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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: avv on November 29, 2010, 03:41:46 pm
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Tl;dr: the game lacks, goal -> it needs one.
The game lacks the slightest goal to reach. You could say that the goal is to level up and hoard stuff, but it isn't because nothing happens if you don't try to achieve them. To prove that there's absolutely no goal is easy: just start the game, log in and see what happens: your char is standing somewhere and if you check back ten days later, nothing has changed. Basically every other game would have some notion that you should do something if you didn't do something for a while. An arrow showing direction, a "game over" message or "you got 5 minutes to do x or else...".
Why's it problematic that there's no goal and it's a sandbox world? Because then it's all the same what world it is. If we don't need to do anything but can do pretty much everything, it's no longer fallout world. It's just a world with fallout graphics and the rpg part in mmorpg fails. I guess the game part fails aswell because you can't lose or win, which is typical in games.
So why would we need a goal? Because if there was something players at least had to do or they could not operate in the game, devs could manipulate our gaming style to match how we should behave in wasteland. I dare to say that most players do not play the way devs had planned, or at least do not act in the game world a real fallout wastelander would act.
An example for a simple goal would be water. If you don't drink, you'll die. If you die in dehydration and respawn, you can't craft, use skills or fight. Where'd you get water? From npc factions or unguarded towns. To get water from guarded towns, you'd need good rep there. The ways to get rep is pretty stupid right now but it can be changed. It should be some favours that the players belonging to that npc faction may benefit. To get water from unsafe towns, you'd have to control the pump or pay a fee to the ones who control it. Now we'd have a goal. If you don't achieve it, you are punished by not getting to participate in every day gaming. You achieve the goal by either playing along with the rules of npc factions or having the firepower or caps to get it.
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For some players the whole "drop you in this dangerous world with nothing" concept has some appeal - the same appeal that draws the same players to games such as Dwarf Fortress and Wurm. They believe that by undergoing the mind-numbing torture required to master these games they reach a new level of badass that only the fattest of fifth-graders in gym class can aspire to.
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I agree, I had discovered the game few days ago and already played 32 hours. Today I didn't play a bit. Why? Because I felt like I'm not achieving anything other than level. I hit lvl 5 or 6, but in rest nothing. I can only kill few in a battle and it only happens when I join guards vs bandits or else I'll be dead as one spray can take you out. SO pretty much what i do is : Die, respawn, get another gun, die again. 2 days ago I had like 3-4 people follow me, we spawned just to get killed by some guy with weird name, we got minigunned . That's all that I do, tbh it's boring with no goal and especially when you don't advance at all. There's nothing to do other than kill npc's even at that it takes ages to be good at .
Also I did try collecting lots of items, but before I reach a town I usually die and lose em' all and when I reach to sell there's nothing valueblae to exchange for . Plus people won't buy junk as I expected at first.
PS : I love the fallout 2 atmoshpere more than fallout 3 and new vegas. That's why I even played 32 hours.. and i'll still do but rarely(talking about FOnline), because there's no GOAL. I mean It would had been so much more better if it had half of the single player in it. Quests etc etc.
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There will be goals. Advancing in your faction, helping your faction control certain places, domination mode ... etc.
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Sounds great. THanks for the headsup :) :-* :-*
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For now, people have to "imagine" (damn, that sounds so Role Play ! :P ) they have a goal. It's not that easy because of the game mechanics, the lack of possible interactions...
More possibilities and more content would help, I agree.
Your suggestion about water (even if it had been already suggested) is really good, avv, it would bring a lot more fun, consistency and realism in the Wasteland.
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There will be goals. Advancing in your faction, helping your faction control certain places, domination mode ... etc.
But what about guys like me that never get in faction?
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But what about guys like me that never get in faction?
They suffer because they are playing "faction mod" of FOnline.
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They suffer because they are playing "faction mod" of FOnline.
But they don't want suffer.
They always wanted to be in faction, but everyone kick them out for some reason.
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There will be goals. Advancing in your faction, helping your faction control certain places, domination mode ... etc.
What if player doesn't participate in this? Npc faction rank could be compared to tc: it has some effects if you do it, but nothing happens if you don't do it. The goal I'm talking about here is something everybody had to do at least, so that he couldn't just hang around in his base forever.
