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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Closed suggestions => Topic started by: Nyan on January 21, 2010, 01:17:01 pm
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Dear developers.
Stealing used to be so much fun. I know there were MANY issues with it being abused and exploited. Last time I played was few months ago and seeing what happened to this marvelous profession makes me sad. I remember times when playing as any character was fun and you could make a living. Being a doc, scientist or even thief was profitable. What I see now is that people with big guns rule the wastelands and making a non-combat build is like signing a document which says 'I don't want to have fun playing this game. I just want to be a tool and get killed by first met overpowered stranger.'. I know that people bawwed much about being robbed, but look at it from the other side. Someone with 10mm pistol and 100% in small guns can kill me in few shots and take ALL my belongings. So why my non-combat character can have some useful skills too?
tl;dr - I'm currently at 258 stealing level which is almost 300 and to remind you 300 is max. And at this level I can barely steal anything, am noticed by guards and lose my reputation permanently. Now lets take a fighting character with 258 small guns, big guns or even melee can rip and tear me in half a second. Think about it ladies and gentleman. Don't make this great game a shooter only game, make it a rpg like it always ought to be.
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You must doing something wrong? I saw last time a thief who was stealing 2h non-stop and nobody caught him.
And to steal something from someone on wasteland is normally harder than just kill him I think :P Nobody will let you close ^^
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when people are in PEACEFUL towns... and their items get stolen.... you know the answer, and i dont see any good in thiefs. because a person who get always PKed in towns and hes items get always stolen in peaceful towns, its just too much for him...
EDIT: and yeah i dont think stealing is nerfed, its just "changed".
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Stealing is a useless skill right now. Even at 300%+pickpocket perk, you get cought very often, you can steal minigun after minigun, and than you get cought on stealing a stimpack. Karma -1600 and you're out of town. It is useless pretty much, mainly due to karma system now.
Beside, all you need to do to avoide being stolen form ... is move away, that easy. It's funny when people whine, because they can't pay attention to their chars.
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It's reputation system. We don't use karma.
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Thank you for correcting. It would be good if reputation would be returning to some "town entry level" like +50 rep a day if you didn't do anything that day.
Up to like -1500 so you'd be just on the edge, but you could enter the town.
I got -1600 on one of my chars for killing junktown patrols, now I can't enter the city. Blah.
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It would be good if reputation would be returning to some "town entry level" like +50 rep a day if you didn't do anything that day.
We really need something like this.. :( I'm just doing slalom on the world map not to get insta-killed by BoS, Enc., Mutants or something like that, just for taking profession.
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Thank you for correcting. It would be good if reputation would be returning to some "town entry level" like +50 rep a day if you didn't do anything that day.
Up to like -1500 so you'd be just on the edge, but you could enter the town.
I got -1600 on one of my chars for killing junktown patrols, now I can't enter the city. Blah.
rep grow per day? thats a great idea, so little but so good! :D
Edit: forgot to add, if that system would be added, id like it to stay from minus to 0, no +++ growing. as 0 is max limit to "per day growing" reputation.
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Aye for reputation regain. That's a brilliant idea. Or maybe some daily little quests to regain some rep.
Also, dear devs - you should give us thieves the opportunity to not be noticed by guards, and only that, at some level of stealing. It's preposterous in this way it is now. Don't make us uber at 100% like few months ago, it can be even at 250%. Because something HAVE TO be done with that issue, and leveling up as a thief to this level is already challenging and very hard, so it would be fair.
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The problem is that - sooner or later - a really big bunch of thiefs will float around in guarded towns and we have the same situation again, like before. And this really was not cool.
We have plans for improving the thief's daily business, which is not based on swarming other players in guarded towns and make them run around without break. So keep stunned.
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The problem last time was that you could make first level with outdoorsman only, gain 103 steal with good build and rob just about anyone without being captured. If you make it that safe steal level is above 200 i guarantee there won't be so many thieves as back then. Also that is our only way to survive, don't you guys see that? In not safe towns you can just shoot us dead without consequences, we have no chance there. In safe towns we have bigger chances to steal and you cannot shoot us. It's really fair game. You can make it harder to steal items like in the old days, make the cooldown bigger whatever, but this guard thing and reputation on this high level is unfair.
