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Other => Closed Beta => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Winter 2011/2012 => Topic started by: jacky on December 11, 2011, 09:35:03 pm
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weapons are unbalanced.
all brust mode bg are to powerful with +++brd, mostly they deal 100-130 damage in range from avenger against ba+toughnes
against ba++toughnest and psyho 70-90 in range
bazooka with ex rockets deal only 30-60 damage against ba
sniers are to weak. they will have oly 160-190hp with jet so they has no chance against 240-290hp bg with +++brd, same with ew characters.
i had to shoot at least 20times to critical hit someone in ca/ba and i had 25% (25-10=15%)
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i had to shoot at least 20times to critical hit someone in ca/ba and i had 25% (25-10=15%)
(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/6290/facevh.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/502/facevh.jpg/)
First of all , the critical chance shown in character screen is only chance for torso , even if you had 1 luck without any more critical perks you still have 39% chance to critically hit someone in eyes. Since you shot 20 times and got 1 critical i presume you shot in torso and was really unlucky and or you are just over exaggerating or you can't count properly.
So you are in no condition to make any statements about balance if you don't know the basic game mechanics.
Snipers will be alright , tested enough.
all brust mode bg are to powerful with +++brd, mostly they deal 100-130 damage in range from avenger against ba+toughnes
against ba++toughnest and psyho 70-90 in range
The damage is increased as well the hp pool , so what is your point ?
bazooka with ex rockets deal only 30-60 damage against ba
okay edit: Wtf ?
sniers are to weak. they will have oly 160-190hp with jet so they has no chance against 240-290hp bg with +++brd
Your personal opinion is surely no evidence of that.
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30-50damage from bazooka? it makes it usless. only 25%crit bazooka can make some damage 100-130.
25% bg with out spray and prey, i tested it for 20min on hinkley using avanger/bazooka so your point about aiming in the eyes is pointles.
+++brd bg with avenger can kill 1sniper with one good single non-crit shoot.
1guy with avenger can make more splash damage than guy with rocket launcher. now players can have max 290hp and to kill him you had to shoot him at least 6-7times with rocket launcher , so now one +++brd bg can easly kill two ++toughnes/psyho bg bazooka players. bazzoka was allways weak but now it is allmost usless.
"The damage is increased as well the hp pool , so what is your point ?"
my point is av is to powerful, it is about 20%better than lsw/mini.decrease av and increase bazooka damage. if u made tank char you still has no chance against +++brd bg with avanger. avanger will be killing mashine and line of 3 avanger can stop now rush of 5people. hp is incrased only for bg chars. i tried to make good sg sniper char (25%,better,rbte,sharpshooter,brof)and i can get only 160-190hp so sniper hp wont change after wipe. if you shoot 190hp sniper on jet u can deal him 140damage with silngle +++brd shoot and now you can easly make 12ap brof +++brd bg, so in max 35hex range after 1-2s sniper will be lead meat, and 250-290 bg can take 1-2shoot from sniper before he reach him, also now armors have -%crit modificators and perk right between the eyes inst to good.
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O.K, don't know if you know this but every weapon has it's own range. Rockets and snipers have a much further range which other weapons can't touch, so a BG build would have to move closer to other guy, at same time other guy moves further away.
Single shot;
Sniper rifle; AP: 6, Range: 50.
Bozar; AP: 7, Range: 50.
Laser rifle; AP: 5, Range: 45.
Rocket; AP: 7, Range: 40.
Burst;
Avenger; AP: 7, Range: 35. Rounds: 40
Assault rifle;AP: 6, Range: 35, Rounds: 12
LSW; AP: 7, Range: 35, Rounds: 10
M60; AP: 7, Range: 35, Rounds: 10
So now you have the facts you can make up your own mind
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i know range of all weapons, but no one is rushing line of snipers in open space. anyway if u ran 15hex sniper has no chance, and av has also splash damage if u are shooting someone in group. if you take perk that decrease your chance of crlipe your arm, sniper wont stop you. there are lot of anty crits perks now <man of steel, 2perks about cripling your limbs> and armors with negative % crit hit.
for example. +++brd bg is rushing 2snipers with sniper/assault rifles. they didnt knock him down or criple his eye/arm. he shoot in 2s 2 brust and kill 2 snipers at same time. my point is rush of 3av guys can wipe out 5-6players in 2s.
and avanger will be 30/burst, and brof isnt working with ew weapons and you can simply make tesla tank ++toughnes and psyho : normal resist - 4/20 > 9/50.
my point is bg with avanger is to powerful, bg with bazooka is to weak, snipers hp wont change.
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There is no point, jacky, we knew 6 months ago that snipers will suck after wipe, it's been said way to many times. Bg's always been overpowered except this wipe when things were how should they be, meaning snipers prevail in open space against bg's. Now bg era will be back so we will just have to accept it.
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Its epic when t888 assume you wrong, and blame you for that - all in few lines.
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i know they are overpowered but this time avanger is killing mashine. i tested it in hinkley and it can simply deal 100-130 in range against ba +toughness. and i know there will be a lot of rage "fucking avanger", fucking shity sg/ew/bazooka. but really, who will take now bazoka if smg can deal more damage ;] good luck with killing 290hp guy in ca mk2 using ex rockets. 25-50 per shoot. that is riddicilous compare to avanger power. mercs are fine now, no air strike from map and their number is decreased, but if u are going to give them bazooka well they are just walking meat. even 500hp muties are weak with rocket launchers, granades will be more powerful than rocket ;/
my idea is :
decrease -% crit hit from armors,
increase perk rbte >to decrease all %crit hit from helmet<
improve some perk only for sg/ew snipers to get more hp >like for example "sniper soul" +10-20hp and +20sg/ew%. req: crit chance 25% and pe 8-9.
that would make good balance between sniper-bg
and also making m60/lsw only tb weapon isnt good idea. it nagates idea of bg sneaker.