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What if player doesn't participate in this?
What if playing doesn't participate in FOnline at all? Let's make the game fun for everyone, not only people who play FOnline.
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What if playing doesn't participate in FOnline at all? Let's make the game fun for everyone, not only people who play FOnline.
Well some people prefer to be lone wolfers.. and since the goals would be only if you're in a faction it still doesn't please everyone as they'd still not have a goal.
Well they're new goal would be to get in a faction and from there do other goals lol
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This game is very hard for loners. Even if not in a big faction, a small group of friends helps allot.
Common goal is to become the most feared PK of the land :D
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lol you're in a post-nuclear wasteland, and you wanna be lonely?
:S
this is so... so depressing...
:'( :'( :'(
Im gonna find a deathclaw and end with my fonline life....
excuse me...
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They suffer because they are playing "faction mod" of FOnline.
This was just the working title of the game when it started and surpassed it long ago.
It is possible to be a loner, more fun and more difficult, but it gets boring too. :)
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This game is very hard for loners. Even if not in a big faction, a small group of friends helps allot.
Hard how? If there's no goal, it can't be hard or easy.
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make your faction most powerful on wasteland ;]
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make your faction most powerful on wasteland ;]
And how do you measure power without any noticable outcomes of your actions?
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And how do you measure power without any noticable outcomes of your actions?
Indeed. Besides, trying to reach gang supremacy is only your & your gang members' personal goal because the rest of the wasteland isn't after it.
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Hard how? If there's no goal, it can't be hard or easy.
Everyones initial goal is to level up and get some cash to supply yourself with a base, car, ect. There are goals, they are just not laid out for you. You, and everyone playing sets their own personal goals based on what they want to do with the game. And just about everything is harder alone.. Try going to BH or mine some HQ ores as a loner. If you live it's only bc you got lucky and a group wasn't there.
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i drop coins at the poor kids spot in junktown, when im dun killin junktown poser fuks.
also, it is a goul to straighten out all the weak pussy bullshit. its hard to do, when power wants to say "i did it first"
sokay, im sure that... in anuther life, i must have voted you this position. DO BETER!
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Survival.... isnt enough goal? :S?
survival at all coast..... that means, make friends or cheat people, be honest or a liar, steal or craft and sell..... whatever but survive and stay alive.... ::)
8) you got bars, chicks, guns, cars....and lots of alcohol..... what else do you need? 8)
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But what about guys like me that never get in faction?
What about guys that join NPC factions, i.e., level 3 doctors, small gunsmiths, and armorers?
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Everyones initial goal is to level up and get some cash to supply yourself with a base, car, ect. There are goals, they are just not laid out for you.
If they aren't laid out for us, then they aren't goals at all. Goal is something that you know you need to achieve the moment you step ingame. If you don't achieve the goal, you get punished, if you do there's a reward. I admit that hoarding possessions at the beginning of the game is a starting goal for basically everyone, but it's not a clear goal since you don't get punished from not gathering stuff and levelling. There's no "Level & Equipment Police" which raids people's tents to check out their advancement and make arrests from slow process.
Besides, even if gathering & levelling was the goal according to all info sources, it still doesn't work properly because neither activites do not guide our playstyles to match how wastelanders live. Hoarding stuff actually results in completely retarded behaviour because players value items more than their lives.
Survival.... isnt enough goal? :S?
We can't die permanently so we always survive.
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And how do you measure power without any noticable outcomes of your actions?
there is several ways
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We can't die permanently so we always survive.
you can "choose" stop playing, and put a bullet on your game's head (i mean ~deleteself and uninstall and all that).... that's like death
"choose"
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Well, water would just be another "upkeep", its not really a goal. - I'm a fan of hardcore mode, so its not that I don't like the idea. - A goal in that area would more be to control a reservoir, or water caravan, or something like that.
A goal would be more like: Become the highest rank in the BoS (or any other faction) or capture and control X for BoS (or any other faction).
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Well, water would just be another "upkeep", its not really a goal. - I'm a fan of hardcore mode, so its not that I don't like the idea. - A goal in that area would more be to control a reservoir, or water caravan, or something like that.
