling and encounter travelling for us. So why not speaking too? Maybe you can't convince other players but your char can convince other player's chars. This just shows how unfit rpg elements are for multiplayer. If you take too much control away from players, and give it to the chars the playing experience starts to suffer.