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i tested it in hinkley and it can simply deal 100-130 in range against ba +toughness.
Yeah it's really awesome against NPCs. Sadly players are kind of a bigger deal, as they often get up to 3 toughness. With 3 toughness the damage is lower than right now...
who will take now bazoka if smg can deal more damage ;] good luck with killing 290hp guy in ca mk2 using ex rockets. 25-50 per shoot.
Hint: use AP rocket on armored target, understand the rocket is more useful for it's splash and KD than for it's DPS.
Nah, the only problem I see right now are the livegiver that you have to take three times to have interest, and the BRoF not available for energy.
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i tested it against players:
-ba with jet
-ba
-ba +toughnes
-ba ++toughness
-ba ++toughness psyho
i shooted them in max range and from 1hex. i tested +++bg/ ++bg for crits/ bg crits with lsw/m60/mini/av/bazooka
as i told u i know ap rockets are better but not as is use to be but it doesnt change fact that ex rockets are pice of shit now.
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i know they are overpowered but this time avanger is killing mashine.
It's expensive, eats shitload of bullets, requires proper build to use (7 ST, which sniper needs that amount of ST?), it's hi-tech toy. What's wrong with making it also killing machine, not watergun, like it is in this era? If I may quote the classic, now avenger is fine as it is.
and also making m60/lsw only tb weapon isnt good idea. it nagates idea of bg sneaker.
Wait what? A sneaky-peaky ninja with gun larger than himself? What is this, some anime pew-pew game?
Anyway if we can't run with LSW/M60, make it at least worth having it, by damage boost for example. Or leave it as it is, there is many useless guns already, one or two less or more doesn't make a big difference :>
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str 7 so what? all you have to do now is make char with str 6 and take psyho. brd/toughnes doesnt req luck6 so u can set luck 1. but try to create good sniper with luck 10 and str 3 (weapon handling, jet<>buff) for sniper you have to spend at least luck 10 and str 3str and 3perks for more and bett crits, weapon handling, sharpshooter, rbte, and you have only 2perks left. maby 1lg and brof.
what damage boost? lsw-m60? avenger deals 15-25 more damage per burst than lsw. and av eats only 30 ammo now and it isnt expensive and hard to craft.
and if they want to add non running bg weapon they should add bozar with damage 50-50 and str7-8 and 9ap with aimed shoot.
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str 7 so what? all you have to do now is make char with str 6 and take psyho. brd/toughnes doesnt req luck6 so u can set luck 1. but try to create good sniper with luck 10 and str 3 (weapon handling, jet<>buff) for sniper you have to spend at least luck 10 and str 3str and 3perks for more and bett crits, weapon handling, sharpshooter, rbte, and you have only 2perks left. maby 1lg and brof.
It's called consequences of choices, my friend. You want to run around with minigun 250 HP tank-ape, you have to feed it with bazilion 5 mm rounds and pick tank perks. You want to sneak around with smart-ass sniper and pwn n00bz from bazilion hexes, put points in Luck to get reasonable critical chance and sniper perks.
And if you don't want any of these, make Mad Max Wannabe woodsman char and prepare for dying in combat from both above types :>
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Paper says to rock: " scissors are overpowered "
I just summed your way of logic in one sentence.
30-50damage from bazooka? it makes it usless. only 25%crit bazooka can make some damage 100-130.
It's only for explosive rockets and explosive rockets deal the same damage right now on 2238 , the fact is RL has wider splash damage without bullet spread damage reduction and has knockdown , the weapon excel in team fights not your imaginary 1 vs 1 fights furthermore there is more than one armor in the game.
+++brd bg with avenger can kill 1sniper with one good single non-crit shoot.
Take in mind avenger minigun will be a bitch to get after wipe , so you better test everything with an ordinary minigun.
1 guy with avenger can make more splash damage than guy with rocket launcher. now players can have max 290hp and to kill him you had to shoot him at least 6-7times with rocket launcher , so now one +++brd bg can easly kill two ++toughnes/psyho bg bazooka players. bazzoka was allways weak but now it is allmost usless.
Rocket launcher hasn't been changed at all , stop using explosive rockets and testing everything on BA. DING your wrong again.
bla bla bla more personal judgement , bla bla bla
i tried to make good sg sniper char(25%,better,rbte,sharpshooter,brof)and i can get only 160-190hp so sniper hp wont change after wipe. if you shoot 190hp sniper on jet u can deal him 140damage with silngle +++brd shoot and now you can easly make 12ap brof +++brd bg so in max 35hex range after 1-2s sniper will be lead meat
Nub , try to find a team and get some experience in team fights and you will be enlightened , it doesn't work that way.
and 250-290 bg can take 1-2shoot from sniper before he reach him, also now armors have -%crit modificators and perk right between the eyes inst to good.
Your personal opinion is surely no evidence of that.
my point is bg with avanger is to powerful, bg with bazooka is to weak, snipers hp wont change. sniper does one shot , when sniper runs away with brd +++ bg kills people in 1 second , make something go away , very weak while snipers die because bazoooka deal crap damage and brd+++ kills all in 2 seconds yes why sniper perk right eyes is bad and deals jet on 140 damage and is to OP , avenger +++ brd kill all in one shot when snupers can't shoot with sniper , bazooka is crap
When i read your posts it sounds like this , your sense of judgment is really bad , stop posting i warned you before.
Like no one agrees with you and you still can't shut up and accept that your wrong.
i know i have problems being polite , but fuck this thread is so stupid.
