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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Archvile on January 19, 2010, 03:37:56 pm
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I bundled some different ideas in this single thread because they all are related to each other. I know some of these suggestions were considered months ago, but as I still think they would make the game better, I bring them up again and also present some theoretical solutions to problems people fear they would cause.
1. Crippled body parts, poison level, radiation level stay after death
Death should never be considered an option by a player. And currently, death's healing properties give some incentive to die. Why look for doctor to heal your eyes or some rad-away to recover your stats when you can just die? Meanwhile, we've got a whole useless profession...
current cons: but greeferz will keep cripelin evrythin ther is to cripel! antidot?? cmonn! this game iz omgrpg not simcity! i dont wannuh waist my time lookin for som stoopid antidot lol
solution: a) making it impossible to cripple or score a critical on creatures that have 0 or less HP.
b) tapping out
On a side note, poison and radiation could use some improvements. Poison could cause more damage (or more quickly) and there should be much more ways to get radiated. But this is a whole new subject.
In case of radiation death, radiation should be lowered to almost-lethal level. Similarly with poison depending on how it would work in the future.
2. Looting unconscious
Make unconscious humanoids lootable. Maybe I just want to take someone's cigarettes and caps, but let them keep their leather jacket and Desert Eagle they played whole day to get. There should be a possibility to be a robber not a murderer. The victim could be just left in the wastes to recover or could be healed if the robber was a "nice guy".
current cons: greefurz wont have an insentiv to kill me and will keep me below zero all teh day!
solution: tapping out
3. Tapping out
The idea I got from playing RTCW back in the days.
When in unconscious state (caused by having 0 or less HP), player should be able to "tap out" (either by clicking on some new icon, or by pressing a key, or by typing in a command -- anyhow) that is to just die and wait for respawn forfeiting the chance to be healed. Technically it could work by self-inflicting 20 points of damage.
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Excellent.
I vote for "yes".
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I vote yes for the points 2 and 3.
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1 and 2 takes my voice , nice ideas !
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1. Crippled body parts, poison level, radiation level stay after death
[...]
This feature have been implemented for several week (maybe less... don't rembemer) before the wipe. And have been remove cause all low level character who have crippled legs are not able to escape random encounter.
Most of hem have not improve their outdoorsman skill and can't dodge random encounter... and cause of their crippled legs, they can't run away... and die.
So they respawn, try to go in some city... been trap in a random encounter on the way... and die
... and again... and again...
Maybe some NPC doctor on spawn map can solve this issue, but how paid for their service ?
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Nice.....i vote for that.....
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Pay must be binded with the character lvl.
5 caps for the 1 lvl
1k caps for 12 lvl
(its just an exapmle)
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Pay must be binded with the character lvl.
5 caps for the 1 lvl
1k caps for 12 lvl
(its just an exapmle)
Yeah! Go PVP and barter alts! You know, not everyone can get caps that easly.
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Number 1 was tried out before and there were A LOT of complaints, I don't think it's a good idea to go through that again. As for 2 and 3, I'm up to see how that would work.
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Pay must be binded with the character lvl.
5 caps for the 1 lvl
1k caps for 12 lvl
(its just an exapmle)
It means that players must have something like replication balance, so it starts to looks like TLA's hell
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I like 2 and 3.
Number 1 was really unpopular for a reason.
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1. Wow! Now that will be so awesome for people that have NOT tagged doctor skill to get anywhere from spawn with crippled leg espescially nowadays when most of encounterd NPC are running after you.
2. Most people loot everything they can from dead player. Not sure if this feature is worth implementing.
3. Tapping out is fine. Griefers will cry.
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1. Yes. It was there, it was nice, I want it back.
2. Hell yes. I could just put someone down, search him checking whether he's dangerous or not and then FA and let him go or finish him off. We did this with steal anyway from time to time, but it didn't guarantee success due to items in the active slots and having to pass a steal check if we wanted to loot.
3. That's nice. Would make the GMs job easy too - they wouldn't have to watch for abuse and could let the players decide whether they want to lie there hoping to be rescued or throw in the towel.
All in all, splendid ideas mate.
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This feature have been implemented for several week (maybe less... don't rembemer) before the wipe. And have been remove cause all low level character who have crippled legs are not able to escape random encounter.
Most of hem have not improve their outdoorsman skill and can't dodge random encounter... and cause of their crippled legs, they can't run away... and die.
Really? For the last two weeks I have played almost every day trying a few new chars and I have been crippled TWO times. Let alone that often I can travel for a minute or two not encountering anything.