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Like I said, we have some plans for thiefs. Even if we set some minimum % for success, it wouldn't help anything. I can make a 200% stealing character in very short time with doing some quests + grinding.
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Ok, thanks for everything. I'll be waiting for updates
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Like I said, we have some plans for thiefs. Even if we set some minimum % for success, it wouldn't help anything. I can make a 200% stealing character in very short time with doing some quests + grinding.
Yeah, stealing characters tend to be alts. Nobody would consider 'maining' a thief. I think it's because of how touchy a subject PvP thieving is.
My own suggestion would be to make all containers in towns have items and occasionally respawn their contents if emptied. However, if you're not a good enough thief people will yell/eventually attack you. If your main guy is a thief, you've got a constantly respawning source of income. Better items spawn in richer towns, but are also harder to steal.
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Yes, we have similar like this in mind. But not container only. Can't say much about it right now, because it's still in the concept phase.
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I know it's a bad place to ask, but don't wanna create new topics. How does stealing work now? I want to know some numbers, because there is no data on wiki yet. In which situation the item is not stolen and guards notice that, what skills/attributes does it involve, what's the % chance etc.
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I think stealing itself is OK as it is (it should be hard, because you can do it naked and empty and you don't risk anything except reputation). It's reputation system that needs improvements, not stealing.
The problem is, every thief is doomed from the start - (s)he will be killed on sight in every town sooner or later. Personally I think reputation should regenerate slowly - very slowly, like 2 points / game day (200 points / 5 real days). It would force thieves to move from town to town and not steal 24h/day in one town, but their fate wouldn't be to be killed on sight in every single town sooner or later. Also reputation penalties for faction membership (like Vault City, Raiders) should not regenerate as long as you are in the faction (but it would start regenerating if you leave the faction).
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ok, seriously what is going on? I got -300 reputation for one thievery act. One. -300. That's insane.
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I think stealing itself is OK as it is (it should be hard, because you can do it naked and empty and you don't risk anything except reputation). It's reputation system that needs improvements, not stealing.
The problem is, every thief is doomed from the start - (s)he will be killed on sight in every town sooner or later. Personally I think reputation should regenerate slowly - very slowly, like 2 points / game day (200 points / 5 real days). It would force thieves to move from town to town and not steal 24h/day in one town, but their fate wouldn't be to be killed on sight in every single town sooner or later. Also reputation penalties for faction membership (like Vault City, Raiders) should not regenerate as long as you are in the faction (but it would start regenerating if you leave the faction).
I love this, this should be like that!
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ok, seriously what is going on? I got -300 reputation for one thievery act. One. -300. That's insane.
Sadly ncr carebears have won for the moment Nyan
Itis pretty insane considering rep will never regenerate, as you've said theivery is a dead profession at the present. guards and pe checks aside, as DR.Jo said reputation system destroys any theif from the start. It was said that theives shouldn't be able to run around ncr stealing from people all day, but what else do you expect a theif to do? ncr is the trade hub in 2238 and ofc theives will congregate there, it's the only logical place to be.
Lexx, you say that we will end up with big groups swarming people in ncr like before, when? even when steal system wasent nerfed i dont renember any really big bunch of theives hovering ncr, at most there were two three total at any given time and maybe only one of these was a pure 300% theif
There needs to be a way to regenerate reputation, even if its shoveling shit in that particular city for 5rep a pop with the speed shit respawns its going ot take a long time to gain back a single steals worth of -rep.
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Sadly ncr carebears have won for the moment Nyan
Reputation in NCR works like in all other guarded towns. There is no exception.
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Stealing might be nerfed beyond useless, but let it be that way until a working system is developed. Old stealing system was against all logic.