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i know it is consequence of making prof pvp build. but my point was that damge and hp are boosted but only for bg chars. snipers will stay as they are now, so it will be unbalanced. i can easly make 246hp +++brd, +toughnes, ++lg, quick req, brof build with 12ap and pe 8 on drugs (small frame, bone head) this build is killing mashine. i dont see point of making one ultimate weapon in game, only gauss can compare to bg with av now. we have a lot of intresting weapons which arent implemented, solar gun, pulse pistol <--it could be awesome for sneaker, bozar, pulse rifle, and my fav alien gun.
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t-888 i have more exp than you on tc so stop using this as argument. but is see conv with you has no sense because you can see only tip of your own nose, only you have right to say what is good and what is bad, well my friend u are just common player and stop acting like fucking prima donna. if you are telling me 1sniper can handle +++brd bg now you are wrong. snipers can handle bg but only if you are one of tttla zerling and all what you can do is rush da loot.
and i know av can be looted now only from enclave..i like this idea of making this rare weapon but it is still overpowered, i would like to see gatling gun with perk spray and prey with booseted damage than av as ultimate weapon.
rockets arent same now and in cbt. i know how many damage can deal normal rocket: 30-90, and in cbt only 30-50, and i know bg is good because of splash damage and kd but it is to weak now. what is splash of 30 damage on each player? nothing
and i like bg-s but now they are to strond compare to other classes
t-888 you can be polite to my dick, who isnt agree with me? hahaha t888 you dont have to post here if you are type of person "i know better because i know better"
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if you are telling me 1sniper can handle +++brd bg now you are wrong.
I remember a time where big gunner could make 3 burst at 120 damage in a row to sniper, at 35hex range, with 10luck, 10end and 250HP. Know what? Sniper survived and good snipers teams were still slaughtering big guns in open fields.
snipers can handle bg but only if you are one of tttla zerling and all what you can do is rush da loot.
Won't even comment a so pathetic sentence.
and i know av can be looted now only from enclave..i like this idea of making this rare weapon but it is still overpowered, i would like to see gatling gun with perk spray and prey with booseted damage than av as ultimate weapon.
Both will probably be great weapons. Not ultimate either.
rockets arent same now and in cbt. i know how many damage can deal normal rocket: 30-90, and in cbt only 30-50, and i know bg is good because of splash damage and kd but it is to weak now. what is splash of 30 damage on each player? nothing
Use AP rockets and then come back. 50 damage on 3 players + KD effect is more than viable.
and i like bg-s but now they are to strond compare to other classes
They are too strong only against energy, which sucks balls without BRoF.
t-888 you can be polite to my dick, who isnt agree with me? hahaha t888 you dont have to post here if you are type of person "i know better because i know better"
You are same type of person. More retarded though.
Conclusion: Go learn to play and then come back to testing.
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and i heard that from tttla ;D
hehehe no fucking way ;]
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t-888 i have more exp than you on tc so stop using this as argument. but is see conv with you has no sense because you can see only tip of your own nose, only you have right to say what is good and what is bad, well my friend u are just common player and stop acting like fucking prima donna. if you are telling me 1sniper can handle +++brd bg now you are wrong. snipers can handle bg but only if you are one of tttla zerling and all what you can do is rush da loot.
and i know av can be looted now only from enclave..i like this idea of making this rare weapon but it is still overpowered, i would like to see gatling gun with perk spray and prey with booseted damage than av as ultimate weapon.
rockets arent same now and in cbt. i know how many damage can deal normal rocket: 30-90, and in cbt only 30-50, and i know bg is good because of splash damage and kd but it is to weak now. what is splash of 30 damage on each player? nothing
and i like bg-s but now they are to strond compare to other classes
t-888 you can be polite to my dick, who isnt agree with me? hahaha t888 you dont have to post here if you are type of person "i know better because i know better"
First of all you don't know anything about me , with whom i play or how long and the raw amount of time played is not a factor how good you play or how precise your judgment of balance is , in this case it is horribly off the track.
The combat balance surely doesn't circle around that one build can be better than other in 1 vs 1 situations , you must think bigger , think about team fights. Of course big gunner has much advantages over a sniper in certain scenarios , but it doesn't mean it's unbalanced , they aside from each other with certain variables and utilities for combat purposes used effectively by major fighting parties in the wasteland.
t-888 you can be polite to my dick, who isnt agree with me?
Umm , no one agrees with you ...
and i heard that from tttla ;D
hehehe no fucking way ;]
So what he is still a reasonable person that is amazingly polite to you despite your stupid answers.
Conclusion: Go learn to play and then come back to testing.
This
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If there is one thing I've learned in two and a half years of playing FOnline is that you are NEVER right (no matter who you are) when you have a discussion with Crazy or T888. Arguments or examples don't work on them so stop trying, my suggestion for jacky is to chill, have a beer and have fun playing. This fight was lost before it even started.
Still, I'm considering changing my signature with this:
I remember a time where big gunner could make 3 burst at 120 damage in a row to sniper, at 35hex range, with 10luck, 10end and 250HP. Know what? Sniper survived and good snipers teams were still slaughtering big guns in open fields.
...it's just awesome. Good snipers teams never slaughtered good bg teams until this wipe. Bg's were very good at close range and at medium range. Also, higer HP, crazy damage (the damage was also constant, unlike snipers which needed bypass and crits), toughness, drugs (like psycho whitch made bg's/bursters into BOS paladins), fewer action points needed for shooting with the weapons that matter (sniper vs av, mini, rl) etc. All these are not my "opinions', there are facts. Don't get me wrong, I understood that I cannot stop the bg era, if players love so much their bg's it's probablly ok to return the "good times" but I am just intrigued when I read quotes like Crazy's and I can't help myself to answer. That sniper that took 3 bursts at 120 damage and survived must of been a hell of a guy and if he is the reason that snipers should be nerfed, I agree.
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I remember a time where big gunner could make 3 burst at 120 damage in a row to sniper, at 35hex range, with 10luck, 10end and 250HP. Know what? Sniper survived and good snipers teams were still slaughtering big guns in open fields.