Another upkeep? More like first. But yeah it wouldn't be the actual goal, the goal would be how to get that water which could exactly be about having access to a water pump somehow. If there was at least one thing players had to do, there would be less time for foolish activity like griefing in towns or undetermined goofing around. Gotta keep the players at their toes.
A goal would be more like: Become the highest rank in the BoS (or any other faction) or capture and control X for BoS (or any other faction).
Yes this is also a goal. However the problem here is that players don't have to do this. There's no "or else..." consequence like there is if you don't have access to water. So it gives an option for griefing/loitering and activity that has nothing to do with fallout.
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I dont like that vision of mandatory stuff. We dont need implicitly set goals. Everyone can set goals for himself. Like making a tent, buying a base or car, shooting 1000 bluesuits. There are lots of thing which you can strife for ad which brings u some profit and makes playing in wasteland more comfortable.
Even though more ingame content and features are always welcomed. :-)
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Another upkeep? More like first. But yeah it wouldn't be the actual goal, the goal would be how to get that water which could exactly be about having access to a water pump somehow. If there was at least one thing players had to do, there would be less time for foolish activity like griefing in towns or undetermined goofing around. Gotta keep the players at their toes.
Yes. Guns, Ammo, Armour.
Having a goal which is to secure water supply is the same thing as fighting to ensure your supply of those too (which you will have to after the next wipe)
Yes this is also a goal. However the problem here is that players don't have to do this. There's no "or else..." consequence like there is if you don't have access to water. So it gives an option for griefing/loitering and activity that has nothing to do with fallout.
Goals aren't what people have to do, those are requirements. Goals are what people want to achieve.
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its easy to survive with out lieing or stealing.
people who steal = weak people.
here is a goal-BE MOOR SOCIAL in game....
ya.... everytime their is a crowd of people at ncr, they just all hudel around eachother like ...well like creepy f.a.g's, and they try to sneak steel one anuther until it breaks out into a simpel gun shot, and the ncr are majer pussys when it comes to fighting so they will flipp out for sure, and then their goes everyone at ncr. not a word of good joke, not evin a chuck norris sputer, how the fuck could a game go on this long, with no chuck norris chat. with dry chat to start with i mean, get it?
and whats up with all you fucking f.a.gs on channel 0;
ok, youre verry imature and board? also you verry lame? I get it ok? stfu already! get the hell of youre computer and watch nick toons, that is a radiio, we could all talk about 1,000 things with out EVER bringing up youre fucking shrinkeled nasty cock!
god damn. really. you should be sad with youreself; -for 'EVER' bringing up the shit you do on that radio. its not funny. its not smart. not cleaver, not originel, its bin dune, it shouldnt be dun, infact the label on game im thinking is MA right? so get the fuck off it. that is, if you cant handel "TRYING" to be adult for a fucking topic on the radio. f'king christe you let humans down.
its just"F.A.G" ok? i show hella people this game when they over to smoke and you know what they say about youre shit on 0?
-passes out film acter guild awards to all the f.a.g's.
"what the fuck is rong with kids these days?" -its their reverend leaders.
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Could you please translate this post to be readable for normal human beings, Ghostiez?
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ghostiez is a troll and he does it well.
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Maybe encourage more roleplay?
I wouldn't mind. :D
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ghostiez is a troll and he does it well.
....so i was about to play the game when this poped in my head...
i searched for it, i know i have seen a discription of troll somewear on these forums, however... i can not re find it.
so....what is a troll ? ???
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....so i was about to play the game when this poped in my head...
i searched for it, i know i have seen a discription of troll somewear on these forums, however... i can not re find it.
so....what is a troll ? ???
An ass hole.
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An ass hole.
No, no. A troll is someone who confuses idiots. Keep it up ghostiez, good job. Anyway, what goals does someone in an NPC faction have?
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so...you are saying that i confused some idiots.... just to translate idiot
idiot; -someone who suports a faction or deity or president who is ill equipt to serve his contry or people.
what i get from that, or what im saying is, it is translated to somone who dosent know who they are suporteing with the big picture... eh, yeah... dig?
feel almost 90% on this
check it
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Well, it's not like anyone cares about English. You confuse stupid people, so keep it coming.