There's nothing wrong with stealing as long as nobody knows whos the thief. Thievery is sneaky job, not running from victim to victim trying over and over again to steal something without nobody being able to stop you because they didn't "notice".
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t: forgot to add, if that system would be added, id like it to stay from minus to 0, no +++ growing. as 0 is max limit to "per day growing" reputation.
reputation reputation, reputation, fix that and thief proffession will be alive again, whats the propblem with thives anyway? why they hate it? its a roleplay proffession just lije all others, some people have 200 bigguns they always win, why people with 300 steal are useless, what u want all to just choose combat skills and turn this game to a shootem up game, not fallout style, i hope the devs can fix the rep system so the game will be more fun to more people not just players with guns
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Stealing could be also connected with a)sneaking b)charisma. First one is obvious, the second one would work on npcs. You'd be able to talk to them to distract their attention and then steal their belongings. But stealing from other players MUST be resurrected. They will bawww, moan and whine - yes, but that's the best thing in this whole profession. It's war, some people fight, some are supportive and heal or create items and some should be some kind of spies who can eg steal enemies ammo and weapons and weaken them. I don't know about all the other thieves, but I don't do that to gain money, so only updating the game so we will be able to steal from lockers and npcs in towns will be stupid as hell, there will be no human interaction and roleplaying. It's like making a sanctuary 'here you go thieves, go and have fun while people will play everywhere else'. People who complain about thieves are rich high level players who want to show themselves in the cities and are stupid enough to carry everything with them.
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I think people resent thieves so much because there's no risk involved for them. They just make a guy, grind him up to get decent steal, drop all their gear in a tent and try their luck in various towns. Dying doesn't mean they lose anything, and if they succeed they just scurry back to their tent and switch characters.
Someone like dremor is a good example. He waits night and day at the exit of the NCR, he groups people without them noticing in an attempt to get to their tent, and if he gets noticed and killed - so what? He hasn't lost anything, he just heads back to the NCR and tries again.
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that's not really stealing. Anyone can do that
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that's not really stealing. Anyone can do that
The same applies to your kind of stealing. You drop your gear and start molesting people. If you die, you move town. If you succeed, you dump it and switch characters. Same principle. No real risk on your part.
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I dont. I main thief even if it's underpowered now. Don't have any other characters, all the items I steal I give to the poor or sell to redistribute goods.
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Player vs. Player stealing is good right now. I see no reason why it should be changed-- it will just annoy all other people once again. Also like it has been said already, it's a bit stupid if you noticed a thief near you but can't do anything, because your character or a guard didn't noticed the thief yet. What is needed is something else to do for thiefs, that doesn't need to involve stealing stuff from players as main job. For this we have plans on the desk aswell, but it has no high priority on the to-do list right now.
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I think people resent thieves so much because there's no risk involved for them. They just make a guy, grind him up to get decent steal, drop all their gear in a tent and try their luck in various towns. Dying doesn't mean they lose anything, and if they succeed they just scurry back to their tent and switch characters
They are risking their reputation. But other than that, it's quite riskless stuff-wise. Thieves should be like Aladin: agile dudes who try to avoid guards and steal what they can for living in the process. Should provide enough addrenaline for the thief-hunters and the thieves. How to make this happen in game is another story :D
Few wipes ago there was some tagged dude in hub, who hanged around the library/general store area, kept avoiding guards and player succesfully. I had some good times trying to hunt him down but got bored because he had so much hitpoints. Besides he couldn't have had anything worth taking anyway. Apart from the high hitpoints, that could be the thief-type we could try to create. Hell, why dont we add a perk that lets you see npc and player field of views and we got Aladin.
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Dear developers.