You mean that season, where majority of players were BG ?
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You mean that season, where majority of players were BG ?
I remember it as the season where I saw most different builds in TC: thrower tank, thrower sneak, big guns burster, laser sniper, plasma tank and SG snipers. I especially remember rda guys dominating more than one time with full SG sniper team.
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I remember it as the season where I saw most different builds in TC: thrower tank, thrower sneak, big guns burster, laser sniper, plasma tank and SG snipers. I especially remember rda guys dominating more than one time with full SG sniper team.
Seems like we were playing different servers, because I dont remember any energy or throwing. On the RDA note, youre right, but it was only due to the fact that, like I said, majority of players were BG and they could squeeze the maximum of it by having superior tactics.
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If there is one thing I've learned in two and a half years of playing FOnline is that you are NEVER right (no matter who you are) when you have a discussion with Crazy or T888. Arguments or examples don't work on them so stop trying, my suggestion for jacky is to chill, have a beer and have fun playing. This fight was lost before it even started.
Why your personality should have any effect on my opinion ? One thing for sure , we don't start to argue if we don't have a damn good reason , it's why we don't start useless and stupid topics like this , defending them is like lying. When i give arguments and examples , they seem to be useless since many kids like jacky usually forget that those arguments are an answer for his , so they just keep talking rubbish in circles.
Good snipers teams never slaughtered good bg teams until this wipe. Bg's were very good at close range and at medium range. Also, higer HP, crazy damage (the damage was also constant, unlike snipers which needed bypass and crits), toughness, drugs
Big gunners this season are good at close range and medium , has reliable good , constant damage against fragile snipers , higher HP , toughness and big gunners can get more out of psycho then snipers , it's seems all advantages are in the hands of big gunners , even long ranged RL with AP rockets that can kill most snipers with 2 hits , like you and your friend jacky say the same thing will be after wipe ( mute taxi , somewhere seen section 8 most probably ).
But hell , in the end snipers still are powerful , so this nonsense about big gunners being the ultimate killing machine because they can shoot =random high damage= , big gunners have =random high health= and =random higher resistances= is not a fucking viable argument to any balance issues that are out of place , not well put , how to say it more intense - complete utter crap.
Snipers will do good after wipe , maybe worse than this season but enough for them to be used tactically as they are used this season , it's called BALANCE.
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Yea yea t888, i know than 1vs1 duel is different that tc fight and i am saying bg team is is overpowered again. After wipe Snipers can now fight in modoc and klamath. I also play in one of the best gang in fo so i know what i am saying. I like bgs and i am saying that after this wipe only bg will be stronger. Spiers will be just what they are now and ew will be weaker. Compare that with +40 hp and +3brd for bg and you will see my point. If now Well you are just "mr smartass" who know what is the best because he is smartass
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CBT BGs are nerfed to dust already, do not touch them anymore.
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only bazooka.
they should change lsw/m60 because now they are usless in rt. 35range and you are walking like mutant - v easy target for sniper sg/ew or bg with bazooka...;/
only non runnig weapon should be bozar with damage 40-50 and range 50. it requires 9ap for single shot so it should be v strong weapon. add bozars to enclave and we will have another good weapon in game, also gatling gun is one of the most hi tech weapon and it is worst than laser rifle ;/ give gatling perk spray and prey and some ew 25% crit char could use it in battle.
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If avenger is so overpowered what about making it walk like lsw?
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leave it just like it is now but increase snipers, improve bazooka and wipe this serv
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If avenger is so overpowered what about making it walk like lsw?
Minigun is the old avenger :<.
Also I think making SAWs slow down movement is like the best way to make minigun clearly better assault weapon, as it should be. I think they had 45 range in "original" (in really original Fallout there were no such thing), which they could perhaps get back now?
Gatling Laser (and also the rifle) suffered from singleplayer design. Armors have their defensive value set in way to give player edge. Supermutants, master or bandits were vulnerable to everything, player is vulnerable at the start of game, and later gains big resistances, but almost never have to fight anyone with them. That way enemies can have same weapons as player without it being as tight as in XCom for example.
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But the thing is, if minigun can run sg bursters will remain pointless apart from sneak p90 burster with silent death. If that build even proves to be viable.
What comes to lsw and m60 being forced to walk (and maybe miniguns), wouldn't it be better that instead of needing to equip and unequip every time they want to run it would be automatic? So when bg player chooses to run, he starts to run but when he stops, he loses 3 ap (1 if quick pockets, would make it actually viable choice) and there's this equip animation. But if he walked, there wouldn't be any delay animation or -aps.
Otherwise we're going to see player-made autoscripts for running bgs that won't be shared with everyone.
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what? -3ap at begin? this is insane! so now with out brof i had to spend 10ap for 1shot? good way of thinking, and to use one gun i have to take 1usless perk? just make lsw and m60 runable...problem solved
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what? -3ap at begin? this is insane! so now with out brof i had to spend 10ap for 1shot? good way of thinking, and to use one gun i have to take 1usless perk?
But it takes -3ap to equip the gun anyway after putting it away so you can run. No difference, you just don't need to perform the inventory actions manually.
just make lsw and m60 runable...problem solved
Then what's your solution to make sg burst viable?
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lsw/m60 was allways only for sneakers and for lsw critters. i dont see point of making 2 quite good bg guns piece of shit or tb weapon. improve sg..but sg weapons allways will be weaker than bg. you cant make bigger hole with magnum gun than with m2 browning
my idea..improve xl7e to 10bullets per burst and dealed damage, increase range 35-42.
sg have good assault but i dont know why devs make it piece of shit.
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If avenger is so overpowered what about making it walk like lsw?
Already suggested.