Even if it happens so that you get an injury fighting with scorpions, even when the injury happens to be a leg, I still doubt that anyone would be so unlucky to not make it to town three times in a row. And all this was to happen on a daily basis.
It reminds me of when I played F2 on my old 486. The encounter rates somehow depended on the speed of computer. I was on my way from Den to Vault City for the first time. I had like two encounters for every square. Enteringing or leaving a map was so slow and loading a game after each death meant not less than 3 minutes of waiting. It took me a whole evening to make it to safeheaven of Modoc (what a nice surprise it was). Did I have fun? Hell yeah. And now that I hear all those whines...
But fine, I can understand that not everyone is so patient and it can be hard for new characters, especially for new players. But this isn't a reason to remove the whole feature and dumb the game down just like that. There are many ways to solve it:
1. chars with level <x get injuries healed automatically <facepalm>
2. make doctor timeout based on character level and greatly reduce it for the lowest levels
3. in every hospital put an NPC that offers to safely escort you to (the vicinity of) the nearest town (if you're (leg-)injured) (for low levels).
4. alter doctor skill to make it a bit easier for everyone
anything...
Finally, what every player can do: don't neglect your skills. Or do if you want to roleplay a wasteland-inept character.
1. Wow! Now that will be so awesome for people that have NOT tagged doctor skill to get anywhere from spawn with crippled leg espescially nowadays when most of encounterd NPC are running after you.
It's the exactly same argument as saying that enemies shouldn't be able hurt you too much or kill you because it will make the game too hard for anyone who hasn't tagged a combat skill.
I know it's just a game, it's not supposed to be 100% realistic, but if we've got this make-believe setting than why won't you just play along with it? This is wasteland, goddamn, everyone should know some elementary survival skills.
Most injuries can happen in PvP, which is pretty much voluntary. So if you suck at it then just live with the shame when rats eat you on your way from respawn.
2. Most people loot everything they can from dead player. Not sure if this feature is worth implementing.
Because it's easier to just "take all" with one click and then throw it away later. Doesn't matter since the victim probably isn't coming back, right? Some people don't do it because they aren't total assholes or just would like to roleplay someone who's not a total asshole. Robin Hood wouldn't murder you for a pack of smokes or whatever...
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Not sure now 100%, but if I remember correct, one of the biggest problem with perma-cripple was uber-unarmed characters who spawn camped respawn points and crippled as much people as possible. Also keep in mind, back then it was far more easier to cripple someone-- The cripple chance has now been reduced over the last time.
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Not sure now 100%, but if I remember correct, one of the biggest problem with perma-cripple was uber-unarmed characters who spawn camped respawn points and crippled as much people as possible.
That's not a problem. Just make fighting impossible in hospitals (really no reason to insist on allowing it in there, respawn points aren't ordinary locations).
If we once had working entrance timeout, it sure could be modified to work for that purpose in hospitals (lasting long, allowing non-hostile actions).
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@up
1.
It's the exactly same argument as saying that enemies shouldn't be able hurt you too much or kill you because it will make the game too hard for anyone who hasn't tagged a combat skill.
I don't think so... sistah! Combat is essential part of game. Well whatever: 9/10 PvP players got doctor tagged anyway. So what's the point of this? Just to kick in balls some unlucky new players?
@Nice_Boat
2. Hell yes. I could just put someone down, search him checking whether he's dangerous or not and then FA and let him go or finish him off. We did this with steal anyway from time to time, but it didn't guarantee success due to items in the active slots and having to pass a steal check if we wanted to loot.
Aren't you guys using big guns mostly? :)
This game needs some more info about which guns players are using: same sprite for lot of them and don't tell me that I need to take awareness to see diffrence between flamer and M60.
Scypior was saying something about 3D player model with attachable weapons etc. Till that time I would be happy to see simple text information when I look at player: what is he holding in hands and "secondary slot". Awareness still should say how much hit points one have and does he have his gun loaded etc...
2.
It's up to players to terrorize others well enough to make them drop part of their stuff. Getting players uncocious without killing them isnt that easy nowadays (unless you use weapon that makes low damage)
I would be for this feature if you could use special weapons: like tasers or cattleprods with effect to make players uncocious. It's some work for devs but if they would implement it then I am ok with that.
Thought there are more important things to do now and one would need to carefully think how to make tasers and cattleprods work so they won't get abused (oh, guy in combat armor and minigun! let's shoot him with taser and get his stuff!).