You should decide - make objects hard to steal OR make the stealing punishment harsh. It can't be the way it is now, and yes I mean player vs players stealing too. You say that someone will make great level and put everything into steal - that's the point, he deserves it, why do you think he does that?! If I didn't want to be the masterthief I would not put all my skillpoints in this tagged skill, nor would I take all the precious thief perks. I'm a 12 level 300% steal thief now with 10 agi etc and I can't steal a single gun. That would be ok if not the situation that every time I get -100 to -300 reputation (5 attempts and bye bye NCR) and we're talking about normal 10mm gun, not minigun or rocket launcher. Leveling this much was very hard, I mastered this skill yet it is completely useless. So now choose, would you kindly: It's hard as hell to steal anything even at 300% or you get better and better but when you fail sometime you lose this 100 rep. I think you don't know how fast this thing gathers according to the fact that stealing is the only thing we can do.
For the people who say that we go stealing naked etc. do some thief armors, thief gloves, invisibility cloaks, other items we can produce and we use to steal more efficient so that it would be the same as we have guns and ammo. I'm trying not to rage right now, but when I see my lvl 12 character can't do anything I feel powerless. I know you guys don't care for us, and shootan characters, famous people and nerfing is more fun and important, but I beg you, do something for us now so we have same chances and same fun while playing this game. Your sincere Nyan.
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I've said already that we have plans for stealing. With talking about talking about talking this will not be done faster. And: You can bet that we will not overhaul stealing in the next two days.
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I've read in another topic that there will be thief profession. I started thinking about it, and here are few ideas for items thief could possibly craft, or just some thief items. Remember dear reader those are just ideas, don't judge me~!
- Thief gloves - when equipped add x% to your steal, just like lockpick
- Thief silent-running shoes - decrease the chance of you being caught by guards while attempting to steal
- Steal-boy 3000 - shows the area of sight of all the people around you
- Stealpaks - syringe with chemical substances that paralyze the victim for x seconds. The person cannot move, take any actions or even talk/shout. Successful use of this item in towns is equal to your normal stealing chance.
- Other kind of chemical substances with various effects, also paralyzing grenades
- Poison needle - throwable item, which is also a melee weapon - poisons your enemies
- Poison bottles - ammo for poison needle (all the chemicals could be injected this way)
- Lockpicks and electro lockpicks - should be able to be crafted.
for greater fun, some of the ingredients used for crafting should be stealable in some towns/locations
if the graphics are the problem I could help creating them for you guys. viva la thieves~
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I do think the stealing animation needs to be gotten rid of, though. For success or failure. For failure, the intended target just gets a notification. Even bad thieves don't usually molest their target.
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I do think the stealing animation needs to be gotten rid of, though. For success or failure. For failure, the intended target just gets a notification. Even bad thieves don't usually molest their target.
Yes, I very much agree. Though it could be an exclusive feature of the thief profession.
Without animation one could actually fall for Nyan's "/e lick" trick, heheh...
I also like the idea with recovering reputation over time.
Finally, as much as I hate fixed prices on items, but since they're already there, we could use them to scale the reputation drop accordingly. Petty thieves would be tolerated in a town for longer.
rep_drop = item_value / 100
then, for each unsuccesful attempt, we would have:
-300 rep for 30000 caps
-200 rep for a plasma rifle
-80 for a super sledge
-7 rep for a leather jacket
-2 (1,8) rep for a 10mm pistol
if we would want to flatten it a bit:
rep_drop = item_value^(0,8) / 15
-255 rep for 30000 caps
-184 rep for a plasma rifle
-89 for a super sledge
-13 rep for a leather jacket
-5 rep for a 10mm pistol
Just examples. It's all a matter of what we want.
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Without animation one could actually fall for Nyan's "/e lick" trick, heheh...
shush! :3
Also I totally agree with you two guys. Lack of animation would be realistic now so the player doesn't know unless his character doesn't know. Also rep depending on the item value is great.
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Another few ideas for profession and generally thief:
When in crowded area thief should be harder to detect, I mean like in NCR when there are tons of people guards have smaller chances to actually see every single person, it's like a crowded day on a market or Japanese metro where you can be molested without even knowing it, because people touch you all the time.
and second thing an item craftable by thief profession: Disguise Kit. You can change your appearance for any other available in the game (maybe you have to tag it first somehow), also you can temporarily change your name or make it disappear to become just another gray person in the crowd. It's just a funny idea, I don't think it have any chances to appear in the game ;3
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When in crowded area thief should be harder to detect, I mean like in NCR when there are tons of people guards have smaller chances to actually see every single person, it's like a crowded day on a market or Japanese metro where you can be molested without even knowing it, because people touch you all the time.