Combat
-Is more logical that person would be unable to run, while carryin a minigun, rather than light support weapon, these being light machine gun and all, not a super large gun. M60 on the other hand, is much larger weapon ,nearly on same scale as minigun may be, so it is fair enough that this would be walk limited.
It's fine with me , but the only thing i want to add the character can't run with minigun only if the minigun is in active handslot , otherwise it will be a stupid equip and re-equip play.
lsw/m60 was allways only for sneakers and for lsw critters
Not really , lsw does average damage without BRD perks so you can take other utilities by using that weapon , that way making different builds.
my idea..improve xl7e to 10bullets per burst and dealed damage, increase range 35-42.
sg have good assault but i dont know why devs make it piece of shit.
FNAL and XL7 are already boosted in CBT.
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t888 yes yes. you know the best. you should be dev or ultra super duper dev! what would we poor nubs do with out your wisdom? >facepalm< xl7e is booseted? to 20bullets in mag? and 8bullets per burst? you can shoot only 2.5bust from 1 mag. increase mag cap and damage and give us bac lsw and m60.
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lsw/m60 was allways only for sneakers and for lsw critters. i dont see point of making 2 quite good bg buns piece of shit or tb weapon. improve sg..but sg weapons allways will be weaker than bg. you cant make bigger hole with magnum gun than with m2 browning
Yes but sg can rationally be more agile. But how to be more agile when everyone runs equally fast and shoots equally fast? The game tries to compensate this by having sg to shoot with -1 ap faster and require less str to use. In exchange it has less range and does less damage making sg just plainly worse. One could say bg is also more expensive so it deserves to be better, but that's hardly the case when p90 and pancor are actually pretty hard to get in large ammounts. They can't even be farmed.
my idea..improve xl7e to 10bullets per burst and dealed damage, increase range 35-42.
sg have good assault but i dont know why devs make it piece of shit.
Yes you can up the damage and range but if you toggle those you will just get situations where sg is either better or worse than bg. 2 hard factors is just too little to have any other conclusion than better or worse and that's what's the problem with sg vs bg. Both are based on pure damage, so the one that does more damage is simply better. Sg tries to compensate with being more lightweight to use, but fails.
Why snipers and rockets will still be used despite the awesome damage output of miniguns is that they have other factors than just range and damage. Snipers have crit effects and rocket has knockback aoe. SG burst needs something similar to stand out.
FNAL and XL7 are already boosted in CBT.
And they still suck compared to minigun. One could say "you don't have to compare them to minigun" but then the answer is: yes I do because they are used in excactly the same way as minigun.
It's fine with me , but the only thing i want to add the character can't run with minigun only if the minigun is in active handslot , otherwise it will be a stupid equip and re-equip play.
That's why it'd help to have automatic unequip and equip when the gun is wielded.
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SG burst needs something similar to stand out.
<<<well sg req less str,ap and are cheaper..it isnt enought? sg have snipers and bg...? we had bozars but devs took it away ;/
bg guns are more heavy and they needed more ammo so it is additional bonus weight...well bg range is 30-40 and sg 40-50...so what you want p90 with damage of mini and it can shoot 2times quicker and it has faster animation
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t888 yes yes. you know the best. you should be dev or ultra super duper dev! what would we poor nubs do with out your wisdom? >facepalm< xl7e is booseted? to 20bullets in mag? and 8bullets per burst? you can shoot only 2.5bust from 1 mag. increase mag cap and damage and give us bac lsw and m60.
Listen kid , you might learn something.
This is reported by me , they have wrong values boosted in CBT and haven't been fixed yet.
FN_FAL burst 14-22 , single shot 19-26
FN_FAL HPFA burst 11-22 , single shot 22-30
XL70E3 burst 12-19 , single shot 18-29
So you have no right to judge how good they are if haven't got the chance to test them.
Why do people still participate in forum section if they clearly don't know what the fuck is going on ?
And they still suck compared to minigun. One could say "you don't have to compare them to minigun" but then the answer is: yes I do because they are used in excactly the same way as minigun.
That's why it'd help to have automatic unequip and equip when the gun is wielded.
If minigun would be walk only in active handslot there is no need for automatic anything.
So how do you know they will still suck ?
Previously sg rifles lacked only damage witch is boosted now , will be fixed. If minigun will be walk only , maybe sg will stand out as more versatile weapons with arguably good damage , as light assault rifles , easier to obtain , with less requirements for weapon management , that includes the -1 ap to burst and no need for brd to be efficient. Nothing is for sure , we just need to wait wipe and see how things go.
The fact that lsw has hardly lower requirements and less damage it was still widely used weapon , with no need for brd. So your arguments for damage being the main indicator how good the weapon is , is obsolete. hmm , but wait minigun has no range advantage over rifles , at least for the ordinary minigun , witch will be used more widely after wipe.
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So how do you know they will still suck ?
AR and p90 got buffed in current unwiped version and were they any better? BG still outdamaged them. Like I said: when you got two things that matter which are damage and range, you won't end up in balanced situation. The one that does more damage in the general fighting range 1-30 hex is simply better and there's no point to use the latter. It looks like fnfal and enfield were just brought to same level with AR and p90 and that level is still inferior to bg.
You still remember 30/08/2010 changelog? Here's part of it:
- Weapon changes:
* 10mm Pistol increased to 8-15 damage
* .223 Pistol increased to 25-30 damage
* Assault Rifle increased to 14-23 damage, increased to 12 shots per burst and magazine increased to hold the same number of bursts in normal and extended.