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ok.....personel goal* do not post in goal forum sugjestions....shiit*
goal!
id give you a metal for helpful hints on channel 0.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
and who ever was give the hint about hides or ...well what ever was going on
my radio was just on floor so i didnt get the chat in box, but anywayz
YOURE VERRY HELPFUL!
"oops, this was sugjestion"*remove
cheers:
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No, no. A troll is someone who confuses idiots. Keep it up ghostiez, good job. Anyway, what goals does someone in an NPC faction have?
None .... yet
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(I think ghostiez is on drugs, look at this last post :-\)
So, I suppose for the next wipe we will have Domination mode and new crafting system with new worbenches, which will make people come back to town to be able to get high tier stuff, right ?
Yeah, that's pretty good.
But, like avv says, I think players should have an other "goal" ingame than just collect stuff and "control" an area. I mean a reason to do such things.
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(I think ghostiez is on drugs, look at this last post :-\)
So, I suppose for the next wipe we will have Domination mode and new crafting system with new worbenches, which will make people come back to town to be able to get high tier stuff, right ?
Domination is prolly like hinkley with rewards. Not bad. Probably keeps some players busy. However item worshipping follows the pattern: you fight for items so that you can fight more. That kind of pattern would make sense if there was a punishment from choosing not to fight. It makes sense in fps games where you unlock better equipment while fighting but that's obvious since not fighting is out of question. In fonline there's other things than just shooting.
I think players should have an other "goal" ingame than just collect stuff and "control" an area. I mean a reason to do such things.
The best reason to do things could be "so that you stay alive". Basically everything should be related to that because what else does a desperate wastelander desire? Right now you stay alive by standing in your tent and that's bad for the flow of the game. Players must be challenged and poked to keep them motivated and active. So at very least every player should face the challenge of finding a water supply to maintain their living.
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Domination and "more stuff" for factions/gangs sounds ultra cool but it aims only at factions (FOnline shouldn't be only faction based game)
What are the other options for "end game" or "goal" in mmo's? (Take in mind that we're dealing with Sandbox mmo, not some themepark one)
IMHO:
-More "instances" with randomly respawning items and things which are crucial for some crafting recipes. Ie. shitloads of parts from 5-6 very hard instances to create Power Armor. People will actually try to achieve it, despite the fact that they will become primary target on the battlefield :D Grind for it - Achieve it. That's the way most modern MMO works. More or less grind is a time killer but it keeps community happy after reaching certain point.
-More Toon customization options (Which might come with 3d changes. Ie. tatoos/hairstyles/clothes which will aid RP'ers/bigger diversity in armors&weapons) and more fluffy stuff (like working casinos/minigames and so on)
-Housing/having a base of operations/player cities + much customization options for those. People playing sandbox mmo love that. Just look at ol' good Ultima Online and player suggestions on major mmo boards.
-Deeper PvP. Maybe crouching and proning like in tactics? That could change a lot of stuff. Furthermore - More "specialization" classes which are good for something and bad for something. Like paper stone and scissors. You might be a stone and work nice for scissors, while paper will still have no problem to fuck you up.
It works way better than "I have this and that and now I can own everyone with same chance of success."
Also - adding more player levels could enhance gameplay a little. More perks - more diversity.
-"Moar" crafting classes. Eg. mechanic which can use grinded/scavanged stuff to create new machines(I know, it's stupid but you might come to some conclusion what Cheetah have in mind, lol ;P) or guy who can upgrade your weapon with special mods(Bigger clip size etc.)
Speaking generally - more things to do you have in sandbox mmo - more goals you will find :P Those might be unrealistic, but crucial for gameplay experience. People just have to learn that gameplay don't come in pair with "reality". Especially in MMO's.
And there is much more possibilities. Thing is - It's a sandbox MMO. You have to make goals for yourself (like having a shelter with shitloads of stuff or being the most renowned and powerful lonewolf PK around wastes) unlike in Themepark mmo's where everyone share the same goal - Advance and acquire better stuff for your character to be better/acquire more fluff items for RP. That's why themepark mmo's HAVE to be updated every few months. Adding new content gives it playerbase more stuff to do.