Now it's starting to make sense.
and second thing an item craftable by thief profession: Disguise Kit. You can change your appearance for any other available in the game (maybe you have to tag it first somehow), also you can temporarily change your name or make it disappear to become just another gray person in the crowd. It's just a funny idea, I don't think it have any chances to appear in the game ;3
(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9417/26937767.jpg)
But yeh being known of being a thief is problematic. There should be some sort of perk to help with this. Maybe sneaking skill could be used to disguise the player so that he gets a fake name, but could be recognized too by players who had interaction with him. If some sort of "reputation" system was implemented, high reputation players would find it harder to disguise because everyone knows them.
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Since when being known as a thief is problematic? :3 People act stupid when they see you especially when they are enraged because of your deeds, they usually talk a lot and that's just another opportunity for you. I'm going to write my own thief guide soon, so stay tuned ;3
also - disguising would make it possible to enter towns where your reputation is under 1500 and normally people attack you. You could also disguise as npcs. All those items I have written here make the thief more of a ninja though.
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-1000 for stealing attempt, I'm 12 and what is this.
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a thief can have his fun but a bomber cant? theres only 1 thing that i can craft with demolition expert lvl 2 and that is a dynamite which is not that good. Also the 20 min replication time is shiettt...
bring some life to bombers of the wasteland ^^
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a thief can have his fun but a bomber cant? theres only 1 thing that i can craft with demolition expert lvl 2 and that is a dynamite which is not that good. Also the 20 min replication time is shiettt...
bring some life to bombers of the wasteland ^^
Im also waiting for demo expert 3, now with my demo-thief it's harder to make a living than any time before
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Ok, reactivatin' a good topic mate~
I came up with an idea during my shower how to make thievery playable and not overpowered.
Guards are not so omnipotent and don't see everything, just what happens nearby, let's say 18-20 hexes from them. Every time you get caught you get not so enormous amount of -rep. It should be something like 100 again - don't whine and listen - whenever you get caught there is a gray sign (thief) over your head. Guards can shout something like 'spy around here' or you know 'don't hit on us silly thief'. The sign over your head appears in this city for about a real life hour - you can die or whatever - it's still there because people remember you did something. When you enter town guards can say something 'This perky breasted thief again *sight*' BUT!! The gray sign doesn't allow other players to kill you. It's just a warning meaning that guards have and eye on you. Yet you didn't do much trouble and they don't want any bloody mess in their town. Now there are two options - whenever you are caught again while having a gray status it changes to red and you are free target practice. Second idea is that whenever you reach lets say -1000 karma with thievery in the said town you get perma red (thief) status over your head even if you die. Ofc after some time people forget about everything so you can reenter the town again.
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When you try to steal anything south of Reno and in VC. You get a huge penalty of reputation and are always cought, and if someone tries to grind a char to some high stealing level, he is left with 2-3 tires to steal something and has to move on. A char becomes useless for a number of days before the reputation drops to 0.
Suggestions:
-players outside the guards view can be stolen from easily (reduced possibility to get cought, now its about 95% for each first try you get a "!" mark)
This will make the players stay in the guards view. But since the guards are littering the streets, its only possiblwe if town will have at least a piece of ground not covered by guards.
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maybe make special npcs to steal shit from, junkies, skags and generic vilagers could have a bit of stuff on them (up to scoped hunting rifle), but it is hidden from view til you have a high enough steal skill level, and maybe allow a high steal skill affect your sneak in a positive way, since a good thief is not seen as easily with his stealing "blending in", like escaping from a town even if they have been caught by assuming someone elses "identity".
Spellcheck, lol, writing too quick...