* 7.62mm Ammo increased to 12/10 damage mod
* 10mm JHP DR increased to +27
* FN FAL increased to 14-22 damage
* Combat Shotgun increased to 20-28 damage
* H&K CAWs increased to 6 shots per burst, magazine increased to 18
* Jackhammer increased to 20-31 damage, magazine increased to 15
* 10mm SMG increased to 8-15 damage
* p90c increased to 13-19 damage
* Tommy Gun increased to 12 shots per burst, magazine increased to 60
* Grease Gun increased to 12 shots per burst, magazine increased to 48
So as you can see, many sg burst weapons (not enfield or fnfal) got damage buff but all those guns are either completely rubbish or only somewhat useful in pvp.
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AR and p90 got buffed in current unwiped version and were they any better? BG still outdamaged them. Like I said: when you got two things that matter which are damage and range, you won't end up in balanced situation. The one that does more damage in the general fighting range 1-30 hex is simply better and there's no point to use the latter.
It looks like fnfal and enfield were just brought to same level with AR and p90 and that level is still inferior to bg.
So as you can see, many sg burst weapons (not enfield or fnfal) got damage buff but all those guns are either completely rubbish or only somewhat useful in pvp.
Yes they got damage buff that wasn't enough , now they are increasing the damage furthermore.
Read my previous post again , range and damage are not the only factors for how good the weapon can be , different weapons with lower requirements allows you to make builds with other utilities , just like the lsw allowed this season or p90 witch was used enough , maybe not in TC where RL clearly dominates , but fuck RL will always dominate. :)
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3866/riflebitch.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/205/riflebitch.jpg/)
If SG rifles will have somewhat decent damage , they may prove very viable combat characters , as i said lower requirements allow space for other utilities.
won't show any other builds , otherwise nubs will copy paste all.
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Read my previous post again , range and damage are not the only factors for how good the weapon can be , different weapons with lower requirements allows you to make builds with other utilities , just like the lsw allowed this season
Yeah but the requirement difference between minigun and lsw is a bit more steep than sg and bg.
LSW vs minigun tradeoff is 1str and 2-3 perks. Used to be also 5 points of luck, which is really something. I think the current nonwiped version is more balanced between mg and lsw than it is in cbt.
BG vs SG tradeoff is 1-3 STR and 1ap per shot. That's not really good tradeoff for the smaller damage, you can maybe squeeze one extra perk because not needing weapon handling and easier 2x burst but it simply isn't good enough.
While lsw can for example become crit or tank build with the perks slots it takes to make minigunner, sg just underperforms. p90 is the minigunner of sg and pancor is the lsw due to not needing brd. But avenger gets massive bonus from brd compared to p90, doesn't really help that p90 shoots faster. Lsw can onehex, has longer range and shoots better ammo than pancor. However since lsw can't run now, it might be balanced vs pancor. It's just minigun that could be breaking the balance.
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Yeah but the requirement difference between minigun and lsw is a bit more steep than sg and bg.
LSW vs minigun tradeoff is 1str and 2-3 perks. Used to be also 5 points of luck, which is really something. I think the current nonwiped version is more balanced between mg and lsw than it is in cbt.
If minigun will be walk only and lsw will be able to run , then i think it's a huge difference.
BG vs SG tradeoff is 1-3 STR and 1ap per shot. That's not really good tradeoff for the smaller damage, you can maybe squeeze one extra perk because not needing weapon handling and easier 2x burst but it simply isn't good enough.
You can squeeze in another perk + the -1 ap to shoot allows you to make 2x instant burst without the need of bonus rate of fire perk , so that is already 2 perks man + compared to it it's light + extra special points , easily obtainable , you will be able to run with it. Seems like very decent tradeoffs compared for the lowered damage , since you won't be able to go 1 hex with a minigun anymore.
Well easily obtainable and light weight are not the main indicators why the weapon is good , but still it does mean those weapons have some kind of advantage. For example you go in a team fight with two FN_FAL's , since their fucking easy to find and get , just switch weapon slots when you need to reload :) players do that with rocket launchers since their cheap and effective , but no one will bring two miniguns or m60/lsw in inventory , since their heavy (not all builds allow that)and much more expensive to loose.
While lsw can for example become crit or tank build with the perks slots it takes to make minigunner, sg just underperforms.
Try the new FCP , SG can as easily become a crit or a tank build. Under performs only in raw damage.
p90 is the minigunner of sg and pancor is the lsw due to not needing brd. But avenger gets massive bonus from brd compared to p90, doesn't really help that p90 shoots faster. Lsw can onehex, has longer range and shoots better ammo than pancor. However since lsw can't run now, it might be balanced vs pancor. It's just minigun that could be breaking the balance.
Well you know that p90 could be the ultimate weapon for sneakers , hard to say will it see the light at last. I was the first to make a p90/silent death build and tested the features to it's maximum potential. Pancor is just shit.
I just think rifles could compete and should with BG weapons next season , since SG gets beefed up in general again.
lsw and m60 won't stay walk only , i am sure it will be changed as it is in known issues thread reported as something to be fixed :)
so maybe we should make some suggestion in cbt forum section , to increase the range of SG rifles. Wouldn't you want those weapons to be viable in combat ? I am afraid that they will still be crap weapons because of rocket launcher superior range , i don't think minigun will be the problem :)
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Why BALANCE is always related with bg nerf? ;)
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Why BALANCE is always related with bg nerf? ;)
How to balance game weapons in few simple steps:
1) read some random whine on forum
2) nerf BG
3) done
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Btw...you can aim with sg so you can deal instant kill with mauser pistol and sometimes you can deal more damage than avanger so why nerf bg-s to make them only stationary weapon? bg allways was support gun with huge fire power. if you think assault should deal same damage as mini...well this is just sick 12-30 same bullets can deal same damage??? well tell me what hurt predator ? assault/huge indian knife/explisiv arrow/hoppa?...no it was minigun ;]
>>and t888 kiddo...you have 19y old so stop calling others kids because you are kid to me
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Only skimmed the posts, so these may have been covered.
I had in my mind that M60 would be walk only and the damage increased - to test the concept of a stronger weapon and no walk.