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And there is much more possibilities. Thing is - It's a sandbox MMO.
It's also a sandbox game set in fallout world. In wasteland your basic necessities aren't automatically satisfied like they would be if you were some fantasy world hero or scifi space ship pilot. If that is the case, the game starts to lack credibility when it comes to the world its placed. If players do not feel the wasteland, it's all the same what world we play in. What difference would it make whether we lived in another galaxy, azeroth or wasteland if we still share the same goals of levelling and getting stuff?
Moreover the point here isn't necessarily to discuss the end game goal but to discuss an inital and constant requirement or goal mandatory for everyone. Why mandatory? Because it would force players to do at least something. If the requirement was water, It would be up to devs how players got water. This way they could guide players to act more like real wastelanders and create an illusion of role playing because players would be after rational desires related to wasteland life. Once player has the water, he can do whatever he wants provided he maintains his water supply.
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This is what we did with the crafting, people just complained and things are being reversed all over the place.
Forcing people into doing things isn't the answer.
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This is what we did with the crafting, people just complained and things are being reversed all over the place.
That's because pvp dudes got pissed because they couldn't pvp enough since crafting CA and avenger took so long. Besides, nothing was forced even back in those times. Nothing happened if player chose not to craft. Forcing means that something bad happens if you don't take action. Think of it as a forest fire that you have to keep escaping.
Forcing people into doing things isn't the answer.
Alright not forcing but encouraging.
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Even if it was just the PvPers, its pointless forcing people to do what they don't want to do.
It would work if it were optional though. To use two FNV examples, you could opt in to a hardcore mode, which would mean you always gain X% extra xp, or create a system similar to being well rested, so whenever you were "well hydrated" you would gain X% extra xp. This way you create a reason to fight, or run a water pumping station (or if you extend it to eating , why you would run a farm) and those that have no interest in it could ignore it withouth losing anything.
Still, these things are not goals :P
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Even if it was just the PvPers, its pointless forcing people to do what they don't want to do.
But some players just want to fuck with the world or achieve their personal goals through shady gaming styles. Most players want to get along in this game. So far it hasn't mattered much what it takes to do good, as long as its not unbearably boring. Crafting wasn't particularly exciting (however it can be if implemented right), that's why it was scorned. Farming encounters is moderately exciting and pretty damn necessary when it comes to amassing stuff, it's also somewhat rational when it comes to fallout world. That's an example what necessary features should be like: exciting and related to the gaming world's background story. When players use these features, it starts to look like they are part of the world and role playing without wanting it or not.
So if everyone had to have water, it'd fit both requirements of a good feature. If it was implemented well, it'd be exciting and automatically it would fit the background story. In addition you devs could manipulate the water output so that players playing the game in the wrong way from your point of view could not get access to water.
It would work if it were optional though. To use two FNV examples, you could opt in to a hardcore mode, which would mean you always gain X% extra xp, or create a system similar to being well rested, so whenever you were "well hydrated" you would gain X% extra xp. This way you create a reason to fight, or run a water pumping station (or if you extend it to eating , why you would run a farm) and those that have no interest in it could ignore it withouth losing anything.
It could work like this except additional xp isn't really necessary. I brought up the water idea because it suited as an example about constant requirement for everyone. If it was only optional, it wouldn't be strong enough encouragement for players to play the game how you devs want it to be played. I mean I suppose you wish players to play fonline in a way that it looks like they were wastelanders and after wasteland related goals.
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We should follow the path EVE Online did. No clearly specified goal but lots of things to do. Epic sandbox game.
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We should follow the path EVE Online did. No clearly specified goal but lots of things to do. Epic sandbox game.
I agree.
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We should follow the path EVE Online did. No clearly specified goal but lots of things to do. Epic sandbox game.
By all means. However you gotta keep in mind that we're not playing in distant future as some space ship pilots. Our chars start from scratch as wasteland beggars with rather differend initial desires. You can suit lots of things to do with constant requirement like water together. If you manage to uphold a constant water supply, you're free to do whatever you want. For example if you take over redding and get access to its water pump, you are free to play whatever role you want. But if you work for vault city and get your water from them, you aren't allowed to play the role of raider because that'd upset VC and they would cut off your access to water.