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I don't think so... sistah! Combat is essential part of game.
Survival in a hostile environment is essential part of the setting, which is essential part of the game (for some).
Well whatever: 9/10 PvP players got doctor tagged anyway. So what's the point of this? Just to kick in balls some unlucky new players?
Yesss, I have a secret agenda to make people suffer:
1. post a stupid suggestion
2. persuade devs to implement it
3. enjoy the feeling of power when hundreds of players from around the planet will have shorter life spans from all the stress and frustration caused by being unable to outrun rats in a computer game
Seriously, all I care about is to have a game that I will like. If I yawn indifferently everytime I die, I know I'm going to lose interest pretty soon (and I did stop playing for over three months). On the other hand if I know that I have a lot to lose by dying then every dangerous situation will cause nice feeling of excitement. That's why I want death to be inconvenient or items hard to craft. Easy game is a boring game. A game with rules that don't seem logical to me is stupid.
I agree that information about what weapon someone is holding should be available to anyone without Awareness.
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@up
Survival in a hostile environment is essential part of the setting, which is essential part of the game (for some).
What does "survive in hostile enviroment" mean when death is not permament? Nobody is afraid of death in game itself - they are only afraid of losing their equipment. On longer run this game have no goal. Only players find their own and try to reach them.
Anyway if you crippled limb is supposed to be penantly for death it isn't really something to be afraid of only to get irritaited by and that's what I want to point out.
Yesss, I have a secret agenda to make people suffer:
Good to know.
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What does "survive in hostile enviroment" mean when death is not permament? Nobody is afraid of death in game itself - they are only afraid of losing their equipment. On longer run this game have no goal. Only players find their own and try to reach them.
Anyway if you crippled limb is supposed to be penantly for death it isn't really something to be afraid of only to get irritaited by and that's what I want to point out.
For your information, I would welcome permanent death. But I can see how it might impede actual beta-testing and won't be implemented any time soon, so there's no point in advocating for it now. Maybe someday.
The question if one is either "afraid" of dying or losing items is just semantic. We mean the same thing. Dying is a setback. Setback is what people don't like. If they don't like it, they have an incentive to avoid it. If they try to avoid dying, the in-game world gains more credibility and therefore allows more profound, enjoyable experience.
Crippled limbs can in no way be a penalty for death. You get them crippled before or while you die and they just stay that way. If you don't die you have to heal them yourself or find someone to do it. Death is a death. Even if it's make-believe it should in no way help you with ANYTHING. You were injured - you are injured, you were poisoned - you are poisoned, you were radiated - you are radiated, you were addicted - you are addicted, you were tagged for some crime - you are tagged for some crime. That's how it should work. If there are any benefits from dying, death will be exploited -- resulting in bullshit. The only penalty for dying is losing items (which are way too easy to obtain) and being stranded without them with exactly the same problems you had before dying. It's the setback that will require you to put some effort to regain your previous status.
An example of bullshit mechanics:
I was once exploring caves near the Glow. It's quite far so I managed to use almost all ammo, not realizing I had just about dozen shots left. And then I got my leg crippled. Tough situation: I can't run from encounters and I have ammo left for just one fight at best. And there are ghoul crazies on the way. My first attemp at doctor skill failed, but the countdown was only 12 minutes back then so I thought, I'd give it a try and took a short brake. With a freak luck the second time was a success.
But I could as well go to the Glow drop my items in an obscure corner, wait to die, respawn healthy as a horse, run back (on the way picking up some more ammo from my tent), and easily escaping any encounters be back at the Glow, quickly get my stuff back, get out and continue to rock and roll. All in a matter of maybe 3 minutes. If a game allows something like that, it means its mechanics are broken. Of course one broken leg wouldn't make that much difference. But it would stall me for several minutes, maybe more if I were to die three times in a row when trying to leave the respawn point. If getting there back was to take me 20 minutes, maybe I'd reconsider and just risk travelling injured. That's why these small obstacles like permanent injuries, poison, radiation, weakened state have a purpose and aren't just a pointless nuisance.
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Permanent crippling is a terrible idea because of the low chance and insanely high cooldown for characters with low doctor.