I still think the ultimate way to balance BG vs bursting smalls is to have some setup time. Say it takes 3 or 4 seconds standing still before a big gun can fire and no time for an assualt rifle. Then you can pop round a corner and burst with ARs but not with heavy machine guns ... but BG would ultimately be the better dps.
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but give us back lsw. make m60 stacionary heavy mashine gun with better damage and range 35-40 but make mini/av/rl/lsw runable ;]
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bg are nerfted allready, no one will use "walking" guns. it is death wish. snipers will eat all bgs with walking gun, shoot run back shoot run back shoot...allmost like killing s mutants. so what they have better damage if you cant reach anyone.
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Only skimmed the posts, so these may have been covered.
I had in my mind that M60 would be walk only and the damage increased - to test the concept of a stronger weapon and no walk.
I still think the ultimate way to balance BG vs bursting smalls is to have some setup time. Say it takes 3 or 4 seconds standing still before a big gun can fire and no time for an assualt rifle. Then you can pop round a corner and burst with ARs but not with heavy machine guns ... but BG would ultimately be the better dps.
Well for that, inability to run while in primary slot is good, increase maybe a bit the changing weapon animation time for the concerned weapons, and that's it.
Though, I am not quite sure it is a good idea. It make defending, camping rooms with big guns the easiest and most effective thing. At equal number or even slighty higher, that would mean you would have no way to prevent someone from camping succesfully with BG, because they will have either more DPS than you, or will shoot 3 seconds before you. And that would end up in campfest with the first one bored enough to loose starting the attack and getting killed.
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I still think the ultimate way to balance BG vs bursting smalls is to have some setup time. Say it takes 3 or 4 seconds standing still before a big gun can fire and no time for an assualt rifle. Then you can pop round a corner and burst with ARs but not with heavy machine guns ... but BG would ultimately be the better dps.
It's not a bad idea, but needs to be implemented properly. For example like this:
- when walking, no deployment time
- when standing still, no deployment time
- when running, you do get it
So you only get it after running and firing. The length could be as long as the common equip animation.
That would really be the something that sg burst needs to stand out from bg.
bg are nerfted allready, no one will use "walking" guns. it is death wish. snipers will eat all bgs with walking gun, shoot run back shoot run back shoot...allmost like killing s mutants. so what they have better damage if you cant reach anyone.
You don't have to walk all the time. You can run, "equip", fire. And the world isn't a place where snipers and bgs duel each other eternally.
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Say it takes 3 or 4 seconds standing still before a big gun can fire and no time for an assualt rifle. Then you can pop round a corner and burst with ARs but not with heavy machine guns ... but BG would ultimately be the better dps.
(http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/41607_105681049474258_3059937_n.jpg)
Hold on mister, you want actually implement a cooldown for BG shooting? Kind of pre-cooldown, to be precise?
I thought there is nothing to be nerfed in BG. I was mistaken.
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Gtfo with your memefaces
(http://www.myfacewhen.com/images/427.jpg)
You know what that cooldown is based on? That bg is heavy. Take a 20kg iron bar and wave it around. Then take a pen and do the same. Which one do you manage to point at things faster? That's what the deployment time is about: that sg is easier to raise and point than heavy bg. The str req just wasn't good enough way to represent that because str is so easy to bypass.
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You know, its Fonline. Not Operation Flashpoint 3.
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It's just a coincidence that the deployment time can be reasoned with realism. The actual reason is that sg needs to be more agile than bg. Bg having deployment time after running does just that. So we end up in a situation where sg is more agile and bg does more damage so what's the problem?
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So we end up in a situation where sg is more agile and bg does more damage so what's the problem?
I really want to see it some day.
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You can see it in the cbt.
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Processed and accepted , need wipe for testing. :)
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You can see it in the cbt.
I know, but CBT is not "regular" game, and here we can read "oh so strong bg nerf eet" ideas, which made me sad.
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Its nothing to do with nerfing bg, it would be about creating a distinct role for small gun bursting weapons.
Nor will this be done for the wipe, m60 non running is as far as the experiment will go for now (and the m60 needs a boost still)
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Damn...1rst non runable weapon...it is first step to req serv. Aby you are crying about sg. Bg will never be equal to bg...sg is for snipers and tb. Bg is for making damage breaking the line. Surf maby boost p90 and xl7e and leave bg alone. And boost gatling...Please add perk sap or -2to armor. Gatling is most ex weapon and totaly usless. Can you change it? Make it for ew brysters :) and think about bozar - heavy sniper
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Gatling should already be boosted to a powerful level on the cbt.
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but against ba/tesla it is usles, i know i am talking same thing but if ew wont be able to get brof, can you add armor piercing perk to gatling because all armors have good resistance against laser. boosting gatling to dangerous weapon will make big come back of tesla armors ;].
10mfc/brust range 30-35 and hit with +++brd angainst ba 70-90 against ma mk2 90-110...or something like that and we have another good weapon and new build ew BRD ;] or ew BRD crits ;] that will make good balance with sg/bg/ew. everyone will be happy because bg have avenger/bazooka ew - plasma/gatling sg - gauss/sniper/boosted xl7e/p90 no one will cry...avanger is to powerfull cry cry cry. because eweryone will have 1-2good guns from their clas splash/aimed
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Energy will be able to get brof, if Tesla is actually useful then good.
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Why people crying that Avenger too powerfull.
1st of all it need 40 5mm ammo for ONE burst.
Secondly It's too strong only if you get burst from 1hex. If 2 burst from range are not enough for death - it will newer been imbalanced weapon (like gauss etc.)
Thirdly snipers will have like 90 AC points so sniper with gauss will be strong enough.
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Why people crying that Avenger too powerfull.
Because they haven't tested it. I admit to have spoken stuff without proper knowledge here. After testing it, it's still pretty strong. Lookit here:
3x brd avenger vs plainBA (tested few weeks ago, don't ask if server is up)
121 105 72 118 115 118 107 119
Pretty solid hundred damage per ranged shot. So doubleburst against snipers will be 200 dmg.
1st of all it need 40 5mm ammo for ONE burst.
And gauss needs gauss ammo, still they are around.
Thirdly snipers will have like 90 AC points so sniper with gauss will be strong enough.
Even with 90 AC you're easy to hit with 225 BG. AC isn't going to be an issue, but the fact that avenger doubbleburst is actually quite fragile. He can dish out some good damage but he can't be a tank or very crit-resistant.
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Because they haven't tested it.
Yes, right but all will cry without any reason...
3x brd avenger vs plainBA (tested few weeks ago, don't ask if server is up)
121 105 72 118 115 118 107 119
Pretty solid hundred damage per ranged shot. So doubleburst against snipers will be 200 dmg.
That is not much damage for 3brd-build... and that's without Toughness ?
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Only skimmed the posts, so these may have been covered.
I had in my mind that M60 would be walk only and the damage increased - to test the concept of a stronger weapon and no walk.
I still think the ultimate way to balance BG vs bursting smalls is to have some setup time. Say it takes 3 or 4 seconds standing still before a big gun can fire and no time for an assualt rifle. Then you can pop round a corner and burst with ARs but not with heavy machine guns ... but BG would ultimately be the better dps.
This seems like a really fair reasonable way to balance the two a little bit.
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That is not much damage for 3brd-build... and that's without Toughness ?
No toughness. VS tank build avenger does like this:
3xbrd avunger vs tank: psycho 2x toughness BA
69 64 65 73 69 71 46 37
It's still most raw damage of all. Unless gatling laser does better, haven't tried yet.
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No toughness. VS tank build avenger does like this:
3xbrd avunger vs tank: psycho 2x toughness BA
69 64 65 73 69 71 46 37
Madness :)
I think need to add windicator-minigun in game but make it like gauss (less ammo nubmer and not-craftable gun )
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ye it would be nice
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... bg should do alot of damage.... why? ITS BIG GUNSS , MANY BULLETS COME OUT. tiny sniper should die if the bger gets in range.
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nah i want to kill and loot pvp ape with bg lvl3 with my ncr troll crafter...nerf bg to smg!!! or make them cool downs for shooting...at least -18ap so sg crafter can finally kill bg ;]
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BG should do much more damage than SMG yes, but SMG should be faster and more agile.
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speaking as a long time player bg's have always been overpowered and generally have always been on top in terms of gameplay, if anything it looks like its going to get worse for awhile and then maybe better. i think its more to the equivalent of nuclear bomb vs. paper. being killed in 1 shot by campers, pkr's and random douchebags is what was expected but not wanted. everyone can talk about how theyll be rare and yadda yadda, it wont stop the experience pk and tc gangs from farming the damn things and having a bunker full of them by the end of week 1. rarity is a moot point in this game when there is still rampant abuse.
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Only skimmed the posts, so these may have been covered.
I had in my mind that M60 would be walk only and the damage increased - to test the concept of a stronger weapon and no walk.
I still think the ultimate way to balance BG vs bursting smalls is to have some setup time. Say it takes 3 or 4 seconds standing still before a big gun can fire and no time for an assualt rifle. Then you can pop round a corner and burst with ARs but not with heavy machine guns ... but BG would ultimately be the better dps.
I cant believe it took 4 pages for this to be posted.
Now I didn't play cbt at all and have no idea about any changes, but it really sounds like something that could be implemented in a certain way.
My first guess would be:
Minigun forces you to walk so it has to be kept in 2nd slot. The 3ap from having to equip it would be too harsh. Also, the hit ratio in a 1hex burst should not be 100% of the burst but more like 60-80, would need some calculating to get a decent number there.
The Idea is that an avenger deals massive damage, but the enemy has a bit of time to react to it. In Reno or in the BH alleys it could mean life or death, especially with all the lagging folk from overseas.
Apart from that, an SG guy should not only be able to perfectly pop out from behing cover to instantly unleash his burst, but he can also kill minigunners in a 1hex battle.
Now you could say that even when walking, a minigunner could still walk one hex around the corner, shoot and walk back just as fast as if he ran. But if he gets hit by a rocket and is pushed out in the open, he loses valuable time that will most probably mean his death.
I think something along the line of that would create 2 types of bursters, offensive and defensive one. I don't mind if the damage of the avenger is buffed even more if you as a team can only afford to have one or two of them in your strategy as you need places to put them.
And one semi-related comment about the sg-bg issue, justifying the miniguns dominance through its higher maintenance cost (that no member of any major gang cared for anyway): Why not introduce xl70/g11 and just make it more expensive than avenger. There's no reason that bg's have to be mroe expensive than sg by definition, right?
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xl70 will come in, like the Gatling, Avenger and other highest tech things it will be available only through encounters.
I don't think we will have time to put the things needed to make the encounters sufficiently hard before the wipe, so I would imagine one of the first updates would be a small reworking of those higher tech encounters and the addition of features to make them harder to farm. (and hopefully a mass deletion of all the too-easily-gained items on the server at that point too! :D)
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By xl70 will come in, can we assume it's stats will be heavily modified considering as is (on the wiki at least) it's worse than the assault rifle in every category.
Edit: Ignore this, I looked at the Known Issues section and it seems single shot is 18-29, which seems pretty nice.
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By xl70 will come in, can we assume it's stats will be heavily modified considering as is (on the wiki at least) it's worse than the assault rifle in every category.
Edit: Ignore this, I looked at the Known Issues section and it seems single shot is 18-29, which seems pretty nice.
Yeah it received a major damage boost.