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i agree, permanent crippling its a bad idea, but i like the 2 and 3.
for poison and radiation:
-poison: improve damage, remove poison when respawn
-radiation: remove only 30% of the current radiation level when respawn.
and a little suggestion: when respawn, make the weaken cooldown improve if the player has died witth cripled limbs, high poison lvl, etc
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i agree, permanent crippling its a bad idea, but i like the 2 and 3.
for poison and radiation:
-poison: improve damage, remove poison when respawn
-radiation: remove only 30% of the current radiation level when respawn.
and a little suggestion: when respawn, make the weaken cooldown improve if the player has died witth cripled limbs, high poison lvl, etc
a lot better than perma-crippling ;)
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Perma death is an incredibly stupid proposition for this game. You have a combat system designed for a completely different kind of game, lag issues, encounters you have no chance of surviving and a hostile player population. It would be an exercise in aggravation and only a masochist would enjoy it.
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Let's stop calling it perma-cripple, perma-poison or perma-radiation.
From now on, the common term is:
death-that-does-not-heal-you
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Let's stop calling it perma-cripple, perma-poison or perma-radiation.
From now on, the common term is:
death-that-does-not-heal-you
So any character that doesn't have doctor lvl 3 and at least 5 int will be unplayable.
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Why?
- You can talk to other players and ask them to use doctor skill on you.
- You can try it yourself.
- Hitpoints regenerate over time.
Not that I am pro-this idea, just sayin.
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Are you kidding me? Exactly what part of it will be unplayable? Is it unplayable now? Because only difference from now, concerning injuries, would be that every injury would have to be healed by SOMEBODY eventually. That's what the doctor skill is there for. If you don't want to specialize in doctor skill, you don't have to. Just like you don't have to specialize in armor crafting to have an armor. You can buy it. You can have somebody craft it for you. If you're a douche, you can craft it with your armorer alt. That's how specialization works. If you create a specialized build with low IN, don't expect it to be versatile. The price of mastery is being dependant on others (or your gay alts). The price of being self-sufficient is not achievieng a mastery. Deal with it, make your choice.
Seriously, people, come up with something more than just "it's a bad idea", "I don't like it", "new players", "it's just a game", "nah"...
The only valid argument so far, is the one with new characters not being able to get out of respawn. To which I pointed out it's pretty much exaggerated, but still proposed some example solutions. As for high level chars -- as I said before -- you make your choices. You can raise you doctor, you can raise outdoorsman (and only 100% is enough to avoid most encounters), or suffer the consequences of making a power build from time to time. Tell me I'm not making any sense.
What you seem to not realize is that once the doctor profession stops being useless there will be more doctor chars out there to help you. And it's not like the doctor skill is never to be tweaked ever again.
It's a shame that for a game which has an "F" for "fallout" in its title the threat of radiation poisoning is non-existant. One thing is that there are few sources of radiation (and original games are at a fault here too, ironically F3 is the best in this matter), but another thing is that even when you get radiated -- it simply doesn't matter! -- because before you manage to accumulate enough radiation to feel its effects, you will die and your rad count goes back to zero with a click of a finger. Meanwhile, rad-away and rad-x drugs are worthless pieces of trash. In a post-nuclear world.
Similarly with venom poisoning. Do you remeber agonizing Jarvis? Do you remember what a big problem radscorpions were for the people of Shady Sands? Their venom was so dangerous that only finding the antidote could be a turning point in that battle. And now? Meh...
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The problem is how easy it is to cripple someone compared to how much long it takes to uncripple. Crippling someone takes a matter of seconds and not necessarily a lot of skill, but to get uncrippled without a doctor and quite possibly no money is going to be a long, boring and shitty process. The impact on the victim is not proportional to the effort of the attacker. It just takes some bluesuit to critkick you in Reno and you've got to wander down to the NCR and just stand around saying 'NEED DOCTOR' for five minutes. I just don't see how it enhances the game.
Don't get me wrong, I would like to see death have more of an effect on characters. But the problem is that life is too cheap and people are too aggressive to make it work. If someone murdering you actually meant something, then I'd agree with it. But people are blasting each other like it's Quake out there. Killing a guy isn't your last resort, it's your first line of defense. If killing a guy had an effect on the murderer as well as the victim, I'd support something like this. I think the Beserker reputation might have a use here. Perhaps if you kill enough players unprovoked, you're labelled as the merciless bastard you are.
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Here's why it would be unplayable, every character would have to put points into doctor or end up being a huge pain in the ass to play. Let's say you are either low level or don't have doctor tagged and you get your leg crippled and die. If you fail your attempt with low skill its a 2 hour cooldown, you can't escape any encounter in either modes so chances are you'll die several times before you reach a town. Once you get there you have to rely on someone else with doctor to be standing around and be nice enough to heal you.
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The problem is how easy it is to cripple someone compared to how much long it takes to uncripple. Crippling someone takes a matter of seconds and not necessarily a lot of skill, but to get uncrippled without a doctor and quite possibly no money is going to be a long, boring and shitty process. The impact on the victim is not proportional to the effort of the attacker. It just takes some bluesuit to critkick you in Reno and you've got to wander down to the NCR and just stand around saying 'NEED DOCTOR' for five minutes.
"The problem is how easy it is to kill someone and take their items, compared to how much long it takes to craft them. Killing someone takes a matter of seconds and not necessarily a lot of skill, but to get items without required crafter alts and possibly no money or resources is going to be a long, boring and shitty process. The impact on the victim is not proportional to the effort of the attacker. It just takes some bluesuit to critkick you in Reno and you've got to wander down to a mining site and just stand around and swing a hammer every five minutes."
Apparently, it's not a problem with most people.
I would like to see death have more of an effect on characters. But the problem is that life is too cheap and people are too aggressive to make it work.
Ha! Life is cheap BECAUSE death is of little significance!
That's why I strive for even a bit more annoying death. That's why I would like to see permanent death. I bet that even just a 1% chance of permanently losing a chararacter would change most players' attitude. There would be less recklessness, less hostility, less 'zerking. Because life would have value. And just managing to remain alive would be a reward in itself.
people are blasting each other like it's Quake out there
And that's what most people, intentionally or not, try to make of this game. "Getting X should be easier, doing Y should take less time, remove Z because it's nothing but a nuisance." And the end-result will be, that nothing will eventually matter, because everything will be at hand. All there will be left of this game is a pew-pew clickfest.
P.S.
Here's why it would be unplayable, every character would have to put points into doctor or end up being a huge pain in the ass to play. Let's say you are either low level or don't have doctor tagged and you get your leg crippled and die. If you fail your attempt with low skill its a 2 hour cooldown, you can't escape any encounter in either modes so chances are you'll die several times before you reach a town. Once you get there you have to rely on someone else with doctor to be standing around and be nice enough to heal you.
I don't see that HUGE PAIN. I explained this already. What's more:
Respawn points don't have to be that far from towns as they are now.
I don't see any sense in random respawn point selection.
I think doctors should have an extra cooldown cutback, like -25% for every profession level, because it's their job to heal people.
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You have no idea what makes a good game. What you are describing would be about as fun to play as waiting in line at a government office. You can already lose hours worth of items with no warning, no one would play a game where you're perpetually limping half dead. Advocating permanent death makes me wonder if you are even serious as it would kill what little player base we have now.
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Ha! Life is cheap BECAUSE death is of little significance!
That's why I strive for even a bit more annoying death. That's why I would like to see permanent death. I bet that even just a 1% chance of permanently losing a chararacter would change most players' attitude. There would be less recklessness, less hostility, less 'zerking. Because life would have value. And just managing to remain alive would be a reward in itself.
And that's what most people, intentionally or not, try to make from this game. "Getting X should be easier, doing Y should take less time, remove Z because it's nothing but a nuisance." And the end-result will be, that nothing won't eventually matter, because everything will be at hand. All there will be left of this game is a pew-pew clickfest.
It's not death that's of little significance, it's the killing that is. You can butcher innocents all damn day long, and the world doesn't treat you any differently for it unless you're standing in front of them when you do it.
People in FOnline are pretty much cowards. They only fight when they're sure they can win. You use Awareness, check a guy's HP/what he's armed with and then either blow him to kingdom come or get the hell out of there. Not being able to see if your opponent is stronger or weaker will definitely make people less hostile..
And as for 'Making X' easier, the game gets too easy when you hit a certain point if anything. You've got your supply of gear in your undiscoverable base, dying isn't a problem as you just head back home and rearm yourself. Making them also have to ask their friends for surgery when they die isn't going to change that. Simply put, to players past a certain level, it is a pew-pew clickfest.
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Obviously, time spent for grinding for items is just a poor substitute for time spent for developing your char and interacting with others in a perma-death mode. But it's all there is to put at stake when there's no death. If you ever played Diablo 2 in hardcore mode, you'd know that it's much more rewarding. Or maybe you wouldn't. After all HC players always were a minority.
Anyway, I'm tired of this. I said enough already, made my point clear, and it's not my call to make.
You have no idea what makes a good game.
But I know what I like. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4oKXagF3IE)
//edited: merged posts
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(this one can be deleted)